On 2/28/2012 11:27 AM, Greg Freemyer wrote:
On Tue, Feb 28, 2012 at 11:11 AM, Brian K. Whitebrian@aljex.com wrote:
On 2/27/2012 6:01 PM, Greg Freemyer wrote:
On Tue, Feb 21, 2012 at 11:47 AM, Ken Schneider
<snip> > > > > PLEASE keep replies to the list. And no, using gmail is *not* an excuse. > > Why the frack people cannot understand that using the list automatically > sends a copy to the list members and you have to be a list member to post > to > the list. > > > -- > Ken Schneider > SuSe since Version 5.2, June 1998
I'm on a dozen plus lists. Several are mandatory reply all (lkml and its siblings).
Some are reply-all desired (opensuse-kernel, opensuse-project, and few more in this family.) Mostly these are ones where the serious developers hang out. They like reply-all for reasons I won't go into.
Most lists are indifferent.
And then there is email@example.com. It's netiquette here that it be "reply to list" only.
I've for years tried to remember that it is special, but at this point I'm no longer willing to try. So you have 2 choices.
Accept I'm a pain in your behind and get past it.
Ask me to blackball your posts so I won't answer them again.
You'll probably want to blacklist me in turn so you don't waste energy answering some question of mine.
I know Ken's not the only one who dislikes it when people reply-to-all. Feel free to ask me to blackball your posts from my inbox as well.
But he's right.
- We're all already on the list. It's annoying and stupid to receive two
copies of things.
It's annoying to possibly reply to the wrong copy.
It fills up inboxes on mobile devices and crapola web mail interfaces
that we sometimes have to use in between access to fully nice configured mail clients with 57 mail rules to move hundreds of incoming mails per day from many lists and various automated admin messages from servers and daemons and web sites into manageable folders.
- And as you just admitted, the stated nettiquet here is even officially
- All this is bad enough when one or a few people ignore it. If everyone
did it it would be 300 times worse.
You telling everyone else on the list to get over it and accept that you will knowingly ignore the lists protocols does not seem like the correct outcome.
Thank you for your inconsideration. May we all refrain from returning the favor.
For instance, to send this reply, I pressed "reply to list" button in my mail client. Were I not using a full mail client that had a nice convenient reply-to-list button, I'd simply have manually removed the "To: Greg Freemyer" line that my android or webmail client might have added. It's just common courtesy. It shows I care the teeniest bit about your time and your inbox and your net connection and the list servers net connection and workload. It's only a tiny thing, that one extra message, but see what happens is, If I do this every time instead of just this one time, and if everyone else does it also instead of just me, it makes a big difference. And if no one does it, ever, that also makes a big difference. I learned this "everyone has to do their little part to make the whole come out better" in kindergarden.
I'm not arguing that the netiquette be changed. I am saying in general I choose to no longer follow that aspect of it. And any that want to may ask me to blacklist their postings so I won't offend them by doing a reply all that includes them.
FYI: I see you on other opensuse lists like -project, -factory, etc. At least some of them are "open" to non-subscribers. Thus if a non-subscriber posts they will only see the answer if reply-all is used. That is done because opensuse has 100+ lists. Having many of the specialized lists like -packaging, -kernel, etc. open allows anyone in the community to post to them and get answers without having to be subscribed to dozens of lists.
That is the model LKML has used for at least a decade, so many of the core developers use it automatically.
Does anyone but Henne even know which opensuse lists are open and which aren't? Do you take care to reply-all on the open lists, and only reply-to-list on the closed ones. Not doing a reply all on the open lists is more than inconsiderate, it causes those lists to not actually work the way they are designed.
I always reply to wherever I received something from with very very few exceptions, namely when the sender made a mistake and sent to me directly when they clearly intended it to go to a list.
If I receive something from a list I reply to that list and am only interested in dealing with that conversation via the list, because I specifically want the entire conversation to happen in public and be archived.
Direct personal emails are reserved for personal friends and customers that are paying for the privilege. I'll spend time for free on mail lists because I see that as a worthy investment in the community. I'll answer questions that take hours to develop and test for free on a list because then it's documented in public and archived, and that time I spent isn't just going to one person who is neither my personal friend nor a customer who paid me for it. It's public documentation and reference which is useful to me in the future and useful to everyone else now and in the future.
If someone want's to participate on those terms, well that's great. But if someone wants to cash in on the goods without playing by the same rules as the people _helping them out for free_ well that's just too bad. It's kind of like the gpl in a way. You don't have to use gpl software, but if you do, you have to play by the rules that says you can't just take the goods in one direction to yourself, you have to give back and give forward the same stuff to everyone else. If you don't like it or don't understand why that rule is critical, then by all means, don't play by it, and, don't use any gpl software.