[opensuse-releaseteam] Re: Refresh of installation media

Lubos Kocman

20 Apr 2020 20 Apr '20

14:00

Hello team I'll rather fire few questions for the discussion than particular decision. Which we can discuss later on the opensuse-release team meeting. https://etherpad.opensuse.org/p/ReleaseEngineering-20200422 (already on agenda) I agree about the media refresh. SLE figured out it's useful, RHEL figured out it's useful (6 weeks batch updates with optional media refresh). I can also see how we could mirror SLE Quarterly updates with image refreshes. However, I also understand that our "superior" installer actually supports updates of itself. Which s not the case for e.g. RHEL. I believe that kernel version should not change during the maintenance phase of Leap, so perhaps installer could simply fetch all kmod updates available. Perhaps it already does that (cc Lukas). I'd assume the OS X network recovery does the same (one image + updates) Nobody seem to be doing both efforts to my knowledge, both installer network updates and media refresh. Either one or the other. Wouldn't this be a duplicated effort then? Or am I wrong and somebody is doing both? Just a brainstorm: If SLE quarterly updates could introduce some changes such as "kernel version bump or larger bootloader/shim change" then I'd be absolutely for media refresh. Just to be clear I'm open to this, if there would be some clear benefit to justify extra work for maintenance team. One use case that would support this is * User is trying to install openSUSE Leap on greatest newest ARM hardware. Leap might receive necessary driver updates during the maintenance lifecycle, otherwise it's unbootable. However we seem to be too much behind with kernel compared to TW. So I suppose such user would rather use TW or custom Leap with a newer kernel. Thoughts? Cheers ________________________________________ From: Axel Braun Sent: Monday, 20 April 2020 13:01 To: Lubos Kocman; Ludwig Nussel Subject: Re: Refresh of installation media Am Montag, 20. April 2020, 09:28:22 CEST schrieb Ludwig Nussel:

...

Am 20.04.20 um 09:18 schrieb Axel Braun:

...
Am Montag, 20. April 2020, 07:35:25 CEST schrieb Ludwig Nussel:

...
Am 19.04.20 um 20:07 schrieb Axel Braun:

...
do you know if we are refreshing the installation media of Leap - mainly the DVD - on a regular basis?

So far no.

Given the fact that a bunch of updates gets into Leap each month - I guess with some new drivers backported into the Kernel as well - I feel it makes sense to have updated installation media available.

That could mitigate the complaint that Leap has issues with modern hardware.

...
What do you think?

Doesn't matter. I'm not in charge. Maybe talk to PM, looks like they know what's good for Leap and what the priorities are now.

Well, I thought you and Lubos as former/actual Release Manager are the right persons to talk to.... I have no idea who the PM are..... Cheers Axel -- Dr.-Ing. Axel K. Braun M: +49.173.7003.154 T: @coogor Matrix: @docb:matrix.org PGP Fingerprint: 2E7F 3A19 A4A4 844A 3D09 7656 822D EB64 A3BA 290D Public Key available at http://www.axxite.com/axel.braun@gmx.de.asc Personal Freedom starts with free/libre Software ThinkPad T520 running openSUSE Tumbleweed 20200415 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-releaseteam+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-releaseteam+owner@opensuse.org

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Lubos Kocman

21 Apr 21 Apr

11:33

On Mon, 2020-04-20 at 14:00 +0000, Lubos Kocman wrote:

...

Hello team

I'll rather fire few questions for the discussion than particular decision. Which we can discuss later on the opensuse-release team meeting. https://etherpad.opensuse.org/p/ReleaseEngineering-20200422 (already on agenda)

I agree about the media refresh. SLE figured out it's useful, RHEL figured out it's useful (6 weeks batch updates with optional media refresh). I can also see how we could mirror SLE Quarterly updates with image refreshes.

However, I also understand that our "superior" installer actually supports updates of itself. Which s not the case for e.g. RHEL. I believe that kernel version should not change during the maintenance phase of Leap, so perhaps installer could simply fetch all kmod updates available. Perhaps it already does that (cc Lukas). I'd assume the OS X network recovery does the same (one image + updates)

Nobody seem to be doing both efforts to my knowledge, both installer network updates and media refresh. Either one or the other. Wouldn't this be a duplicated effort then? Or am I wrong and somebody is doing both?

