On 30 January 2014 13:12, Michal Hrusecky wrote:

Hi all,

As you know we had a week-long meeting in Nuremberg. Quite a few of the things we've been working on (openQA, OBS workflow etc) were shared by now. Besides discussing features, we scheduled our work.

In the previous thread on $SUBJECT, Simon noted that going for a release in November seemed a far smarter compromise between the benefits of releasing and getting some improvements in our tool chain than skipping a release. Most of the team agreed on this right away and we'd like to go for that.

+1 - I like this idea. I think our releases around November often feel 'smoother' than our others that often have big vacation and other busy periods mixed in with them. Personally I'd like to see us go for a 12 month release cycle and this seems like a good opportunity to suggest it.

However. This does not mean the initial idea of doing a more 'relaxed' release is off the table. Planning software development is hard, planning experimentation (like the staging projects we are toying with) is impossible so we can not predict when we will be done. This means that we still intend to take those of you who stepped forward to help out with the release up on their offer. The exact nature of what we release is still to be determined and we'd like to make a more final decision on how much effort we can and will put in in August. So far it is sure that we would need some volunteer to keep eye on Factory and release milestones at least till then.

I like and fully support the idea on the idea of involving more 'non-openSUSE Team@SUSE members' (I'm purposefully avoiding the use of the word 'community' as you're community members too). I think having our next release in November is a great opportunity for everyone to have their cake and eat it - the openSUSE Team@SUSE get the time they need/want to work on things like openQA and OBS, and everyone else gets an opportunity to step up and still produce regular releases for our distribution.

So, for now, this will be a 'community release'. This might mean less QA but also no security updates provided by SUSE! Especially if it comes to the latter case we should communicate this carefully to our users as it will be more like a slightly more stabilized milestone than a successor to openSUSE 13.1. How to call it, how to communicate and what exactly it will look like - August.

A very strong - 1 from me - Why would the SUSE Maintenance Team not be able to support a single openSUSE release in 2014? They're not going to be involved in the work the openSUSE Team@SUSE are proposing, and up until this decision for a November 2014 release is final, they should be planning and prepared for a standard 8 month cycle release in May.. I don't like the message this suggestion gives off, that a release led by someone other than the openSUSE Team@SUSE would somehow be a 'second-class' release Just because your team want to focus on something different for the next months I don't think that should be allowed to have a disproportionate impact on our project. On the contrary, I think this situation should be used to further empower our contributors who aren't paid by SUSE to work on the distribution to have a bigger part in the release process.

When exactly we will be fully back to working on Factory, releasing milestones, and working on the release we will hopefully be able to determine in August as well.

While I understand the need for your team to defer any final decision on their availability until August, I think the reality of mentoring and 'spinning up' an increased involvement of non-openSUSE Team@SUSE members in the release process means we need to assume that your teams involvement in a November 2014 would be 'reduced' and therefore steps should be made to start preparing our new volunteers in the release process now. If we leave too many decisions to August, the likelihood of being able to teach people what they need to know and get a good release out in Nov 2014 is going to be reduced.

Thoughts? The openSUSE Team -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

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* Michal Hrusecky [2014-01-30 13:12]:

However. This does not mean the initial idea of doing a more 'relaxed' release is off the table. Planning software development is hard, planning experimentation (like the staging projects we are toying with) is impossible so we can not predict when we will be done. This means that we still intend to

That's all fine, but why again do we need a "half-release" before we are able and ready to make fully supported releases again?

take those of you who stepped forward to help out with the release up on their offer. The exact nature of what we release is still to be determined and we'd like to make a more final decision on how much effort we can and will put in in August. So far it is sure that we would need some volunteer to keep eye on Factory and release milestones at least till then.

So, for now, this will be a 'community release'. This might mean less QA but also no security updates provided by SUSE! Especially if it comes to the latter case we should communicate this carefully to our users as it will be more like a slightly more stabilized milestone than a successor to openSUSE 13.1. How to call it, how to communicate and what exactly it will look like - August.

When exactly we will be fully back to working on Factory, releasing milestones, and working on the release we will hopefully be able to determine in August as well.

Thoughts?

