Linda Walsh said the following on 05/08/2013 03:39 PM:
Anton Aylward wrote:
> Linda Walsh said the following on 05/08/2013 03:27 AM:
>> but one I didn't think Anton would take personally.
> Anton takes very little personally .... a few days later.
> Linda: you report a lot of technical problems with your own systems
> to the list. I must admit it makes me wonder why you have these
> problems and and others, not least of all myself, don't.
1) I boot from my hard disk
2) I have a separate /usr partition
Therefore work to disable booting from your hard disk directly cause
problems on my end as I undo / workaround such.
Work to move files into /usr and leave dangling symlinks on the root
partition that point to nothing when /usr is not mounted also cause
problems. When I have asked why not move those utils into /bin or
/sbin, and put the symlinks in /usr (you'd get the same benefits from
/usr based programs' perspectives, I'm pointed ignored.
Oh, I'm sorry, haven't I made it clear why I ignore you when you go on
about that? I thought I had.
It is because I too have a number of systems set up with separate /usr
and /var and /usr/share and /usr/lib/perl5 and /usr/lib/ruby and a few
other such splits of /usr/lib because, my gosh, its a big subtree!
And, as regular readers will recall, I'm obsessive about using LVM and
small partitions and backing up to, if not DVDs, then CDs, and yes I do
use K3B, and yes, by gosh, by golly my /tmp is large enough to let that
happen, don't you just know, because my /tmp is another LVM partition -
but you were expecting that weren't you?
What? Yes I do have a system that is just BtrFS, all on one disk, not
/boot partition, not /tmp partition. Again, and see previous email, its
there just to see if it can be done and it can and it seems to work just
fine, by gosh, by golly, showing that openSuse is capable of great
things even on crapped out hardware out of the Closet Of Anxieties that
isn't even capable of running Windows, so that I'm not trapped into
being stuck with Thunderbird 126.96.36.199 and can use the threading
mechanisms of 17.0.5, even if they do have a different look-and-feel
from the one you are using. But what the heck, Linux has a different
look and feel to Windows anyway; I can live with that.
The thing is that your 'dangling links' actually don't dangle in real
life. Well not for me. As far as I can see "it all works" and that's
what counts. Or it works for me, out of the box, without fiddling with
any details. All the stuff of systemd uses absolute paths since it
isn't using the shell and $PATH. Out of the box my system boots to
include /usr (I'm talking about the ones where I use partitions not the
Weren't we talking about disks and systems that were big enough to need
a 1TB /tmp? Heck I know, because one such machine has it, that you can
put all of openSuse, a few desktops (xfce, e17...) office tools and
more, all on just 20G
NAME MAJ:MIN RM SIZE RO TYPE MOUNTPOINT
sda 8:0 0 19.1G 0 disk
├─sda1 8:1 0 156.9M 0 part /boot
└─sda2 8:2 0 19G 0 part
├─system-HOME (dm-0) 253:0 0 1G 0 lvm /home
├─system-SWAP (dm-1) 253:1 0 1.1G 0 lvm [SWAP]
├─system-TMP (dm-2) 253:2 0 1.6G 0 lvm /tmp
├─system-suse--root (dm-3) 253:3 0 5G 0 lvm /
├─system-suse--var (dm-4) 253:4 0 2G 0 lvm /var
└─system-suse--usr (dm-5) 253:5 0 2G 0 lvm /usr
or an system running BtrFS
NAME MAJ:MIN RM SIZE RO TYPE MOUNTPOINT
sda 8:0 0 19.1G 0 disk
├─sda1 8:1 0 1.4G 0 part [SWAP]
└─sda2 8:2 0 17.7G 0 part
Now if you can't spare 20G from your 1TB to put all of / and /usr on the
same partition then things are dire.
What? Someone is asking how I back up that stuff with just a 1.6G /tmp
or the 20G BtrFS. These are the systems from the Closet of Anxieties,
scratch - to show it can be done, to show that openSuse can run on
machines the Windows world has rejected. Machines that show a lot of
what Linda goes on about makes no sense.
Oh, and recall the other thread where I mentioned using rsync for
backups to another machine... just to show that it could be done and
done very simply and easily ...
Some people have been promising that it is going to
get worse --
nothing will work if you don't boot from a ramdisk or have a
separate root. The former likely because the keys to access allow
secure boot will be kept on the initrd, so if you boot from the HD,
you don't get secure boot -- which may be the only option supported
in a few years.