Just a brainstorm: If SLE quarterly updates could introduce some changes such as "kernel version bump or larger bootloader/shim change" then I'd be absolutely for media refresh.

Just to be clear I'm open to this, if there would be some clear benefit to justify extra work for maintenance team.

One use case that would support this is

* User is trying to install openSUSE Leap on greatest newest ARM hardware. Leap might receive necessary driver updates during the maintenance lifecycle, otherwise it's unbootable. However we seem to be too much behind with kernel compared to TW. So I suppose such user would rather use TW or custom Leap with a newer kernel.

Thoughts? Cheers

________________________________________ From: Axel Braun Sent: Monday, 20 April 2020 13:01 To: Lubos Kocman; Ludwig Nussel Subject: Re: Refresh of installation media

Am Montag, 20. April 2020, 09:28:22 CEST schrieb Ludwig Nussel:

...
Am 20.04.20 um 09:18 schrieb Axel Braun:

...
Am Montag, 20. April 2020, 07:35:25 CEST schrieb Ludwig Nussel:

...
Am 19.04.20 um 20:07 schrieb Axel Braun:

...
do you know if we are refreshing the installation media of Leap - mainly the DVD - on a regular basis?

So far no.

Given the fact that a bunch of updates gets into Leap each month - I guess with some new drivers backported into the Kernel as well - I feel it makes sense to have updated installation media available.

That could mitigate the complaint that Leap has issues with modern hardware. What do you think?

Doesn't matter. I'm not in charge. Maybe talk to PM, looks like they know what's good for Leap and what the priorities are now.

Well, I thought you and Lubos as former/actual Release Manager are the right persons to talk to....

I have no idea who the PM are.....

Hello Axel, the only PM who is expected to work on Leap as well would be Stefan Behlert. He's in cc of this email. As already mentioned I'll discuss this on tomorrow's releng call. Axel, feel free to add details to https://etherpad.opensuse.org/p/ReleaseEngineering-20200422

...

Cheers Axel

-- Dr.-Ing. Axel K. Braun M: +49.173.7003.154 T: @coogor Matrix: @docb:matrix.org PGP Fingerprint: 2E7F 3A19 A4A4 844A 3D09 7656 822D EB64 A3BA 290D Public Key available at http://www.axxite.com/axel.braun@gmx.de.asc

Personal Freedom starts with free/libre Software ThinkPad T520 running openSUSE Tumbleweed 20200415

-- Best regards Luboš Kocman Release Manager openSUSE Leap SUSE Software Solutions Germany GmbH Maxfeldstr. 5 90409 Nuremberg Germany (HRB 36809, AG Nürnberg) Managing Director: Felix Imendörffer N��r��y隊Z)z{.��ޕ�zך�맲��r��z�^�ˬz��N�(�֜��^� ޭ隊Z)z{.��ޕ�zך��0��Ǩ�

Stefan Behlert

23 Apr 23 Apr

09:34

Moin, On Apr 21, 20 13:33:04 +0200, Lubos Kocman wrote: [....]

...

...
From: Axel Braun Sent: Monday, 20 April 2020 13:01 To: Lubos Kocman; Ludwig Nussel Subject: Re: Refresh of installation media

...
Am 20.04.20 um 09:18 schrieb Axel Braun:

...
Am Montag, 20. April 2020, 07:35:25 CEST schrieb Ludwig Nussel:

...
Am 19.04.20 um 20:07 schrieb Axel Braun: [...] Well, I thought you and Lubos as former/actual Release Manager are

Am Montag, 20. April 2020, 09:28:22 CEST schrieb Ludwig Nussel: the right persons to talk to....

I have no idea who the PM are.....