I think putting out such a release with lower quality and no support has little value and will backfire no matter how you communicate it. If it takes some time to reorganize infrastructure and we have a much longer cycle then so be it. We can communicate that rather than putting out something which isn't up to our usual standards, cannot replace 13.1 (without security updates/support) and is likely to be perceived negatively. Besides, there still is Tumbleweed for those who want newer packages. -- Guido Berhoerster -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On Donnerstag, 30. Januar 2014, 14:15:46 wrote Michal Hrusecky:

Richard Brown - 13:51 30.01.14 wrote:

...

...

So, for now, this will be a 'community release'. This might mean less QA but also no security updates provided by SUSE! Especially if it comes to the latter case we should communicate this carefully to our users as it will be more like a slightly more stabilized milestone than a successor to openSUSE 13.1. How to call it, how to communicate and what exactly it will look like - August.

A very strong - 1 from me - Why would the SUSE Maintenance Team not be able to support a single openSUSE release in 2014?

Well, we just haven't discussed it with them yet, so we can't promise anything on behalf of them.

You have not discussed it with it yet, but you harm their work and their reputation deeply by announcing such things? I do not have the right public words to communicate my feelings right now .... Seriously, think again about what you just wrote and how others could see this. Esp. the others how put a lot of effort for building up great reputation. If anyone would take your announcement as seriouse openSUSE project announcement you have destroyed all of this now :( -- Adrian Schroeter email: adrian@suse.de SUSE LINUX GmbH, GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer, HRB 21284 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstraße 5 90409 Nürnberg Germany -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Hi, sorry for the cross posting...

...

So, for now, this will be a 'community release'. This might mean less QA but also no security updates provided by SUSE! Especially if it comes to the latter case we should communicate this carefully to our users as it will be more like a slightly more stabilized milestone than a successor to openSUSE 13.1. How to call it, how to communicate and what exactly it will look like - August. A very strong - 1 from me - Why would the SUSE Maintenance Team not be able to support a single openSUSE release in 2014? They're not going to be involved in the work the openSUSE Team@SUSE are proposing, and up until this decision for a November 2014 release is final, they should be planning and prepared for a standard 8 month cycle release in May..

Since no one knows for sure how Factory is going to look like there are several possible solutions to what we (project) call "Release". If in November we (project) have something like a successor of 13.1, there must be maintenance updates. It doesn't matter who works on it. Users need the updates. If we (project) end up publishing just an "enhanced snapshot of Factory" (meaning that we succeeded in keeping Factory usable), it might mean that no extra update repo will be needed since Factory will receive the updates anyways. In August (the latest) those working on the Community Release and Factory should have a clear idea of how the "Release" will look like. Saludos -- Agustin Benito Bethencourt openSUSE Team Lead at SUSE abebe@suse.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Hey, On 30.01.2014 14:28, Michal Hrusecky wrote:

So really sorry for all the confusion, should have clarified/asked more around before sending this, whole point was just not to make promises on behalf of somebody else.

Shit happens :-) So this means that your team at SUSE is not going to do anything for the openSUSE release at least until August and then you decide if you "come back" or not? Is that correct? Henne -- Henne Vogelsang http://www.opensuse.org Everybody has a plan, until they get hit. - Mike Tyson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On 30.01.2014 15:26, Michal Hrusecky wrote:

Henne Vogelsang - 15:15 30.01.14 wrote:

...

Hey,

On 30.01.2014 14:28, Michal Hrusecky wrote:

...

So really sorry for all the confusion, should have clarified/asked more around before sending this, whole point was just not to make promises on behalf of somebody else.

Shit happens :-) So this means that your team at SUSE is not going to do anything for the openSUSE release at least until August and then you decide if you "come back" or not? Is that correct?

Basically, yes. It not completely nothing. We are going to work on projects we outlined in separate mails, like staging projects, openQA and integrating all of it into Factory workflow, basically trying to make Factory more stable which should benefit the release and ultimately reduce the work needed for the actual release, but yes, we are not going to put any direct effort into release till August when we will see what next.

For those being serious about helping out: please fix https://bugzilla.novell.com/860766 Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On 30 January 2014 14:26, Michal Hrusecky wrote:

Henne Vogelsang - 15:15 30.01.14 wrote:

...

Hey,

On 30.01.2014 14:28, Michal Hrusecky wrote:

...

So really sorry for all the confusion, should have clarified/asked more around before sending this, whole point was just not to make promises on behalf of somebody else.

