On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 2:53 PM, Benji Weber wrote:

2008/6/20 John Andersen :

...

Opensuse being a "Community based" distro notwithstanding, this advice was (as usual) totally ignored.

This is rather a misrepresentation. Significant changes were made after the discussion on the lists and bugzilla. The DVD installer does offer KDE3 at the same level as KDE4 with a suitable description to indicate that the former is less bleeding edge. If you download the KDE4 livecd then you will get KDE4 (surprise).

-- Benjamin Weber

Perhaps for some values of "suitable". Book mark this post and come back in a month after rant upon rant of KDE4 inadequacies. See if you still feel it was a "Suitable Description". -- ----------JSA--------- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Benji Weber wrote:

2008/6/20 John Andersen :

...

Opensuse being a "Community based" distro notwithstanding, this advice was (as usual) totally ignored.

This is rather a misrepresentation. Significant changes were made after the discussion on the lists and bugzilla.

But nowhere close to being what KDE users expect. Regardless of whether it crasshes or not, all of the missing functionality makes it alpha-quality.

The DVD installer does offer KDE3 at the same level as KDE4 with a suitable description to indicate that the former is less bleeding edge. If you download the KDE4 livecd then you will get KDE4 (surprise).

Apparently, Novell is trying to push KDE 4 hard so that they can get a lot of fanfare out of beryl... but no matter how good it is, if it's resting on top of an immature version of KDE, who wants or needs it? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Stephan Binner wrote:

On Saturday 21 June 2008 06:13:04 Matt Archer wrote:

...

all of the missing functionality makes it alpha-quality.

Nonsense, a feature set is not definining the Alpha, Beta or RC levels.

KDE users have every reason to expect that something labelled KDE 4, and NOT labelled Alpha or Beta will have all the same functionality as KDE 3.x, or improvements upon it. I hear BMW is releasing the 2009 model of the X5...but they haven't quite got everytihng done... so don't bother your little head about the fact that the transmission doesn't have a reverse gear, and engine hood, trunk-lid, doors, and seat-belts are missing, because everything that IS on the car works properly... those other pesky little things, they're going to take care of in the 2009 1/2 model. Would ANYONE buy such a thing? Or would you rightfully punch any salesman in the face for trying to sell you such a stupid piece of crap.

Please stop trolling.

Please stop being obtuse -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sat, Jun 21, 2008 at 6:22 AM, Anders Johansson wrote:

On Saturday 21 June 2008 15:17:55 Matt Archer wrote:

...

I hear BMW is releasing the 2009 model of the X5...but they haven't quite got everytihng done... so don't bother your little head about the fact that the transmission doesn't have a reverse gear, and engine hood, trunk-lid, doors, and seat-belts are missing, because everything that IS on the car works properly... those other pesky little things, they're going to take care of in the 2009 1/2 model.

But Aaron, instead of trying to be funny, why don't you tell us what it is that you're missing.

Since you're making similies with reverse gears and seat belts in cars, you must be missing some fairly substantial core functionality

So what is it?

As far as I can see, the core stuff is all in place, and what's missing is the niceties.

Niceties? Core stuff? XFCE4 has core stuff. Rip out KDE4 and reinstall KDE3.5.9 and you will have before you a complete demonstration of all the things missing from KDE4. -- ----------JSA--------- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 2008/06/21 20:03 (GMT+0200) Anders Johansson apparently typed:

Please name something vital to the daily functioning of a desktop that is missing from KDE4

Probably not vital to many besides myself, but definitely regression: 1-mc is missing from Konsole menu, which means mouse can't open mc 2-Konsole doesn't automatically open the same tabs it closed with (only 1). In KDE3, If I had 2 shells, 1 mc, 1 root mc & 1 root shell in Konsole when I logged off last, then when I log in next, I get all 5 automatically, without having to think about it or figure out what to configure to make it happen. The nice tree list at left is gone from Kcontrol, replaced by Ubuntu's dumb bunch of windoz icons that fall far short in number of the total tree list items, meaning I can't find a way to do quite a number of things I used to know how to do. The individual kcmshell applets now are littered with more useless clutter to make their windows require more space. I can no longer minimize most to anywhere near small enough to display only the part of their info I care about (e.g. xserver, where I only care about 2 lines: resolution and dpi, for inclusion in screenshots). -- "Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation?" Matthew 7:12 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Anders Johansson wrote:

On Saturday 21 June 2008 20:45:46 Felix Miata wrote:

...

On 2008/06/21 20:03 (GMT+0200) Anders Johansson apparently typed:

...

Please name something vital to the daily functioning of a desktop that is missing from KDE4 Probably not vital to many besides myself, but definitely regression:

1-mc is missing from Konsole menu, which means mouse can't open mc

That's a profile - you can easily create one yourself in Settings->manage profiles. Just set the command to /usr/bin/mc instead of /bin/bash

KDE 3.5 remembers what was running in each individual window when you logged off... that is completely different from a general profile. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Anders Johansson wrote:

On Saturday 21 June 2008 20:45:46 Felix Miata wrote:

...

On 2008/06/21 20:03 (GMT+0200) Anders Johansson apparently typed:

...

Please name something vital to the daily functioning of a desktop that is missing from KDE4 Probably not vital to many besides myself, but definitely regression:

1-mc is missing from Konsole menu, which means mouse can't open mc

That's a profile - you can easily create one yourself in Settings->manage profiles. Just set the command to /usr/bin/mc instead of /bin/bash

...

