Hi, I've just (partly) finished a Pattern-Selector proposal for new installation/software management. See: http://en.opensuse.org/YaST/Development/Pattern_Selector_Proposal Even if $this one is finished, it's still work in progress: * We'd like not to use RichText * Expandable pattern-groups * Pattern names printed in bold (?) * Possibility to hide the pattern description (?) All ideas are welcome :) Thanks and Bye Lukas PS: We're still 'a bit' limited by UI capabilities, of course ;) -- Lukas Ocilka, YaST Developer (xn--luk-gla45d) ----------------------------------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX, s. r. o., Lihovarska 1060/12, Praha 9, Czech Republic
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Lukas Ocilka wrote:
I've just (partly) finished a Pattern-Selector proposal for new installation/software management.
See: http://en.opensuse.org/YaST/Development/Pattern_Selector_Proposal
It looks pretty sweet but from an usability point of view (even though I'm no usability expert, just gut feeling), wouldn't it be a better idea to have a 2-staged selection ? I mean having a first list (e.g. icons in a first scrollable column on the left) for the categories ("Base technologies", "Desktop functions", ...) and then the detail on the right ? Drawback would be that you can't see everything at once, but you can't do that anyway because the list of options is extremely long.
Even if $this one is finished, it's still work in progress: * We'd like not to use RichText * Expandable pattern-groups * Pattern names printed in bold (?) * Possibility to hide the pattern description (?)
All ideas are welcome :)
cheers - -- -o) Pascal Bleser http://linux01.gwdg.de/~pbleser/ /\\ <pascal.bleser@skynet.be> <guru@unixtech.be> _\_v The more things change, the more they stay insane. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHWc3zr3NMWliFcXcRAszzAKCs8pf9gxEuMOJf8rg3vEd5IebuOwCfVSvs RYqaRSas9+/7C/DmWK7Gxc4= =5sD+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-softwaremgmt+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-softwaremgmt+help@opensuse.org
Hello, on Freitag, 7. Dezember 2007, Pascal Bleser wrote:
Lukas Ocilka wrote:
I've just (partly) finished a Pattern-Selector proposal for new installation/software management.
See: http://en.opensuse.org/YaST/Development/Pattern_Selector_Proposal
It looks pretty sweet but from an usability point of view (even though I'm no usability expert, just gut feeling), wouldn't it be a better idea to have a 2-staged selection ? I mean having a first list (e.g. icons in a first scrollable column on the left) for the categories ("Base technologies", "Desktop functions", ...) and then the detail on the right ?
Sounds like a good idea and is an alternative to the expandable pattern-groups (see below)
Drawback would be that you can't see everything at once, but you can't do that anyway because the list of options is extremely long.
I think we have two usecases: a) users going through all patterns without knowing in advance what they need exactly. Let's call it "window shopping" ;-) In this case the long list as seen on the screenshots (maybe combined with [+] / [-] expand switches) is the best solution. b) users who know exactly what they want to install. In this case a category list would be better. Questions are: - is there a need to see patterns from different groups at once? - do more users fit into a) or b)? Maybe we can have a solution for both usecases by using a category list with links like <a href='#desktop_functions> which is always visible (speaking in CSS: position:fixed). I don't know if this is possible in YaST, but you were asking for ideas, not working solutions ;-)
Even if $this one is finished, it's still work in progress: * We'd like not to use RichText
What's the reason for this?
* Expandable pattern-groups
You mean that there should be a [+] / [-] at "Base Technologies", "Desktop Functions" etc.? Good idea. (Default should be expanded.)
* Pattern names printed in bold (?)
No. The left margin is enough. BTW: I'm not sure if italic for the pattern descriptions is a good idea.
* Possibility to hide the pattern description (?)
With the long list, this would be a very good idea. Minor issue: Is it possible to sort the patterns in each group? A better sort order for base system would IMHO be: - Base System - Enhanced Base System - YaST Installation Packages - Software Management - YaST System Administration - Laptop - Console Tools - AppArmor (compare with the screenshot for current sort oder) Basic ideas when sorting: - Things that are always required first (examples: base system vs. Software Management, Fonts vs. X environment) - Group related things (example: YaST Installation Packages, Software management, YaST System administration) - Sort KDE and Gnome alphabetically to avoid flamewars ;-)) Another idea - not sure if it is a good one ;-) What about integrating all levels into one dialog? first level: pattern groups second level: patterns third level: packages in this pattern The package level should be hidden by default, but easy to open with a [+] or a [Details] link. Advantage would be that you know (and can change) what packages will be installed with a specific pattern. ("I basically want a normal system including Console Tools, but with Emacs instead of vi." - no, this example is not what I would do ;-)) Another question: Will there be changes in the detailed view (aka sw_single in pattern view)? At the moment, there's no way to see the pattern description... (bug 216553 / feature #302961) Hmm, maybe we should discuss pattern view and sw_single (+ inst_source, YOU etc.) as _one_ module (using tabs), since this is what I would see as target. Possible tabs would be: .----------------------. .----------. .----------. .---------. | Installation Sources | | Patterns | | Packages | | Updates | Usage example besides clicking a tab directly: Clicking the "Details" link for a pattern could then switch to the packages tab, in pattern view, with the chosen pattern preselected. Comments welcome ;-) Regards, Christian Boltz -- - New scheduler deployed on friday was buggy, we learn not to deploy larger changes on fridays anymore ;) [Adrian Schröter in opensuse-buildservice] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-softwaremgmt+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-softwaremgmt+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Christian Boltz wrote:
on Freitag, 7. Dezember 2007, Pascal Bleser wrote:
I've just (partly) finished a Pattern-Selector proposal for new installation/software management.
