[opensuse-project] Board elections
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hi folks We (the board) would like to start working on a proposal for organising the elections of the next board. As a first step, and also because we want it to be an open and transparent process, we'd like to hear about ideas and recommendations about how we should do that. There are obviously a few gotchas with the process for elections. First of all, we don't want to give the impression the board is arranging things to re-elect itself. We most probably won't have a totally bullet proof process wrt that, but we'll do our best weighing what's feasible (and reasonable). As I wrote a few times before, I'm afraid there is a certain amount of trust that has to be put in our hands, as we don't want the process to be overly complicated either. Secondly, we do think that members should have a higher weight, as they have signed the Guiding Principles and are recognized as active contributors. Maybe we should even restrict the right to vote to "official members". To be discussed. And last but not least, here are a few immutable aspects, as defined in the Guiding Principles [1]: * we shall vote to elect 4 board members * 2 of them must be community members (i.e. not Novell employees) * 2 of them must be Novell employees * the chair is a Novell employee and appointed by Novell [1] http://en.opensuse.org/Guiding_Principles#Governance So please start shooting ideas, brainstorming, thinking out loud. The key questions are: * Who can vote ? * Who can we vote for ? * How long should the voting period be ? * How should elections work ? (from an organisational and technical POV) And please also keep in mind we should aim for a process that is simple, fair, and realistic (in terms of implementation). We shall collect that information and map/reduce it into something practicable as well as add our own ideas. The result of that process will be published and discussed here, as well as on IRC meetings. The current plan is to make a public board IRC meeting, possibly on Monday 17th, or the week thereafter if we don't have enough results yet -- we'll announce it on this list accordingly. The process should be driven by everyone, and hence, we're looking forward to your ideas :) PS: for the sake of readability, please - - keep the same email thread - - don't hijack the thread with off-topic discussions - - use proper email quoting and bottom-posting Thanks for reading and for your ideas/feedback. cheers - -- -o) Pascal Bleser <pascal.bleser@opensuse.org> /\\ http://opensuse.org -- I took the green pill _\_v FOSDEM::23+24 Feb 2008, Brussels, http://fosdem.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHzjjMr3NMWliFcXcRAn3CAJ4x77twmfUzGJh3aSJUVOZwfsfliQCgmvZe rq4LwZIodMfdGceNL1fxTdY= =65iF -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Wed, 5 Mar 2008, Pascal Bleser wrote:
* How should elections work ? (from an organisational and technical POV)
I know that some members of organization are very against anyone knowing how they vote. Some feel that this can create presure to vote a certain way. I also think that voting for our leaders should be done in such a way as privacy is maintained. I find this to be a very good method. http://www.cs.cornell.edu/andru/civs.html This is the technical details. http://www.cs.cornell.edu/w8/~andru/civs/sec_priv.html This is the URL I use to setup elections. http://www.cs.cornell.edu/w8/~andru/civs/civs_create.html I think that every year a set of goals or aims of the various candidates should be presented ahead of time so that we as a body may make wise choices for our representatives. -- Boyd Gerber <gerberb@zenez.com> ZENEZ 1042 East Fort Union #135, Midvale Utah 84047 --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Boyd Lynn Gerber a écrit :
as privacy is maintained. I find this to be a very good method.
I don't like the condorcet method because the calculation is out of mind understanding and so let a gust of trick better use a simple list vote jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://clairedodin.voices.com/ http://www.clairedodin.com/ http://claire.dodin.net/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Hi, Am Wed, 05 Mar 2008 07:08:12 +0100 schrieb Pascal Bleser :
So please start shooting ideas, brainstorming, thinking out loud. The key questions are: * Who can vote ?
Novell employees can only vote Novell employees and the community only community members.
* Who can we vote for ?
Everyone can suggest someone and the suggested person must be ready to do this job.
* How long should the voting period be ?
At first we should collect the persons who can be voted. After that we need some time to make a choice. (booth maybe a month) Then (maybe 2 weeks) to give the vote.
* How should elections work ? (from an organisational and technical POV)
I think it will not works without an account, but how to select the community (a seperated page) ? This are only my first thoughts, it can change ;) kind regards -- Oliver Bengs Key fingerprint = 8F45 91CA 4038 41D3 2FF7 8A65 D3A3 3358 A16E A024 http://jacklab.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
* Oliver Bengs <appleonkel@flashgrafik.de> [2008-03-05 11:59]:
Am Wed, 05 Mar 2008 07:08:12 +0100 schrieb Pascal Bleser :
So please start shooting ideas, brainstorming, thinking out loud. The key questions are: * Who can vote ?
Novell employees can only vote Novell employees and the community only community members.
Why? I don't want this. I'm also part of the community when I'm working at Novell, so I want to have the full choice. ;) Bernhard --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Am Wed, 5 Mar 2008 11:58:52 +0100 schrieb Bernhard Walle :
* Oliver Bengs <appleonkel@flashgrafik.de> [2008-03-05 11:59]:
Am Wed, 05 Mar 2008 07:08:12 +0100 schrieb Pascal Bleser :
So please start shooting ideas, brainstorming, thinking out loud. The key questions are: * Who can vote ?
Novell employees can only vote Novell employees and the community only community members.
Why? I don't want this. I'm also part of the community when I'm working at Novell, so I want to have the full choice. ;)
I will accept the persons, who I know in Nuremberg, as community. But isn't it possible that it comes to conflicts between the community and Novell? If so we have two community members which were elected only by the community without any influence from Novell and than the community cannot say: "Our community members were voted by Novell". Maybe I am a bit pessimistic, but as I said that are my first thoughts. -- Oliver Bengs Key fingerprint = 8F45 91CA 4038 41D3 2FF7 8A65 D3A3 3358 A16E A024 http://jacklab.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Am Mittwoch 05 März 2008 schrieb Oliver Bengs:
Maybe I am a bit pessimistic, but as I said that are my first thoughts. It would be a sad state if Novell outnumbers the community. Plus it would make the voting uncessary complicated if you have to proof you're not working for Novell in any way :)
Greetings, Stephan -- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Oliver Bengs a écrit :
Novell employees can only vote Novell employees and the community only community members.
I don't think so, however most potential voters can only know people from they activity in the communication channels of OpenSUSE, when Novell folks know each other, at leat on some parts (Germany, I beg) who may be candidate for Novell? It's probably very difficult to vote for a novell employee and make him represent novell if he's not choosen by Novell? What are the Novell employee good for in the Board? do they speak for Novell (or simply must they, eventually, have to speak for Novell)? If so, only Novell can choose them, specially the chairman we can barely skip the distinction Novell/non Novell, can we? because if half of the board is dsigned by novell, the candidates for the other part must be non-Novell? difficult...
