On Mon, 2012-05-28 at 23:06 +0200, Lars Müller wrote:

On Mon, May 28, 2012 at 01:54:54PM +0200, Roger Oberholtzer wrote:

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We are trying to use serial ports on openSUSE 12.1. Nothing fancy or different from how they have been used in the past. Except nothing shows up on the open port.

Are there any changes to installed services in 12.1 compared to earlier releases that could have a basic change to simply reading from the serial port?

Hm, is this like with the modularized lp kernel support?

Have you tried to load one of the modules available from /lib/modules//kernel/drivers/tty/serial/ ?

Or is this yet another side effect of systemd vs sysvinit?

At first I thought it was a problem with a local driver that replaces the serial port driver for one of the ports. It handles photocells, passing along to the client the exact time the device triggered as detected in the ISR. But that was not it. Recall that I said it was a new computer? It uses a SuperMicro MB that has two serial ports. SuperMicro, however, no longer make the panels that provide access to the port that you mount on the back. So, we have purchased these elsewhere. Seems these connectors are not pin compatible with the SuperMicro MBs (even though they claim to be so). After the back panel connectors were re-wired, the data arrives. I truely could not believe that openSUSE would ship with defective serial port functionality. But I could think that some system service was getting in the way. So, openSUSE was not the culprit. It was hardware. Since I do biware (hardware and software) I did not want to take sides on this eternal question too quickly... Yours sincerely, Roger Oberholtzer OPQ Systems / Ramböll RST Office: Int +46 10-615 60 20 Mobile: Int +46 70-815 1696 roger.oberholtzer@ramboll.se ________________________________________ Ramböll Sverige AB Krukmakargatan 21 P.O. Box 17009 SE-104 62 Stockholm, Sweden www.rambollrst.se -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R. wrote:

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On 2012-05-29 10:19, Roger Oberholtzer wrote:

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Recall that I said it was a new computer? It uses a SuperMicro MB that has two serial ports. SuperMicro, however, no longer make the panels that provide access to the port that you mount on the back. So, we have purchased these elsewhere. Seems these connectors are not pin compatible with the SuperMicro MBs (even though they claim to be so). After the back panel connectors were re-wired, the data arrives.

Wow. I would think that the serial port connection and the motherboard connection have been made for ages, why change the wiring now? It can only provoke problems, like yours.

To my knowledge, the wiring (+plug) between the motherboard and the DB9 port is not standard(ized). -- Per Jessen, Zürich (24.3°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Tue, 2012-05-29 at 15:10 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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On 2012-05-29 14:46, Per Jessen wrote:

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Carlos E. R. wrote:

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To my knowledge, the wiring (+plug) between the motherboard and the DB9 port is not standard(ized).

It was, de facto, when I assembled computers in the mid 90's. Just a flat ribbon cable to the outside connector (DE9), crimped inside, and a ribbon header on the other end. The wiring is one to one, routing is done on the motherboard.

As long as they connect the lines on the back of the DB-9 connector as expected. Yours sincerely, Roger Oberholtzer OPQ Systems / Ramböll RST Office: Int +46 10-615 60 20 Mobile: Int +46 70-815 1696 roger.oberholtzer@ramboll.se ________________________________________ Ramböll Sverige AB Krukmakargatan 21 P.O. Box 17009 SE-104 62 Stockholm, Sweden www.rambollrst.se -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Roger Oberholtzer wrote:

Seems to be the case. However, the maker of the back panel connector claimed to be compatible with these SuperMicro motherboards. Of course we bought a box of them...

Is there a significant difference or simply one or two wrong connections. One possibility is someone flippped the cable over during assembly. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-05-30 08:50, Roger Oberholtzer wrote:

On Tue, 2012-05-29 at 11:39 -0400, James Knott wrote:

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Roger Oberholtzer wrote:

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Is there a significant difference or simply one or two wrong connections. One possibility is someone flippped the cable over during assembly.

This is our suspicion.

If the cable is flipped over, you simply flip over the ribbon header on the socket, and error corrected. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk/F9lAACgkQIvFNjefEBxqFzACgqhcIvhNV0EX7bZjWUauY7f2e 2MYAoL2oF3ZAAb6U2D8CWwI/N+AiNHqd =wnT4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-05-30 14:35, James Knott wrote:

Carlos E. R. wrote:

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This is our suspicion. If the cable is flipped over, you simply flip over the ribbon header on the socket, and error corrected.