See: http://en.opensuse.org/YaST/Development/Pattern_Selector_Proposal It looks pretty sweet but from an usability point of view (even
Lukas Ocilka wrote: though I'm no usability expert, just gut feeling), wouldn't it be a better idea to have a 2-staged selection ? I mean having a first list (e.g. icons in a first scrollable column on the left) for the categories ("Base technologies", "Desktop functions", ...) and then the detail on the right ?
Sounds like a good idea and is an alternative to the expandable pattern-groups (see below)
Yeah. Something GNUstep and Mac-Finder-alike +----------------------+ +----------------------+ |Base technologies | | | |Graphical environments| | | |Proprietary software | | | |... | | | +----------------------+ +----------------------+ After selecting graphical environments +----------------------+ +----------------------+ |Base technologies | |[ ] Fonts | |GRAPHICAL ENVIRONMENTS|>|[ ] GNOME Desktop | |Proprietary software | |[x] KDE Desktop | |... | |... | +----------------------+ +----------------------+ (uppercase==selected, just for the sake of the ASCII art, translate that to bold or whatever in the UI ;))
Drawback would be that you can't see everything at once, but you can't do that anyway because the list of options is extremely long.
I think we have two usecases:
a) users going through all patterns without knowing in advance what they need exactly. Let's call it "window shopping" ;-) In this case the long list as seen on the screenshots (maybe combined with [+] / [-] expand switches) is the best solution.
b) users who know exactly what they want to install. In this case a category list would be better.
c) users who look for software by purpose ("I want email and office and those cool looking animations") Maybe a list of "favourites" on top (5-6 items at most) would help for this use case. Those should be desktop related ones (off the top of my head: KDE, GNOME, OpenOffice.org, Compiz-Fusion)
Questions are: - is there a need to see patterns from different groups at once?
I don't know. I guess 50% will prefer that, and 50% will prefer the "stepped" selection (as I propose above).
- do more users fit into a) or b)?
I'd put that question the opposite way: whom are the patterns and hence the pattern selection dialog most useful to ? Group (b) sounds more experienced to me, and those can still search for specific packages in YaST's Software Management screen. IMHO the patterns and its selection screen is most useful to target group (a). But that's really just my very personal gut feeling.
Maybe we can have a solution for both usecases by using a category list with links like <a href='#desktop_functions> which is always visible (speaking in CSS: position:fixed).
I don't know if this is possible in YaST, but you were asking for ideas, not working solutions ;-)
Or maybe a group "all".
Even if $this one is finished, it's still work in progress: * We'd like not to use RichText
What's the reason for this?
* Expandable pattern-groups
You mean that there should be a [+] / [-] at "Base Technologies", "Desktop Functions" etc.?
Good idea. (Default should be expanded.)
Not sure it is such a good idea. Default should definitely be expanded, as everything that isn't, is hidden at first. As said above, IMO the target group for that screen is really the less experienced user.
* Pattern names printed in bold (?)
No. The left margin is enough. BTW: I'm not sure if italic for the pattern descriptions is a good idea.
It isn't [a good idea].
* Possibility to hide the pattern description (?)
With the long list, this would be a very good idea.
hmh. But how understandable is "Enhanced base system" or "Console tools" without its description ? Or what's the difference between "KDE Desktop Environment" and "KDE Base System" without the descriptions ?
Minor issue: Is it possible to sort the patterns in each group? A better sort order for base system would IMHO be: - Base System - Enhanced Base System - YaST Installation Packages - Software Management - YaST System Administration - Laptop - Console Tools - AppArmor (compare with the screenshot for current sort oder)
Basic ideas when sorting: - Things that are always required first (examples: base system vs. Software Management, Fonts vs. X environment)
Good idea.
- Group related things (example: YaST Installation Packages, Software management, YaST System administration)
Yep.
- Sort KDE and Gnome alphabetically to avoid flamewars ;-))
Over 70% use KDE ;P
Another idea - not sure if it is a good one ;-)
What about integrating all levels into one dialog? first level: pattern groups second level: patterns third level: packages in this pattern
Indeed. That would also give a quick and easy way to see what packages are actually included in the patterns.