* How should elections work ? (from an organisational and technical POV)
partly a matter of money. nowaday it's easy to create fake e-mails (only read opensuse@opensuse.org to know) and indentity, so the most secure system is to send a surface registered mail to any people wanting to vote and ask for an answer. This is what did Icann at large for the Icann vote. But this is very expensive both as mail cost and for registering work. Probaly overkill here. else I don't see any other selection than: * have a Novell account (log in the wiki) * sign the Guiding Principles but we can't ask them to be "members" as members are designated by the board. jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://clairedodin.voices.com/ http://www.clairedodin.com/ http://claire.dodin.net/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Am Mittwoch 05 März 2008 schrieb jdd:
Oliver Bengs a écrit :
Novell employees can only vote Novell employees and the community only community members.
I don't think so, however most potential voters can only know people from they activity in the communication channels of OpenSUSE, when Novell folks know each other, at leat on some parts (Germany, I beg)
who may be candidate for Novell? It's probably very difficult to vote for a novell employee and make him represent novell if he's not choosen by Novell?
What are the Novell employee good for in the Board? do they speak for Novell (or simply must they, eventually, have to speak for Novell)? If so, only Novell can choose them, specially the chairman
we can barely skip the distinction Novell/non Novell, can we? because if half of the board is dsigned by novell, the candidates for the other part must be non-Novell?
difficult... The two Novell candidates would be chosen from the community on behalf of their past actions within/for the community I'd think. If you don't know Bernhard, don't vote for him. If you know Beineri, consider voting. This is far different from a Novell internal decision on who will be representative for the opensuse board. That the chairman is appointed by Novell is already pretty tough.
but we can't ask them to be "members" as members are designated by the board. Yeah, chicken/egg in it's nicest form. But I kind of agree, it may be a good idea for the next elections to come, but is a danger for the first election. But all systems I can come up with are easy to break if just 2-3 persons decide to break the system by virtual identities.
Now the question should be: what would be their interest. I can't see one, but I'm pretty naive too :) So I think the first step would be to have a list of people that can vote (however defined). At that point, people should have a way to identify "virtual" identities - and malicious people may have less interest in playing games if they _first_ have to publish what they're planning before they have a chance to. And the second step is sending everyone on the list a ticket to take part in the election. Greetings, Stephan -- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Wed, 2008-03-05 at 11:59 +0100, Oliver Bengs wrote:
Hi,
Am Wed, 05 Mar 2008 07:08:12 +0100 schrieb Pascal Bleser :
So please start shooting ideas, brainstorming, thinking out loud. The key questions are: * Who can vote ?
Novell employees can only vote Novell employees and the community only community members.
I agree with Bernhard.
* Who can we vote for ?
Everyone can suggest someone and the suggested person must be ready to do this job.
You can't force anyone to participate if they don't want to. I would recommend that 1) People who wants to be on the board volunteers for it and 2) People can vote for someone who they want on the board and said person can either accept or decline the "invitation"
* How long should the voting period be ?
At first we should collect the persons who can be voted. After that we need some time to make a choice. (booth maybe a month) Then (maybe 2 weeks) to give the vote.
Sounds good to me. Cheers, Magnus --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
El dc 05 de 03 del 2008 a les 22:15 +1100, en/na Magnus Boman va escriure:
On Wed, 2008-03-05 at 11:59 +0100, Oliver Bengs wrote:
Hi,
Am Wed, 05 Mar 2008 07:08:12 +0100 schrieb Pascal Bleser :
So please start shooting ideas, brainstorming, thinking out loud. The key questions are: * Who can vote ?
Novell employees can only vote Novell employees and the community only community members.
I agree with Bernhard.
I do not agree at all. If we can not choose the Novell and not Novell, this will never be a community project, it will be a Novell project pretending to be a community. Member votes should be for both for the Novell and the not Novell sits. This way, every electable person should present his/her proposals for the openSUSE distribution. If you want to be a little democratic, let your community choose. Novell already chooses the chairman.
* Who can we vote for ?
Everyone can suggest someone and the suggested person must be ready to do this job.
You can't force anyone to participate if they don't want to. I would recommend that 1) People who wants to be on the board volunteers for it and 2) People can vote for someone who they want on the board and said person can either accept or decline the "invitation"
agree. It needs to be volunteer.
* How long should the voting period be ?
At first we should collect the persons who can be voted. After that we need some time to make a choice. (booth maybe a month) Then (maybe 2 weeks) to give the vote.
Sounds good to me.
ok.
Cheers, Magnus
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Jordi Massaguer i Pla openTrends Solucions i Sistemes, S.L. Torre Llacuna C/Llacuna 166, 10º 1ª A 08018 Barcelona Phone: (+34) 93 320 84 14 Fax: (+34) 93 300 35 27 --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Jordi, On Wed, 2008-03-05 at 12:24 +0100, Jordi Massaguer Pla wrote:
El dc 05 de 03 del 2008 a les 22:15 +1100, en/na Magnus Boman va escriure:
On Wed, 2008-03-05 at 11:59 +0100, Oliver Bengs wrote:
Hi,
Am Wed, 05 Mar 2008 07:08:12 +0100 schrieb Pascal Bleser :
So please start shooting ideas, brainstorming, thinking out loud. The key questions are: * Who can vote ?
Novell employees can only vote Novell employees and the community only community members.
I agree with Bernhard.
I do not agree at all. If we can not choose the Novell and not Novell, this will never be a community project, it will be a Novell project pretending to be a community. Member votes should be for both for the Novell and the not Novell sits. This way, every electable person should present his/her proposals for the openSUSE distribution. If you want to be a little democratic, let your community choose. Novell already chooses the chairman.
I don't see you point. If everyone (regardless of who they work for) are allowed to vote for whoever they want, how will that make it a Novell project? At the end of the day, it will still be 2 people from each camp. Cheers, Magnus --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Jordi,
On Wed, 2008-03-05 at 12:24 +0100, Jordi Massaguer Pla wrote:
El dc 05 de 03 del 2008 a les 22:15 +1100, en/na Magnus Boman va
escriure:
On Wed, 2008-03-05 at 11:59 +0100, Oliver Bengs wrote:
Hi,
Am Wed, 05 Mar 2008 07:08:12 +0100
schrieb Pascal Bleser :
So please start shooting ideas, brainstorming, thinking out loud. The key questions are: * Who can vote ?
Novell employees can only vote Novell employees and the community only community members.
I agree with Bernhard.