Shit happens :-) So this means that your team at SUSE is not going to do anything for the openSUSE release at least until August and then you decide if you "come back" or not? Is that correct?

Basically, yes. It not completely nothing. We are going to work on projects we outlined in separate mails, like staging projects, openQA and integrating all of it into Factory workflow, basically trying to make Factory more stable which should benefit the release and ultimately reduce the work needed for the actual release, but yes, we are not going to put any direct effort into release till August when we will see what next.

I realise this is probably going to sound sarcastic and that is not intended, but does this mean your team are going to get a rename? We had the "Boosters" when the team existed to boost and bootstrap the Project, calling you "The openSUSE Team" (sometimes with the added suffix @SUSE) made sense when your team was focused on making sure the project got openSUSE releases out of the door, but if that's taking a backseat for 6 months, what name makes sense? The "openSUSE Team except when we're working on OBS or openQA" doesn't really have a good ring to it and isn't descriptive. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Le 30/01/2014 17:31, Michal Hrusecky a écrit :

But personally I agree that openSUSE Team @ SUSE is not a good team name

why not have a "factory team" (not necessarily with the exact same people) jdd -- http://www.dodin.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On 01/30/2014 01:12 PM, Michal Hrusecky wrote:

As you know we had a week-long meeting in Nuremberg.

Hi, we actually don't... Neither we know who is "we". This whole post is full of confusion and pronouns linking to something unknown for many of us. Could you write this again with more care, please?

Quite a few of the things we've been working on (openQA, OBS workflow etc) were shared by now.

Shared with whom? And they are not going to, or what did you want to tell us?

Besides discussing features, we scheduled our work.

Whose work? What work?

In the previous thread on $SUBJECT,

Which thread? Where? Link?

So, for now, this will be a 'community release'. This might mean less QA but also no security updates provided by SUSE! Especially if it comes to the latter case we should communicate this carefully to our users as it will be more like a slightly more stabilized milestone than a successor to openSUSE 13.1. How to call it, how to communicate and what exactly it will look like - August.

Parse error on the whole paragraph. Pardon me? August? August Rush?

When exactly we will be fully back to working on Factory, releasing milestones, and working on the release we will hopefully be able to determine in August as well.

Thoughts?

Yes, can anybody explain us what is going on? Thank you.

The openSUSE Team

The Slaby Team -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On Thu, Jan 30, 2014 at 02:06:27PM +0100, Michael Schroeder wrote:

On Thu, Jan 30, 2014 at 01:12:17PM +0100, Michal Hrusecky wrote:

...

So, for now, this will be a 'community release'. This might mean less QA but also no security updates provided by SUSE!

What? That's not something the openSUSE team can decide, right? How are they even involved in security releases?

They are not. The 2 releases + 2 months of SUSE maintenance and security updates still stands. Ciao, Marcus -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Hi Andrew, Names/titles should help to clarify who is who and what we do. If this goal is not reached, let's talk about it. Maybe next week, in any of the SUSE / Board meetings, is the perfect time. In any case, I suggest to separate that discussion in thread/time from this one. On Thursday 30 January 2014 15:58:45 Andrew Wafaa wrote:

On 30 January 2014 14:26, Michal Hrusecky wrote:

...

Henne Vogelsang - 15:15 30.01.14 wrote:

...

Hey,

On 30.01.2014 14:28, Michal Hrusecky wrote:

...

So really sorry for all the confusion, should have clarified/asked more around before sending this, whole point was just not to make promises on behalf of somebody else.

Shit happens :-) So this means that your team at SUSE is not going to do anything for the openSUSE release at least until August and then you decide if you "come back" or not? Is that correct?

Basically, yes. It not completely nothing. We are going to work on projects we outlined in separate mails, like staging projects, openQA and integrating all of it into Factory workflow, basically trying to make Factory more stable which should benefit the release and ultimately reduce the work needed for the actual release, but yes, we are not going to put any direct effort into release till August when we will see what next.

I realise this is probably going to sound sarcastic and that is not intended, but does this mean your team are going to get a rename?

We had the "Boosters" when the team existed to boost and bootstrap the Project, calling you "The openSUSE Team" (sometimes with the added suffix @SUSE) made sense when your team was focused on making sure the project got openSUSE releases out of the door, but if that's taking a backseat for 6 months, what name makes sense?

The "openSUSE Team except when we're working on OBS or openQA" doesn't really have a good ring to it and isn't descriptive.