Your point being that most vendors are kow-towing to whatever Microsoft
says. I don't know about that. My all-in-one 8G USB stick (only one
desktop, few tools) versions of Koppix (yah! boots on anything) Fedora
and OpenSuse (I don't need the 16G 32G stick for a minimalist boot)
seemed to work on all the machines in the store I tried and that
included some with this UEFI thing. No separate root on that stick.
So you don't boot from a initrd... how long can you justify that?
Or is this really about you simply don't want change and view change as
somehow ... nasty.
I'm not a typical end-user -- I'm a computer scientist -- who likes
to tinker in every aspect of their computer and run comparison
benchmarks and tune it to run as fast and optimally as possible.
Ah, so you're dealing with the source and all the variations between
different Linux vendors. All the way up to Linux on a mainframe.
I often try out new computing theories and practices
if I can on my
Like I try out new releases on scrappy bits of h/w from the Closet of
Anxieties. I've got Mageia and Fedora here too - the Fedora is off
line, that disk was in the closet for a reason ... so it goes ...
Having that freedom curtailed to give corporations the
keys to my
system so they can charge me for apps is not how I want my computers
to be taken. Some of the above may sound paranoid, but it's nothing
that MS and others haven't already stated that they want to do.
My ISP does that too; they charge extra for a static address if I want a
certificate and more if I want to run virtual machines .. Damn It, they
want to make a profit.
I re-read your
problems with later versions of T'Bird. I've been
happily using it since Mozilla calved it off as its own product.
As I've commented before, I use fetchmail to download onto a
'server' and access via IMAP from whatever workstation I'm at
(which might even be over a ssh tunnel). Yes, I could configure
all or specific folders to download from the IMAP server to a local
cache but I've chose not to use that configuration option.
---- I configure
the folders on the IMAP server -- i.e. the filter
happens at delivery time, before IMAP sees them. I have over active
mailboxes (ones that may have new mail) and near 500 total.
Oh what a coincidence! I have a dedicated mail server that runs
fetchmail, pipes though procmail (to do blacklisting and whitelisting
more efficiently than spamassassin can), then spamassassin (to do
Baysian learning), then procmail again (to sort into the folders).
All that, as you say, before the IMAP server (dovecot in my case) sees
them. Before Thunderbird sees them.
Your point being?
Note: Its a
--- A default configuration option that is difficult to turn
since they really wanted it on -- so they could give you the
"one-index' feature of all your email.
I don't see that its difficult to turn off.
I do see that you have to explicitly choose to download folders onto
your machine. I do see that the size and other things ARE configurable
in 17.0.5 (Menu:edit->preferences->advanced-<advanced
configuration->enable global search and indexer)(and also the user_prefs
editor on the same dialogue box). I can't speak for 188.8.131.52 since I'm
not running that, but the capability to control such is there is you
choose to move to 17.0.5.
Yes T'Bird in IMAP mode will download the header/envelope
information. (And cache it for the next startup) How else can it
display that information - subject, date, from, status - and the
number of messages in the folders? Please don't confuse
downloading headers with downloading body.
---- That's not a problem.
It's the "download for offline use"
setting that went from default 'off' to default 'on' for all folders
Dunno for 3 but there are a few places in 17.0.5 where controls relating
to that exist and I haven't changed them and when I look they are either
"Off" or "ask me".
T'Bird download the body? Damn right it does! How else can
you read the message! Does it cache that? Apparently so: move up
and down the list when you have 3-panel set up or go to another
folder then come back. No delay in viewing a message you've
already viewed. Does the cache expire? Of course it does. Can
you configure it? Of course you can:
Um... thats for the browser that is built into to Tbird (but not
usually enabled). That is not for the email messages.
Maybe so for 184.108.40.206 but I can clear space on my 17...
You cannot expire the message bodies in your local cache without also
deleting them out of your IMAP store (see
Ah, but you finally there mention 'roaming profiles'.
I *am* using IMAP. Yes I can delete messages on the server.
My windows reflect what the IMAP protocol sees on the server, so a
delete in the window deletes on the server. I don't see how you can
_not_ delete on the server if you delete what you see in the display.
If you want to purge the local cache and force T'Bird to ask for all the
headers from the IMAP server that is a different matter.
