I'm curious - if we can sense and determine the Broadcom chip during system setup, why then can we not add the install_bcm43xx_firmware to the setup, or to "first-boot"? Sort of like we do with the MS fonts? Of course, since we ARE dealing with network drivers, there's always the "chicken and egg" problem. Crap. Jonathon M. Robison Infrastructure Architect, Research Ford Motor Company -----Original Message----- From: Larry Finger [mailto:larry.finger@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Larry Finger Sent: Sunday, September 27, 2009 11:05 PM To: Bernhard Wiedemann Cc: opensuse-testing@opensuse.org Subject: Re: [opensuse-testing] installation report Bernhard Wiedemann wrote:

wontfix: b43 (WLAN) firmware missing -> install_bcm43xx_firmware helps

Just for clarity: This is a "cannot fix" rather than a "won't fix". The copyright on the firmware files is held by Broadcom and they will not give permission to distribute them. The script /usr/sbin/install_bcm43xx_firmware is the most we can do. It downloads driver files that Broadcom had to supply when they were caught in a GPL violation, then extracts the firmware from those files. There is a group in Italy that is working on open-source firmware for the Broadcom chips. Once that package is available, then this whole issue will be avoided. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-testing+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-testing+help@opensuse.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-testing+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-testing+help@opensuse.org

Martin Schlander wrote:

I'm told Ubuntu has something that pops up and tells broadcom wlan owners that they have hardware which requires restricted stuff and then installs it - probably by running a similar script - but the user doesn't have to figure out which chip he has, and then that the script exists for installing the firmware.

I have seen Ubuntu's system in action, and your suggestion is a good one. It should not be too difficult to modify an installation script to detect the presence of a Broadcom chip and do the firmware installation step. As b43 does not support all Broadcom chips, it would also be a useful step to note the unsupported chips and tell the user of their options. These choices would taint their kernel with unlicensed code, thus they should not be done automatically. Larry -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-testing+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-testing+help@opensuse.org

Alberto Passalacqua wrote:

Hi,

because that's not what you need for all the cards. Broadcom provides the Linux STA drivers ( http://www.broadcom.com/support/802.11/linux_sta.php ), which offer excellent functionality on the supported models and are packaged in Packman.

I have heard mixed reports on the excellence of the functionality. Some users claim that the driver is constantly dropping out. Their usage of their own MAC layer, which gets limited testing, is likely the reason.

Ubuntu tool automatically detects if you need them, and retrieves them from a repository. It has been discussed in the past if it was possible to have them included or provided in some other way than unofficial repositories on openSUSE, and the answer was that it is not possible due to legal concerns (violation of the kernel licence according to what Novell kernel developers said).

The Broadcom wl driver contains a binary blob that is not under GPL license. As a result, it cannot be included in openSUSE. In addition, it taints the kernel, which precludes its usage by many of us who routinely test kernels.

I do not know how Ubuntu manages the problem, but Dell provides the same drivers in binary form on the Dell Mini 9 and on other laptops sold with ubuntu and the broadcom cards, for example. It would be interesting to have a deeper insight in what/how they do it. From the licence in the drivers it seems to it *can* be redistributed if the conditions written there are respected.

Yes, the wl driver can be redistributed as long as you are willing to accept their conditions, and the consequences. The open-source driver for BCM43xx devices will always be trying to catch up. From Broadcom's release of a new model, there will be a period of at least two years while the reverse engineering is done and a driver is written. At the moment, I'm working on the specifications for the 802.11n devices while the coders are implementing the specs for low-power 802.11b/g models. Clearly, the wl driver is not optimal, but it is necessary in some instances. My primary goal is to eliminate that need; however, we do need to make it as simple as possible for openSUSE users to get a working wireless driver for their BCM43xx cards. Until the open-source firmware is available, the licensing parameters will require a working Internet connection for any automatic solution, but I would like to see something like Ubuntu's installation script. This code should detect the BCM43xx, determine its identity, and select the appropriate action. If the device is supported by b43/b43legacy, then the firmware should be installed, otherwise the Broadcom wl driver should be installed. Beginners have enough trouble configuring their wireless devices without having to fight to get a working driver loaded. Larry -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-testing+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-testing+help@opensuse.org

Alberto Passalacqua wrote:

...

