Hi all.
I have noticed the Strategy Discussion on the news:
http://news.opensuse.org/2010/05/20/opensuse-strategy-meeting/
and would like to share some ideas. As I was off for quite a while (helping out on Fedora/CentOS as well, e.g. organizing this years FUDCon EMEA) I want to point those who don't remember me to my personal page on the wiki, first: http://en.opensuse.org/User:MarcusMoeller
But now back to the topic. The SWOT doc already contains some useful information, but first question I would like to ask is what are you heading for?
Imho there are two major points: the product itself and the community around it.
I have picked up some imported points from the SWOT and commented below:
W: Novell is not seen - like Red Hat - as Open Source friend `-> this is definitely true. Maybe Novell could act as Sponsor for more oS events. But first of all, Novell should communicate their aims clearly (besides 'We support Linux, as long we are making money from it', which is what a large part of the community thinks). Besides that, recently announced Novell products like 'ZENworks Application Virtualization' are only available for Windows and there are no clear statements if there will be a Linux version available, ever (which Red Hat clearly communicated to their community/customers with their latest virtualization product RHEV, where all components will be available for Linux, too.)
S: decent .net support with mono (?) `-> this is only visible for a real small part of the community. Most of them does not really accept the joint-venture with M$ (which has not been communicated very well in the past) and see not benefits in Mono. We have to point out the real advantages of interoperability, here. Maybe some good example (maybe even commercial) .NET apps that work on Windows as well as on Linux would help.
W: Bad QA `-> I once brought up the idea of an open QA group, where every interested contributor could take part. Afterwards it has been announced, but with limited slots (afair 30 ppl) Why that? If ppl want to contribute, please let them! Maybe: http://en.opensuse.org/Testing_Team has to be re-introduced, either in the news or in weekly newsletter. (which would be in general a good idea, to introduce team and is how we handle it at CentOS)
W: lots of cool features are not documented, thus not used or integrated `-> At Fedora, the artwork team recently introduced the one page release notes, which contains the highlights of the newly released distribution. I would suggest to create one for oS, too (we need a good designer and one who has some Scribus knowledge for that, maybe gnokii or jimmac could help out there.)
T: Distribution becomes a commodity and all distributions become more or less equal `-> yeah, it would be nice to only have one distro in the future, but I guess that won't happen :)
S: no appstore `-> Gamestore could be taken as base. Pavol already did some nice work on that.
W: factory not very usable `-> I would suggest to release less, but better tested milestones and RCs
W: no openSUSE community manager even when there is an openSUSE community manager `-> I think that's not fair for zonker. He had some good ideas and spent a lot of effort in different areas. Maybe he was just not that known/visible outside the openSUSE community (and maybe even inside). I would also suggest to remove spotlight.os.org, lizards.os.org and only use the planet and the news. Besides that news should be also announced on social networks like identi.ca and linux.com. I spent some effort on that, but was quite alone, till now. (Besides that, if you like my ideas, you could try to hire me, but only part-wise as I like my main job :))
W: no organized (language-)local communities, nothing that connects them to the openSUSE.org project; Ambassadors not functional `-> the ambassadors project started quite chaotic. The main complaints where missing swag and support from Novell. But the groundwork has been done now and this is where the plants will grow.
W: not enough presence on universities (but that applies for FOSS in general ...) `-> we are already doing oS install fests twice a year (on new students laptops) here at the ETH where usually about 40 ppl attend. Maybe we could just communicate it better, to motivate others to do the same. (Btw. asked for swag this year, but did not even get a reply since zonker is gone).
O: alot of control ceded to the community in the past year and just need to be taken `-> this needs to be described clearly. Which are the areas where ppl can contribute?
E.g. package maintaining is very unstructured. first of all there has to be a mentor process, clear package guidelines, followed by a review process. Every approved packager should be able to do package reviews, afterwards, despises which 'package group' he/she is packaging for.
Mentoring is necessary for the Ambassadors project as well.
T: next gen is not interested in low-level stuff such as OSes any more, so we'll get an old community ... `-> Maybe not an OS community but at least a Ruby one :)
S: boosters team `-> clearly communicate what they are doing or hide it completely from the public. What's happening now is quite worse. (e.g. website updates not announced, will the wiki content be moved over via script or manually, as saigkill already started to move the weekly news manually, how is wiki i18n handled in the future). All that could be avoided with communication. If necessary, one needs to be hired blogging about what boosters are doing, regularly. A FAQ for the website renewal would also help.
So nough said for today (which is only a minimal subset of my ideas :))
Best Regards Marcus
On Thursday 20 May 2010 21:22:53 Marcus Moeller wrote:
Hi all.
I have noticed the Strategy Discussion on the news:
http://news.opensuse.org/2010/05/20/opensuse-strategy-meeting/
and would like to share some ideas. As I was off for quite a while (helping out on Fedora/CentOS as well, e.g. organizing this years FUDCon EMEA) I want to point those who don't remember me to my personal page on the wiki, first: http://en.opensuse.org/User:MarcusMoeller
But now back to the topic. The SWOT doc already contains some useful information, but first question I would like to ask is what are you heading for?
Imho there are two major points: the product itself and the community around it.
We'd like to create a strategy overall that includes the distribution, the tools - especially the build service - and for sure the community around them.
I have picked up some imported points from the SWOT and commented below:
Please keep in mind that the SWOT is the result of a brainstorming session - completly unfiltered or edit - and not a scientific text. So, I'm sure it contains a couple of errors.
W: Novell is not seen - like Red Hat - as Open Source friend `-> this is definitely true. Maybe Novell could act as Sponsor for more oS events. But first of all, Novell should communicate their aims
This is an interesting question in itself. Will throwing money at Open Source events help here?
clearly (besides 'We support Linux, as long we are making money from it', which is what a large part of the community thinks). Besides
Novell builds it's future on Open Source and that's more than supporting it. It sure wants to make some money with it otherwise I wouldn't get paid ;).
that, recently announced Novell products like 'ZENworks Application Virtualization' are only available for Windows and there are no clear statements if there will be a Linux version available, ever (which Red Hat clearly communicated to their community/customers with their latest virtualization product RHEV, where all components will be available for Linux, too.)
S: decent .net support with mono (?) `-> this is only visible for a real small part of the community. Most of them does not really accept the joint-venture with M$ (which has not been communicated very well in the past) and see not benefits in Mono. We have to point out the real advantages of interoperability, here. Maybe some good example (maybe even commercial) .NET apps that work on Windows as well as on Linux would help.
W: Bad QA `-> I once brought up the idea of an open QA group, where every interested contributor could take part. Afterwards it has been announced, but with limited slots (afair 30 ppl) Why that? If ppl want to contribute, please let them! Maybe: http://en.opensuse.org/Testing_Team has to be re-introduced, either in the news or in weekly newsletter. (which would be in general a good idea, to introduce team and is how we handle it at CentOS)
the 30 people was a result of the decision to use testopia - and we're currently going through a security audit so that we can open it up for everybody. 30 people was the *core* team - and I think it makes sense to start with a small team. Contribution is possible by everybody with reporting bugs. I expect this limitation to go away and if that does not happen soon, let's look for alternative tools that don't limit us!
W: lots of cool features are not documented, thus not used or integrated `-> At Fedora, the artwork team recently introduced the one page release notes, which contains the highlights of the newly released distribution. I would suggest to create one for oS, too (we need a good designer and one who has some Scribus knowledge for that, maybe gnokii or jimmac could help out there.)
Interesting idea - could you discuss that one on the opensuse-marketing list, please?
T: Distribution becomes a commodity and all distributions become more or less equal `-> yeah, it would be nice to only have one distro in the future, but I guess that won't happen :)
It won't happen soon indeed. Today more and more is done upstream instead of part of a distribution which is a good move - and that means some differences disappear.
