On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 06:01:37PM -0500, Greg Freemyer wrote:

On Tue, Feb 21, 2012 at 11:47 AM, Ken Schneider

<snip> > > PLEASE keep replies to the list. And no, using gmail is *not* an excuse. > > Why the frack people cannot understand that using the list automatically > sends a copy to the list members and you have to be a list member to post to > the list.

I'm on a dozen plus lists. Several are mandatory reply all (lkml and its siblings).

Some are reply-all desired (opensuse-kernel, opensuse-project, and few more in this family.) Mostly these are ones where the serious developers hang out. They like reply-all for reasons I won't go into.

It doesn't matter at all. What matters is communication and cooperation.

Ken, please be this nice and press one more time the del key. We're all here to communicate and not to tell the other how the rules are. Please, please be this relaxed.

I'm sure even openSUSE and Samba will at some point in time operate their mailing lists in a more relaxed manner.

No, I've not yet smoked anything. :)

Lars

On Tue, 28 Feb 2012 00:37:11 +0100 "Carlos E. R." robin.listas@telefonica.net wrote:

Those that care, you can simply use your mail client filtering facility to remove those posts elsewhere. As I do.

There is not so many mails that come as duplicate to justify thinking about another filter rule, or write email to the list. That are mainly answers to me from people that are subscribed to numerous mail lists with different rules, just as Greg described, and which are not that numerous that using Del key becomes cumbersome.

Also, it is not worth to make "friends" with list or private warnings just to avoid few presses on Del. List warning will upset about 1600 people + 1 special :)

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On 2012-02-28 05:06, Ken Schneider - openSUSE wrote:

Waa, waa, waa. You have been on *this* list long enough to know the difference.

Yes, we have. Tolerance is expected here. YOU should know.

- -- Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar)

Am Dienstag, 28. Februar 2012, 05:58:31 schrieb Carlos E. R.:

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On 2012-02-28 05:06, Ken Schneider - openSUSE wrote:

...

Waa, waa, waa. You have been on *this* list long enough to know the difference.

Yes, we have. Tolerance is expected here. YOU should know.

Tolerance, the usual killer argument.

Tolerance in only one direction? Or why do you not tolerate the netiquette on this list or his point of view.

Sven

On 2/27/2012 6:01 PM, Greg Freemyer wrote:

On Tue, Feb 21, 2012 at 11:47 AM, Ken Schneider

<snip> > > > PLEASE keep replies to the list. And no, using gmail is *not* an excuse. > > Why the frack people cannot understand that using the list automatically > sends a copy to the list members and you have to be a list member to post to > the list. > > > -- > Ken Schneider > SuSe since Version 5.2, June 1998

Ken,

I'm on a dozen plus lists. Several are mandatory reply all (lkml and its siblings).

Some are reply-all desired (opensuse-kernel, opensuse-project, and few more in this family.) Mostly these are ones where the serious developers hang out. They like reply-all for reasons I won't go into.

Most lists are indifferent.

And then there is opensuse@opensuse.org. It's netiquette here that it be "reply to list" only.

I've for years tried to remember that it is special, but at this point I'm no longer willing to try. So you have 2 choices.

1. Accept I'm a pain in your behind and get past it.

2. Ask me to blackball your posts so I won't answer them again.

You'll probably want to blacklist me in turn so you don't waste energy answering some question of mine.

==> others

I know Ken's not the only one who dislikes it when people reply-to-all. Feel free to ask me to blackball your posts from my inbox as well.

Greg

But he's right.

1) We're all already on the list. It's annoying and stupid to receive two copies of things.

2) It's annoying to possibly reply to the wrong copy.

3) It fills up inboxes on mobile devices and crapola web mail interfaces that we sometimes have to use in between access to fully nice configured mail clients with 57 mail rules to move hundreds of incoming mails per day from many lists and various automated admin messages from servers and daemons and web sites into manageable folders.

4) And as you just admitted, the stated nettiquet here is even officially reply-list.

5) All this is bad enough when one or a few people ignore it. If everyone did it it would be 300 times worse.

You telling everyone else on the list to get over it and accept that you will knowingly ignore the lists protocols does not seem like the correct outcome.

Thank you for your inconsideration. May we all refrain from returning the favor.