This will often require replacement of the connector, as it may not be possible to make a reliable connection with a re-used connector.

I'm not talking of remaking the connector, just plug it in reversed. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk/GFKQACgkQIvFNjefEBxpS2QCg1vEgEOVurs26jlE3mDaq/2cf HFIAoNQaZMlE98peYyVAhXvu6ppkGgeG =PcXQ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-05-30 14:09, James Knott wrote:

Roger Oberholtzer wrote:

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Is there a significant difference or simply one or two wrong

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connections. One possibility is someone flippped the cable over during assembly. This is our suspicion.

Ribbon cables have a marker, such as a stripe, along one edge. That marker is supposed to go to pin 1 on the connector.

Right. Also the connector may have a dot marking pin 1, and a notch to impede reversing the connector (with a corresponding recess in the female plug). Sometimes the stripe was not aligned to the dot, the cable was reversed when manufactured; the solution was to cut or break the notch in the connector and plug it reversed. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk/GFAoACgkQIvFNjefEBxq+NgCgjc3Zmb/TSdjTcJ3UYnhqMSfU jYcAoNcI/x5Qutq7WLP+UMnrDFQp6g80 =E17s -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 2012/05/29 14:46 (GMT+0200) Per Jessen composed:

Carlos E. R. wrote:

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Roger Oberholtzer wrote:

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Recall that I said it was a new computer? It uses a SuperMicro MB that has two serial ports. SuperMicro, however, no longer make the panels that provide access to the port that you mount on the back. So, we have purchased these elsewhere. Seems these connectors are not pin compatible with the SuperMicro MBs (even though they claim to be so). After the back panel connectors were re-wired, the data arrives.

...

Wow. I would think that the serial port connection and the motherboard connection have been made for ages, why change the wiring now? It can only provoke problems, like yours.

To my knowledge, the wiring (+plug) between the motherboard and the DB9 port is not standard(ized).

There were two "standards", Intel's, and the other one, which was used by SuperMicro and various other manufacturers. When not able to use a cable supplied with the motherboard, it was always necessary to check a non-Intel motherboard's wiring diagram to see which of the two, then locate a cable to match it. Or if no wiring diagram was available, just keep trying others from the stash until a serial mouse would work. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 2012/05/29 10:16 (GMT-0400) Carl Hartung composed:

Felix Miata wrote:

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There were two "standards", Intel's, and the other one, which was used by SuperMicro and various other manufacturers. When not able to use a cable supplied with the motherboard, it was always necessary to check a non-Intel motherboard's wiring diagram to see which of the two, then locate a cable to match it. Or if no wiring diagram was available, just keep trying others from the stash until a serial mouse would work.

Good grief! I'd forgotten that I'd forgotten this. It seems so long ago. Wasn't this around the same time we were populating memory boards ("full slot") with our own DIMMs? ... Correction, of course I meant dual inline packaged DRAM chips :-)

That may have dated the inception of the problem, but it continued until ATX made the cabling all but obsolete. Leave it to Intel to resurrect the problem a decade later by leaving serial connectors off their motherboards' back panels. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 2012/05/29 16:45 (GMT+0200) Carlos E. R. composed:

Felix Miata wrote:

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Leave it to Intel to resurrect the problem a decade later by leaving serial connectors off their motherboards' back panels.

Not only Intel.

I had no intent that my use of the word "resurrect" should imply "only", but merely "inception", like PCI slot introduction; or, PS/2 port removal, the same kind of marketing "wisdom" as taking an internally 16-bit or 32-bit CPU (8086/80386DX) and crippling its performance with half-width I/O (8088/80386SX), all without significant manufacturing and marketing cost savings (probably extra expense considered together). -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-05-29 16:16, Roger Oberholtzer wrote:

On Tue, 2012-05-29 at 10:07 -0400, Felix Miata wrote:

BTW, we use serial ports because we need the pulse-per-second signal from the high-end GPS receivers we use.