S: no appstore `-> Gamestore could be taken as base. Pavol already did some nice work on that.
W: factory not very usable `-> I would suggest to release less, but better tested milestones and RCs
Another interesting point - let's discuss it separately.
W: no openSUSE community manager even when there is an openSUSE community manager `-> I think that's not fair for zonker. He had some good ideas and
As I've said this is an unfiltered version of brainstorm - not the consensus of the complete team.
spent a lot of effort in different areas. Maybe he was just not that known/visible outside the openSUSE community (and maybe even inside). I would also suggest to remove spotlight.os.org, lizards.os.org and only use the planet and the news. Besides that news should be also announced on social networks like identi.ca and linux.com. I spent
Do you follow @openSUSE on identi.ca? News are announced there.
some effort on that, but was quite alone, till now. (Besides that, if you like my ideas, you could try to hire me, but only part-wise as I like my main job :))
Join us in the marketing team and discuss your idea, please!
W: no organized (language-)local communities, nothing that connects them to the openSUSE.org project; Ambassadors not functional `-> the ambassadors project started quite chaotic. The main complaints where missing swag and support from Novell. But the groundwork has been done now and this is where the plants will grow.
Yes, for sure!
W: not enough presence on universities (but that applies for FOSS in general ...) `-> we are already doing oS install fests twice a year (on new students laptops) here at the ETH where usually about 40 ppl attend. Maybe we could just communicate it better, to motivate others to do the same. (Btw. asked for swag this year, but did not even get a reply since zonker is gone).
Mmh, I'm the default contact here and I try to answer everybody that asks - sorry if that one fell through.
O: alot of control ceded to the community in the past year and just need to be taken `-> this needs to be described clearly. Which are the areas where ppl can contribute?
The list of areas where people cannot contribute right now is far smaller - and we're working hard to make that list empty ;). So, assume that you can contribute everywhere :-)
E.g. package maintaining is very unstructured. first of all there has to be a mentor process, clear package guidelines, followed by a review process. Every approved packager should be able to do package reviews, afterwards, despises which 'package group' he/she is packaging for.
If you enough packagers like to go this way, then let's go for it and document the process etc.
Mentoring is necessary for the Ambassadors project as well.
Yes.
T: next gen is not interested in low-level stuff such as OSes any more, so we'll get an old community ... `-> Maybe not an OS community but at least a Ruby one :)
S: boosters team `-> clearly communicate what they are doing or hide it completely from the public. What's happening now is quite worse. (e.g. website updates not announced, will the wiki content be moved over via script or manually, as saigkill already started to move the weekly news manually, how is wiki i18n handled in the future). All that could be avoided with communication. If necessary, one needs to be hired blogging about what boosters are doing, regularly. A FAQ for the website renewal would also help.
So nough said for today (which is only a minimal subset of my ideas :))
Better bring them in one by one so that we can discuss and implement them without losing track ;)
Thanks!
Please note that the strategy discussion looks at the big picture first - and then we'll have to see what this means for all the details,
Andreas
On Fri, May 21, 2010 at 22:52, Andreas Jaeger wrote:
W: Novell is not seen - like Red Hat - as Open Source friend `-> this is definitely true. Maybe Novell could act as Sponsor for more oS events. But first of all, Novell should communicate their aims
This is an interesting question in itself. Will throwing money at Open Source events help here?
That's a tough one... throwing money at it probably isn't the solution... neither is ignoring it.
Open source events are... in my opinion, under-marketed. Take the upcoming LinuxTag in Berlin. Some of us (who are close enough to attend) know about it... I go every year... but even though I know about it, I tend to totally forget about it until it's almost too late.. because it's not marketed.. it's not "in my face" so to speak. It's a nice event...
Or another.. the OOoCon. This year it's in Budapest... how many outside of the regulars know about it?
What open source events, or openSUSE events are people going to be interested in? What target audience would we aim for? The new user? The developer? How do you get the word out to that target audience?
C.
On Fri, 2010-05-21 at 23:12 +0200, C wrote:
On Fri, May 21, 2010 at 22:52, Andreas Jaeger wrote:
W: Novell is not seen - like Red Hat - as Open Source friend `-> this is definitely true. Maybe Novell could act as Sponsor for more oS events. But first of all, Novell should communicate their aims
This is an interesting question in itself. Will throwing money at Open Source events help here?
That's a tough one... throwing money at it probably isn't the solution... neither is ignoring it.
Open source events are... in my opinion, under-marketed. Take the upcoming LinuxTag in Berlin. Some of us (who are close enough to attend) know about it... I go every year... but even though I know about it, I tend to totally forget about it until it's almost too late.. because it's not marketed.. it's not "in my face" so to speak. It's a nice event...
Or another.. the OOoCon. This year it's in Budapest... how many outside of the regulars know about it?
What open source events, or openSUSE events are people going to be interested in? What target audience would we aim for? The new user? The developer? How do you get the word out to that target audience?
C.
So, what is the end achievement goal that we want to accomplish with this? Yes, I would like to see Novell and/or openSUSE Community sponsor more events. Name recognition and mindshare is important.
While our final strategy statement will certainly have some marketing requirements in order to effectively implement our strategy, the ultimate goal of a strategy is define how we do business amongst ourselves as a community.
So, in the context of this particular topic (event sponsorship) we must identify what is the strategic strength we gain from sponsoring events. The answer may seem obvious in our minds already, but once we actually put it down into words, that's when it suddenly becomes even clearer. :-)
Keep this discussion going, we love it!
Bryen M Yunashko openSUSE Board Member
On Fri, May 21, 2010 at 5:43 PM, Bryen M. Yunashko suserocks@bryen.com wrote:
On Fri, 2010-05-21 at 23:12 +0200, C wrote:
On Fri, May 21, 2010 at 22:52, Andreas Jaeger wrote:
W: Novell is not seen - like Red Hat - as Open Source friend `-> this is definitely true. Maybe Novell could act as Sponsor for more oS events. But first of all, Novell should communicate their aims
This is an interesting question in itself. Will throwing money at Open Source events help here?
That's a tough one... throwing money at it probably isn't the solution... neither is ignoring it.
Open source events are... in my opinion, under-marketed. Take the upcoming LinuxTag in Berlin. Some of us (who are close enough to attend) know about it... I go every year... but even though I know about it, I tend to totally forget about it until it's almost too late.. because it's not marketed.. it's not "in my face" so to speak. It's a nice event...
Or another.. the OOoCon. This year it's in Budapest... how many outside of the regulars know about it?
What open source events, or openSUSE events are people going to be interested in? What target audience would we aim for? The new user? The developer? How do you get the word out to that target audience?
C.
So, what is the end achievement goal that we want to accomplish with this? Yes, I would like to see Novell and/or openSUSE Community sponsor more events. Name recognition and mindshare is important.
While our final strategy statement will certainly have some marketing requirements in order to effectively implement our strategy, the ultimate goal of a strategy is define how we do business amongst ourselves as a community.
So, in the context of this particular topic (event sponsorship) we must identify what is the strategic strength we gain from sponsoring events. The answer may seem obvious in our minds already, but once we actually put it down into words, that's when it suddenly becomes even clearer. :-)
Keep this discussion going, we love it!
Bryen M Yunashko openSUSE Board Member
Personally, I'm not that impressed by sponsorships, especially related to OpenSource events. It seems too commercial. Swag is always nice, but it doesn't need to be in our face and I'm not sure it really does that much anyway.
For me the best thing opensuse could to is speakers at events.
==> For instance
Our local ambassador said he is going to have a OpenSuse booth at the SELF event in the US in a few weeks. (No idea if Novell is contributing support / swag).
http://southeastlinuxfest.org/
But of the 50 or so speakers, none are talking about OpenSUSE, OBS, etc.
http://www.southeastlinuxfest.org/node/62
Admittedly only 2 on Ubuntu and 1 on Fedora, but both of those numbers are bigger than zero.