2-Konsole doesn't automatically open the same tabs it closed with (only 1). In KDE3, If I had 2 shells, 1 mc, 1 root mc & 1 root shell in Konsole when I logged off last, then when I log in next, I get all 5 automatically, without having to think about it or figure out what to configure to make it happen.

That's a valid bug, I think. Have you opened one? The session manager should be made to remember those things

Why, are the KDE devs so stupid they can't notice for themselves that they still haven't duplicated this functionality? Honestly, Anders, you're expecting us to treat the KDE devs as if they are irresponsible 4-year old children. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Kai Ponte wrote:

On Saturday 21 June 2008 06:50:10 pm Matt Archer wrote:

...

...

That's a valid bug, I think. Have you opened one? The session manager should be made to remember those things Why, are the KDE devs so stupid they can't notice for themselves that they still haven't duplicated this functionality?

Yo, peeps!

You're discussing this like it is something unavoidable like beagle.

C'mon, it isn't that bad!

OH yeah, Kai, there you go -- just throw gasoline on the fire now. ;-) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Anders Johansson wrote:

Matt Archer wrote:

...

Anders Johansson wrote:

...

On Saturday 21 June 2008 20:45:46 Felix Miata wrote:

...

On 2008/06/21 20:03 (GMT+0200) Anders Johansson apparently typed:

...

Please name something vital to the daily functioning of a desktop that is missing from KDE4 Probably not vital to many besides myself, but definitely regression:

1-mc is missing from Konsole menu, which means mouse can't open mc

That's a profile - you can easily create one yourself in Settings->manage profiles. Just set the command to /usr/bin/mc instead of /bin/bash

...

2-Konsole doesn't automatically open the same tabs it closed with (only 1). In KDE3, If I had 2 shells, 1 mc, 1 root mc & 1 root shell in Konsole when I logged off last, then when I log in next, I get all 5 automatically, without having to think about it or figure out what to configure to make it happen.

That's a valid bug, I think. Have you opened one? The session manager should be made to remember those things

Why, are the KDE devs so stupid they can't notice for themselves that they still haven't duplicated this functionality?

Honestly, Anders, you're expecting us to treat the KDE devs as if they are irresponsible 4-year old children. Responding with two aliases to the same post now, aaron? Are you trying to make it look as if you're not alone in your opinion?

Your comments are becoming less and less valid.

Yes, KDE developers need bug reports so they can see which functionality people consider important.

Why should anyone fill out bug reports for obscure functionality when basic functionality is still missing. This is like complaining to an auto-design group that the Heater/ventilaation/air-conditionging (HVAC) system doesn't have automatic temperature controls, when they still haven't even designed doors or body panels yet. The last thing any devs need are premature bug reports.

KDE4 was never intended to be a carbon copy of KDE3, there is a lot of cleaning up being done and functionality that isn't missed by anyone will probably not be added back.

But thanks for encouraging people to not report what features they want to see added back. With any luck you can cause KDE4 to lack those features forever. Bravo

But seriously, one alias at a time, ok?

What are you talking about?

Anders

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Matt Archer wrote:

Anders Johansson wrote:

...

Matt Archer wrote:

...

Responding with two aliases to the same post now, aaron? Are you trying to make it look as if you're not alone in your opinion?

Your comments are becoming less and less valid.

Yes, KDE developers need bug reports so they can see which functionality people consider important.

Why should anyone fill out bug reports for obscure functionality when basic functionality is still missing. You do that because that's the only valid way for people to add in the missing pieces of code. If you don't tell anyone, nothing changes.

In the time that you and the more vocal complainers have spent bitching to the list about 'KDE4 != KDE3', you could probably have filed 10 bugs and started the process of improving KDE. You prefer to bitch instead of doing something positive

This is like complaining to an auto-design group that the Heater/ventilaation/air-conditionging (HVAC) system doesn't have automatic temperature controls, when they still haven't even designed doors or body panels yet.

The last thing any devs need are premature bug reports.

If you're on this list complaining, it's not premature.

...

KDE4 was never intended to be a carbon copy of KDE3, there is a lot of cleaning up being done and functionality that isn't missed by anyone will probably not be added back.

But thanks for encouraging people to not report what features they want to see added back. With any luck you can cause KDE4 to lack those features forever. Bravo

But seriously, one alias at a time, ok?

What are you talking about?

...

Anders

Pete -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sun, Jun 22, 2008 at 05:51:19AM -0400, Matt Archer wrote:

Pete Connolly wrote:

...

Matt Archer wrote:

...

Anders Johansson wrote:

...

Matt Archer wrote:

...

...

Responding with two aliases to the same post now, aaron? Are you trying to make it look as if you're not alone in your opinion?

Your comments are becoming less and less valid.

Yes, KDE developers need bug reports so they can see which functionality people consider important.

Why should anyone fill out bug reports for obscure functionality when basic functionality is still missing. You do that because that's the only valid way for people to add in the missing pieces of code. If you don't tell anyone, nothing changes.

In the time that you and the more vocal complainers have spent bitching to the list about 'KDE4 != KDE3', you could probably have filed 10 bugs and started the process of improving KDE. You prefer to bitch instead of doing something positive

How does telling the devs what they already know, and forcing them to answer inane bug reports improve the process, or do anyhing positive.