As it was, the wording was unclear, and I wanted them to make them
separate -- but they just fixed the wording. The only way you can
recover that space is to manually delete the cache files out of your
That depends what you mean by 'manually'.
Yes you can use a file browser and delete them one by one, or you can
use the GUI, built in with 17.0.5 and purge them.
When they get over a few 100MB (that just for index
Eh? You can set the size at which the cache tops out and does it
(I don't read every message that comes in on
Neither do I, maybe not for days ... certainly not the "SPAM" tree
-- not to mention > many of my folders are archive
folders that won't
be read in unless I go search them --
I have a complete ARCHIVE tree and by now it has more than the current
tree. Good on the capabilities of dovecot for this.
but IMAP can search them without mozilla downloading
not real well supported by Tbird though.
True. Few mail readers can push stuff back from the remote 'reader'
into the filter search and index capabilities of dovecot.
But none of this is justification for failing to move to a more up to
date version of Thunderbird.
other cache settings too - see the documentation.
--- See all my bug reports in the
mozilla DB... I've been using
firefox/netscape for longer than I've been using suse (or linux for
that manner)...it ran on Irix when I was at SGI.
You're not alone; I was using the 'original' back when it was still
"Mosaic" (HA HA HA) and could not understand why the version for
different platforms had different menu structures.
At this point the problem isn't so much that I
can't turn off the
downloading -- but if I do my favorite extension (the one that shows
the hyperlinked/clickable conversation graph (that can be exported in
in SVG!), that I'd lose -- because the author switched to using
tbird's indexing service in 3.x -- which only works on the locally
downloaded content in the message bodies. If you turn that off, you
lose that feature.. He used to do his own indexing and sqlite db
storage -- that's the version I still have that works in 2.x --
which is no longer supported in 3.x.
Some of that makes sense.
If this tool runs locally and its doing full text indexing of the body
to produce these hyperlinks then it need to have the bodies of the
messages local to do that.
I suppose you could just pour the messages into some external wikifier
but that wouldn't have the email interface.
So while I could turn off the full account download --
I'd still lose
Life like that.
It could be worse. Famine, Earthquake, War, Meteor strike, Divorce ....
bummer. There are other reasons...momementum... busy
I can think of other synonyms.
Problems? Yes I have lots of them! They all get back to the
plugins and extensions, mostly that the developers don't keep up to
--- bingo... I'd lose half my extensions on any upgrade.. I have over
You mean that there are actually that many extension for Thunderbird?
Don't they slow it down?
Oh my, I though my half dozen were a lot, and some of them are not of
very good quality. Still....
--- Um... nope...its' not the few hundred meg of
headers.. it's the
6G of bodies... that is stored in my ***ROAMING PROFILE***... the
first time it happened, I didn't know that Tbird had downloaded the
So long as you need a full text indexer/hyperlink builder that runs
locally its going to need all those bodies locally.
YOU made THAT decision, that have that facility and that's a
consequence of the decision YOU made. So long as you choose to run that
indexer and visualizer you are going to have to download "the whole
Are there other ways to do it? You're the "Computer Scientist", you
tell us, but I'd betcha the answer is "yes". But the implementation you
have runs locally. If you want to get away from that find one or the
equivalent that can work entirely on the server. Dovecot does have a
full text indexer, perhaps there's something that can make use of its
I think you're being excessive.
You did say that you don't read all your folders.
I gather that - like me - you have a 'working set' of what is of
interest and lot of stuff that doesn't get looked at often or just gets
archived. In that case I should thin there can be some kind of
accommodation that only the working set needs to be regularly downloaded
and updated. The 'archives' can be downloaded, indexed, then cleaned out.
But then you mentioned
I'm hoping to get 'X' to run
Well it that's your problem then it isn't really a T'Bird problem.
---- Well ... yes and no. My old Tbird runs locally so no 'X'.
That makes no sense.
My T'Bird runs locally (at my workstation or on my laptop or whatever
the keyboard I'm using wherever i'm using it is attached to) but its
still running under X. Like right now its running under KDE which is
running under X. The laptop uses lightweight xfce to run T'Bird and the
xfce runs under X.
What's you're saying is that you're running it under windows because you
find X isn't fast enough.
Gosh! Do you mean that you're running X on Windows and that's not fast
Believe me, X on openSuse, even with a crippled SiS card, is FAST!
