[opensuse] Re: Why is initrd needed...
Greg KH wrote:
On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 12:17:47AM -0800, Linda Walsh wrote:
So far no one is able to explain why it is needed other than It's a fad or it's cool..
Because the openSUSE kernel is not monolithic, it contains modules that need to be loaded before mounting the root disk. It also needs to do other things (decryption, disk checks, etc.)
If you have those options, you are free to use an initrd, but as pointed out -- OSus. doesn't support disk checks for XFS, so it's a moot point.
Yes, if you build your own kernels, and don't put /usr/ on a different partition, you can get away without a initrd, I do it all the time.
--- Before 12.2, it was ONLY a requirement to build your own kernel. Now, you have to move /usr... AND your /usr/Share partition -- that was meant to be architecture independent, shareable data, vs. /usr that was designed for usr level application, vs. /bin+sbin that contained a smaller number of programs that were considered your trusted computing base -- making a trusted system easier to verify. Adding /usr and /usr/share -- you can through those ideas out the window.
But for the distro, as shipped, it's not going to happen, sorry.
--- And this is why opensuse isn't open. These decisions are made by behind the scenes and are not open to discussion. As for not gonna happen...maybe not, but repair packages to undo your damage can be developed and widely distributed. The idea of fixing systemd to run in a container as a subprocess of init seems prudent as it seems like it is as invasive as a virus. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
[Could you PLEASE stop the silly crossposting and decide where you want to discuss this?] On Sat, 17 Nov 2012 06:32:49 -0800, Linda Walsh <suse@tlinx.org> wrote:
OSus. doesn't support disk checks for XFS, so it's a moot point.
And XFS is of cause the only file system out there? Just because you think it's the only viable one doesn't mean that everybody else agrees with you.
Adding /usr and /usr/share -- you can through those ideas out the |window.
There are a lot of things that seemed like a good idea in the past and then became obsolete.
And this is why opensuse isn't open. These decisions are made by behind the scenes and are not open to discussion.
They are not made behind the scenes and they aren't closed to discussion. It's mostly the way you tend to do discussions that'll keep many people from discussing with you.
As for not gonna happen...maybe not, but repair packages to undo your damage can be developed and widely distributed.
Feel free to do so. This is open software so there's nothing stopping you. Philipp -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 11/18/2012 8:53 AM, Philipp Thomas wrote:
And this is why opensuse isn't open. These decisions are made by behind the scenes and are not open to discussion.
They are not made behind the scenes and they aren't closed to discussion. It's mostly the way you tend to do discussions that'll keep many people from discussing with you.
Pot / Kettle. Linda has made more sense in this thread than any of the respondents. Stop taking it personally, and open your mind. -- _____________________________________ ---This space for rent--- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Philipp Thomas wrote:
[Could you PLEASE stop the silly crossposting and decide where you want to discuss this?]
On Sat, 17 Nov 2012 06:32:49 -0800, Linda Walsh <suse@tlinx.org> wrote:
OSus. doesn't support disk checks for XFS, so it's a moot point.
And XFS is of cause the only file system out there? Just because you think it's the only viable one doesn't mean that everybody else agrees with you.
??? I never said that. I'm using logic. Statement was made that initrd was needed to perform disk checks. That's a 'Universal' statement. (They didn't say "some"). Therefore, all I need to do to disprove it, is show 1 example where it is false and the reason is shot down. If they had said "some", I wouldn't have been able to so easily shoot it down, but if they said "some", then it can't be used to support the argument that initrd is *needed* so disk checks can be run. Did you understand that chain of reasoning. Many these days have problems with basic logic. Statement A says "need initrd"... Reason 1) Because 'disk check' is needed'. Disproval of Reason 1: This is shown to only be true in *some cases* so it can't be used to support the statement that initrd is "needed" -- only that it is needed in some, user chosen circumstances.
Adding /usr and /usr/share -- you can through those ideas out the |window.
There are a lot of things that seemed like a good idea in the past and then became obsolete.
I would like to see this -- the idea of moving things from /bin -> /usr/bin ... it was thought (though no one can give good reasons why) that this was a good idea. It's now proven not to be.
