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On Monday 2008-09-29 at 10:36 +0200, Karl Eichwalder wrote:

El 2008-09-29 a las 10:36 +0200, Karl Eichwalder escribió:

Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2008 10:36:39 +0200 From: Karl Eichwalder ke@suse.de Reply-To: OS-trans opensuse-translation@opensuse.org To: ¡ElCheVive! elchevive68@gmail.com Cc: opensuse-translation@opensuse.org Subject: Re: [opensuse-translation] Do not translate <placeholder-X/> tags

"¡ElCheVive!" elchevive68@gmail.com writes:

...

Any reason for that?

xml2po tries to avoid HTML inline tags. If you see:

#: help-boot.html:135(em) msgid "splash=silent" msgstr ""

#: help-boot.html:135(li) msgid "<placeholder-1/> -- Activates splash, but no messages. Instead a progress bar is drawn." msgstr ""

<placeholder-1/> expands to the previous msgid plus the HTML tag given in the source reference in parentheses:

msgid "<em>splash=silent</em> -- Activates splash, but no messages. Instead a progress bar is drawn."

That's just the way it works. I tried other options, but they were not as reliable as I'd like to see them.

Not %s?

Mmmm. Interesting. Perhaps you could consider a small readme for translators in the po directory? There are things translators should know about the files they translate, but many are just know-how that only the last translator konws, and lost on the next round.

Best thing would be for the po format to have a "file comment" field at the beginning.

Perhpaps, a hack:

msgid "AAAAAAA-sorting-hack - file readme for translator" msgstr "not used"

- -- Cheers, Carlos E. R.

"¡ElCheVive!" elchevive68@gmail.com writes:

2008/9/29 Karl Eichwalder ke@suse.de:

...

xml2po tries to avoid HTML inline tags. If you see:

#: help-boot.html:135(em) msgid "splash=silent" msgstr ""

#: help-boot.html:135(li) msgid "<placeholder-1/> -- Activates splash, but no messages. Instead a progress bar is drawn." msgstr ""

<placeholder-1/> expands to the previous msgid plus the HTML tag given in the source reference in parentheses:

msgid "<em>splash=silent</em> -- Activates splash, but no messages. Instead a progress bar is drawn."

That's just the way it works. I tried other options, but they were not as reliable as I'd like to see them.

So, to make clear, we should empty the translations fields (msgstr) when the <placeholder-X/> appears, just copy the original string to the translation, or do not translate the tag only <placeholder-X/> for eg.:

msgid "<placeholder-1/> -- Activates splash, but no messages. Instead a progress bar is drawn." msgstr "<placeholder-1/> -- influenciar o comportamento da tela de inicialização."

Do not translate <placeholder-1/> etc. These translations are wrong:

af/navi.html: <plekhouer-1>

de/opt::o_splash.html: <placehoder-3>

xh/navi.html: <kumgcinisithuba-1>

af/navi.html: <plekhouer-1/>

de/main::opt::o_splash.html: <placehoder-3/>

ja/main::linux.html: <placeholder-3/> <= placeholder-2

pt_BR/main::memtest.html: <placeholder-2/> <= probably fixed by now?

xh/navi.html: <kumgcinisithuba-1/>

"Carlos E. R." robin.listas@telefonica.net writes:

On Monday 2008-09-29 at 17:06 +0200, Karl Eichwalder wrote:

...

Do not translate <placeholder-1/> etc. These translations are wrong:

Maybe you could modify the validation script on your svn server to reject those when trying to upload :-?

I'd rather say enhancing "msgfmt --check" resp. "--check-format" would be the way to go. Thus all projects can make use of it.

Bruno, some background information: xml2po coming with gnome-doc-utils converts XML and HTML files to POT files. While segmenting inline tags such as <em> or <a> are converted to separate messages and replaced with <placeholder-X/> tags. Example:

<li><em>apm=off</em> -- switch off APM completely</li>

==>

#: help-boot.html:102(em) msgid "apm=off" msgstr ""

#: help-boot.html:102(li) msgid "<placeholder-1/> -- switch off APM completely" msgstr ""

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- cut here -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Now we must make sure translators do not translate the <placeholder-X/> tags incidentally. <placeholder-X/ must occur in the msgstr, too. Correct German translation:

#: help-boot.html:78(em) msgid "acpi=off" msgstr "acpi=off"

#: help-boot.html:78(li) msgid "<placeholder-1/> -- switch off ACPI completely" msgstr "<placeholder-1/> -- ACPI komplett abschalten"

Here is a minimal test script:

"Carlos E. R." robin.listas@telefonica.net writes:

...