Hello Axel,

the only PM who is expected to work on Leap as well would be Stefan Behlert. He's in cc of this email. As already mentioned I'll discuss

Just to make this clear: I don't think Leap has a PM asigned to it. This does not mean we do not _care_ about Leap :) But it's different than e.g. SLES, where the PMs make the decisions, and are much more involved. Never-the-less, let me comment on the image refresh: It may sound like a good idea, and it can help in cases where newer hardware needs a new Installer (resp. support for it). AFAIK Lepa has the "installler sef-update" not enabled, so this would be even more beneficial in such cases. But be aware: We have seen with SLE 15 SP1 that this is not "just" a simple refresh. It requires work, updates of media configuration as well as testing, and then you have to get it done at the "right" point in time. Or you leave out a dependency, or miss an important security update. This does not mean Leap should not do it, but is a warnign that it's not easy. And I wonder how often people really stumble into new hardware issues before the next release. With SLE, this happens due to the long-time use of the same Service Pack, but for Leap I would expect that people rather take the latest version of Leap available, leaving only a 12 month timefrmae where it may be needed to update the installer. Not sure if it's worth the work therefore. But as mentioned, I am just bringing it up, so you can make a good decision on it. ciao, Stefan

...

this on tomorrow's releng call. Axel, feel free to add details to https://etherpad.opensuse.org/p/ReleaseEngineering-20200422

...
Cheers Axel

-- Dr.-Ing. Axel K. Braun M: +49.173.7003.154 T: @coogor Matrix: @docb:matrix.org PGP Fingerprint: 2E7F 3A19 A4A4 844A 3D09 7656 822D EB64 A3BA 290D Public Key available at http://www.axxite.com/axel.braun@gmx.de.asc

Personal Freedom starts with free/libre Software ThinkPad T520 running openSUSE Tumbleweed 20200415

-- Best regards

Luboš Kocman

Release Manager openSUSE Leap

SUSE Software Solutions Germany GmbH Maxfeldstr. 5 90409 Nuremberg Germany

(HRB 36809, AG Nürnberg) Managing Director: Felix Imendörffer

-- Stefan Behlert, SUSE Software Solutions Product Manager SUSE Linux Enterprise Maxfeldstr. 5, D-90409 Nuernberg, Germany Phone +49-911-74053-173 SUSE Software Solutions Germany GmbH, GF: Felix Imendörffer (HRB 36809, AG Nürnberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-releaseteam+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-releaseteam+owner@opensuse.org

Axel Braun

19:13

N'Abend..... Am Donnerstag, 23. April 2020, 11:34:14 CEST schrieb Stefan Behlert: [....]

...

...
...
I have no idea who the PM are.....

Hello Axel,

the only PM who is expected to work on Leap as well would be Stefan Behlert. He's in cc of this email. As already mentioned I'll discuss

Just to make this clear: I don't think Leap has a PM asigned to it. This does not mean we do not _care_ about Leap :) But it's different than e.g. SLES, where the PMs make the decisions, and are much more involved.

Good point - the community has not assigned that kind of role.

...

Never-the-less, let me comment on the image refresh: It may sound like a good idea, and it can help in cases where newer hardware needs a new Installer (resp. support for it).

AFAIK Lepa has the "installler sef-update" not enabled, so this would be even more beneficial in such cases.

Can you explain what this is?

...

But be aware: We have seen with SLE 15 SP1 that this is not "just" a simple refresh. It requires work, updates of media configuration as well as testing, and then you have to get it done at the "right" point in time. Or you leave out a dependency, or miss an important security update.

The approach should be more like TW - a successful openQA test may even trigger a new build. Toolchain should be in place, as this is how TW works

...

This does not mean Leap should not do it, but is a warnign that it's not easy. And I wonder how often people really stumble into new hardware issues before the next release. With SLE, this happens due to the long-time use of the same Service Pack, but for Leap I would expect that people rather take the latest version of Leap available, leaving only a 12 month timefrmae where it may be needed to update the installer.

This complain was already raised more often, not only in german media, but as well from users here. Sure, we all know that brand new hardware can be an issue with nearly any Linux system. But we should try our best to give users a positive experience with a solid system AND up to date drivers. 12 month is a way too long time for this. Cheers Axel -- Dr.-Ing. Axel K. Braun M: +49.173.7003.154 T: @coogor Matrix: @docb:matrix.org PGP Fingerprint: 2E7F 3A19 A4A4 844A 3D09 7656 822D EB64 A3BA 290D Public Key available at http://www.axxite.com/axel.braun@gmx.de.asc Personal Freedom starts with free/libre Software ThinkPad T520 running openSUSE Tumbleweed 20200419 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-releaseteam+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-releaseteam+owner@opensuse.org

Stefan Behlert

24 Apr 24 Apr

08:28

Moin, On Apr 23, 20 21:13:58 +0200, Axel Braun wrote:

...