Unlike you, the KDE devs fully ACKNOWLEDGE that KDE 4 is grossly incomplete.

Aaron, You made your point and it for sure has been heard. Now close your mailer and step out into the real world for some fresh air. CIao, Marcus -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

* Marcus Meissner [06-22-08 05:54]:

Aaron, You made your point and it for sure has been heard.

Now close your mailer and step out into the real world for some fresh air.

# ------------------------------------------------------- # # bit-bucket: Aaron Kookoo <***@gmail.com> 76.243.106.37 # # ------------------------------------------------------- :0 * ^Received:*76.243.106.37 /dev/null # ------------------------------------------------------- -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Anders Johansson wrote:

On Sunday 22 June 2008 11:51:19 Matt Archer wrote:

...

Unlike you, the KDE devs fully ACKNOWLEDGE that KDE 4 is grossly incomplete.

Where do they do this?

Read Marcus's posting from a few hours ago.

Again, no specifics, just hand waving

So you are now accusing Marcus of lying to us. Interesting.

Anders

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Anders Johansson wrote:

Matt Archer wrote:

...

Anders Johansson wrote:

...

On Sunday 22 June 2008 11:51:19 Matt Archer wrote:

...

Unlike you, the KDE devs fully ACKNOWLEDGE that KDE 4 is grossly incomplete.

Where do they do this?

Read Marcus's posting from a few hours ago.

Marcus is not a KDE dev

Nobody claimed that he is.

Anders

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 2008/06/21 20:59 (GMT+0200) Anders Johansson apparently typed:

On Saturday 21 June 2008 20:45:46 Felix Miata wrote:

...

On 2008/06/21 20:03 (GMT+0200) Anders Johansson apparently typed:

...

...

Please name something vital to the daily functioning of a desktop that is missing from KDE4

...

Probably not vital to many besides myself, but definitely regression:

...

1-mc is missing from Konsole menu, which means mouse can't open mc

That's a profile - you can easily create one yourself in Settings->manage profiles. Just set the command to /usr/bin/mc instead of /bin/bash

It was there by default in KDE3. I've requested it be put back: https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=166565

...

2-Konsole doesn't automatically open the same tabs it closed with (only 1). In KDE3, If I had 2 shells, 1 mc, 1 root mc & 1 root shell in Konsole when I logged off last, then when I log in next, I get all 5 automatically, without having to think about it or figure out what to configure to make it happen.

That's a valid bug, I think. Have you opened one? The session manager should be made to remember those things

I think this is: https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=152761 -- "Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry." Ephesians 4:26 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

(Whoops, sent to John's email account only first time) John Andersen wrote:

On Sat, Jun 21, 2008 at 6:22 AM, Anders Johansson wrote:

...

On Saturday 21 June 2008 15:17:55 Matt Archer wrote:

...

I hear BMW is releasing the 2009 model of the X5...but they haven't quite got everytihng done... so don't bother your little head about the fact that the transmission doesn't have a reverse gear, and engine hood, trunk-lid, doors, and seat-belts are missing, because everything that IS on the car works properly... those other pesky little things, they're going to take care of in the 2009 1/2 model.

But Aaron, instead of trying to be funny, why don't you tell us what it is that you're missing.

Since you're making similies with reverse gears and seat belts in cars, you must be missing some fairly substantial core functionality

So what is it?

As far as I can see, the core stuff is all in place, and what's missing is the niceties.

Niceties? Core stuff?

XFCE4 has core stuff.

Rip out KDE4 and reinstall KDE3.5.9 and you will have before you a complete demonstration of all the things missing from KDE4.

Or better still, run KDE3 and 4 together on the one machine. Subscribe to the KDE 4.1 beta repo and keep your system updated regularly. Try KDE4 whenever you don't have a huge amount of critical work on, and if you find a bug, report it. Both 3.x and 4.x can happily co-exist, which is what I do. 11.0 lets you do this, checking frequently to see the many improvements 4.1 has over time. Eventually, I'll stop logging into 3.x since 4.x will be so good that nothing is missing. Honestly, this is a storm in a teacup - with openSUSE people have a choice. Cheers Pete -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Saturday 21 June 2008 20:51:30 Jerry Houston wrote:

Any advice for getting 4.1? Is it just a matter of adding an online repository, or is there more to it than that?

That's all I did. download.opensuse.org/repositories/KDE:/KDE4:/Factory:/Desktop/openSUSE_11.0 download.opensuse.org/repositories/KDE:/KDE4:/Facory/Extra- Apps/openSUSE_11.0 Then just go to the repositories and select All in this list->update if newer version available Anders -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 21 June 08, Pete Connolly wrote:

(Whoops, sent to John's email account only first time)

John Andersen wrote:

...

On Sat, Jun 21, 2008 at 6:22 AM, Anders Johansson wrote:

...

On Saturday 21 June 2008 15:17:55 Matt Archer wrote:

...

I hear BMW is releasing the 2009 model of the X5...but they haven't quite got everytihng done... so don't bother your little head about the fact that the transmission doesn't have a reverse gear, and engine hood, trunk-lid, doors, and seat-belts are missing, because everything that IS on the car works properly... those other pesky little things, they're going to take care of in the 2009 1/2 model.