And this is why opensuse isn't open. These decisions are made by behind the scenes and are not open to discussion.
They are not made behind the scenes and they aren't closed to discussion. It's mostly the way you tend to do discussions that'll keep many people from discussing with you.
Yeah, I keep asking for evidence and reasons, and using logic, like above. People just hate that.
As for not gonna happen...maybe not, but repair packages to undo your damage can be developed and widely distributed.
Feel free to do so. This is open software so there's nothing stopping you.
I'm thinking about it -- one of the possibilities -- don't know how workable it would be .. using the mergefs, to place /usr/bin as the top writeable dir on top of /usr and /bin as top writeable dir on top of /usr/bin during package upgrade time. Things deleted out of /bin, will really be deleted out of /usr/bin, and things added to /usr/bin will really get added to /bin. When done installing, .. might keep the merge fs going, BUT, binaries will tend to collect in /bin (being on top of the dir-stack as the writable dir) in /usr/bin. Then when the system boots, one can add a shadow dir to one's root fs, that has links back to /bin for /usr/bin, or just mount a copy of /bin on /usr/bin. Then everything that is looking for things in /usr/bin will be fooled. Scripts that check for file existence during install of files in /bin and try to replace them with links will be acting on /usr/bin through the mergefs... Might be the easiest way -- but there's alot of gotcha's and if's there. More thorough, would be to skim through /bin for any links pointing to /usr/bin, and switch the links and their files -- same for /sbin, and then do a lib-dependency check and make sure those on on /lib64 (no link needed). Ultimately all the boot needed files could be back in /bin before the Dilbertian types realize what happened -- it will still boot off of /bin and mount /bin on /usr/bin (either as a complete replacement, or as a RO copy that's merged with the rest of the contents.).... That these same techniques could have been used to keep everything on bin in the first place and still create the appearance of all the bins in /usr/bin, is a matter of not having enough senior engineers reviewing the design. Anything other reason you think this "make work" was needed? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Mon, 19 Nov 2012 14:59:10 -0800, Linda Walsh <suse@tlinx.org> wrote:
Did you understand that chain of reasoning. Many these days have problems with basic logic.
Oh what a pleasent way to comunicate ...
Disproval of Reason 1: This is shown to only be true in *some cases* so it can't be used to support the statement that initrd is "needed"
And even if it is so, one case where it isn't needed doesn't invalidate the other ones.
I would like to see this -- the idea of moving things from /bin -> /usr/bin ... it was thought (though no one can give good reasons why) that this was a good idea.
The reasoning AFAIR was that many things needed for booting require binaries from /usr/bin (AFAIR udev was one such case) so why not get rid of /bin. It's now proven not to be.
Yeah, I keep asking for evidence and reasons, and using logic,[D like above. People just hate that.
Seems like you really are blind on that eye and really can't see that that's not the problem. Philipp -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Philipp Thomas wrote:
On Mon, 19 Nov 2012 14:59:10 -0800, Linda Walsh <suse@tlinx.org> wrote:
Did you understand that chain of reasoning. Many these days have problems with basic logic.
Oh what a pleasent way to comunicate ...
Disproval of Reason 1: This is shown to only be true in *some cases* so it can't be used to support the statement that initrd is "needed"
And even if it is so, one case where it isn't needed doesn't invalidate the other ones.
I would like to see this -- the idea of moving things from /bin -> /usr/bin ... it was thought (though no one can give good reasons why) that this was a good idea.
The reasoning AFAIR was that many things needed for booting require binaries from /usr/bin (AFAIR udev was one such case) so why not get rid of /bin.
It's now proven not to be.
Yeah, I keep asking for evidence and reasons, and using logic,[D like above. People just hate that.
Seems like you really are blind on that eye and really can't see that that's not the problem.
The only blindness involved in what Linda is talking about is the utterly retarded and ill-conceived idea to move critical executables from /bin to /user/bin. And if the person who actually pushed that move through is also on Microsoft's payroll in some way or another -- it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest.
Philipp
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participants (4)
-
Dirk Gently -
John Andersen -
Linda Walsh -
Philipp Thomas