If 'X' ran at the same speed as the local
window manager, I'd be a
You man you ARE running X under Windows?
That's gonna be a long haul... The problem is
Since I regularly get over 300MB/s in large transfers -- fastest has
been a little over 700, but not reliably. Max theoretical would be
2.5GB/s. That's getting closer to bus speeds of a few-several years
That's why I have hopes of getting my linux desktop to run in near
real-time I've even seen GLX/3d stuff run in real time -- where the
remote end uses my local Nvidia 590's 3d acceleration -- that's
pretty snazzy. But that also doesn't work reliable... though right
now, not much does with my libraries being a bit whacked out due to
the systemd repairs and workarounds.
Why don't you find your local equivalent to my company's Closet of
Anxieties, i.e. where the old discarded equipment lives and modest box
and put VANILLA unmodified 12.3 on it. Forget all your arguments about
your like and dislikes, and jsut see what VANILLA out of the box 12.3
Either that or explain wtf you're doing that the above is
obscurificating 'cos I can't see it. What's local, what's remove
with this bandwidth what's with this remote?
Yes, I know this is an old crippled box I'm describing. That's my
point. Yes, I know that at my local Best Buy I can get a an Acer or
Toshiba or, heavens forbid!, a HP with a 4-core CPU, maybe as much
as 6-8G of memory and a 650G to 1TB disk for about $350.
Assuming I get that far into the store and haven't been persuaded
to spend that on a camera, phone or tablet or large screen TV ...
remote? I use the more friendly windows desktop as a
primary desktop -- the server in the back room is my "disk space" and
network access. The windows box is low on disk space, high on
Whereas this crippled box out of the Closet of Anxieties is low on disk
space, low on memory, low on graphics power.
Look, if you don't have a Closet of Anxieties go along to the sally
Anne, Goodwill, whatever your local thrift store is. I've seen some
good PCs at the Sally Anne for around $20-$25. Forget the monitors,
they're not worth it. I picked up a WRT45G for $5 and flashed it, thank
you very much. The landfills are overflowing with computer equipment
that is being junked. Ask Pooh's friends and relations; they all seem
to throw out perfectly usable equipment just because they bought the
Last month I had a stack of thin-line desktops on my desk with a KVM
switch, all 20G drives - no, I like there was 40G drive in among them -
from the Closet, all bits a pieces getting them to work. 13.3 CAN run
in a half G of memory, but I couldn't get it to install in less than 3/4
G - a 512 and a 256. I was short on DVD drives and not all cables
worked. Oh fun. But once I got one machine working I could make disks
for the others. 12.3 is AMAZINGLY efficient even on this junk.
I'll admit finding junked but workable drives is harder than junked
chassis. If you have to resort to eBay/Kijiji then, heck, buy new even
if it is 0.5 TB, its cheaper :-/
But lack of a dedicated machine, lack of disk space isn't an excuse in
Just for the heck, I took a USB stick in and
booted on LiveLinux on
one of these machines - no not at Best Buy, at another place where
the salesdroids were more tolerant. MY GOD IS 12.3 FAST ON A
4-CORE! Well OK, that high end video helped.
So why do I use the stuff from the Closet Of Anxieties? 'Cos its
there; 'cos I like running Linux on stuff that can't run Windows
just to prove a point; 'cos its more of a challenge than running it
on high-end modern stuff.
---- My last server was 10 years old when it died... it
was a 2 cpu
running 1Gh processors with celeron sized caches (256k).
Oh wow, way ahead of my email server! The BIOS dates that from 2002.
I used linux on it because it gave good server
performance for it's
age -- but wouldn't have if I'd put windows on it. Was only a 32-bit
machine -- had 2GB of main memory.
These machines max out at 1G of memory.
Am familiar with making do with old stuff... after 10
years, it gave
up the ghost...
The bottom line is that I'm not very
sympathetic to your reasons
for sticking with 220.127.116.11.
--- um....remote? ;-)... Cheers! & thanks for the
I tried VNC between two of these boxes a while back. (See list archives)
I had problems understanding the config - suse and fedora and mageia all
have their own ways. X on top of X. Ye Gods! the prions the vncserver
has! You can optimise for all kinds of hardware and bandwidth in all
manner of ways.
Performance over the LAN - that was just a 10MHz one - was OK. Mouse
was jerky, redraw was more than adequate. I decided to stick with
XForwarding over SSH.
If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities.
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