But Aaron, instead of trying to be funny, why don't you tell us what it is that you're missing.

Since you're making similies with reverse gears and seat belts in cars, you must be missing some fairly substantial core functionality

So what is it?

As far as I can see, the core stuff is all in place, and what's missing is the niceties.

Niceties? Core stuff?

XFCE4 has core stuff.

Rip out KDE4 and reinstall KDE3.5.9 and you will have before you a complete demonstration of all the things missing from KDE4.

Or better still, run KDE3 and 4 together on the one machine. Subscribe to the KDE 4.1 beta repo and keep your system updated regularly. Try KDE4 whenever you don't have a huge amount of critical work on, and if you find a bug, report it.

That's just great...for people with big fat pipes to download those *huge* files etc. Does anyone think outside the bun anymore except those of us who understand not everyone has or can afford those same big fat pipes? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Saturday 21 June 2008 09:49:04 Benji Weber wrote:

2008/6/21 Matt Archer :

...

Benji Weber wrote:

...

This is rather a misrepresentation. Significant changes were made after the discussion on the lists and bugzilla.

But nowhere close to being what KDE users expect.

What it actually says is:

"KDE 4.0 is the most recent evolution of KDE. It comes with many new KDE technologies, but is less mature than the other desktops."

"KDE 3.5 is the previous generation of the K Desktop Environment. It is mature and stable." [0]

Which I think is fairly clear. There is no default KDE in the DVD installer. While it is not as mature as KDE 3.x, KDE4.0 is now ready for many users. I will not be switching to it myself for a while, but I have specific requirements. KDE 4.x is also what the KDE team have been working on improving and integrating for months, while KDE 3 is pretty much just included in the same state it was in previous releases.

...

Apparently, Novell is trying to push KDE 4 hard so that they can get a lot of fanfare out of beryl... but no matter how good it is, if it's resting on top of an immature version of KDE, who wants or needs it?

What I find somewhat irksome is your analysis of the situation. There was not some mandate from Novell management "Thou shalt use KDE4.0". There was significant discussion with the community with regard to the plans for KDE4.0, on the mailing lists, at project meetings, and on bugzilla. The outcome was to present both the cutting edge KDE4.0 and the stable KDE3.5 to allow users to choose. I notice that many of the people complaining in this thread did not involve themselves in the discussions at the time.

The KDE team who are actually doing the work decided to put all their effort into making KDE4.0 ready. If they were focusing more on KDE 3.x then KDE4.0 would be in a much worse state now than it is. Both upstream and the major downstream distributions are focusing almost entirely on KDE4.0 now. KDE 4.0 is where bugs will be fixed, whereas KDE 3.5 is likely to just stagnate.

If you have stability issues in KDE 4.0 please bug report them(specific, not general), then they can be fixed. Even if a bug seems blindingly obvious to you, it may be that other people have not noticed it, or it does not occur on other configurations.

As for the state of KDE 4.0 being the cause of bad reviews, that is not the case so far. We have headlines such as "openSUSE 11.0 released, offers best KDE 4 experience"[1] and comments such as "The openSUSE version of KDE 4 alone is worth the download"[2] "still I'd rather work on this than 3.5." [3]. While other reviewers have stated that they opted for 3.5 as it is more mature.

__ [0] http://en.opensuse.org/Image:OS11.0-inst-6.jpg [1] http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080620-first-look-opensuse-11-out-of fers-best-kde-4-experience.html [2] http://www.linux.com/feature/139073 [3] http://alternativenayk.wordpress.com/2008/06/20/the-first-24-hours-with-ope nsuse-11-kde-4/

-- Benjamin Weber

This has been discussed many many time for several days on this list before. My personal view is great suse have put out the most stable and complete kde4 available with any current distro. However people who are not familiar with positive vibe type statements about software are likely to be in for a surprise if they go to the trouble of installing with kde4 and find expected software not included or even available and even more surprised as they find bugs. On suse's install some one on here has stated that gnome is top of the list as g comes before K. One has to ask oneself why 3.5..... doesn't come before 4. That would have made the point a lot clearer. Gnome is top of the list. Since the suse statement that g comes before k I've lost all interest in this subject. My belief is that they are chasing ubuntu and head line grabbing. This isn't suse's traditional approach to distro production. Stability was it's byword. Looks like it isn't anymore. Much stressed in my case by 10.3 x86_64. I still await with great interest a statement from suse on their intentions when kde4.1 and 4.1 final appears not long after. Are we all expected to re install the lot again? John -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Benji Weber wrote:

2008/6/21 Matt Archer :

...

Benji Weber wrote:

...

This is rather a misrepresentation. Significant changes were made after the discussion on the lists and bugzilla.

But nowhere close to being what KDE users expect.

What it actually says is:

"KDE 4.0 is the most recent evolution of KDE. It comes with many new KDE technologies, but is less mature than the other desktops."

"KDE 3.5 is the previous generation of the K Desktop Environment. It is mature and stable." [0]

Which I think is fairly clear.

"Missing functionality which KDE users have become accustomed to" would be "fairly clear." "Less mature" is nothing more than an exercise in obfuscation. The more you guys try to bob and weave and deny the truth about this, the more you come off looking like a bunch of dishonest hacks. Are you all auditioning for jobs in Microsoft's marketing department? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sat, Jun 21, 2008 at 6:50 AM, Mike wrote:

On Saturday 21 June 2008 15:06, Matt Archer wrote:

...