At least for myself, I'd rather see interesting speakers / speeches than a booth. And I assume speakers cost less than booths and swag. It could be as simple as tracking events like SELF and using the various opensuse mailing lists to encourage a few speakers to volunteer. Who knows, if I'd known about SELF in time I might have volunteered to give an OBS intro talk. It's only a couple hours drive.
I occasionally see a "call for papers", but that sounds like speaking about new research/development activity to me. I'm sure opensuse is doing that as well, but what I'd like to see is speakers talking about OpenSuse / Novells contributions to opensource.
For instance, there are a lot of Novell employed full-time kernel developers. I'd love to have seen a speaker at FEST with a talking slot which simply summarized Novell employee contributions to the linux kernel over the last 5 years.
Ideal in my mind would be to have someone travel the world to events like FEST and give that same presentation, but if it can't be done, make the presentation with good notes available and hopefully a local kernel hacker could have been recruited to give the presentation.
fyi: Our local enthusiasts group (ale.org) had at least 3 opensuse related talks last year, which is 25% of the total. Very impressive, but it was all local members volunteering to talk to a rather closed group of people. And we had to prepare our own materials I believe (I talked about OBS as a last minute fill-in for a cancellation with a totally different topic.)
I found a presentation that was given about OBS at FOSDEM I think it was. But it was really not designed for someone like me to pick it up and run with it. I ended up just picking a few slides from that and doing a live demo.
Greg
Le 22/05/2010 00:18, Greg Freemyer a écrit :
I found a presentation that was given about OBS at FOSDEM I think it was. But it was really not designed for someone like me to pick it up and run with it. I ended up just picking a few slides from that and doing a live demo.
I don't think presentations are the main thing. They are onloy used by specialists.
The most effective way of promotion is *free dvd*. openSUSE is a very good distribution. Most people using it keep it, but they have to first get a hand on it. Downloading a new distro is not that usual for beginners, trying a live dvd is.
basic things like sticker, are also very usefull. Don't underestimate old gadgets :-).
Ubuntu made it's success with cd donation. Of course it can be very expensive, so better use the ambassador channel. Any ambassador should receive 20 or 50 free dvd as subscription gift :-)
jdd
On 05/22/2010 12:12 PM, jdd wrote:
Le 22/05/2010 00:18, Greg Freemyer a écrit :
I found a presentation that was given about OBS at FOSDEM I think it was. But it was really not designed for someone like me to pick it up and run with it. I ended up just picking a few slides from that and doing a live demo.
I don't think presentations are the main thing. They are onloy used by specialists.
The most effective way of promotion is *free dvd*. openSUSE is a very good distribution. Most people using it keep it, but they have to first get a hand on it. Downloading a new distro is not that usual for beginners, trying a live dvd is.
basic things like sticker, are also very usefull. Don't underestimate old gadgets :-).
Ubuntu made it's success with cd donation. Of course it can be very expensive, so better use the ambassador channel. Any ambassador should receive 20 or 50 free dvd as subscription gift :-)
Hello,
Yes that sounds really good.Also I feel instead of sponsoring in/the Open Source events (by Novell), the money should be utilized in this direction. That is -
1) Cd/Dvd's 2) Stickers/posters 3) Event Kit (may be costly,but better than sponsoring events) 4) Ambassador T-shirts 5) and so on . . .
P.S - To be honest , I hardly care who sponsors an event (When I visit them,Until its something I have to do with in personal) , its just the freebies or some worthy stuff I take along when I leave ;)
jdd
On 05/22/2010 01:41 PM, Shayon Mukherjee wrote:
On 05/22/2010 12:12 PM, jdd wrote:
Le 22/05/2010 00:18, Greg Freemyer a écrit :
I found a presentation that was given about OBS at FOSDEM I think it was. But it was really not designed for someone like me to pick it up and run with it. I ended up just picking a few slides from that and doing a live demo.
I don't think presentations are the main thing. They are onloy used by specialists.
The most effective way of promotion is *free dvd*. openSUSE is a very good distribution. Most people using it keep it, but they have to first get a hand on it. Downloading a new distro is not that usual for beginners, trying a live dvd is.
basic things like sticker, are also very usefull. Don't underestimate old gadgets :-).
Ubuntu made it's success with cd donation. Of course it can be very expensive, so better use the ambassador channel. Any ambassador should receive 20 or 50 free dvd as subscription gift :-)
Hello,
Yes that sounds really good.Also I feel instead of sponsoring in/the Open Source events (by Novell), the money should be utilized in this direction. That is -
- Cd/Dvd's
- Stickers/posters
- Event Kit (may be costly,but better than sponsoring events)
- Ambassador T-shirts
- and so on . . .
P.S - To be honest , I hardly care who sponsors an event (When I visit them,Until its something I have to do with in personal) , its just the freebies or some worthy stuff I take along when I leave ;)
In short , First priority should be too build a strong infrastructure then go publich.Well we already too much public ;) (so I guess not a matter of concern now) .
jdd
Am Samstag, 22. Mai 2010, 10:11:23 schrieb Shayon Mukherjee:
On 05/22/2010 12:12 PM, jdd wrote:
Le 22/05/2010 00:18, Greg Freemyer a écrit :
I found a presentation that was given about OBS at FOSDEM I think it was. But it was really not designed for someone like me to pick it up and run with it. I ended up just picking a few slides from that and doing a live demo.
I don't think presentations are the main thing. They are onloy used by specialists.
The most effective way of promotion is *free dvd*. openSUSE is a very good distribution. Most people using it keep it, but they have to first get a hand on it. Downloading a new distro is not that usual for beginners, trying a live dvd is.
basic things like sticker, are also very usefull. Don't underestimate old gadgets :-).
Ubuntu made it's success with cd donation. Of course it can be very expensive, so better use the ambassador channel. Any ambassador should receive 20 or 50 free dvd as subscription gift :-)
Hello,
Yes that sounds really good.Also I feel instead of sponsoring in/the Open Source events (by Novell), the money should be utilized in this direction. That is -
- Cd/Dvd's
- Stickers/posters
- Event Kit (may be costly,but better than sponsoring events)
- Ambassador T-shirts
- and so on . . .
P.S - To be honest , I hardly care who sponsors an event (When I visit them,Until its something I have to do with in personal) , its just the freebies or some worthy stuff I take along when I leave ;)
jdd
Ugh let's not spend money that's not really on the table here =) I prefer Novell to employ hackers working on different parts in the opensource stack and making it visible they are doing so, Novells reputation here does not reflect their actual investment here I think, though it's not as bad as Canonical in this regard ;-)
Karsten
** Reply Requested by 5/24/2010 (Monday) **
Karsten Königremur@gmx.net 22 Maio, 2010 >>>
Am Samstag, 22. Mai 2010, 10:11:23 schrieb Shayon Mukherjee:
On 05/22/2010 12:12 PM, jdd wrote:
Le 22/05/2010 00:18, Greg Freemyer a écrit :
I found a presentation that was given about OBS at FOSDEM I think
it
was. But it was really not designed for someone like me to pick
it up
and run with it. I ended up just picking a few slides from that
and
doing a live demo.
I don't think presentations are the main thing. They are onloy used
by
specialists.
The most effective way of promotion is *free dvd*. openSUSE is a
very
good distribution. Most people using it keep it, but they have to first get a hand on it. Downloading a new distro is not that usual
for
beginners, trying a live dvd is.
basic things like sticker, are also very usefull. Don't
underestimate
old gadgets :-).