I do not agree at all. If we can not choose the Novell and not Novell, this will never be a community project, it will be a Novell project pretending to be a community. Member votes should be for both for the Novell and the not Novell sits. This way, every electable person should present his/her proposals for the openSUSE distribution. If you want to be a little democratic, let your community choose. Novell already chooses the chairman.
I don't see you point. If everyone (regardless of who they work for) are allowed to vote for whoever they want, how will that make it a Novell project? I don't think it's a Novell project. It's funded and strongly supported by Novell. But it should be a community project. We're not there yet but that is
On Wednesday 05 March 2008, Magnus Boman wrote: the long term goal. And as a number of community people work for Novell why should they are allowed only to vote for Novell people? We should deemphasise as much as possible the Novell / non-Novell thing. We are one community. Michael
At the end of the day, it will still be 2 people from each camp.
Cheers, Magnus
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-- Michael Löffler, Product Management SUSE LINUX Products GmbH - Nürnberg - AG Nürnberg - HRB 16746 - GF: Markus Rex --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
El dc 05 de 03 del 2008 a les 12:52 +0100, en/na Michael Loeffler va escriure:
Jordi,
On Wed, 2008-03-05 at 12:24 +0100, Jordi Massaguer Pla wrote:
El dc 05 de 03 del 2008 a les 22:15 +1100, en/na Magnus Boman va
escriure:
On Wed, 2008-03-05 at 11:59 +0100, Oliver Bengs wrote:
Hi,
Am Wed, 05 Mar 2008 07:08:12 +0100
schrieb Pascal Bleser :
So please start shooting ideas, brainstorming, thinking out loud. The key questions are: * Who can vote ?
Novell employees can only vote Novell employees and the community only community members.
I agree with Bernhard.
I do not agree at all. If we can not choose the Novell and not Novell, this will never be a community project, it will be a Novell project pretending to be a community. Member votes should be for both for the Novell and the not Novell sits. This way, every electable person should present his/her proposals for the openSUSE distribution. If you want to be a little democratic, let your community choose. Novell already chooses the chairman.
I don't see you point. If everyone (regardless of who they work for) are allowed to vote for whoever they want, how will that make it a Novell project? I don't think it's a Novell project. It's funded and strongly supported by Novell. But it should be a community project. We're not there yet but that is
On Wednesday 05 March 2008, Magnus Boman wrote: the long term goal. And as a number of community people work for Novell why should they are allowed only to vote for Novell people? We should deemphasise as much as possible the Novell / non-Novell thing. We are one community.
completely agree.
Michael
At the end of the day, it will still be 2 people from each camp.
Cheers, Magnus
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-- Jordi Massaguer i Pla openTrends Solucions i Sistemes, S.L. Torre Llacuna C/Llacuna 166, 10º 1ª A 08018 Barcelona Phone: (+34) 93 320 84 14 Fax: (+34) 93 300 35 27 --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
El dc 05 de 03 del 2008 a les 22:15 +1100, en/na Magnus Boman va
escriure:
On Wed, 2008-03-05 at 11:59 +0100, Oliver Bengs wrote:
Hi,
Am Wed, 05 Mar 2008 07:08:12 +0100
schrieb Pascal Bleser :
So please start shooting ideas, brainstorming, thinking out loud. The key questions are: * Who can vote ? What about all people signed in here: https://users.opensuse.org/ and signed
Hi, On Wednesday 05 March 2008, Jordi Massaguer Pla wrote: the Guiding Principles?
Novell employees can only vote Novell employees and the community only community members.
I agree with Bernhard.
I do not agree at all. If we can not choose the Novell and not Novell, this will never be a community project, it will be a Novell project pretending to be a community. Member votes should be for both for the Novell and the not Novell sits. This way, every electable person should present his/her proposals for the openSUSE distribution. If you want to be a little democratic, let your community choose. Novell already chooses the chairman. Yes, just the chairmam should be appointed by Novell. Everybody else should vote for anybody.
* Who can we vote for ?
Everyone can suggest someone and the suggested person must be ready to do this job.
You can't force anyone to participate if they don't want to. I would recommend that 1) People who wants to be on the board volunteers for it and 2) People can vote for someone who they want on the board and said person can either accept or decline the "invitation" +1
agree. It needs to be volunteer.
* How long should the voting period be ?
At first we should collect the persons who can be voted. After that we need some time to make a choice. (booth maybe a month) Then (maybe 2 weeks) to give the vote.
Sounds good to me. +1 M
ok.
Cheers, Magnus
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-- Michael Löffler, Product Management Email: michl@suse.de Phone: +49 911 74053-376 SUSE LINUX Products GmbH - Nürnberg - AG Nürnberg - HRB 16746 - GF: Markus Rex --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Michael Loeffler a écrit :
Yes, just the chairmam should be appointed by Novell. Everybody else should vote for anybody.
anybody should be allowed to vote, but not for anybody. Let's show an example. say the ten first choices after the vote are non Novell. choices 1 and 2 are elected. but then you have to look at the 11th on the list (novell)? And what mean Novell? does that mean "presented by Novell on a list", or only apponted by Novell? what if he's only the Novells house keeper? what if resign from Novell two month after? what if he's fired by Novell? what if the board member is _employed_ by Novell after hes election? No. Th only clean way is to have Novell choose (and renew is fired or dismiss) they members and all the community choose the (2) others jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://clairedodin.voices.com/ http://www.clairedodin.com/ http://claire.dodin.net/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Hi, Good questions in there, that need to be clearly documented. Le mercredi 05 mars 2008 à 12:59 +0100, jdd a écrit :
Michael Loeffler a écrit :
Yes, just the chairmam should be appointed by Novell. Everybody else should vote for anybody.
anybody should be allowed to vote, but not for anybody.
Let's show an example. say the ten first choices after the vote are non Novell.
choices 1 and 2 are elected. but then you have to look at the 11th on the list (novell)?
No, you vote twice: once for candidates that are not Novell employees and once for candidates that are Novell employees. So you wouldn't look at the 11th on the list.
And what mean Novell? does that mean "presented by Novell on a list", or only apponted by Novell?
I have no idea, but I would love this to be "someone who wants to be a candidate and is working for Novell", and not someone appointed by Novell.
what if he's only the Novells house keeper?
He's still working for Novell :-)
what if resign from Novell two month after? what if he's fired by Novell?
I suggest he'd have to resign from the board and that either the board appoint a new person to fill the empty spot, or that there's a new vote for this spot.
what if the board member is _employed_ by Novell after hes election?
Same thing. The board member should resign and someone else should join (by being appointed by the rest of the board, or being elected with a new vote).