#: help-boot.html:78(em) msgid "acpi=off" msgstr "acpi=off"

If a message is not to be translated at all, like the above, it should not even appear in the pot/po files. It is confussing, most translators are not programmers.

At least, add a comment for translator "do not translate" on each one.

Sure, but I do not know whether xml2po supports comments at all. This must be reported upstream.

BTW, translators are able to learn :) And: If in doubt, do not translate but keep it literally.

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On Tuesday 2008-09-30 at 16:53 +0200, Vincent Untz wrote:

Le mardi 30 septembre 2008, à 16:03 +0200, Karl Eichwalder a écrit :

...

BTW, translators are able to learn :) And: If in doubt, do not translate but keep it literally.

Or ask :-)

Ha! :-) If we were to ask everything we have doubts about, you'd be pestered under >.-)

We are continuously asking one another how on earth to translate that programmesse word, don't have time to ask silly questions about tokens and such. Oops! kde/gnome broke, I think it was a bad translation string :-P

(Joking)

No, seriously, it is not practical. If a word in the msgid must not be translated, this must be written in the comments. There are too many of them for us to be sending an email or a bugzilla for each one, there may be hundreds.

Let me see, I have a list somewhere of some errors...

[audit-laf]

]<p><b>Dispatcher</b>: The dispatcher program is started by the audit daemon and\n ]gets all audit events on stdin.</p>

¿Dispatcher is a token? There are many such in the file, config works to be used on some file, if translated config will fail. But it is not easy to know if it is config word or not. And I haven't even run that Yast module. If I translate, I don't test, and viceversa, no time for both :-)

] The 'apparmor' kernel module is loaded\n ]which needs the audit daemon to log events. \n ]Do you want to start the daemon now?

The use of "which" above is difficult to understand. There is also an space before " The".

]M&aximum File Size Action

Can the accel be accented, for correct orthography, but at the same time, use "a" instead of "á" for the keyboard?

]Tamaño m&áximo de acción de archivo

Ie, display "maximo", but work as if accel key is "&a"

Of course, I have no idea what "Maximum File Size Action" is, so my translation is just a guess. A not very educated guess, I'm afraid.

Those are my doubts on that file. Ah, another file:

#: src/mail-server_dialogs.ycp:699 msgid "Count of Virsus Scanner Process"

Virsus?

And more I have forgotten about.

- -- Cheers, Carlos E. R.

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On Wednesday, 2008-10-01 at 11:03 +0200, Vincent Untz wrote:

...

Let me see, I have a list somewhere of some errors...

So we're not talking about the same thing. I was talking about stuff like <placeholder-1/> which is some xml2po stuff, and you're talking about typo or lack of translator comments in the doc.

FWIW, xml2po support translator comments: just put

<!-- Translators: stdin should not be translated -->

before the relevant node in the docbook file.

But again, if you want to see the docs improved, file bugs. That's what we do in GNOME -- each time a translator sees a typo or something that looks ambiguous, he files a bug. And that really helps everybody in the long term.

A different Bugzilla for each typo? That's a lot of bugzillas, it takes time.

Notice that each file has a field in the headers, like:

Project-Id-Version: audit-laf\n Report-Msgid-Bugs-To: \n

See that it is empty. Projects usually fill an email addr or http link in here. In our team we make a point of correctly filling our two fields:

Last-Translator: ..... <....@.....>\n Language-Team: Spanish opensuse-translation-es@opensuse.org\n

so that we can be contacted.

Each developer team could fill an address in "Report-Msgid-Bugs-To" where we could post the errors. Even if it is a single person for all, doing the screening. It would be faster than having to fill a bugzilla for each typo: usually we don't bother.

- -- Cheers, Carlos E. R.

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On Saturday, 2008-10-18 at 16:39 +0200, Freek de Kruijf wrote:

Op zaterdag 18 oktober 2008, schreef Carlos E. R.:

...

A different Bugzilla for each typo? That's a lot of bugzillas, it takes time.

I do in principle one bugzilla for one po-file, but sometimes the bug has been assigned so fast that the next bug needs a a new one.

Mmmm...

...

Notice that each file has a field in the headers, like:

Project-Id-Version: audit-laf\n Report-Msgid-Bugs-To: \n

This is about msgid's, which are the English messages. Errors in msgstr's should be send to the Language team in my opinion.

I'm talking about the English messages, not the translated ones. The header on who to report to is empty.