Ubuntu made it's success with cd donation. Of course it can be
very
expensive, so better use the ambassador channel. Any ambassador
should
receive 20 or 50 free dvd as subscription gift :-)
Hello,
Yes that sounds really good.Also I feel instead of sponsoring in/the Open Source events (by Novell), the money should be utilized in this direction. That is -
- Cd/Dvd's
- Stickers/posters
- Event Kit (may be costly,but better than sponsoring events)
- Ambassador T-shirts
- and so on . . .
P.S - To be honest , I hardly care who sponsors an event (When I
visit
them,Until its something I have to do with in personal) , its just
the
freebies or some worthy stuff I take along when I leave ;)
jdd
Ugh let's not spend money that's not really on the table here =)
I >prefer Novell to employ hackers working on different parts in the opensource
stack and making it visible they are doing so, Novells reputation here
does
not reflect their actual investment here I think, though it's not as
bad as
Canonical in this regard ;-)
Not only DVD's, Stickers/posters. Event kits, ambassador t-shirts, but neither only hacking guys.
We need to find a way to have a balanced investment. I like the idea of Novell be sponsor of some hackers, but let's remember this was done before for Samba Team, AppArmor Team, Mono Team...... My question is what happens with all of this investments. Not all of them but most part of my friends from SAMBA, AppArmor and Mono, is not working for Novell anymore !!! Someone have the answers for this questions? Why Novell decided to not run anymore with this Hack guys?
Karsten -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Mon, 24 May 2010, Carlos Ribeiro wrote:
My question is what happens with all of this investments. Not all of them but most part of my friends from SAMBA, AppArmor and Mono, is not working for Novell anymore !!! Someone have the answers for this questions? Why Novell decided to not run anymore with this Hack guys?
Not sure what you are after, but I assume you are aware of the fact that Novell is paying hundreds of engineers to work on Linux and Linux-based products? And that's not even counting my team or me where we are hacking in the evenings and weekends mostly. ;-)
Open Source project are what we (as contributors) make them.
openSUSE is what we (as contributors) make it.
Gerald
On Tue, May 25, 2010 at 3:43 PM, Gerald Pfeifer gp@novell.com wrote:
On Mon, 24 May 2010, Carlos Ribeiro wrote:
My question is what happens with all of this investments. Not all of them but most part of my friends from SAMBA, AppArmor and Mono, is not working for Novell anymore !!! Someone have the answers for this questions? Why Novell decided to not run anymore with this Hack guys?
Not sure what you are after, but I assume you are aware of the fact that Novell is paying hundreds of engineers to work on Linux and Linux-based products? And that's not even counting my team or me where we are hacking in the evenings and weekends mostly. ;-)
Open Source project are what we (as contributors) make them.
openSUSE is what we (as contributors) make it.
Gerald
I don't know if Carlos knows, but it is NOT well known in my opinion. And having the main marketing prepare presentations that team members around the globe can use for small and large events would really help to get the word out IMHO.
fyi: A few years ago I attended an all day Intel / RH roadshow. It only had one speaker at a time, but all they did was delve into Linux contributions that one of two had made. In general it focused on stuff released in the last 12 months, but it also had some coming attractions kinds of things.
My thought is the core team develop a few presentations like the above every 6 months or so. Then reserve it for big events the first month or so it's available and maybe even only use Novell people to give the initial presentations. But after that make it available for anyone to use at local events.
Greg
** Reply Requested by 5/26/2010 (Wednesday) **
Sorry, but I think some guys had misunderstood my points or maybe I was not so clear in my words.
Then I'll try again
I know that Novell investiment in open source is quite high, I also had worked, and it was not too long ago. Some good friends left Novell and others continue it until today. But my question is not about this, yet.
My question is what happens with all of this investments.
Maybe Novell has changed that investment to another area, or other projects, or even dedicated to the marketing department, perhaps due to some strategic change Novell's forced change of focus for investments, or simply continuing to invest in the same area, hack guys.
- Not only DVD's, Stickers/posters. Event kits, ambassador t-shirts, but neither only hacking guys. - What is meant for the above sentence refers to a balance of investments and not just invest in either option, mainly because these investments have force only in conjunction. - I also guessing Novell keep hiring this guys. And this was my reply for
I prefer Novell to employ hackers working on different parts in the open source stack And making it visible they are doing so, Novells reputation here does not reflect their actual investment here I think, though it's not as bad as Canonical in this regard ;-)
Am I wrong on my opinion ?
And for the final misunderstood part
them but most part of my friends from SAMBA, AppArmor And Mono, is not working for Novell anymore !!! Someone have the answers for this questions? Why Novell decided to not run anymore with this Hack guys?
Some friends that I know do not work more for Novell but like me still running as contributors, business partners, ... helping not only the tools And proprietary solutions from Novell but also open source, I mean, mostly. So the investment that was for them surely is being allocated to another area or project, my question is, Does anyone know which?
"Why Novell Decided not to run anymore with this hack guys?" Why Novell is no longer working with these people - I miss them - ? changed its focus, or the project in which they worked for is no longer a priority or even been completed ? I just don't know the answer.
I was not trying to be rude in my words, but I apologize to those who so erroneously interpreted that way.
Anyway, thank you for the informations And opinions, it is better that nothing, Also I can say that the fruit of this discussion may arise in some other topic that is important for the project - I think - , for example, Which area development community would like to see Novell investing. I don't know. Do you know ?
I remember once I put myself as a responsible to bring their Microsoft And Novell agreements doubts And questions straight to Novell executives And SLED And SLES product managers. They had selected 10 questions as result of a BIG FORUM LIST, in case I'm talking about a site that have about 1.2 to 1.5 million hits per month. Then I committed to bringing the responses once a every week. To assure the reliability of the users on "WHAT'S ABOUT NOVELL" - FOR LONG 10 WEEKS ;-) The result was extremely valuable And reflected mostly fine.
We could do something similar by putting a questionnaire to the community where they could not just ask questions but mostly tell us information that I think is important, for example:
- Which companies of medium And large sizes use openSUSE in their environments - including companies from Africa, Latin America And Orient.
- For companies that use openSUSE, for what reasons they use openSUSE?
- If not using the opensuse, what is the reason?
- Is there anything that the opensuse project can do to help you to use openSUSE And may recommend the utilization ?
- What are their preferred projects And interests in the openSUSE project, SUSE educational suseStudio, obs ... ?
- In which open source events they really like to see openSUSE project?
I do not know if this questionnaire has already been done some time, If so how to get those results, but I do believe that this information is extremely valuable to the future of the openSUSE project
Sorry again For the possible misunderstood, but as I told you before I was not trying to be rude or something like that.
Relax Be open Be SUSE Be openSUSE
;-)
Greg Freemyer greg.freemyer@gmail.com 25 Maio, 2010 >>>
On Tue, May 25, 2010 at 3:43 PM, Gerald Pfeifer gp@novell.com wrote:
On Mon, 24 May 2010, Carlos Ribeiro wrote:
My question is what happens with all of this investments. Not all of them but most part of my friends from SAMBA, AppArmor and Mono, is not working for Novell anymore !!! Someone have the answers for this questions? Why Novell decided to not run anymore with this Hack guys?
Not sure what you are after, but I assume you are aware of the fact that Novell is paying hundreds of engineers to work on Linux and Linux-based products? And that's not even counting my team or me where we are hacking in the evenings and weekends mostly. ;-)
Open Source project are what we (as contributors) make them.
openSUSE is what we (as contributors) make it.
Gerald
I don't know if Carlos knows, but it is NOT well known in my opinion. And having the main marketing prepare presentations that team members around the globe can use for small and large events would really help to get the word out IMHO.
fyi: A few years ago I attended an all day Intel / RH roadshow. It only had one speaker at a time, but all they did was delve into Linux contributions that one of two had made. In general it focused on stuff released in the last 12 months, but it also had some coming attractions kinds of things.
My thought is the core team develop a few presentations like the above every 6 months or so. Then reserve it for big events the first month or so it's available and maybe even only use Novell people to give the initial presentations. But after that make it available for anyone to use at local events.