For instance, to send this reply, I pressed "reply to list" button in my mail client. Were I not using a full mail client that had a nice convenient reply-to-list button, I'd simply have manually removed the "To: Greg Freemyer" line that my android or webmail client might have added. It's just common courtesy. It shows I care the teeniest bit about your time and your inbox and your net connection and the list servers net connection and workload. It's only a tiny thing, that one extra message, but see what happens is, If I do this every time instead of just this one time, and if everyone else does it also instead of just me, it makes a big difference. And if no one does it, ever, that also makes a big difference. I learned this "everyone has to do their little part to make the whole come out better" in kindergarden.

On 2/28/2012 3:16 AM, Sven Burmeister wrote:

Am Dienstag, 28. Februar 2012, 05:58:31 schrieb Carlos E. R.:

...

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On 2012-02-28 05:06, Ken Schneider - openSUSE wrote:

...

Waa, waa, waa. You have been on *this* list long enough to know the difference.

Yes, we have. Tolerance is expected here. YOU should know.

Tolerance, the usual killer argument.

Tolerance in only one direction? Or why do you not tolerate the netiquette on this list or his point of view.

Sven

Like the religious idiots in the U.S. these days essentially crying that being forced to allow others their religious freedom violates _their_ religious freedom.

Tolerance doesn't include tolerance for intolerance. Consideration doesn't include tolerance for inconsideration.

Tolerance means I normally do in fact simply delete the extra mails without saying anything.

But that doesn't go as far allowing the perpetrator(s) to try to claim that they're actually in the right and everyone else should get over it.

That right there is EXACTLY why people should be a bit less "tolerant". Because as Greg just demonstrated, if you don't, even an otherwise pretty knowledgeable and helpful guy like Greg will start to think he's not actually doing anything wrong since not enough, or enough of the right people, tell him otherwise because we're all too good at being "tolerant".

On 28/02/12 16:11, Brian K. White wrote:

On 2/27/2012 6:01 PM, Greg Freemyer wrote:

...

On Tue, Feb 21, 2012 at 11:47 AM, Ken Schneider

<snip> > > > PLEASE keep replies to the list. And no, using gmail is *not* an excuse. > > Why the frack people cannot understand that using the list automatically > sends a copy to the list members and you have to be a list member to > post to > the list. > > > -- > Ken Schneider > SuSe since Version 5.2, June 1998

Ken,

I'm on a dozen plus lists. Several are mandatory reply all (lkml and its siblings).

Some are reply-all desired (opensuse-kernel, opensuse-project, and few more in this family.) Mostly these are ones where the serious developers hang out. They like reply-all for reasons I won't go into.

Most lists are indifferent.

And then there is opensuse@opensuse.org. It's netiquette here that it be "reply to list" only.

I've for years tried to remember that it is special, but at this point I'm no longer willing to try. So you have 2 choices.

1. Accept I'm a pain in your behind and get past it.

2. Ask me to blackball your posts so I won't answer them again.

You'll probably want to blacklist me in turn so you don't waste energy answering some question of mine.

==> others

I know Ken's not the only one who dislikes it when people reply-to-all. Feel free to ask me to blackball your posts from my inbox as well.

Greg

But he's right.

1. We're all already on the list. It's annoying and stupid to receive

two copies of things.

2. It's annoying to possibly reply to the wrong copy.

3. It fills up inboxes on mobile devices and crapola web mail interfaces

that we sometimes have to use in between access to fully nice configured mail clients with 57 mail rules to move hundreds of incoming mails per day from many lists and various automated admin messages from servers and daemons and web sites into manageable folders.

4. And as you just admitted, the stated nettiquet here is even

officially reply-list.

5. All this is bad enough when one or a few people ignore it. If

everyone did it it would be 300 times worse.

You telling everyone else on the list to get over it and accept that you will knowingly ignore the lists protocols does not seem like the correct outcome.

Thank you for your inconsideration. May we all refrain from returning the favor.

For instance, to send this reply, I pressed "reply to list" button in my mail client. Were I not using a full mail client that had a nice convenient reply-to-list button, I'd simply have manually removed the "To: Greg Freemyer" line that my android or webmail client might have added. It's just common courtesy. It shows I care the teeniest bit about your time and your inbox and your net connection and the list servers net connection and workload. It's only a tiny thing, that one extra message, but see what happens is, If I do this every time instead of just this one time, and if everyone else does it also instead of just me, it makes a big difference. And if no one does it, ever, that also makes a big difference. I learned this "everyone has to do their little part to make the whole come out better" in kindergarden.