Benji Weber wrote:

...

2008/6/21 Matt Archer :

...

"Missing functionality which KDE users have become accustomed to" would be "fairly clear."

"Less mature" is nothing more than an exercise in obfuscation.

The more you guys try to bob and weave and deny the truth about this, the more you come off looking like a bunch of dishonest hacks.

Are you all auditioning for jobs in Microsoft's marketing department?

And besides all the complaining, what have you contributed? You expect perfection when for months it's been known that kde4 wasn't the best but it was usable to a point.

"Usable to a point" is hardly justification for giving it TOP billing in a new Distro. Usable to a point is a perfect definition of "beta". -- ----------JSA--------- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sat, Jun 21, 2008 at 2:56 PM, Philipp Thomas wrote:

On Sat, 21 Jun 2008 10:52:53 -0700, John Andersen wrote:

...

justification for giving it TOP billing in a new Distro.

And the proof of that statement is where?

Philipp --

Right here, in this same thread: http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse/2008-06/msg02102.html The way its defined in the installation choice screen makes it CLEAR that KDE4 is the preferred choice. -- ----------JSA--------- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Jerry Houston wrote:

John Andersen wrote:

...

The way its defined in the installation choice screen makes it CLEAR that KDE4 is the preferred choice.

Indeed. After ironing out a few initial wrinkles, it's certainly MY preferred choice.

I suspect that those who are most annoyed with KDE4 haven't given it much of a chance. I installed it knowing that it isn't as mature as KDE3 is,

That's like saying a new model year of a car that doesn't have a reverse gear in the transmission "isn't as mature" as it's predecessor. No, it's not immature...it's incomplete. Maybe YOU personally never put your car in reverse...but that's still no excuse for designing a transmission without a reverse gear, and presenting it to the public as an improvement. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Jerry Houston wrote:

...

It's time to start on system #3 now, based on what I've learned from updating the others. My Toshiba laptop is about to become a Linux machine again. :-)

Boy, was that ever a case of speaking too soon. :-(

On the laptop, KDE4 is a true pain. The touchpad (ALPS) is recognized by Sax2, but it's dysfunctional, to say the least. I tried to install madwifi, but the published "one click" link ends up without the

On Sat June 21 2008 10:58:42 pm Jerry Houston wrote: metadata

needed to identify the rpm. Going to the madwifi site, I got the driver installed (I think), but no luck connecting to my router. This all on a machine that used to work flawlessly with the touchpad and Atheros wireless with 10.3/KDE3.

I'm going to add KDE3 to that machine and try a session with that. If I can get things working, they may still keep working for a KDE4 session. That, or I'll just continue using KDE3 on that machine. It sure doesn't like the new bits very much.

Anyone else have different luck with a Toshiba Satellite laptop? I have installed openSuSE 11.0 w/KDE 4 only on my Toshiba A135- S4427 and the only problem was with the KNetManager with my Intel 3945, but once I switch to the Traditional, it has been smooth sailing every since.

I fail to see all this negativity being said here. No one is forcing anyone to install KDE 4 over 3.5 and it is certainly not to me as a very casual user being pushed over 3.5.9. I understand the plain English of the choice and don't take the order of listing as the order of recommended choice. To all of those saying it has been on the lists for months, I have read them all and still chose to go with KDE4 as my Desktop -- my choice and fail to see any of this ranting going on here. Jeez, it is stuff like this I think that gives Linux a bad name to begin with. Goodnight, I am tired of this thread. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

John Andersen wrote:

On Sat, Jun 21, 2008 at 2:56 PM, Philipp Thomas wrote:

...

On Sat, 21 Jun 2008 10:52:53 -0700, John Andersen wrote:

...

justification for giving it TOP billing in a new Distro. And the proof of that statement is where?

Philipp --

Right here, in this same thread:

http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse/2008-06/msg02102.html

The way its defined in the installation choice screen makes it CLEAR that KDE4 is the preferred choice.

What I want to know is... why is the SUSE team so hot to present KDE 4 as being better than the current, and near future state of development justifies? Exactly what is in it for them to fool as many new users into installing KDE 4 instead of KDE 3.x? Something smells to high heaven here. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Philipp Thomas wrote:

On Sat, 21 Jun 2008 10:52:53 -0700, John Andersen wrote:

...

justification for giving it TOP billing in a new Distro.

And the proof of that statement is where?

Are you daft? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Doug McGarrett wrote: [snip]

If I have an old edition of KDE (from SuSE 9.3) will it run, and how do I go about keeping it when installing 11.0, which should be here in a day or two? I am perfectly happy wioth the old KDE, and the only reason I am going to 11.0 is (hopefully) better printer and sound support.

Doug, I've done a number of systems since Thurs., most have been upgrades. MOST go fine.....KDE 3.5* goes on like a glove. Now, there have been a few glitches, most with laptops and Intel wireless, IF upgrading. If updating from 11.0 RC1, then all goes well, no matter what system. I had to do a fresh install tonight on a Toshiba laptop with the Intel 3945 wifi chipset because an upgrade just wouldn't allow it to connect - period. What I found, as it true for most of us for years, is that if you want to make certain that an "upgrade" goes perfectly well, do a fresh install with "custom" partitianing so you keep your /home dirs. Choose KDE 3.5 during the install and I think you'll be fine. Hope this helps, Fred -- Linux is an old Latin word meaning, "I don't have to support your Windows anymore." -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Friday 20 June 2008 10:38:21 pm John Andersen wrote:

What's the point?  The KDE team know all the things that are missing.