Greg -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Tuesday 25 May 2010 22:37:32 Greg Freemyer wrote:
And having the main marketing prepare presentations that team members around the globe can use for small and large events would really help to get the word out IMHO.
Yes, that's one of the goals of the marketing team - any help on this is more than welcome!
Andreas
** Reply Requested by 5/26/2010 (Wednesday) **
Gerald.
I also agree with you, And just because this I'm here right now giving my little cents as contributions for the project.
Gerald Pfeifer gp@novell.com 25 Maio, 2010 >>>
On Mon, 24 May 2010, Carlos Ribeiro wrote: My question is what happens with all of this investments. Not all of them but most part of my friends from SAMBA, AppArmor And Mono, is not working for Novell anymore !!! Someone have the answers for this questions? Why Novell decided to not run anymore with this Hack guys?
Not sure what you are after, but I assume you are aware of the fact that Novell is paying hundreds of engineers to work on Linux And Linux-based products? And that's not even counting my team or me where we are hacking in the evenings And weekends mostly. ;-)
Open Source project are what we (as contributors) make them.
openSUSE is what we (as contributors) make it.
- As I said, I'm not only agree with your statements but I also help (as contributors) to make what we see for openSUSE today.
Gerald
Dr. Gerald Pfeifer gp@novell.com | SUSE Linux Products GmbH Director Product Management | HRB 16746 (AG Nuremberg) SUSE Linux Enterprise, openSUSE, Appliances | GF Markus Rex -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Le samedi 22 mai 2010, à 08:42 +0200, jdd a écrit :
Le 22/05/2010 00:18, Greg Freemyer a écrit :
I found a presentation that was given about OBS at FOSDEM I think it was. But it was really not designed for someone like me to pick it up and run with it. I ended up just picking a few slides from that and doing a live demo.
I don't think presentations are the main thing. They are onloy used by specialists.
I beg to disagree: the stuff you're giving away at a conference is only remembered by people who attend the event, while a talk can be much more visible. It will be in the program schedule, people not coming to the event will see there was one and we'll likely get invited to other events, this can help get media attention, etc.
I'm not saying a booth is not important; both are and we should work on both. Arguably, it's easier for people to help on a booth than to deliver a talk; but we could provide slides + notes about some topics that people could take and use for a talk at a local event.
Cheers,
Vincent
Le 24/05/2010 11:58, Vincent Untz a écrit :
I beg to disagree: the stuff you're giving away at a conference is only remembered by people who attend the event, while a talk can be much more visible. It will be in the program schedule, people not coming to the event will see there was one and we'll likely get invited to other events, this can help get media attention, etc.
may be true - depends of the event media plan
I'm not saying a booth is not important; both are and we should work on both. Arguably, it's easier for people to help on a booth than to deliver a talk; but we could provide slides + notes about some topics that people could take and use for a talk at a local event.
deliver a talk is not that difficult, I do this quite often. What is difficult is to have an audience :-)). of course, if you have a break through info...
the more difficult is to be able to go to the event :-((
jdd
** Reply Requested by 5/24/2010 (Monday) **
jdd jdd@dodin.org 22 Maio, 2010 >>>
Le 22/05/2010 00:18, Greg Freemyer a écrit :
I found a presentation that was given about OBS at FOSDEM I think it was. But it was really not designed for someone like me to pick it
up
and run with it. I ended up just picking a few slides from that and doing a live demo.
I don't think presentations are the main thing. They are onloy used
by
specialists.
Sorry mate, but I quite disagree with previous message. Presentations are the most important thing. Is this the only time e have to share what are we doing, where are we going to, show our differentiators and at least is the time to create realationship. Most business and this include gain more customers, fans, sponsors, developers, .... is also based on relationship not only price, technical features, . If after a presentatin they trusts us, they probably will try our solution. Just because they faced a dedicated one up there that says "we are here to work together" "we are here to establish a strong partnership", "tell us your difficulties and I give my words that I'll spread the message inside the board"
The most effective way of promotion is *free dvd*. openSUSE is a very good distribution. Most people using it keep it, but they have to first get a hand on it. Downloading a new distro is not that usual
for
beginners, trying a live dvd is.
The first thing is "openSUE is a very good distribuition" I agree. Second we have more than one way to let they try. SUSE Studio, SUSE Edu-Li-f-e, Live CD's,... Again, in my opinion Free DVD's is important but .... without support, help, relationship, and without first introductions, free dvd's is incomplete - This first steps using opensuse also could be in format of small videos avaliable on the desktops area of live DVD's, CD's. And this small introductions and usage videos also could be done by openSUSE fans, like they are already doing and publishing on Youtube.
basic things like sticker, are also very usefull. Don't underestimate old gadgets :-).
I agree
Ubuntu made it's success with cd donation. Of course it can be very expensive, so better use the ambassador channel. Any ambassador
should
receive 20 or 50 free dvd as subscription gift :-)
Do you really believe the main success of Ubuntu was "CD Donations" ? I don't think so, but this could be for another topic ;-)
jdd
-- http://www.dodin.net http://www.facebook.com/pages/I-support-the-Linux-Documentation-Project/3720... http://www.facebook.com/pages/The-fan-page-of-Claire-Dodin/106485119372062?v... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Le 24/05/2010 19:02, Carlos Ribeiro a écrit :
Do you really believe the main success of Ubuntu was "CD Donations" ? I don't think so, but this could be for another topic ;-)
yes, no doubt (of course it succeded because it's a good distro also :-!, but Debian was also)
jdd
-------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [opensuse-project] Strategy Discussion From: Andreas Jaeger aj@novell.com To: opensuse-project@opensuse.org Date: Sat May 22 2010 05:52:41 GMT+0900 (JST)
Please note that the strategy discussion looks at the big picture first - and then we'll have to see what this means for all the details,
I'd like to go back to basic once again and talk about fundamental strategies for openSUSE, that is, what we should aim at as openSUSE Project.
In marketing point of view, it is very important to define who are our *customers* and imagine what are their needs. "Of course, everyone and everything!" would be the easiest but an empty answer for this question and let us argue in a circle.
Who are our customers may depends upon where we stand. As a distributer, users (and potencial users) are our main customers. But as a project, developers and contributers might be the more important customers than mere users. Obviously, the strategies will be differ from each other.
So, let's see our users first.
Looking at the result of our last survay[1], our current typical users are 20 to 39 years old (total 66.4%) men (98.1%) who are experienced in using computer (total 96.9%), use Windows in addition to openSUSE (61.6%) and do not participate in the openSUSE project (64.3%). They use openSUSE mostly for their personal use (59.7%) and don't use openSUSE as a server (56.4%). They value stability (82.1%), security (71.0%) and hardware support (63.7%) when they choose operating system and very strongly expect openSUSE to support much more desktop (55.6%)/netbook (36.9%) hardwares.
I know there are so called silent majority behind, but we can imagine current typical openSUSE users at least.
What we should discuss here is, whether we should focus in particular on the polish and enhancement of our current advantages or spend time with our current weaknesses. In other words, which we should more focus in, our current experienced users or persons who haven't been interested in using openSUSE ever? "Both" may be the ideal answer here, but in that case we have to condsider the priority, because the necessary methods may vary according to which we choose.
[1] http://en.opensuse.org/images/3/3a/SurveySummary_03012010.pdf
Unfortunately I don't have enough time to write my further thoughts and opinions on this topic right now, but above is one of the points that I think we have to share and think about when we discuss our strategy.