No. Th only clean way is to have Novell choose (and renew is fired or dismiss) they members and all the community choose the (2) others
I think the community can still prefer to see Novell employee A instead of Novell employee B in the board. So it makes sense to let the community elect the Novell people on the board too. Just my €0.02, Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Vincent Untz a écrit :
No, you vote twice: once for candidates that are not Novell employees and once for candidates that are Novell employees. So you wouldn't look at the 11th on the list.
so two lists, one filled by Novell and the other by volunteers. well. How many candidates on novells list? jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://clairedodin.voices.com/ http://www.clairedodin.com/ http://claire.dodin.net/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Le mercredi 05 mars 2008 à 13:43 +0100, jdd a écrit :
Vincent Untz a écrit :
No, you vote twice: once for candidates that are not Novell employees and once for candidates that are Novell employees. So you wouldn't look at the 11th on the list.
(just to clarify: it was just a suggestion)
so two lists, one filled by Novell and the other by volunteers.
I wouldn't say "filled by Novell", but a list of Novell employees. It doesn't mean the same thing to me.
well.
How many candidates on novells list?
No idea, but does it matter? Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
jdd, On Wed, 2008-03-05 at 13:43 +0100, jdd wrote:
Vincent Untz a écrit :
No, you vote twice: once for candidates that are not Novell employees and once for candidates that are Novell employees. So you wouldn't look at the 11th on the list.
so two lists, one filled by Novell and the other by volunteers.
well.
How many candidates on novells list?
My 5 cents; Anyone who wants to be on the board should apply for it. It should not matter if you are working for Novell or not, but it should be made clear in the 'application'. Also, anyone can nominate anyone *else* as to be a board member. It should then be made clear if that's a community member or a Novell employee.
jdd
Cheers, Magnus --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
>> Vincent Untz a écrit : >> >>> No, you vote twice: once for candidates that are not Novell employees >>> and once for candidates that are Novell employees. So you wouldn't look >>> at the 11th on the list. >> so two lists, one filled by Novell and the other by volunteers. Seconded, though why should Novell put up more than 2 candidates for their 2 places? In which case, 2 separate votes become irrelevant. I appreciate that they (Novell) want to retain control of a project that they largely fund - this is not unreasonable - but if it turns out that the board voting is consistently split along Novell / Community lines I fear the Community members are unlikely to remain there very long. For electing the two Community members : > Anyone who wants to be on the board should apply for it. It should not > matter if you are working for Novell or not, but it should be made clear > in the 'application'. > Also, anyone can nominate anyone *else* as to be a board member. - with their prior consent - > It should then be made clear if that's a community member or a Novell > employee. I would not expect Novell employees to stand unless selected by their employer, so I don't think this is likely to be very relevant. I'm also assuming that the Chair is one of the 2 Novell placings, with a casting vote in the event of ties. -- Cheers Richard (MQ) (still hoping to become a formal OpenSuSE member...) --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Wed, 2008-03-05 at 15:42 +0000, Richard (MQ) wrote: > >> Vincent Untz a écrit : > >> > >>> No, you vote twice: once for candidates that are not Novell employees > >>> and once for candidates that are Novell employees. So you wouldn't look > >>> at the 11th on the list. > >> so two lists, one filled by Novell and the other by volunteers. > > Seconded, though why should Novell put up more than 2 candidates for > their 2 places? In which case, 2 separate votes become irrelevant. I agree, and it's a good thing that Novell does *not* 'put up' these 2 candidates. > > I appreciate that they (Novell) want to retain control of a project that > they largely fund - this is not unreasonable - but if it turns out that > the board voting is consistently split along Novell / Community lines I > fear the Community members are unlikely to remain there very long. The 2 Novell Employees you are referring to will not be elected by Novell, but by the openSUSE Community[1]. There is a 5th member that will be selected by Novell but that's a different story and does not call for a discussion in this thread. > > For electing the two Community members : > > > Anyone who wants to be on the board should apply for it. It should not > > matter if you are working for Novell or not, but it should be made clear > > in the 'application'. > > Also, anyone can nominate anyone *else* as to be a board member. > - with their prior consent - > > It should then be made clear if that's a community member or a Novell > > employee. > > I would not expect Novell employees to stand unless selected by their > employer, so I don't think this is likely to be very relevant. The 2 positions open for Novell Employees will be elected by the openSUSE Community[1] so it's very relevant. > > I'm also assuming that the Chair is one of the 2 Novell placings, with a > casting vote in the event of ties. No, it is not. The 5th member is the 'Novell placing'. Cheers, Magnus [1] It is still to be decided who can vote but I chose to call it the 'openSUSE Community' in this mail to make it clear that it has nothing much to do with Novell. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Hello, on Mittwoch, 5. März 2008, Vincent Untz wrote:
Le mercredi 05 mars 2008 à 12:59 +0100, jdd a écrit :
Michael Loeffler a écrit :
what if resign from Novell two month after? what if he's fired by Novell?
I suggest he'd have to resign from the board and that either the board appoint a new person to fill the empty spot, or that there's a new vote for this spot.
What about a simpler solution for this (hopefully rare) case that someone leaves the board? I'd simply check the last election results for the person with the third-most votes [1]. (S)he would then automatically be in the board. What I'm missing in the discussion right now is: How often should be elections? Every year? Every two years? ...? Regards, Christian Boltz [1] assumed that we have a Novell and a community list, and the two people with most votes from each list are in the board initially -- Ich frage mich, ob es einen richtigen Browser als Active-X Applet für den MSIE gibt? [K. Köhntopp] --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Am Mittwoch, 5. März 2008 schrieb Christian Boltz:
What about a simpler solution for this (hopefully rare) case that someone leaves the board?
I'd simply check the last election results for the person with the third-most votes [1]. (S)he would then automatically be in the board. Agreed.
What I'm missing in the discussion right now is: How often should be elections? Every year? Every two years? ...?
Every year sounds good, possibly combined with what others said: elect the top vote peoples for two years and reelect only 2 persons. What this would mean in case someone is stepping back is a tough question - so possibly it's doing us no good. Greetings, Stephan --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
El dc 05 de 03 del 2008 a les 12:59 +0100, en/na jdd va escriure:
Michael Loeffler a écrit :
Yes, just the chairmam should be appointed by Novell. Everybody else should vote for anybody.
anybody should be allowed to vote, but not for anybody.
Let's show an example. say the ten first choices after the vote are non Novell.
choices 1 and 2 are elected. but then you have to look at the 11th on the list (novell)?
And what mean Novell? does that mean "presented by Novell on a list", or only apponted by Novell?
what if he's only the Novells house keeper?
what if resign from Novell two month after? what if he's fired by Novell?
what if the board member is _employed_ by Novell after hes election?