Something will be added first, vote for that with bug report. -- Regards, Rajko http://en.opensuse.org/Portal needs helpful hands. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Saturday 21 June 2008 07:09:51 Raskolnikov Tkachuk wrote:

Rajko M. wrote:

...

On Friday 20 June 2008 10:38:21 pm John Andersen wrote:

...

What's the point? The KDE team know all the things that are missing.

Something will be added first, vote for that with bug report.

How about: Don't release incomplete software without explicitly labeling it as ALPHA.

Hi Aaron, It's not incomplete and it's not alpha. It just doesn't have everything KDE3 had. Those are two different concepts

If I write a "scientific calculator" and I only implement addition and subtraction and it doesn't crash... it would be downright dishonest to release it as version 1.0, on the grounds that multiply and divide will be introduced in version 1.1, and logrithms, exponentials, powers, and roots will be dribbed out over versions 1.2.x, etc.. and not actually having what anyone REASONABLY expects of a scientific calculator in version 1.5.

That's just silly. KDE4 has more functionality than most window managers. It just doesn't have everything KDE3 had, but if you need all that, just use KDE3. It's still there and still supported Anders -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Thierry de Coulon wrote:

On Saturday 21 June 2008, Anders Johansson wrote:

...

It's not incomplete and it's not alpha. It just doesn't have everything KDE3 had. Those are two different concepts

This is developper language. I understand that what's "under the hood" is the most important - to the developpers. But since *most* people tend to think that if the number is higher, the software must be "better", they expect to get a KDE 4 working like KDE 3 at user level. And it does not.

The "first impression" one gets from a desktop environment is... the desktop. So, if the Desktop sucks, and you just tell the people this will be cured later, to them it's "incomplete" and "not finished" and "beta".

Please consider the following: Suppose you are a frustrated Vista user and you finally get it in your head to try Linux. You know nothing about KDE 3/4, beta/alpha, KDE/Gnome/X/whatever window manager, you just know you bought this box of SuSE software down at Fry's and you're gonna install the thing. You select what appears to be the default installation (remember, you don't know what a KDE is). Will you be happy with the end result? -- Tony Alfrey tonyalfrey@earthlink.net "I'd Rather Be Sailing" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Rajko M. wrote:

On Saturday 21 June 2008 03:46:53 am Tony Alfrey wrote:

...

Please consider the following:

Suppose you are a frustrated Vista user and you finally get it in your head to try Linux. You know nothing about KDE 3/4, beta/alpha, KDE/Gnome/X/whatever window manager, you just know you bought this box of SuSE software down at Fry's and you're gonna install the thing. You select what appears to be the default installation (remember, you don't know what a KDE is). Will you be happy with the end result?

Think again Tony.

No, *you* think again. The objective IMHO is to provide an alternative to Windoze that does not require 10 years of *nix experience. <snip>

At best I will ask Google, and then I will learn what is GNOME and KDE, see zillion warnings that KDE4 is not ready for prime time, and then conclude: - KDE3 is lower version, - it is put in third position by vendor, who knows their products so I'll stick with GNOME. It is in the first place in the list and if I don't know what is good, vendor knows. End of story.

And it may, indeed, be the "end of story" at that point. Will the new SuSE user who is testing out an alternative from Vista then be happy with the results following the scenario which you describe? In all fairness, I must say that I've not yet tried 11.0 and/or KDE4. But if many of you experts are having reservations, I will certainly be cautious until I hear that it "is soup", as we say. And I must also say that, while the style of criticism of some may be out of line, I'm also puzzled by what seems to be a defensive reaction of some who are apparently closely involved with the actual product development, but who are reluctant to take product feedback seriously. This is not FUD being delivered by some M$ troll, this is serious feedback delivered by serious linux users. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Anders Johansson wrote:

On Saturday 21 June 2008 20:28:08 Tony Alfrey wrote:

...

In all fairness, I must say that I've not yet tried 11.0 and/or KDE4. But if many of you experts are having reservations,

The "experts" you're talking about haven't tried it themselves.

Wait until you see the detailed bug reports. These people have been on the lists for a very long time, and if they had something real to point to, they would say so. They have done in the past, and the fact that all they're doing now is hand waving can only mean they haven't actually looked at it yet

Bug reports? Code that doesn't even exist yet? How many times do we have to tell you that the problem is not bugs, it's MISSING functionality? How you do write a bug report for something the dev's haven't even got around to yet?????? And quit playing dumb it's unbecoming. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Anders Johansson wrote:

Aaron Kulkis wrote:

Come on Aaron, you can do better than that. I asked for missing core functionality. Can you point to it or can't you?

Got amnesia? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Anders Johansson wrote:

On Sunday 22 June 2008 10:26:16 Matt Archer wrote:

...

Anders Johansson wrote:

...

Aaron Kulkis wrote:

Come on Aaron, you can do better than that. I asked for missing core functionality. Can you point to it or can't you? Got amnesia?

No. So far I have asked on multiple occasions for missing core features.