I'd like to thank everyone who are involved in this topic and attend the meeting today, and hope the meeting will be productive and all attendee will have fun. ;-)
Best,
Satoru Matsumoto wrote:
-------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [opensuse-project] Strategy Discussion From: Andreas Jaeger aj@novell.com To: opensuse-project@opensuse.org Date: Sat May 22 2010 05:52:41 GMT+0900 (JST)
Please note that the strategy discussion looks at the big picture first - and then we'll have to see what this means for all the details,
I'd like to go back to basic once again and talk about fundamental strategies for openSUSE, that is, what we should aim at as openSUSE Project.
+1.
In marketing point of view, it is very important to define who are our *customers* and imagine what are their needs. "Of course, everyone and everything!" would be the easiest but an empty answer for this question and let us argue in a circle. Who are our customers may depends upon where we stand. As a distributer, users (and potencial users) are our main customers. But as a project, developers and contributers might be the more important customers than mere users. Obviously, the strategies will be differ from each other.
I think we can take a step further back - what are our intentions with openSUSE, i.e. what are openSUSEs reasons for being? Back when it was SuSE Linux, the intention was quite clear and business-like - selling lots of boxed copies, thereby creating the income stream to fund continued development and support. If that business model still applies, the openSUSE project needs to work towards that. If the model has changed, we must try to understand what it is now, and then steer the project that way. If, for instance, the project is aiming to become primarily a volunteer effort, strongly backed by Novell funding (infrastructure, staff etc), we need to aim at attracting volunteer contributors and developers.
/Per Jessen, Zürich
Le 28/05/2010 09:15, Per Jessen a écrit :
the project that way. If, for instance, the project is aiming to become primarily a volunteer effort, strongly backed by Novell funding (infrastructure, staff etc), we need to aim at attracting volunteer contributors and developers.
looks like it's the case :-)
And we could think we have to adress first the case of the users that try openSUSE bit *don't* stay with it.
Users that stay with us, we know them :-) Users that don't know openSUSE we have to give them a dvd :-) Burt people that leave openSUSE after using it are the main challenge: what did we do wrong??
jdd
jdd wrote:
Le 28/05/2010 09:15, Per Jessen a écrit :
the project that way. If, for instance, the project is aiming to become primarily a volunteer effort, strongly backed by Novell funding (infrastructure, staff etc), we need to aim at attracting volunteer contributors and developers.
looks like it's the case :-)
Yeah, I think so too, but I wanted to keep the options open. It would also seem sensible to understand why Novell is backing the project, and try to steer the project in a direction that secures that funding.
And we could think we have to adress first the case of the users that try openSUSE bit *don't* stay with it.
Well, I think we need to look first at (continuing to) attracting volunteer contributors and developers - what makes openSUSE attractive to those people? Second, what makes openSUSE attractive to Novell (I'm guessing we know the answer to that question), and then work towards that. If we can define a strategy that satisfies those two, we have the resources to cover number 3 - making openSUSE attractive to the newbie end-user.
/Per Jessen, Zürich
On Fri, 28 May 2010, Per Jessen wrote:
Well, I think we need to look first at (continuing to) attracting volunteer contributors and developers - what makes openSUSE attractive to those people? Second, what makes openSUSE attractive to Novell (I'm guessing we know the answer to that question), and then work towards that. If we can define a strategy that satisfies those two, we have the resources to cover number 3 - making openSUSE attractive to the newbie end-user.
I think that makes a lot sense.
As for answering question two: First of all, growing Linux overall is something dear to our hearts, and that includes enthusiasts, students, significant others thereof,... in terms of users. Second, evolving the state of the art in Linux, both in terms of individual projects and the integration into a distribution is something we consider key. And third, it would be kind of hard to create an Enterprise distribution from scratch every couple of years.
That's my quick, non-scientific five minute take.
Gerald
Please note that the strategy discussion looks at the big picture first
and then we'll have to see what this means for all the details,
I'd like to go back to basic once again and talk about fundamental strategies for openSUSE, that is, what we should aim at as openSUSE Project.
In marketing point of view, it is very important to define who are our *customers* and imagine what are their needs. "Of course, everyone and everything!" would be the easiest but an empty answer for this question and let us argue in a circle.
Who are our customers may depends upon where we stand. As a distributer, users (and potencial users) are our main customers. But as a project, developers and contributers might be the more important customers than mere users. Obviously, the strategies will be differ from each other.
From a strategy point of view, the question isn't who our customers are, but
who we want as customers. This is, in part, conditioned by who our customers are at present but in the main by how we want to differentiate ourselves from the competition.
I'm no expert, but I think our customers are the people or organisations who provide us with the resources we need to operate. We provide them with something of value to the in return.
That gives us 3 groups of customers, who can then be subdivided:
1) Novell 2) Users of openSuSE 3) Developers and contributors
The key group of customers is the users, as without them there is no value for Novell and no differentiator for the developers and contributors.
So, I would argue that the first point in the strategy must be what kind of customers we are targeting and what we are offering that is different from the other Linux distributions ...
I personally like the stability / reliability / predictability and the Europeanness (multilingual & character sets etc.)
David
Administrator wrote:
From a strategy point of view, the question isn't who our customers are, but who we want as customers. This is, in part, conditioned by who our customers are at present but in the main by how we want to differentiate ourselves from the competition.
+1
I'm no expert, but I think our customers are the people or organisations who provide us with the resources we need to operate. We provide them with something of value to the in return.
+1
That gives us 3 groups of customers, who can then be subdivided:
- Novell
- Users of openSuSE
- Developers and contributors
The key group of customers is the users, as without them there is no value for Novell and no differentiator for the developers and contributors.
Bit of a catch-22, coz' without developers and contributors, there's nothing for the users.
/Per Jessen, Zürich
From a strategy point of view, the question isn't who our customers are, but who we want as customers. This is, in part, conditioned by who our customers are at present but in the main by how we want to differentiate ourselves from the competition.
+1
I'm no expert, but I think our customers are the people or organisations who provide us with the resources we need to operate. We provide them with something of value to the in return.
+1
That gives us 3 groups of customers, who can then be subdivided:
- Novell
- Users of openSuSE
- Developers and contributors
The key group of customers is the users, as without them there is no value for Novell and no differentiator for the developers and contributors.
Bit of a catch-22, coz' without developers and contributors, there's nothing for the users.
True, my statement is just about the critical group. You're right, the strategy needs to encompass all three. I'd argue that we need to start with the users.
David
Administrator wrote:
That gives us 3 groups of customers, who can then be subdivided:
- Novell
- Users of openSuSE
- Developers and contributors
The key group of customers is the users, as without them there is no value for Novell and no differentiator for the developers and contributors.
Bit of a catch-22, coz' without developers and contributors, there's nothing for the users.
True, my statement is just about the critical group. You're right, the strategy needs to encompass all three. I'd argue that we need to start with the users.
I think we need to start with developers and contributors - as far as I'm aware, we have a solid end user base, which isn't declining. Growing it is certainly desirable, but to do that, I think we need to grow the technical base first.
/Per Jessen, Zürich
That gives us 3 groups of customers, who can then be subdivided:
- Novell
- Users of openSuSE
- Developers and contributors
The key group of customers is the users, as without them there is no value for Novell and no differentiator for the developers and contributors.
Bit of a catch-22, coz' without developers and contributors, there's nothing for the users.
True, my statement is just about the critical group. You're right, the strategy needs to encompass all three. I'd argue that we need to start with the users.
I think we need to start with developers and contributors - as far as I'm aware, we have a solid end user base, which isn't declining. Growing it is certainly desirable, but to do that, I think we need to grow the technical base first.
Your statement is, in effect, that we already have what we need. That, I think, needs to be reviewed. It's not a question of whether we have the users we need, but what kind of user base do we _want_, and how do we *differentiate ourselves* from the other distros.
The answer to this leads directly to the unique value we offer Novell & the developers and contributors.
Strategy isn't necessarily about growth, but about positioning in the marketplace, which (may) lead to growth.