I think Postel's Law is a good guide on how to behave on Usenet and in mailing lists.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon_Postel#Postel.27s_Law and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robustness_principle

"Be liberal in what you accept, and conservative in what you send."

This fits with Brian's comments about making a little effort to make life easier for your recipient.

Bob

On 2/28/2012 11:27 AM, Greg Freemyer wrote:

On Tue, Feb 28, 2012 at 11:11 AM, Brian K. Whitebrian@aljex.com wrote:

...

On 2/27/2012 6:01 PM, Greg Freemyer wrote:

...

On Tue, Feb 21, 2012 at 11:47 AM, Ken Schneider

<snip> > > > > PLEASE keep replies to the list. And no, using gmail is *not* an excuse. > > Why the frack people cannot understand that using the list automatically > sends a copy to the list members and you have to be a list member to post > to > the list. > > > -- > Ken Schneider > SuSe since Version 5.2, June 1998

Ken,

I'm on a dozen plus lists. Several are mandatory reply all (lkml and its siblings).

Some are reply-all desired (opensuse-kernel, opensuse-project, and few more in this family.) Mostly these are ones where the serious developers hang out. They like reply-all for reasons I won't go into.

Most lists are indifferent.

And then there is opensuse@opensuse.org. It's netiquette here that it be "reply to list" only.

I've for years tried to remember that it is special, but at this point I'm no longer willing to try. So you have 2 choices.

1. Accept I'm a pain in your behind and get past it.

2. Ask me to blackball your posts so I won't answer them again.

You'll probably want to blacklist me in turn so you don't waste energy answering some question of mine.

==> others

I know Ken's not the only one who dislikes it when people reply-to-all. Feel free to ask me to blackball your posts from my inbox as well.

Greg

But he's right.

1. We're all already on the list. It's annoying and stupid to receive two

copies of things.

2. It's annoying to possibly reply to the wrong copy.

3. It fills up inboxes on mobile devices and crapola web mail interfaces

that we sometimes have to use in between access to fully nice configured mail clients with 57 mail rules to move hundreds of incoming mails per day from many lists and various automated admin messages from servers and daemons and web sites into manageable folders.

4. And as you just admitted, the stated nettiquet here is even officially

reply-list.

5. All this is bad enough when one or a few people ignore it. If everyone

did it it would be 300 times worse.

You telling everyone else on the list to get over it and accept that you will knowingly ignore the lists protocols does not seem like the correct outcome.

Thank you for your inconsideration. May we all refrain from returning the favor.

For instance, to send this reply, I pressed "reply to list" button in my mail client. Were I not using a full mail client that had a nice convenient reply-to-list button, I'd simply have manually removed the "To: Greg Freemyer" line that my android or webmail client might have added. It's just common courtesy. It shows I care the teeniest bit about your time and your inbox and your net connection and the list servers net connection and workload. It's only a tiny thing, that one extra message, but see what happens is, If I do this every time instead of just this one time, and if everyone else does it also instead of just me, it makes a big difference. And if no one does it, ever, that also makes a big difference. I learned this "everyone has to do their little part to make the whole come out better" in kindergarden.

-- bkw

Brian,

I'm not arguing that the netiquette be changed. I am saying in general I choose to no longer follow that aspect of it. And any that want to may ask me to blacklist their postings so I won't offend them by doing a reply all that includes them.

FYI: I see you on other opensuse lists like -project, -factory, etc. At least some of them are "open" to non-subscribers. Thus if a non-subscriber posts they will only see the answer if reply-all is used. That is done because opensuse has 100+ lists. Having many of the specialized lists like -packaging, -kernel, etc. open allows anyone in the community to post to them and get answers without having to be subscribed to dozens of lists.

That is the model LKML has used for at least a decade, so many of the core developers use it automatically.

Does anyone but Henne even know which opensuse lists are open and which aren't? Do you take care to reply-all on the open lists, and only reply-to-list on the closed ones. Not doing a reply all on the open lists is more than inconsiderate, it causes those lists to not actually work the way they are designed.

Greg

I always reply to wherever I received something from with very very few exceptions, namely when the sender made a mistake and sent to me directly when they clearly intended it to go to a list.

If I receive something from a list I reply to that list and am only interested in dealing with that conversation via the list, because I specifically want the entire conversation to happen in public and be archived.