I thought so. Many people are not aware that USB is not valid for this. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk/E3hEACgkQIvFNjefEBxoWeACeKHvv7FMvwjc5C23rKA4Kwn/X 2z0An1yQLtHyOb5u5BNIdFk+VkndSs3d =KKAM -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Correction, of course I meant dual inline packaged DRAM chips :-) My neurons are creaking this a.m. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

James Knott wrote:

Felix Miata wrote:

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just keep trying others from the stash until a serial mouse would work.

While I've plenty of experience with serial ports, I don't recall ever using a serial mouse on any of my computers. I started out with a bus mouse port on my ATI video card and then graduated to PS/2 and now USB connections.

I think I might still have a serial mouse somewhere, but I think I've also only ever used PS/2 or USB mice. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (25.9°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Felix Miata wrote:

Maybe my experience building, repairing and upgrading systems goes back farther than yours? A $2 serial mouse was and still is a cheap and easy way to find out if a serial port is functional.

My experience goes back to building my first computer, an IMSAI 8080, in 1976 and beyond. I never said I haven't worked with a serial mouse, just never used one on my own computers. BTW, my experience with serial ports includes those on mini-computers and also designing & building my own 8 port serial card for that IMSAI. I worked as a technician for a telecommunications company for about 17 years and had *LOTS* of experience with serial ports, modems, printers and more. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 2012/05/29 13:27 (GMT-0400) James Knott composed:

James Knott wrote:

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Felix Miata wrote:

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Per Jessen wrote:

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...I think I've also only ever used PS/2 or USB mice.

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Maybe my experience building, repairing and upgrading systems goes back farther than yours? A $2 serial mouse was and still is a cheap and easy way to find out if a serial port is functional.

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My experience goes back to building my first computer, an IMSAI 8080, in 1976 and beyond. I never said I haven't worked with a serial mouse, just never used one on my own computers.

My response to Per's comment wasn't intended to be imputed to you as well. Quoting you was merely to retain the context of his comment.

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BTW, my experience with serial ports includes those on mini-computers and also designing& building my own 8 port serial card for that IMSAI. I worked as a technician for a telecommunications company for about 17 years and had *LOTS* of experience with serial ports, modems, printers and more.

I was pretty sure of a longer experience period for you than Per. Most OS/2 people started long before OS/2 wuz begat. :-)

Forgot to mention, I worked with serial ports so often that I had a plug in tester that showed the status lines, data lines and also supported patch wires.

I still do. I just hope if I ever actually need it that I can find it. :-p -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

James Knott said the following on 05/29/2012 01:27 PM:

Forgot to mention, I worked with serial ports so often that I had a plug in tester that showed the status lines, data lines and also supported patch wires.

I had (more than) one of those too. Not just a good idea but ESSENTIAL! -- Information is the currency of democracy. --Thomas Jefferson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Tue, 2012-05-29 at 19:30 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:

Felix Miata wrote:

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On 2012/05/29 18:02 (GMT+0200) Per Jessen composed:

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James Knott wrote:

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Felix Miata wrote:

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just keep trying others from the stash until a serial mouse would work.

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While I've plenty of experience with serial ports, I don't recall ever using a serial mouse on any of my computers. I started out with a bus mouse port on my ATI video card and then graduated to PS/2 and now USB connections.

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I think I might still have a serial mouse somewhere, but I think I've also only ever used PS/2 or USB mice.

Maybe my experience building, repairing and upgrading systems goes back farther than yours?

Entirely possible. I think I bought my first own PC in '93, but had been working on them since 88-89. (working on = using as a terminal).

Can't resist. First 'PC' here was a Terak running the UCSDp system. Pascal was the environment. Back in '81. Worked rather well. A home-built CP/M machine was also in the mix at that time. This was before IBM entered the area. They did not invent the PC. They just defined a very popular one. Yours sincerely, Roger Oberholtzer OPQ Systems / Ramböll RST Office: Int +46 10-615 60 20 Mobile: Int +46 70-815 1696 roger.oberholtzer@ramboll.se ________________________________________ Ramböll Sverige AB Krukmakargatan 21 P.O. Box 17009 SE-104 62 Stockholm, Sweden www.rambollrst.se -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Wed, 2012-05-30 at 12:30 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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On 2012-05-30 08:56, Roger Oberholtzer wrote:

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On Tue, 2012-05-29 at 19:30 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:

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Can't resist. First 'PC' here was a Terak running the UCSDp system. Pascal was the environment. Back in '81. Worked rather well. A home-built CP/M machine was also in the mix at that time. This was before IBM entered the area. They did not invent the PC. They just defined a very popular one.