David
Administrator wrote:
[snip] It's not a question of whether we have the users we need, but what kind of user base do we _want_, and how do we *differentiate ourselves* from the other distros.
The answer to this leads directly to the unique value we offer Novell & the developers and contributors.
I agree - that's where the strategy discussion has got to begin:
- how does/should openSUSE distinguish itself from other distros? - what is the profile of the primary target user?
How do we best go about answering those questions then?
/Per Jessen, Zürich
Le vendredi 28 mai 2010, à 18:34 +0200, Per Jessen a écrit :
I agree - that's where the strategy discussion has got to begin:
- how does/should openSUSE distinguish itself from other distros?
- what is the profile of the primary target user?
How do we best go about answering those questions then?
The strategy team will come up with a first draft for a strategy after this week-end, so I suggest we wait for this (unless some of us can propose something right now), and start from what they'll deliver.
Vincent
On Friday 28 May 2010 19:32:26 Vincent Untz wrote:
Le vendredi 28 mai 2010, à 18:34 +0200, Per Jessen a écrit :
I agree - that's where the strategy discussion has got to begin:
- how does/should openSUSE distinguish itself from other distros?
- what is the profile of the primary target user?
How do we best go about answering those questions then?
The strategy team will come up with a first draft for a strategy after this week-end, so I suggest we wait for this (unless some of us can propose something right now), and start from what they'll deliver.
Right, that's precisely what we're doing/working on this weekend. We believe that it will be a more efficient discussion if we come up with 1-n well researched proposal(s) rather than having the whole process starting from scratch on the mailing-list.
Our goal is to come up with one or more good proposals which we can then discuss all together. It isn't about imposing anything, it's really just that we believe that it is the most productive process. Another reason for not imposing it (apart from the obvious reasons why that would be bad :)) is that if we manage to come up with a strategy, it will need a maximal traction and support across the community, it's not something anyone can or would want to impose.
So, hopefully, and we're certainly working hard in order to achieve that, we'll have something to discuss, enhance, fix, patch, replace, throw away, accept very soon :)
cheers
Pascal Bleser wrote:
On Friday 28 May 2010 19:32:26 Vincent Untz wrote:
Le vendredi 28 mai 2010, à 18:34 +0200, Per Jessen a écrit :
I agree - that's where the strategy discussion has got to begin:
- how does/should openSUSE distinguish itself from other distros?
- what is the profile of the primary target user?
How do we best go about answering those questions then?
The strategy team will come up with a first draft for a strategy after this week-end, so I suggest we wait for this (unless some of us can propose something right now), and start from what they'll deliver.
Right, that's precisely what we're doing/working on this weekend. We believe that it will be a more efficient discussion if we come up with 1-n well researched proposal(s) rather than having the whole process starting from scratch on the mailing-list.
I know it's only been three days since the weekend, so this might be a little premature, but I was hoping perhaps there were one or two proposals/drafts/outlines ready for us to peruse? They need not be particularly well-researched IMHO - we don't want a fait accompli.
/Per Jessen, Zürich
On Wed, 2010-06-02 at 18:59 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:
Pascal Bleser wrote:
On Friday 28 May 2010 19:32:26 Vincent Untz wrote:
Le vendredi 28 mai 2010, à 18:34 +0200, Per Jessen a écrit :
I agree - that's where the strategy discussion has got to begin:
- how does/should openSUSE distinguish itself from other distros?
- what is the profile of the primary target user?
How do we best go about answering those questions then?
The strategy team will come up with a first draft for a strategy after this week-end, so I suggest we wait for this (unless some of us can propose something right now), and start from what they'll deliver.
Right, that's precisely what we're doing/working on this weekend. We believe that it will be a more efficient discussion if we come up with 1-n well researched proposal(s) rather than having the whole process starting from scratch on the mailing-list.
I know it's only been three days since the weekend, so this might be a little premature, but I was hoping perhaps there were one or two proposals/drafts/outlines ready for us to peruse? They need not be particularly well-researched IMHO - we don't want a fait accompli.
/Per Jessen, Zürich
We posted an update to this mailing list here at http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2010-06/msg00000.html as well as on news.opensuse.org. Please refer to it as it details where we are at and our plans to provide you with a more concrete proposal by next week.
Thanks, Bryen M Yunashko openSUSE Board Member
On Thu, 20 May 2010, Marcus Moeller wrote:
W: Novell is not seen - like Red Hat - as Open Source friend `-> this is definitely true. Maybe Novell could act as Sponsor for more oS events. But first of all, Novell should communicate their aims clearly (besides 'We support Linux, as long we are making money from it', which is what a large part of the community thinks). Besides that, recently announced Novell products like 'ZENworks Application Virtualization' are only available for Windows and there are no clear statements if there will be a Linux version available, ever (which Red Hat clearly communicated to their community/customers with their latest virtualization product RHEV, where all components will be available for Linux, too.)
Like everyone else in the industry Novell has it's own mission and vision, and supporting various platforms (including Windows) is part of that. Also not every solution equally makes sense on every platform, technically or commercially. It's not as if Novell hadn't invested a lot, and I mean a lot, of money into Linux so far. ;-)
And for a mature openSUSE project, Novell's intentions actually should not matter. This is like a lot of other projects where it's the contribution that counts, and not the reasons (business, philantropy,...) in the end.
S: decent .net support with mono (?) `-> this is only visible for a real small part of the community. Most of them does not really accept the joint-venture with M$ (which has not been communicated very well in the past) and see not benefits in Mono. We have to point out the real advantages of interoperability, here.
I do not see Mono and openSUSE linked in any specific way. If openSUSE decides it wants to leverage Mono, fine. If not, fine too. Same if you replace openSUSE by Fedora or Debian or Mandriva or FreeBSD,...
W: lots of cool features are not documented, thus not used or integrated
This has been one of our worst weaknesses and I was really happy to see how this improved nicely with some of the milestone releases.
Gerald
On Sat, 2010-05-22 at 22:13 +0200, Gerald Pfeifer wrote:
Like everyone else in the industry Novell has it's own mission and vision, and supporting various platforms (including Windows) is part of that. Also not every solution equally makes sense on every platform, technically or commercially. It's not as if Novell hadn't invested a lot, and I mean a lot, of money into Linux so far. ;-)
And for a mature openSUSE project, Novell's intentions actually should not matter. This is like a lot of other projects where it's the contribution that counts, and not the reasons (business, philantropy,... ) in the end.
This is important to point out, indeed. We may certainly be tempted to say "What more can Novell do for us?" as part of our strategy, and yes, Novell is an important contributor to openSUSE. But as we continue to offer up our thoughts here on this thread, its also important to talk about what WE as a community can do strategically for our project.
The Strategy team's focus has not been about Novell, but about the Project as a whole, which includes ALL of us. Please, everyone, do continue to offer up your great opinions which we will include in our discussions next weekend, but do also think about what we need to do as a community, and not just rely on Novell as the answer to everything.
Thanks, Bryen M Yunashko openSUSE Board Member
Søndag den 23. maj 2010 00:53:45 skrev Bryen M. Yunashko:
On Sat, 2010-05-22 at 22:13 +0200, Gerald Pfeifer wrote:
Like everyone else in the industry Novell has it's own mission and vision, and supporting various platforms (including Windows) is part of that. Also not every solution equally makes sense on every platform, technically or commercially. It's not as if Novell hadn't invested a lot, and I mean a lot, of money into Linux so far. ;-)
And for a mature openSUSE project, Novell's intentions actually should not matter. This is like a lot of other projects where it's the contribution that counts, and not the reasons (business, philantropy,... ) in the end.
This is important to point out, indeed. We may certainly be tempted to say "What more can Novell do for us?" as part of our strategy, and yes, Novell is an important contributor to openSUSE. But as we continue to offer up our thoughts here on this thread, its also important to talk about what WE as a community can do strategically for our project.