Direct personal emails are reserved for personal friends and customers that are paying for the privilege. I'll spend time for free on mail lists because I see that as a worthy investment in the community. I'll answer questions that take hours to develop and test for free on a list because then it's documented in public and archived, and that time I spent isn't just going to one person who is neither my personal friend nor a customer who paid me for it. It's public documentation and reference which is useful to me in the future and useful to everyone else now and in the future.

If someone want's to participate on those terms, well that's great. But if someone wants to cash in on the goods without playing by the same rules as the people _helping them out for free_ well that's just too bad. It's kind of like the gpl in a way. You don't have to use gpl software, but if you do, you have to play by the rules that says you can't just take the goods in one direction to yourself, you have to give back and give forward the same stuff to everyone else. If you don't like it or don't understand why that rule is critical, then by all means, don't play by it, and, don't use any gpl software.

On 2012/02/28 11:11 (GMT-0500) Brian K. White composed:

4. And as you just admitted, the stated nettiquet here is even

officially reply-list.

It may be stated such, but actions speak a lot louder than words here. The default action from an intuitive response reading a typical topical post and wanting to post a reply is to reply to the sender. But because our list admins adhere strictly to an RFC that is counter to intuitive action, many replies don't go where they are intended. What's probably worse, is it leads to repeated threads like this routinely polluting the list and the archives.

This is a public discussion list, not a public questions/private replies list. As such the only logical default response is reply to list, since without the list we wouldn't be getting anything - the *list* is the sender, not the post author.

Regardless how many URLS strictness adherents submit claiming munging is harmful, how many demands they make that subscribers adopt or complaints they make that subscribers don't adopt "competent" email clients, and how much they repeat their mantras, what's more harmful is the noise, broken threads, and delayed or lost responses that reply-to-author by default policy causes.

Munging is useful, and more appropriate here than the noisy, inefficient, long-standing, current configuration, something most of the biggest most well known list admins figured out years ago.

http://marc.merlins.org/netrants/reply-to-useful.html

On 28.02.2012 18:56, Greg Freemyer wrote:

All the communications stay in the public record, but if you have an open list such as opensuse-packaging (I believe) anyone can post there and get public help without have to be subscribed.

opensuse-packaging is subscriber-only, but just think about news@opensuse.org. Only the news team is subscribed to it, that means:

* Everyone can post to it, if you post, the news-team get a mail * If I reply to news@o.o, you won't get it, and my mail is only delivered to the news team. * If I reply to *all* even the non-subscriber will get my mail.

to: Joe User juser@jusersoft.net cc: news@opensuse.org cc: opensuse-marketing@opensuse.org

instead of:

to: news@opensuse.org

that's why *I* prefer the LKML-scheme. If others want to handle it in an other way, okay, that's *their* choice.

On 2012/02/28 19:34 (GMT+0100) Kim Leyendecker composed:

Felix Miata wrote:

...

This is a public discussion list, not a public questions/private replies list. As such the only logical default response is reply to list, since without the list we wouldn't be getting anything - the *list* is the sender, not the post author.

Wrong, the author is the sender, the list is just the part of the sending process, that will spread the mail to the subscribers.

You're entitled to your opinion. Without the list, I get nothing, because the list published/sent me what some other subscriber authored. How do I know this? Besides seeing it in the headers, because what the author wrote has the following appended:

To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

If I write a comment on a news paper article, *I* send it to the news paper company, they print it in their next edition and spread it to their subscribers. But ***I*** am still the sender ;-)

Nope. You're still the author, and the newspaper is still the sender/publisher.

On 2012/02/28 20:15 (GMT+0100) Kim Leyendecker composed:

Felix Miata wrote:

...

...

If I write a comment on a news paper article, *I* send it to the news paper company, they print it in their next edition and spread it to their subscribers. But ***I*** am still the sender ;-)

...

Nope. You're still the author, and the newspaper is still the sender/publisher.

According to this, the postmen would send 100% of the world's post, because they deliver it to the target person. Furthermore, 100% of the post would be controlled by postmen, that means, our whole mailsystem doesn't make sense at all.

The sender designates the destination addressee and address on the object to be sent. Postmen don't do that with normal mail, while magazines, newspapers and listservs do. List mail authors don't address their posts to me, they address their posts to the listserv. The listserv upon receipt puts my address on what I ultimately receive because it is what sends (publishes) it to me (subscribers), not the author (who normally has not the addresses of all list subscribers).