N'Abend.....

Am Donnerstag, 23. April 2020, 11:34:14 CEST schrieb Stefan Behlert:

[....] [...]

...
AFAIK Lepa has the "installler sef-update" not enabled, so this would be even more beneficial in such cases.

Can you explain what this is?

A typo - it should be "installer self-update". :) On SLE - but not on Leap afaik - when you start the installer, it first goes to a specific repository and "updates" itself with the packages inside there. This could be an update of a package or a downgrade, it's independent of version umbers used. Some checks are disabled, so the user just gets what's there - even it might might break dependencies. Due to that, this self-update is rarely used, and needs a lot of additional testing and care-taking. It allows on SLE that a customer who is still using an older version (due to the life-time, e.g.) can install on newer hardware (if supported), and to fix important installer bugs (which we avoid to have, of course;) ).

...

...
But be aware: We have seen with SLE 15 SP1 that this is not "just" a simple refresh. It requires work, updates of media configuration as well as testing, and then you have to get it done at the "right" point in time. Or you leave out a dependency, or miss an important security update.

The approach should be more like TW - a successful openQA test may even trigger a new build. Toolchain should be in place, as this is how TW works

Sure, automation is key there.

...

...
This does not mean Leap should not do it, but is a warnign that it's not easy. And I wonder how often people really stumble into new hardware issues before the next release. With SLE, this happens due to the long-time use of the same Service Pack, but for Leap I would expect that people rather take the latest version of Leap available, leaving only a 12 month timefrmae where it may be needed to update the installer.

This complain was already raised more often, not only in german media, but as well from users here. Sure, we all know that brand new hardware can be an issue with nearly any Linux system. But we should try our best to give users a positive experience with a solid system AND up to date drivers. 12 month is a way too long time for this.

Well, you are for sure in a better position to judge if it's worth the work - with automation in place it might be even less than feared. Adaption of media content might still need manual work, but the rest could be automated fairly easy - including automated deployment. (I wonder, if it would not even work for Leap to do an update of the iso every month once GA is reached) Stefan

...

Cheers Axel

-- Dr.-Ing. Axel K. Braun M: +49.173.7003.154 T: @coogor Matrix: @docb:matrix.org PGP Fingerprint: 2E7F 3A19 A4A4 844A 3D09 7656 822D EB64 A3BA 290D Public Key available at http://www.axxite.com/axel.braun@gmx.de.asc

Personal Freedom starts with free/libre Software ThinkPad T520 running openSUSE Tumbleweed 20200419

Fabian Vogt

08:35

Moin, Am Donnerstag, 23. April 2020, 21:13:58 CEST schrieb Axel Braun:

...

N'Abend.....

Am Donnerstag, 23. April 2020, 11:34:14 CEST schrieb Stefan Behlert:

[....]

...
But be aware: We have seen with SLE 15 SP1 that this is not "just" a simple refresh. It requires work, updates of media configuration as well as testing, and then you have to get it done at the "right" point in time. Or you leave out a dependency, or miss an important security update.

The approach should be more like TW - a successful openQA test may even trigger a new build. Toolchain should be in place, as this is how TW works

For Leap images (Live, JeOS, Containers) this is also the case, fully automated. As the live .iso can also be used to install (though not fully supported), there is actually a way to install Leap with the latest kernel update already. Potentially the product .isos could also be part of that list, but it would cause quite a lot of openQA load and probably also manual maintenance of the product configuration. Could be lowered somewhat by building either DVD or NET only though. Cheers, Fabian

...

...
This does not mean Leap should not do it, but is a warnign that it's not easy. And I wonder how often people really stumble into new hardware issues before the next release. With SLE, this happens due to the long-time use of the same Service Pack, but for Leap I would expect that people rather take the latest version of Leap available, leaving only a 12 month timefrmae where it may be needed to update the installer.

This complain was already raised more often, not only in german media, but as well from users here. Sure, we all know that brand new hardware can be an issue with nearly any Linux system. But we should try our best to give users a positive experience with a solid system AND up to date drivers. 12 month is a way too long time for this.