...

See that it is empty. Projects usually fill an email addr or http link in here. In our team we make a point of correctly filling our two fields:

Last-Translator: ..... <....@.....>\n Language-Team: Spanish opensuse-translation-es@opensuse.org\n

so that we can be contacted.

Each developer team could fill an address in "Report-Msgid-Bugs-To" where we could post the errors. Even if it is a single person for all, doing the screening. It would be faster than having to fill a bugzilla for each typo: usually we don't bother.

I do in bugzilla.novell.com. Just have a window open on that site while translating and log in. So it only takes a minute to enter a bug report. I often get a "thank you".

Well... might work, but on some files I'm working for more than a day, and I don't think I can keep a bugzilla report open more than a few hours while I fill in every thing I find.

I usually type my findings on an editor, or as comments on the .po file.

- -- Cheers, Carlos E. R.

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Freek de Kruijf escribió:

Op zaterdag 18 oktober 2008, schreef Carlos E. R.:

...

Well... might work, but on some files I'm working for more than a day, and I don't think I can keep a bugzilla report open more than a few hours while I fill in every thing I find.

I enter one "typo" in a bug report. It is not necessary to keep that one open. You can always enter some comment, which could be another typo. One time I got the comment not to enter two issues in one bug report, but that was with a non-translation related issue. Entering more than one "typo" in a bug report has not raised any comment this far. But I don't enter anything more after it has been assigned to a maintainer.

...

I usually type my findings on an editor, or as comments on the .po file.

That's another way of working. When finished with the po-file you can enter that text in the issue field of the bug report.

What I do is to open one bug report per file, not per bug. Is the same developer who will correct them, so I think is easier for him/her this way.

- -- Kind regards.

Op zaterdag 18 oktober 2008, schreef Carlos E. R.:

I have more questions. You asked for them ;-) (big cheek)

...

...

[audit-laf]

#. rules dialog help 4/6 #: src/helps.ycp:124 msgid "" "<p>This module also allows you to edit the rules manually. <br>\n" "Detailed information about all options gives 'man auditctl'.</p>"

The second line doesn't sound correct in English :-)

To me it sounds as correct English, however including the words "the line command" makes it more clear to understand. The best advice I can give is to file bug report, I did with good results.

msgid "M&aximum File Size Action"

I don't understand this one. Has action a size, or is the file? English is to dense, and I don't know what the yast module audit-laf does, I have no context to go on. Is it an action for a maximum file size? A maximum file size for an action?

I understand this as: The action to be taken when the file size reaches the defined size". Could be something like: start a new file and throw away the oldest file(s) when there are more than 10 files, so only 10 files remain and send a message to a defined mail address.

msgid "Action Mail Account"

what is this one?

From the context I understand this is the mail address to be used when the defined action is about sending a mail message. So a more clear text would replace account with address. File a bug report.

<p><b>Flush</b>: describes how to write the data to disk. If set to\n <i>INCREMANTAL</i> the <b>Frequency</b> parameter tells how many records to

write before\n

issuing an explicit flush to disk.</p>

What is "INCREMANTAL"? Shouldn't it be incremental, with "E"?

You are right, this is a typo. File a bug report on bugzilla.novell.com.

[ntsutils.es.po]

#. a text box #: src/dialogs.ycp:141 msgid "Lines Retrieved from &messages file /" msgstr "Líneas recuperadas del archivo / &messages"

What is the "/" above?

I can't find a ntsutils.*.po nor the text you mentioned in lcn or yast po-files, so this may be an obsolete file.

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On Tuesday 2008-09-30 at 16:03 +0200, Karl Eichwalder wrote:

"Carlos E. R." <> writes:

...

...

#: help-boot.html:78(em) msgid "acpi=off" msgstr "acpi=off"

If a message is not to be translated at all, like the above, it should not even appear in the pot/po files. It is confussing, most translators are not programmers.

At least, add a comment for translator "do not translate" on each one.

Sure, but I do not know whether xml2po supports comments at all. This must be reported upstream.

BTW, translators are able to learn :) And: If in doubt, do not translate but keep it literally.

We can learn... somethings. Programming is a difficult skill. I can understand programmers because I was one, in msdos/windows. I can't program in linux much. Small scripts for day to day use.

An absolute non programmer can not learn those skills easily, but he might be a good translator. We just need, er... ties? to close the gap between both sides.

An most of us are not professional translators. We lack skills, speed, trans-vocabulary...

- -- Cheers, Carlos E. R.