The package level should be hidden by default, but easy to open with a [+] or a [Details] link.
Advantage would be that you know (and can change) what packages will be installed with a specific pattern. ("I basically want a normal system including Console Tools, but with Emacs instead of vi." - no, this example is not what I would do ;-))
Exactly.
Another question: Will there be changes in the detailed view (aka sw_single in pattern view)? At the moment, there's no way to see the pattern description... (bug 216553 / feature #302961)
Hmm, maybe we should discuss pattern view and sw_single (+ inst_source, YOU etc.) as _one_ module (using tabs), since this is what I would see as target.
100% ACK ! That's indeed what it should be like at some point.
Possible tabs would be: .----------------------. .----------. .----------. .---------. | Installation Sources | | Patterns | | Packages | | Updates |
Usage example besides clicking a tab directly: Clicking the "Details" link for a pattern could then switch to the packages tab, in pattern view, with the chosen pattern preselected.
I absolutely second that. cheers - -- -o) Pascal Bleser http://linux01.gwdg.de/~pbleser/ /\\ <pascal.bleser@skynet.be> <guru@unixtech.be> _\_v The more things change, the more they stay insane. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHXBt9r3NMWliFcXcRAj1dAJ99JOWAkjwXf5O4dt7EkPLSoxRBFQCfU6ZB fJWKdEmcMVKDb/xEzMdSnGA= =AL3M -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-softwaremgmt+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-softwaremgmt+help@opensuse.org
Hello, (Lukas, feel free to join the discussion again ;-) on Sonntag, 9. Dezember 2007, Pascal Bleser wrote:
Christian Boltz wrote:
on Freitag, 7. Dezember 2007, Pascal Bleser wrote:
Lukas Ocilka wrote:
[... deleted several things we agree on ...]
I think we have two usecases:
a) users going through all patterns without knowing in advance what they need exactly. Let's call it "window shopping" ;-) In this case the long list as seen on the screenshots (maybe combined with [+] / [-] expand switches) is the best solution.
b) users who know exactly what they want to install. In this case a category list would be better.
c) users who look for software by purpose ("I want email and office and those cool looking animations")
Maybe a list of "favourites" on top (5-6 items at most) would help for this use case. Those should be desktop related ones (off the top of my head: KDE, GNOME, OpenOffice.org, Compiz-Fusion)
Nice idea. However, these "Favorites" category will need to duplicate the patterns because they also have to be in their related category (for example: KDE and GNOME in "graphical desktop")
- do more users fit into a) or b)?
I'd put that question the opposite way: whom are the patterns and hence the pattern selection dialog most useful to ? Group (b) sounds more experienced to me, and those can still search for specific packages in YaST's Software Management screen. IMHO the patterns and its selection screen is most useful to target group (a). But that's really just my very personal gut feeling.
You might be right. For example, I'm often using the pattern _detail_ view in package manager when I want to install more than one or two packages. The pattern names are good for a first orientation, but I often select or unselect some packages inside the chosen pattern. (Yes, I would say I fit into b).)
Maybe we can have a solution for both usecases by using a category list with links like <a href='#desktop_functions> which is always visible (speaking in CSS: position:fixed).
I don't know if this is possible in YaST, but you were asking for ideas, not working solutions ;-)
Or maybe a group "all".
If it preserves the sort order and category "headlines". Sorting all patterns alphabetically is, well, not optimal ;-)
* Possibility to hide the pattern description (?)
With the long list, this would be a very good idea.
hmh. But how understandable is "Enhanced base system" or "Console tools" without its description ? Or what's the difference between "KDE Desktop Environment" and "KDE Base System" without the descriptions ?
Beginners should of course NOT hide the pattern description, but it might save experts some scrolling ;-) Not sure if it is worth the work and/or causes confusion to newbies...
- Sort KDE and Gnome alphabetically to avoid flamewars ;-))
Over 70% use KDE ;P
And the remaining ~30% will ask for an explanation if KDE is at the top of the list ;-)
Hmm, maybe we should discuss pattern view and sw_single (+ inst_source, YOU etc.) as _one_ module (using tabs), since this is what I would see as target.
100% ACK ! That's indeed what it should be like at some point.
OK, then over to Lukas and all the other YaST developers: Is this possible? ;-) Sidenote: Possible improvements for adding a repository are listed in https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=346718#c6 Regards, Christian Boltz, random sig ;-) -- Möglicherweise laufe ich sogar mit fliegenden Fahnen von Gnome zu KDE über. Jedenfalls, bis sich das Gnome-Projekt dazu entschliesst, Nautilus durch /irgendwas/ zu ersetzen. Notfalls eine Parkuhr oder einen Bratenwender. Aber nicht dieses.... "Ding". [Ratti in suse-linux] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-softwaremgmt+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-softwaremgmt+help@opensuse.org
participants (3)
-
Christian Boltz -
Lukas Ocilka -
Pascal Bleser