Indeed. And documented it, allowing many vendors to design hardware and software for it. Almost an open platform.

Not sure about the 'open' part. Compaq engineers were 'sealed in a room' and had to reverse engineer it using only the machine itself. This then allowed Compaq to make their own PC machines with their own BIOS that let DOS run. I do not think IBM expected anyone to do that. If they had I am sure they could have made the task more difficult. But I would still hesitate to call it open. Yours sincerely, Roger Oberholtzer OPQ Systems / Ramböll RST Office: Int +46 10-615 60 20 Mobile: Int +46 70-815 1696 roger.oberholtzer@ramboll.se ________________________________________ Ramböll Sverige AB Krukmakargatan 21 P.O. Box 17009 SE-104 62 Stockholm, Sweden www.rambollrst.se -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Roger Oberholtzer wrote:

On Wed, 2012-05-30 at 12:30 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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On 2012-05-30 08:56, Roger Oberholtzer wrote:

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On Tue, 2012-05-29 at 19:30 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:

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Can't resist. First 'PC' here was a Terak running the UCSDp system. Pascal was the environment. Back in '81. Worked rather well. A home-built CP/M machine was also in the mix at that time. This was before IBM entered the area. They did not invent the PC. They just defined a very popular one.

Indeed. And documented it, allowing many vendors to design hardware and software for it. Almost an open platform.

Not sure about the 'open' part. Compaq engineers were 'sealed in a room' and had to reverse engineer it using only the machine itself. This then allowed Compaq to make their own PC machines with their own BIOS that let DOS run. I do not think IBM expected anyone to do that. If they had I am sure they could have made the task more difficult. But I would still hesitate to call it open.

Ignoring the BIOS, the hardware specs were/are pretty open, I think. The AT(X) power-supply, the (E)ISA/PCI/PCI-X bus, drive interfaces, ports, location of mounting holes, air flow design etc. A lot of those weren't just IBM of course. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (23.4°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-05-30 14:37, James Knott wrote:

Roger Oberholtzer wrote:

Back in those days, it was common to provide such info. However, Compaq's problem was that it was copyrighted, which meant they couldn't just copy it.

IIRC, only the bios was (partly?) copyrighted, the hardware was not. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk/GFPMACgkQIvFNjefEBxpLqwCffoblBRWI13vgrGpkDDKbiTMU OK8AnjHIwvaJtnK8t01te/MS7y4qiKB1 =kQ1l -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Roger Oberholtzer wrote:

But try getting IBM PC DOS to work without a BIOS. That did not work. And anyone that provided a cloned PC did so after Compaq reverse engineered the BIOS and showed that it could be done. Previous to that, only IBM made IBM-compatible PCs that could run IBM PC DOS and IBM PC DOS applications.

There were some companies who sold clones without the BIOS chip. Purchasers would then copy the IBM BIOS to get them going. Same with the BASIC ROM. There were also some companies who disregarded the copyright and copied the IBM BIOS. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

My systems at that time used RS-232 to connect to the larger systems, VAX-based BSD UNIX, HP 21MX minis and a Masscomp SVR3 UNIX box. Back when I had my IMSAI 8080, my wife visited my office and I showed her "Adventure", running on a VAX 11/780. She asked if she could play

Lew Wolfgang wrote: that game on my computer. I said no, but if we had a modem... I was soon the proud owner of a 300 baud manual modem. :-)

But then came the first IBM PC and blew me out of the water. People didn't like it because it was better (it wasn't), or because it was cheaper (it wasn't), but because it was "IBM", and that brought respectability in their eyes to the industry. It was crap-assed hardware running a toy-clown operating system, and the rest is history. Harrumph!

As someone who at the time was a computer technician and also owned an IMSAI, I found a lot of technical deficiencies in the original PC. One big one was the edge triggered interrupts, which made it difficult for sharing them. Of course, PC-DOS, was essentially MS-DOS, which in turn was derived from Q-DOS, which was originally intended to be a development system while waiting for CP/M-86 to be released. At that time, DOS was clearly a poor imitation of CP/M. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org