That is a good point. But that can happens whether we voted or not for them. I mean, should we not vote to the board members just in case they get an employment in Novell? If any of the two happens, they should leave their sit. But to whom? Or should it be empty? Being empty would be a very bad situation. Actually what it is really very bad is this restriction of being two Novell and two not Novell (we already have a Novell chairman that can decide anything).
No. Th only clean way is to have Novell choose (and renew is fired or dismiss) they members and all the community choose the (2) others
jdd
-- Jordi Massaguer i Pla openTrends Solucions i Sistemes, S.L. Torre Llacuna C/Llacuna 166, 10º 1ª A 08018 Barcelona Phone: (+34) 93 320 84 14 Fax: (+34) 93 300 35 27 --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Am Wed, 5 Mar 2008 12:47:12 +0100 schrieb Michael Loeffler:
Hi, On Wednesday 05 March 2008, Jordi Massaguer Pla wrote:
El dc 05 de 03 del 2008 a les 22:15 +1100, en/na Magnus Boman va
escriure:
On Wed, 2008-03-05 at 11:59 +0100, Oliver Bengs wrote:
Hi,
Am Wed, 05 Mar 2008 07:08:12 +0100
schrieb Pascal Bleser :
So please start shooting ideas, brainstorming, thinking out loud. The key questions are: * Who can vote ? What about all people signed in here: https://users.opensuse.org/ and signed the Guiding Principles?
I like this Idea. Can this also be the answer of
* Who can we vote for ? I would see, which was my origin idea, some people elected who are willing to put their best into openSUSE and people who signed the Guiding Principles should do that.
At first I thougt "employed by Novell" means all people at Novell, but for us it should be "employed by Novell and working at openSUSE" this make more things clear. -- Oliver Bengs Key fingerprint = 8F45 91CA 4038 41D3 2FF7 8A65 D3A3 3358 A16E A024 http://jacklab.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
I like this Idea. Can this also be the answer of
* Who can we vote for ? I would see, which was my origin idea, some people elected who are willing to put their best into openSUSE and people who signed the Guiding Principles should do that.
Except that anyone in this planet with an internet connection can sign the guiding principles one, two or 3 thousand times. Marcio Ferreira --- Druid --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Am Wed, 5 Mar 2008 22:15:54 -0300 schrieb Druid <marcio.ferreira@gmail.com>:
I like this Idea. Can this also be the answer of
> * Who can we vote for ? I would see, which was my origin idea, some people elected who are willing to put their best into openSUSE and people who signed the Guiding Principles should do that.
Except that anyone in this planet with an internet connection can sign the guiding principles one, two or 3 thousand times.
How would you prevent this? Collect the adresses and send them all a mail (not the digital one) with a generated password? Ok this is a solution but there should be better ones. -- Oliver Bengs Key fingerprint = 8F45 91CA 4038 41D3 2FF7 8A65 D3A3 3358 A16E A024 http://jacklab.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
How would you prevent this? Collect the adresses and send them all a mail (not the digital one) with a generated password? Ok this is a solution but there should be better ones.
Of course not. This is the same problem as the first, about identifying a human being unambiguously and avoid that one can end with several votes. Think about that until you come to the conclusion that what you've said has the same problem as the first time. Stop using the thread as a chat. If you have a concise suggestion or idea for the voting, please explain it, if not, just let the space for others. If you are going to give a suggestion, elaborate about it and take a read *before* you hit the send button. I also recommend reading the other emails with care. The issue about any system that may allow mass registration anonymously and maybe in automatic way is bad and was pointed by Benji Weber in one of the first mails. Best regards --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Jordi Massaguer Pla a écrit :
be a little democratic, let your community choose. Novell already chooses the chairman.
is the chairman one more people or choosen between the 4? if so there are 3 novell for 2 community non-novell. and this don't change my word, anybody that is _officially_ elected as Novell employeee will have sooner or later to speak for Novell (or vote for Novell) and so can't be designated by any other than Novell. The problem is "what is your loyalty for"? do you work for Novell, do you work for The people that voted for you? A Novell employee could, at his own risks, be candidate on the open list and vote against Novell is some circomtance, but obviously, if Noveel insisted to have _Novell_ employees in the board it's for keepin it's own interest (and I understand this) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://clairedodin.voices.com/ http://www.clairedodin.com/ http://claire.dodin.net/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
El dc 05 de 03 del 2008 a les 12:52 +0100, en/na jdd va escriure:
Jordi Massaguer Pla a écrit :
be a little democratic, let your community choose. Novell already chooses the chairman.
is the chairman one more people or choosen between the 4?
if so there are 3 novell for 2 community non-novell.
and this don't change my word, anybody that is _officially_ elected as Novell employeee will have sooner or later to speak for Novell (or vote for Novell) and so can't be designated by any other than Novell.
The problem is "what is your loyalty for"? do you work for Novell, do you work for The people that voted for you?
A Novell employee could, at his own risks, be candidate on the open list and vote against Novell is some circomtance, but obviously, if Noveel insisted to have _Novell_ employees in the board it's for keepin it's own interest (and I understand this)
Everyone works somewhere and his personal interests and the company where it works interests may conflict. That's for sure, but also for the community sits. So I do not think that is a reason for not voting them. Nobody should be electable without an "election program", I mean things he/she would do if he/she were elected.
jdd
-- Jordi Massaguer i Pla openTrends Solucions i Sistemes, S.L. Torre Llacuna C/Llacuna 166, 10º 1ª A 08018 Barcelona Phone: (+34) 93 320 84 14 Fax: (+34) 93 300 35 27 --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Am Wed, 05 Mar 2008 22:15:51 +1100 schrieb Magnus Boman <captain.magnus@gmail.com>:
* Who can we vote for ?
Everyone can suggest someone and the suggested person must be ready to do this job.
You can't force anyone to participate if they don't want to. I would recommend that 1) People who wants to be on the board volunteers for it and 2) People can vote for someone who they want on the board and said person can either accept or decline the "invitation"
This is exactly that, what I tried to say. I choose the wrong words ;) -- Oliver Bengs Key fingerprint = 8F45 91CA 4038 41D3 2FF7 8A65 D3A3 3358 A16E A024 http://jacklab.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Oliver Bengs wrote:
Am Wed, 05 Mar 2008 07:08:12 +0100 schrieb Pascal Bleser :
So please start shooting ideas, brainstorming, thinking out loud. The key questions are: * Who can vote ? Novell employees can only vote Novell employees and the community only community members.