You and the rest of the suse.de gang havve been giving everyone on this list the brush off for months, and NOW you want "answers". We've already told you...time after time after time after time. If you didn't care to pay attention the first time, why in the world should I, or anyone else believe that you're going to pay attention this time. Your mentally-disabled child routine is getting old...REAL old. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Anders Johansson wrote:

On Sunday 22 June 2008 11:40:37 Raskolnikov Tkachuk wrote:

...

...

On Sunday 22 June 2008 10:26:16 Matt Archer wrote:

...

Anders Johansson wrote:

...

Aaron Kulkis wrote:

Come on Aaron, you can do better than that. I asked for missing core functionality. Can you point to it or can't you? Got amnesia? No. So far I have asked on multiple occasions for missing core features. You and the rest of the suse.de gang havve been giving everyone on

Anders Johansson wrote: this list the brush off for months, and NOW you want "answers".

We've already told you...time after time after time after time.

Using the royal pronoun now?

...

If you didn't care to pay attention the first time, why in the world should I, or anyone else believe that you're going to pay attention this time.

Your mentally-disabled child routine is getting old...REAL old.

For months you've been saying that KDE4 isn't ready, but in that time an enormous amount of work has been done.

So ... .what. A lot of work gets done on a car design in three months. That doesn't mean it's the LAST three months needed to get the car design to be complete enough to set up an assembly line for it. It takes a couple YEARS for a car design to be complete. KDE is a project along similar lines... yes, a lot of work was done in a few months...but not nearly enough. How dare you try to continually present a go-kart as a luxury automobile.

So much, in fact, that you can't seem to point out any specific problems you're having. So I don't know what you

Would repeating them for you..yet again..do anything? You've already read them before. If you couldn't pay attention the first time, that's YOUR fault.

mean by "brush-off". It seems the devels have responded by providing a very

Brush off means to give a condescending answer that doesn't ACTUALLY answer the subject of the discussion.

good version of KDE4 in 11.0, and unless you can point to specific problems, I don't see why anyone should take you seriously

Keep up that attitude, Anders, and a year from now, you'll be out on the streets, looking for a job, because SUSE won't be making money any more.

Anders

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Anders Johansson wrote:

Matt Archer wrote:

...

Would repeating them for you..yet again..do anything?

Saying something for the first time does not constitute repeating. You still haven't presented a single real substantial problem. It's all just been hand waving from day one

Anders, in case you haven't figured it out, I'm not playing this little game you have in mind. Either you pay attention the first time, or you don't. I have no desire to play the part of memory monkey every time you pretend to have forgotten or never read something. Start acting like a responsiblle adult, and I might just begin to respect you -- but so far, you're failing. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Matt Archer wrote:

Anders Johansson wrote:

...

Aaron Kulkis wrote:

Come on Aaron, you can do better than that. I asked for missing core functionality. Can you point to it or can't you?

Got amnesia?

Answer the question, with details please. Otherwise you and the other detractors are just spreading FUD. I don't know what your agenda is, but it doesn't seem to be the improvement of either opensuse 11 or KDE. Contribute, not just with bitching. Pete -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Saturday 21 June 2008 20:28:08 Tony Alfrey wrote:

In all fairness, I must say that I've not yet tried 11.0 and/or KDE4. But if many of you experts are having reservations, I will certainly be

I have the impression most of the self-appointed experts here haven't either. Bye, Steve -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Saturday 21 June 2008 01:28:08 pm Tony Alfrey wrote:

...

Think again Tony.

No, *you* think again.  The objective IMHO is to provide an alternative to Windoze that does not require 10 years of *nix experience.

No need for snip :) [1] While objective is for sure to make transition easy in both major desktops we argue about options that are most likely not in focus of first time Linux user and why is explained in the following paragraph:

...

At best I will ask Google, and then I will learn what is GNOME and KDE, see zillion warnings that KDE4 is not ready for prime time, and then conclude: - KDE3 is lower version, - it is put in third position by vendor, who knows their products so I'll stick with GNOME. It is in the first place in the list and if I don't know what is good, vendor knows. End of story.

And it may, indeed, be the "end of story" at that point.  Will the new SuSE user who is testing out an alternative from Vista then be happy with the results following the scenario which you describe?

GNOME is desktop that I abandoned because it was buggy few years ago when I tried it. In the meantime I learned a lot about KDE and I don't plan to learn GNOME too, so I stick with KDE. Your question in context is actually "How good is GNOME for new users?" and that I can answer only using derived information from fact that: Ubuntu, Fedora, SLED and SLES have GNOME, so it is for sure not that bad as it was at the time I left it. Actually,

In all fairness, I must say that I've not yet tried 11.0 and/or KDE4. But if many of you experts are having reservations,

You have 2 answers to this as I came to this point ;)

I will certainly be cautious until I hear that it "is soup", as we say.  

Well. Some of "experts" based their claims in previous discussions on facts few months old. With KDE4 development running like express train that was completely out of place, but for people like you, that don't look at KDE4 closely it may sound as correct. How fast they clean up bugs? I had chance to catch only few that other didn't, but solution was very often in the same evening. Now you can see how relevant is talk based on last month information, and I have seen comments based on last December status.

And I must also say that, while the style of criticism of some may be out of line, I'm also puzzled by what seems to be a defensive reaction of some who are apparently closely involved with the actual product development, but who are reluctant to take product feedback seriously.  