Cheers Axel

-- Dr.-Ing. Axel K. Braun M: +49.173.7003.154 T: @coogor Matrix: @docb:matrix.org PGP Fingerprint: 2E7F 3A19 A4A4 844A 3D09 7656 822D EB64 A3BA 290D Public Key available at http://www.axxite.com/axel.braun@gmx.de.asc

Personal Freedom starts with free/libre Software ThinkPad T520 running openSUSE Tumbleweed 20200419

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-releaseteam+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-releaseteam+owner@opensuse.org

Marcus Meissner

21 Apr 21 Apr

15:08

Hi, I think the "wish" of users for newer hardware usually means that they want "newer kernel versions" and we do not do that during a regular Leap X.Y lifecycle. For Leap we have no installer updates enabled at this time. Ciao, Marcus On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 02:00:40PM +0000, Lubos Kocman wrote:

...

Hello team

I'll rather fire few questions for the discussion than particular decision. Which we can discuss later on the opensuse-release team meeting. https://etherpad.opensuse.org/p/ReleaseEngineering-20200422 (already on agenda)

I agree about the media refresh. SLE figured out it's useful, RHEL figured out it's useful (6 weeks batch updates with optional media refresh). I can also see how we could mirror SLE Quarterly updates with image refreshes.

However, I also understand that our "superior" installer actually supports updates of itself. Which s not the case for e.g. RHEL. I believe that kernel version should not change during the maintenance phase of Leap, so perhaps installer could simply fetch all kmod updates available. Perhaps it already does that (cc Lukas). I'd assume the OS X network recovery does the same (one image + updates)

Nobody seem to be doing both efforts to my knowledge, both installer network updates and media refresh. Either one or the other. Wouldn't this be a duplicated effort then? Or am I wrong and somebody is doing both?

Just a brainstorm: If SLE quarterly updates could introduce some changes such as "kernel version bump or larger bootloader/shim change" then I'd be absolutely for media refresh.

Just to be clear I'm open to this, if there would be some clear benefit to justify extra work for maintenance team.

One use case that would support this is

* User is trying to install openSUSE Leap on greatest newest ARM hardware. Leap might receive necessary driver updates during the maintenance lifecycle, otherwise it's unbootable. However we seem to be too much behind with kernel compared to TW. So I suppose such user would rather use TW or custom Leap with a newer kernel.

Thoughts? Cheers

________________________________________ From: Axel Braun Sent: Monday, 20 April 2020 13:01 To: Lubos Kocman; Ludwig Nussel Subject: Re: Refresh of installation media

Am Montag, 20. April 2020, 09:28:22 CEST schrieb Ludwig Nussel:

...
Am 20.04.20 um 09:18 schrieb Axel Braun:

...
Am Montag, 20. April 2020, 07:35:25 CEST schrieb Ludwig Nussel:

...
Am 19.04.20 um 20:07 schrieb Axel Braun:

...
do you know if we are refreshing the installation media of Leap - mainly the DVD - on a regular basis?

So far no.

Given the fact that a bunch of updates gets into Leap each month - I guess with some new drivers backported into the Kernel as well - I feel it makes sense to have updated installation media available.

That could mitigate the complaint that Leap has issues with modern hardware.

...
What do you think?

Doesn't matter. I'm not in charge. Maybe talk to PM, looks like they know what's good for Leap and what the priorities are now.

Well, I thought you and Lubos as former/actual Release Manager are the right persons to talk to....

I have no idea who the PM are.....

Cheers Axel

-- Dr.-Ing. Axel K. Braun M: +49.173.7003.154 T: @coogor Matrix: @docb:matrix.org PGP Fingerprint: 2E7F 3A19 A4A4 844A 3D09 7656 822D EB64 A3BA 290D Public Key available at http://www.axxite.com/axel.braun@gmx.de.asc

Personal Freedom starts with free/libre Software ThinkPad T520 running openSUSE Tumbleweed 20200415

-- Marcus Meissner,SUSE LINUX GmbH; Maxfeldstrasse 5; D-90409 Nuernberg; Zi. 3.1-33,+49-911-740 53-432,,serv=loki,mail=wotan,type=real -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-releaseteam+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-releaseteam+owner@opensuse.org

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participants (5)

Axel Braun
Fabian Vogt
Lubos Kocman
Marcus Meissner
Stefan Behlert