I don't think that's a good idea. Because of implementation reasons (as Coolo wrote), but also because a lot of Novell employees are part of the openSUSE community and, as such, they should vote for anyone they like. The separation of 2 Novell employees and 2 non-Novell employees on the board is only to make sure there is a certain amount of independence from Novell on the board (I say a "certain amount", because 3/5 of the board is still made up of Novell employees (2 elected + 1 chair), but that's fine by my book). The point is just that if Novell is your employer and tells you to do or say this or that, it's a tough ride going against that. That, of course, is very hypothetical, and I have strong doubts it is ever going to happen, especially as one of the board's mission is to act as a bridge between Novell and the community. It just wouldn't make any sense. But partitioning the board members as stated in the Guiding Principles makes sense nevertheless.
* Who can we vote for ? Everyone can suggest someone and the suggested person must be ready to do this job.
Two things on this: - - I really think that only openSUSE members should be eligible: they are proven contributors and they have signed the Guiding Principles - - one should vote for people they trust, they agree with (wrt their opinions on the openSUSE community), their programme/priorities (if we will have such a thing ;)), but also for people who have time to devote to getting things done [...] cheers - -- -o) Pascal Bleser <pascal.bleser@opensuse.org> /\\ http://opensuse.org -- I took the green pill _\_v FOSDEM::23+24 Feb 2008, Brussels, http://fosdem.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHzxopr3NMWliFcXcRAsVuAKC/3WkPaMBjqCIt9E5t8tD/aLaghwCfUMzl 45qiF0nLZKyFsKQqkVIabF8= =KQ+q -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Pascal Bleser a écrit :
The point is just that if Novell is your employer and tells you to do or say this or that, it's a tough ride going against that. That, of course, is very hypothetical,
exactly my point
The separation of 2 Novell employees and 2 non-Novell employees on the board is only to make sure there is a certain amount of independence from Novell on the board (I say a "certain amount", because 3/5 of the board is still made up of Novell employees (2 elected + 1 chair), but that's fine by my book).
so why vote for 4? vote for 2. in fact it's Novell himself (sorry, I don't know if "Novell" is "it" or "he " - why not she :-) that made the distinction :-() jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://clairedodin.voices.com/ http://www.clairedodin.com/ http://claire.dodin.net/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Am Mittwoch, 5. März 2008 schrieb jdd:
so why vote for 4? vote for 2.
in fact it's Novell himself (sorry, I don't know if "Novell" is "it" or "he " - why not she :-) that made the distinction :-()
So asking you directly: you don't care at all who of Novell is representing the openSUSE project? So it's fine with you if Novell would send Paris Hilton (if she was employed)? Or wouldn't you prefer that the majority of the board are people you know (and possibly even trust more than Paris). Greetings, Stephan --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Oliver Bengs escribió:
Novell employees can only vote Novell employees and the community only community members.
huh ? that makes no sense and pretty much invalidates the voting process.. -- "Morality is merely an interpretation of certain phenomena — more precisely, a misinterpretation." - Friedrich Nietzsche Cristian Rodríguez R. Platform/OpenSUSE - Core Services SUSE LINUX Products GmbH Research & Development http://www.opensuse.org/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Cristian Rodríguez <crrodriguez@suse.de> writes:
Oliver Bengs escribió:
Novell employees can only vote Novell employees and the community only community members.
huh ? that makes no sense and pretty much invalidates the voting process..
It was done at the Free Standards Group: The board had e.g. two community seats and two commercial member seats and community members could only vote for the community seats, and commercial members for the commercial seats... I don't remember the rationale of that process but it's an option used by others. From what I've read here so far the consensus is that this is not what we want for openSUSE, Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, Director Platform / openSUSE, aj@suse.de SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126
On Wed, Mar 5, 2008 at 1:08 AM, Pascal Bleser <pascal.bleser@opensuse.org> wrote:
Secondly, we do think that members should have a higher weight, as they have signed the Guiding Principles and are recognized as active contributors. Maybe we should even restrict the right to vote to "official members". To be discussed.
The logistics on this are going to be tough. We should probably limit voting to members who have signed the Guiding Principles as we need some way to verify that each person only gets one vote.
So please start shooting ideas, brainstorming, thinking out loud.
One thing that I didn't see here -- what about a nomination process, beforehand? We should establish that anyone in the running *wants* to serve on the board.
The key questions are: * Who can vote ?
Members should be able to vote.
* Who can we vote for ?
Members should be able to vote for all four seats, regardless of whether they're employed by Novell or not.
* How long should the voting period be ?
Ideally, I think we should have a nomination period of two weeks -- give people time to express interest and decide to run and/or allow the community to nominate those people they want on the board. Then, we should have a campaign period for candidates to talk about their platforms for the board. Again, I think at least two weeks are called for. Finally, we should allow two weeks for voting.
We shall collect that information and map/reduce it into something practicable as well as add our own ideas. The result of that process will be published and discussed here, as well as on IRC meetings. The current plan is to make a public board IRC meeting, possibly on Monday 17th, or the week thereafter if we don't have enough results yet -- we'll announce it on this list accordingly.
Just a point of interest here -- Monday 17th is during BrainShare, and a lot of Novell employees are going to be heavily occupied that day. The following week would probably be better. Best, Zonker -- Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier openSUSE Community Manager jzb@zonker.net http://zonker.opensuse.org/ http://www.dissociatedpress.net/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On 05/03/2008, Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier <jzb@zonker.net> wrote:
On Wed, Mar 5, 2008 at 1:08 AM, Pascal Bleser <pascal.bleser@opensuse.org> wrote:
Secondly, we do think that members should have a higher weight, as they have signed the Guiding Principles and are recognized as active contributors. Maybe we should even restrict the right to vote to "official members". To be discussed.
The logistics on this are going to be tough. We should probably limit voting to members who have signed the Guiding Principles as we need some way to verify that each person only gets one vote.
Defining the electorate is indeed difficult. Signing the guiding principles is one of the requirements for membership, so all members will have signed them. There is no problem with allowing members to vote. There is a problem if we want to allow people who are not members to vote. Anyone may also sign the guiding principles by creating an account on users.opensuse.org - There is no way of preventing one person from creating hundreds of accounts on users.opensuse.org, or that they actually agree to the guiding principles just because they tick the box on users.opensuse.org. I can't think of a good way of allowing people who are not members to vote without risking allowing people to sabotage the openSUSE elections and vote in someone unsuitable. There are ways to reduce the risk. e.g. multiple rounds of voting; voters approved by members; However, these do not really solve either the problem of a board-elected electorate, or the problem of malicious people influencing the outcome. I would be interested if anyone can propose a system whereby non-members can also vote. -- Benjamin Weber --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Wed, 2008-03-05 at 13:37 +0000, Benji Weber wrote:
I can't think of a good way of allowing people who are not members to vote without risking allowing people to sabotage the openSUSE elections and vote in someone unsuitable. There are ways to reduce the risk. e.g. multiple rounds of voting; voters approved by members; However, these do not really solve either the problem of a board-elected electorate, or the problem of malicious people influencing the outcome.