From speed they clean bugs, you can see that they are very serious taking feedback. They just don't have time to answer on all empty stories launched by people that have too much time on their hands. If you have a specific problem, that is not general "I need more options" subscribe to opensuse-kde@opensuse.org and you will see how fast they are.

This is not FUD being delivered by some M$ troll, this is serious feedback delivered by serious linux users.

If I would think it is trolling, I would not spent time writing this. I'm typing slow. [1] Quoting only what reply is related to doesn't require <snips>. I used them too, but the style of all mails that I consider readable, and I would like to apply to my answers, is to quote just the most relevant portion, few words, one line that answer is related. -- Regards, Rajko http://en.opensuse.org/Portal needs helpful hands. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Saturday 21 June 2008 08:13:03 pm Raskolnikov Tkachuk wrote:

Who'se talking about GNOME?

The one that talks about unsuspected user that will choose KDE4 because it is first in the list. You may try to install openSUSE 11.0 and then talk again. -- Regards, Rajko http://en.opensuse.org/Portal needs helpful hands. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Saturday 21 June 2008 09:53:51 pm Raskolnikov Tkachuk wrote: ...

Yes...it's the FIRST version of KDE listed, and not marked with nearly enough warning that it's incomplete, and completely UNLIKE what they might have heard about the KDE that people have been running for years (KDE 3.x).

So what in your parlance: - complete - what is enough marking It seems that there is difference what in definitions we use. Besides, boys and girls that decide to have Linux are smart enough to understand messages. Insisting on more markings is insult to their intellect.

...

You may try to install openSUSE 11.0 and then talk again.

I did. DUH!

Are you sure? If you don't see difference between Schneider and Schnieder how you can be sure for 11.0 and 10.1. -- Regards, Rajko http://en.opensuse.org/Portal needs helpful hands. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sunday 22 June 2008, Rajko M. wrote:

On Saturday 21 June 2008 09:53:51 pm Raskolnikov Tkachuk wrote: ...

...

Yes...it's the FIRST version of KDE listed, and not marked with nearly enough warning that it's incomplete, and completely UNLIKE what they might have heard about the KDE that people have been running for years (KDE 3.x).

So what in your parlance: - complete - what is enough marking

Thats very easy 1 KDE3 fully functional desktop with no faulty bits that just works 2 KDE4 USE it at your own risk large amounts missing feature missing configs missing function missing 3 GNOME do with as you please -- SuSE Linux 10.3-Alpha3. (Linux is like a wigwam - no Gates, no Windows, and an Apache inside.) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sunday 22 June 2008, Carlos E. R. wrote:

The Sunday 2008-06-22 at 09:08 +0100, peter nikolic wrote:

...

On Sunday 22 June 2008, Rajko M. wrote:

...

On Saturday 21 June 2008 09:53:51 pm Raskolnikov Tkachuk wrote: ...

...

Yes...it's the FIRST version of KDE listed, and not marked with nearly enough warning that it's incomplete, and completely UNLIKE what they might have heard about the KDE that people have been running for years (KDE 3.x).

So what in your parlance: - complete - what is enough marking

Thats very easy

1 KDE3 fully functional desktop with no faulty bits that just works

2 KDE4 USE it at your own risk large amounts missing feature missing configs missing function missing

3 GNOME do with as you please

And why do you have to insult gnome and its users? I find that line offensive.

-- Cheers, Carlos E. R.

Well edit to suit your tastes then it is not an INSULT at all so go reboot your brain and re-read the comment . I personally have no use for Gnome at all and think it sucks but i keep that to my self and just dont use it if you want to cahnge the Gnome to suit your tastes be my guest just dont give me a hard time for something it is not .. -- SuSE Linux 10.3-Alpha3. (Linux is like a wigwam - no Gates, no Windows, and an Apache inside.) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Saturday 21 June 2008 07:09, Raskolnikov Tkachuk wrote:

This is "a crock of shit, and it stinks"...please stop trying to pass it off as "a vessel which contains something which promotes growth and is extremely powerful"

1. We know better

2. It makes SUSE and Novell look exceedingly dishonest for not being completely honest about the current state of KDE 4.

3. You're making a VERY bad impression on first-time SUSE Linux users -- especially those who have never used Linux and/or KDE before.

4. We told you so.

5. We told you so.

6. For how many months have we been telling you this, and you all refused to listen.

Besides complaining, what have you contributed? Development? Bug Reports? How about just something constructive? Just a thought. Mike -- Powered by SuSE 10.0 Kernel 2.6.13 X86_64 KDE 3.4 Kmail 1.8 10:41am up 3 days 1:50, 5 users, load average: 2.06, 2.11, 2.14 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sat, 21 Jun 2008 09:01:59 -0400, Raskolnikov Tkachuk wrote:

Advice to NOT promote the incomplete software.

Without a sound reasoning, i.e. telling them specifically what you think is missing *nobody* will regard such advice, specially when it comes from people with your reputation. Philipp -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Cristian Rodríguez wrote:

John Andersen escribió:

...

SO expect this to be a common thread here on this list. KDE4 Rants are just beginning.

What about stopping ranting and start to fill bug reports ?

You think the KDE devs don't know that massive blocks of functionality are still missing? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org