The Broadcom wl driver contains a binary blob that is not under GPL license. As a result, it cannot be included in openSUSE. In addition, it taints the kernel, which precludes its usage by many of us who routinely test kernels.

This is the reply I got from Novell developers long ago. I cannot explain, in the light of this how can people like DELL and HP can sell systems with it included. In addition Novell uses the same driver packaged for SLE and hosted by Broadcom itself.

SuSE could have, but openSUSE cannot. That is a decision that was made by Novell - only open-licensed software will be distributed. As long as Dell and HP are willing to support their products, they can include any software that they can license.

...

Yes, the wl driver can be redistributed as long as you are willing to accept their conditions, and the consequences.

Consequences? Some kernel developer with a lot of time to waste threating of sueing who distribute the drivers, community people included, as it happened on one openSUSE ML not long ago?

I have no idea what developer and issue that you refer to. The consequence that I was thinking about is the tainting of the kernel, which in turn will eliminate the chance of any serious kernel developer from looking at any kernel oops that pops up.

...

The open-source driver for BCM43xx devices will always be trying to catch up.

Exactly. And that's unfixable without involving the manufacturer, with doubt results, since who opened the driver is not exactly keeping them in good shape (Intel as a first example, both for video and wireless cards).

Broadcom has made their decision. Involving them is not an option.

...

otherwise the Broadcom wl driver should be installed. Beginners have enough trouble configuring their wireless devices without having to fight to get a working driver loaded.

If it can be done, I'm all for it. After all this discussion happened already at least twice in other places in the past, and openSUSE still has to find a solution.

I need to look at the installation scripts to see what I can do. At least I know which devices b43 supports. Larry -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-testing+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-testing+help@opensuse.org

Rajko M. wrote:

Use wire to get system installed and then switch to wireless. (wire included in boxed version :-) )

Unfortunately, there are a number of users that do not have a wired connection, which is why the stickies in the wireless forum show how to install firmware for b43 when you have to sneakernet from Windows. Fortunately, the standard installation does contain the program b43-fwcutter that strips the firmware from one of Broadcom's drivers. Larry -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-testing+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-testing+help@opensuse.org

True, but let's be clear - the last time I tried that cutter, it wasn't the easiest thing in the world. Mind you, Windows drivers were totally unfamiliar to me at the time, but still . . . perhaps it needs a better wrapper program? Something like, "what partition holds your Windows instance?" and it automagically goes from there and does what it needs to do. Jonathon M. Robison Assoc. Inf. Arch. IT Research, ITI 313-323-9529 PCs == Lego; Macs == Barbies; Linux == a pile of I-beams and a box of nuts and bolts. -----Original Message----- From: Larry Finger [mailto:larry.finger@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Larry Finger Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2009 8:10 PM To: Rajko M. Cc: opensuse-testing@opensuse.org Subject: Re: [opensuse-testing] installation report Rajko M. wrote:

Use wire to get system installed and then switch to wireless. (wire included in boxed version :-) )

Unfortunately, there are a number of users that do not have a wired connection, which is why the stickies in the wireless forum show how to install firmware for b43 when you have to sneakernet from Windows. Fortunately, the standard installation does contain the program b43-fwcutter that strips the firmware from one of Broadcom's drivers. Larry -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-testing+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-testing+help@opensuse.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-testing+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-testing+help@opensuse.org

Robison, Jonathon (M.) wrote:

True, but let's be clear - the last time I tried that cutter, it wasn't the easiest thing in the world. Mind you, Windows drivers were totally unfamiliar to me at the time, but still . . . perhaps it needs a better wrapper program? Something like, "what partition holds your Windows instance?" and it automagically goes from there and does what it needs to do.

That suggestion would work if every system on which openSUSE is being installed also has Windows, and if fwcutter supported every Windows driver for BCM43xx ever distributed. It would be relatively easy for a wrapper program to mount all NTFS or VFAT32 partitions and check for the windows/system32 directory; however, the second part is more difficult. Adding a new driver to b43-fwcutter currently requires manual intervention, and automating the actions would be difficult. Larry -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-testing+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-testing+help@opensuse.org