I would be interested if anyone can propose a system whereby non-members can also vote.
Some sort of personally identifiable (and verifiable) information could be requested, such as a legal name, phone number, and address. The phone number and address can readily be verified against each other (the number +1 905-XXX-YYYY can be associated with Ontario, Canada for instance), and you can always call it to verify the person on the other end is the person that voted. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On 05/03/2008, Justin Haygood <jhaygood@reaktix.com> wrote:
I would be interested if anyone can propose a system whereby non-members can also vote.
Some sort of personally identifiable (and verifiable) information could be requested, such as a legal name, phone number, and address. The phone number and address can readily be verified against each other (the number +1 905-XXX-YYYY can be associated with Ontario, Canada for instance), and you can always call it to verify the person on the other end is the person that voted.
Well you can confirm that a voter is a real person easily enough by this or other methods, but how do you confirm that they have anything at all todo with the openSUSE project? It would be like allowing the entire world to vote in one country's elections. -- Benjamin Weber --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Wed, 2008-03-05 at 14:38 +0000, Benji Weber wrote:
On 05/03/2008, Justin Haygood <jhaygood@reaktix.com> wrote:
I would be interested if anyone can propose a system whereby non-members can also vote.
Some sort of personally identifiable (and verifiable) information could be requested, such as a legal name, phone number, and address. The phone number and address can readily be verified against each other (the number +1 905-XXX-YYYY can be associated with Ontario, Canada for instance), and you can always call it to verify the person on the other end is the person that voted.
Well you can confirm that a voter is a real person easily enough by this or other methods, but how do you confirm that they have anything at all todo with the openSUSE project? It would be like allowing the entire world to vote in one country's elections.
Phone numbers aren't a good indicator in this day and age. With people migrating to different places, I often see people who move but keep their old cellphone number for at least 2 years after they've moved. And since more and more people are giving up landlines for cellphones as their personal number, it further prevents validity of location based on area code. Bryen --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Bryen wrote:
Phone numbers aren't a good indicator in this day and age. With people migrating to different places, I often see people who move but keep their old cellphone number for at least 2 years after they've moved. And since more and more people are giving up landlines for cellphones as their personal number, it further prevents validity of location based on area code.
Area codes have also been completely abandoned in some places. /Per Jessen, Zürich --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Wed, 2008-03-05 at 14:38 +0000, Benji Weber wrote:
On 05/03/2008, Justin Haygood <jhaygood@reaktix.com> wrote:
I would be interested if anyone can propose a system whereby non-members can also vote.
Some sort of personally identifiable (and verifiable) information could be requested, such as a legal name, phone number, and address. The phone number and address can readily be verified against each other (the number +1 905-XXX-YYYY can be associated with Ontario, Canada for instance), and you can always call it to verify the person on the other end is the person that voted.
Well you can confirm that a voter is a real person easily enough by this or other methods, but how do you confirm that they have anything at all todo with the openSUSE project? It would be like allowing the entire world to vote in one country's elections.
Maybe require a minimum membership requirements such as: 1. User signed the guiding principles at least 2 months prior to voting 2. User contributed in verifiable significant way, i.e., reported bugs, fixed bugs, translated stuff, helped people on IRC, etc... Even if a user doesn't use openSUSE as a primary distribution, but does contribute to the greater good of the openSUSE project, they'd be allowed to vote. However, this would leave out users of openSUSE who do nothing more than consume the project as a whole. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Justin Haygood a écrit :
Some sort of personally identifiable (and verifiable) information could be requested, such as a legal name, phone number, and address. The phone number
http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2008-03/msg00012.html any comment? (end of post) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://clairedodin.voices.com/ http://www.clairedodin.com/ http://claire.dodin.net/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Benji Weber wrote:
I would be interested if anyone can propose a system whereby non-members can also vote.
What about allowing votes only: 1. From (or at any rate, purporting to be from) email addresses registered on some specific date e.g. on 1 Jan 2008 as users on OpenSuSE Wiki, on one of the SuSE related fora (*), or maybe other related sites. We'd need to have a fairly broad range cover most active users. 2. Requiring confirmation of the voting email before accepting it (by replying with a hash code that must be returned as validation) (*) requires co-operation of the forum operators, either to release a list of email addresses or to agree to check submitted addresses against their private list. -- Just my half-a-groat's worth. Richard (MQ) --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
El dc 05 de 03 del 2008 a les 13:37 +0000, en/na Benji Weber va escriure:
On 05/03/2008, Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier <jzb@zonker.net> wrote:
On Wed, Mar 5, 2008 at 1:08 AM, Pascal Bleser <pascal.bleser@opensuse.org> wrote:
Secondly, we do think that members should have a higher weight, as they have signed the Guiding Principles and are recognized as active contributors. Maybe we should even restrict the right to vote to "official members". To be discussed.
The logistics on this are going to be tough. We should probably limit voting to members who have signed the Guiding Principles as we need some way to verify that each person only gets one vote.
Defining the electorate is indeed difficult. Signing the guiding principles is one of the requirements for membership, so all members will have signed them. There is no problem with allowing members to vote. There is a problem if we want to allow people who are not members to vote. Anyone may also sign the guiding principles by creating an account on users.opensuse.org - There is no way of preventing one person from creating hundreds of accounts on users.opensuse.org, or that they actually agree to the guiding principles just because they tick the box on users.opensuse.org.
I can't think of a good way of allowing people who are not members to vote without risking allowing people to sabotage the openSUSE elections and vote in someone unsuitable. There are ways to reduce the risk. e.g. multiple rounds of voting; voters approved by members; However, these do not really solve either the problem of a board-elected electorate, or the problem of malicious people influencing the outcome.
I would be interested if anyone can propose a system whereby non-members can also vote.
I think only members should vote. Membership is defined as people who has done or does stuff for openSUSE and really wants openSUSE be better. These should be the ones allowed to vote. Moreover, as only members were allowed to vote, more people would like to be members and join activelly openSUSE. Otherwise, it is too easy to sabotage.
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On Mar 5, 2008, at 7:23 AM, Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier wrote:
The logistics on this are going to be tough. We should probably limit voting to members who have signed the Guiding Principles as we need some way to verify that each person only gets one vote.
They can be in the User Directory and not support the Guiding Principals.