-- Agustin Benito Bethencourt openSUSE Team Lead at SUSE abebe@suse.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On 30-01-2014 13:12, Michal Hrusecky wrote:

...

Hi all,

As you know we had a week-long meeting in Nuremberg. Quite a few of the things we've been working on (openQA, OBS workflow etc) were shared by now. Besides discussing features, we scheduled our work.

In the previous thread on $SUBJECT, Simon noted that going for a release in November seemed a far smarter compromise between the benefits of releasing and getting some improvements in our tool chain than skipping a release. Most of the team agreed on this right away and we'd like to go for that.

However. This does not mean the initial idea of doing a more 'relaxed' release is off the table. Planning software development is hard, planning experimentation (like the staging projects we are toying with) is impossible so we can not predict when we will be done. This means that we still intend to take those of you who stepped forward to help out with the release up on their offer. The exact nature of what we release is still to be determined and we'd like to make a more final decision on how much effort we can and will put in in August. So far it is sure that we would need some volunteer to keep eye on Factory and release milestones at least till then.

So, for now, this will be a 'community release'. This might mean less QA but also no security updates provided by SUSE! Especially if it comes to the latter case we should communicate this carefully to our users as it will be more like a slightly more stabilized milestone than a successor to openSUSE 13.1. How to call it, how to communicate and what exactly it will look like - August.

When exactly we will be fully back to working on Factory, releasing milestones, and working on the release we will hopefully be able to determine in August as well.

Thoughts? The openSUSE Team

I would like to personally take the opportunity to congratulate The openSUSE Team and their illustrious leader Agustin, for their complete and utter inability to learn how to communicate with the community!

Sound a bit harsh? Well personally I feel it is completely warranted, here at FOSDEM, I have had no end of discussions with people about the "changes" happening at openSUSE. I am dumbfounded that this team that ironically has openSUSE in their title, has not learnt that their current style of communication is so damaging. Even with all the feedback after Agustin and the team's previous emails on "strategy" etc. they are un able to communicate without causing a storm of epic proportions, and alienating the entire community.

I have been involved with openSUSE and its predecessors for 12 years, and I have seen some fairly atrocious communication in that time. This however takes the biscuit!

The annoying part is I actually agree with the team's intention to focus on improving Factory and OBS. However, the way that it has been communicated is shocking. It's so bad that the likes of LWN, Phoronix & Linux.com to name a few have picked up the message that "SUSE is stopping it's engineers of working on openSUSE as part of their $DAYJOB", yes I'm paraphrasing but the message is clear.

The fact that there is no mention of handover, staging or any form of enablement for the community to take the slack is a clear sign of piss poor planning. Sending a message that the Security and Maintenance team would not be doing their job without checking with them, is an astounding feat of incompetence. That even after drop kicking the hornet's nest, and scaring the bejeezus out of the community, there has been no clear message of what was originally intended; it has been up to our astounding community to work on calming people and stating clearly what exactly is going to happen - Many thanks Coolo for being crystal clear in what is happening with the release of 13.2, thank you Greg for clearly and simply stating what the "openSUSE" team will be doing.

I am genuinely disgusted that this team has openSUSE in their title, in the last 12 months this team has done an amazing amount of damage with their cack handed communication and inability to listen and learn from the community.

Please note that this is my personal view as a member of the openSUSE community.

Regards, Andy I have nothing to add Andrew pretty much summed up my feelings on the subject also. Maybe we should clear the air somewhat at the next IRC

On 02/01/2014 08:19 AM, Andrew Wafaa wrote: project meeting. Mark -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Le 02/02/2014 09:02, Greg KH a écrit :

I'm totally disgusted right now, and have yet to see _anything_ in these threads to make me feel better[1].

please don't, we need you (badly) may be some Kayak driving :-) I still remember you talk at OBS11 :-) jdd -- http://www.dodin.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Le 02/02/2014 12:11, Vincent Untz a écrit :

Hi everyone,

This thread is happening on the project and the factory list at the same time, with some subthreads just on one of the two lists.

I suggest to keep it to factory only from now on; having only one place for the discussion would hopefully help reduce the confusion.

Cheers,

Vincent

is this not more a project thread? many people are not subscribed to factory and do not dare to subscribe! jdd -- http://www.dodin.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org