One thing that I didn't see here -- what about a nomination process, beforehand? We should establish that anyone in the running *wants* to serve on the board.
Agreed.
The key questions are: * Who can vote ?
Members should be able to vote.
Don't agree. As I stated previously, the voting should not just be limited to Members, just those that are in the User Directory.
* Who can we vote for ?
Members should be able to vote for all four seats, regardless of whether they're employed by Novell or not.
* How long should the voting period be ?
Ideally, I think we should have a nomination period of two weeks -- give people time to express interest and decide to run and/or allow the community to nominate those people they want on the board.
Then, we should have a campaign period for candidates to talk about their platforms for the board. Again, I think at least two weeks are called for.
Finally, we should allow two weeks for voting.
We shall collect that information and map/reduce it into something practicable as well as add our own ideas. The result of that process will be published and discussed here, as well as on IRC meetings. The current plan is to make a public board IRC meeting, possibly on Monday 17th, or the week thereafter if we don't have enough results yet -- we'll announce it on this list accordingly.
Just a point of interest here -- Monday 17th is during BrainShare, and a lot of Novell employees are going to be heavily occupied that day. The following week would probably be better.
Agree to above ;-) Kevin "Yo" Dupuy | Linux Mail: <kevin.dupuy@opensuse.org> Swift Change for a Green Future: Kat Swift for President <VoteSwift.org> --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
The key questions are: * Who can vote ?
Members should be able to vote.
Don't agree. As I stated previously, the voting should not just be limited to Members, just those that are in the User Directory.
I don't agree. It's too easy to be part of the user directory, even without doing anything for openSUSE. You just get an account and you can be there. If the election has to be serious, it can't be open to people without a clue of what is going on in the project and without knowing who they're voting. Regards, Alberto --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Onsdag den 5. Marts 2008 07:08:12 skrev Pascal Bleser:
So please start shooting ideas, brainstorming, thinking out loud. The key questions are:
* Who can vote ?
Signed guiding principles should be the very least. No clue how to best identify unique individuals to avoid cheating.
* Who can we vote for ?
Anyone who wants to run, I guess - maybe only members should be allowed to run.
* How long should the voting period be ?
Maybe 2-3 weeks after the deadline for people to announce their candidacy.
* How should elections work ? (from an organisational and technical POV)
I'd suggest that board members are elected for a period of two years, and that only two board members are up for election per year (one Novell, one non-Novell). This way some consistency in the board is ensured - as opposed to the risk of the entire board being replaced in one election. It would probably be a good idea to also elect some substitutes - one non-Novell and one Novell - in case someone has a tragic accident, decides to jump ship, etc. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
I'd suggest that board members are elected for a period of two years, and that only two board members are up for election per year (one Novell, one non-Novell). This way some consistency in the board is ensured - as opposed to the risk of the entire board being replaced in one election.
It would probably be a good idea to also elect some substitutes - one non-Novell and one Novell - in case someone has a tragic accident, decides to jump ship, etc.
I agree. :-) --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Mar 5, 2008, at 12:08 AM, Pascal Bleser wrote:
The key questions are: * Who can vote ? Anybody who is registered with the openSUSE User Directory. This makes it the fairest and easiest. Restricting voters to the Members would NOT be a good idea, as it would seem to the rest of the community that the Board is choosing there electorate. * Who can we vote for ? Perhaps the nominees for Board elections should be restricted to the Members? That way, they have already put a lot into the project. * How long should the voting period be ? I've heard this in the thread already, but I think 1 month for the candidates to sign up. The actual election should last a week maybe? * How should elections work ? (from an organisational and technical POV) Perhaps it could be integrated into the Users directory. Either way, it should be a private vote. cheers Have a great day!
Kevin "Yo" Dupuy | Linux Mail: <kevin.dupuy@opensuse.org> Swift Change for a Green Future: Kat Swift for President '08 <VoteSwift.org> --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Wed, Mar 5, 2008 at 10:30 PM, Kevin Dupuy <kevindupuy@bellsouth.net> wrote:
On Mar 5, 2008, at 12:08 AM, Pascal Bleser wrote:
The key questions are: * Who can vote ? Anybody who is registered with the openSUSE User Directory. This makes it the fairest and easiest. Restricting voters to the Members would NOT be a good idea, as it would seem to the rest of the community that the Board is choosing there electorate.
This doesn't answer the criticisms already listed above against such a method, which are a little severe: * One person can set up 30 accounts, make a single click of the box, and then have access to 30 votes worth * This method allows *anyone* from *anywhere* to vote. However, do we really want someone not involved in openSUSE in any way to have a say in electing the people that are set to lead the openSUSE project? Kind thoughts, -- Francis Giannaros http://francis.giannaros.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Wed, 5 Mar 2008, Pascal Bleser wrote:
We (the board) would like to start working on a proposal for organising the elections of the next board.
The key questions are: * Who can vote ?
I think that we should have a requirement of involement. A post to one of the lists or IRC, combined with user.opensuse.org and a signed Guiding principle. There should be a cut off from about 1 month prior to the election. This would/could stop the posion pill. The list of people allowed then could be verified. That is why I suggested the site. It automates everything. The main advantage is everyone has to have opted in to vote by meeting the requirements. What I like about the system is for instance you vote for the top 4 people per group. That is the you choose 4 from Novell employess and 4 from the community. The top 4 vote getters would be known. This would allow for replacements based on votes should the requirement for a replacement be needed.
* Who can we vote for ?
I feel every qualified person should be able to vote. That is why I suggested a minimum requirement of email or IRC envolvement. This demostrates some interest in OpenSUSE.
* How long should the voting period be ?
I like the period to be one or two weeks. This allows usually for vacations and such.
* How should elections work ? (from an organisational and technical POV)
I like a month of noninations with acceptance. This would also allow for those interested in the postitions to provide a short intro and what they would like to accomplish as part of the board. Followed by either one or two weeks to cast the vote. This would make elections a maximum of 6 weeks. -- Boyd Gerber <gerberb@zenez.com> ZENEZ 1042 East Fort Union #135, Midvale Utah 84047 --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
participants (24)
-
Alberto Passalacqua -
Andreas Jaeger -
Benji Weber -
Bernhard Walle -
Boyd Lynn Gerber -
Bryen -
Christian Boltz -
Cristian Rodríguez -
Druid -
Francis Giannaros -
jdd -
Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier -
Jordi Massaguer Pla -
Justin Haygood -
Kevin Dupuy -
Magnus Boman -
Martin Schlander -
Michael Loeffler -
Oliver Bengs -
Pascal Bleser -
Per Jessen -
Richard (MQ) -
Stephan Kulow -
Vincent Untz