In my opinion this is (or at least should be) mainly about leadership and direction. The direction shouldn't just be randomly made up of the sum total of random contributions by random individuals as we go along. Leadership and direction and clear goals are critical to succeed in free software too.
I don't see how leadership could come from outside Novell - or at least it would be futile to try to lead the distribution in any direction that is not carefully aligned with Novell interests and man power.
On Sunday 23 May 2010 02:17:45 Martin Schlander wrote:
I don't see how leadership could come from outside Novell - or at least it would be futile to try to lead the distribution in any direction that is not carefully aligned with Novell interests and man power.
This is valid as long as openSUSE as community has no own support channel for other potential contributors.
IMO, good will without contracts is good, but it is extremely volatile; one day we can have servers for web presence and the other nothing, forcing move to new location, interruption of service etc. To have ability to sign contracts with sponsors and provide long term stability to support infrastructure we have to formalize this part of openSUSE activity, by creation of legal entity behind project.
Rajko M. wrote:
[snip] To have ability to sign contracts with sponsors and provide long term stability to support infrastructure we have to formalize this part of openSUSE activity, by creation of legal entity behind project.
From a purely practical point of view, forming a legal entity is no big
deal, it really is just a bit of paperwork. That it hasn't happened so far is only due to what Martin mentioned - direction and leadership. Please note - leadership != management.
/Per Jessen, Zürich
Le lundi 24 mai 2010, à 11:18 +0200, Per Jessen a écrit :
From a purely practical point of view, forming a legal entity is no big
deal, it really is just a bit of paperwork. That it hasn't happened so far is only due to what Martin mentioned - direction and leadership. Please note - leadership != management.
Err, the board has been investigating the creation of a legal entity for openSUSE. And various people have pushed them on this. So I would think it hasn't happened so far because they want to do it right.
(I'm not on the board, so I don't know what's the current status on this, though)
Vincent
Vincent Untz wrote:
Le lundi 24 mai 2010, à 11:18 +0200, Per Jessen a écrit :
From a purely practical point of view, forming a legal entity is no big deal, it really is just a bit of paperwork. That it hasn't happened so far is only due to what Martin mentioned - direction and leadership. Please note - leadership != management.
Err, the board has been investigating the creation of a legal entity for openSUSE. And various people have pushed them on this. So I would think it hasn't happened so far because they want to do it right.
I apologize, I didn't mean to say 'only'. Please substitute "is only due to" with "is at least partially due to".
/Per Jessen, Zürich
Martin Schlander wrote:
In my opinion this is (or at least should be) mainly about leadership and direction. The direction shouldn't just be randomly made up of the sum total of random contributions by random individuals as we go along. Leadership and direction and clear goals are critical to succeed in free software too.
+1.
I don't see how leadership could come from outside Novell - or at least it would be futile to try to lead the distribution in any direction that is not carefully aligned with Novell interests and man power.
I would certainly agree with that, despite people often trying to stress how independent openSUSE is.
/Per Jessen, Zürich
Hi,
On 05/23/2010 09:17 AM, Martin Schlander wrote:
I don't see how leadership could come from outside Novell - or at least it would be futile to try to lead the distribution in any direction that is not carefully aligned with Novell interests and man power.
Novel repeatedly stated through Ralf Flaxa and Gerald Pfeiffer (Vice Presidents), AJ and Michl (Product Managers), Klaas, Jürgen, Lars, Marcus, Holgi etc. (Engineering Managers), Adrian, Michael Schröder, Coolo, Henne (Project Managers), Joe Brockmeier (now ex-Community Managers) and a lot of other people with a @novell.com address that Novell wants the openSUSE project to go and do great things. That Novell wants the openSUSE project to be an open source project. That Novell trusts in the mechanisms of open source. That Novell, with its interests and its man power, intends to play the same role as everyone else in this project. What more do you want Novell to say about leadership?
This is our project, this is open source: leadership comes from the people who do stuff. If Novell wants to push the distribution/project into some direction it will. INSIDE this project! By discussing it and doing the work afterwards. Like it does already since quite some time. If you or anyone else wants to push the distribution/project into some other direction you do the same. There is no sanctioning needed from Novell for doing anything in this project. Hence leadership can come from everywhere INSIDE this project, you just have to take it :)
Henne
Moin, On Tuesday 25 May 2010 14:43:56 Henne Vogelsang wrote:
Hi,
On 05/23/2010 09:17 AM, Martin Schlander wrote:
I don't see how leadership could come from outside Novell - or at least it would be futile to try to lead the distribution in any direction that is not carefully aligned with Novell interests and man power.
Novel repeatedly stated through Ralf Flaxa and Gerald Pfeiffer (Vice Presidents), AJ and Michl (Product Managers), Klaas, Jürgen, Lars, Marcus, Holgi etc. (Engineering Managers), Adrian, Michael Schröder, Coolo, Henne (Project Managers), Joe Brockmeier (now ex-Community Managers) and a lot of other people with a @novell.com address that Novell wants the openSUSE project to go and do great things. That Novell wants the openSUSE project to be an open source project. That Novell trusts in the mechanisms of open source. That Novell, with its interests and its man power, intends to play the same role as everyone else in this project. What more do you want Novell to say about leadership?
This is our project, this is open source: leadership comes from the people who do stuff. If Novell wants to push the distribution/project into some direction it will. INSIDE this project! By discussing it and doing the work afterwards. Like it does already since quite some time. If you or anyone else wants to push the distribution/project into some other direction you do the same. There is no sanctioning needed from Novell for doing anything in this project. Hence leadership can come from everywhere INSIDE this project, you just have to take it :)
applause, applause, applause, M
Henne
Le 25/05/2010 14:43, Henne Vogelsang a écrit :
this project. What more do you want Novell to say about leadership?
may be when we ask "why this version is called '11.2' (or '11.3'...) not answer "this is a commercial decision we can't do nothing with"
having the board with a Novell chairman?
just examples...
(not to say I don't understand, but the lead is clearly Novell, benevolent, yes, but also Dictator!)
jdd
On Tuesday 25 May 2010 15:11:52 jdd wrote:
Le 25/05/2010 14:43, Henne Vogelsang a écrit :
this project. What more do you want Novell to say about leadership?
may be when we ask "why this version is called '11.2' (or '11.3'...) not answer "this is a commercial decision we can't do nothing with"
Some things change over time, so the answer from a couple of years ago might not be the same today.
having the board with a Novell chairman?
Novell is the main sponsor and wants some assurance. The question here is how the chairman acts and that should answer your question.
just examples...
(not to say I don't understand, but the lead is clearly Novell, benevolent, yes, but also Dictator!)
jdd
Hi, On Tuesday 25 May 2010 15:11:52 jdd wrote:
Le 25/05/2010 14:43, Henne Vogelsang a écrit :
this project. What more do you want Novell to say about leadership?
may be when we ask "why this version is called '11.2' (or '11.3'...) not answer "this is a commercial decision we can't do nothing with"
having the board with a Novell chairman?
just examples...
a few more examples: - openSUSE factory open for a year or so for non-Novell contribution - openFATE open for everybody to add and comment on features - voting in openFATE showed that Novell listens, eg openFATE #306967 - openSUSE conference program a complete joined effort - openSUSE Build Service
(not to say I don't understand, but the lead is clearly Novell, benevolent, yes, but also Dictator!)
I'm very much with henne on this. This is our project, this is open source: leadership comes from the people who do stuff.
Best M
jdd
On May 25, 10 15:11:52 +0200, jdd wrote:
Le 25/05/2010 14:43, Henne Vogelsang a écrit :
this project. What more do you want Novell to say about leadership?
may be when we ask "why this version is called '11.2' (or '11.3'...) not answer "this is a commercial decision we can't do nothing with"
Oh, did it happen that way? I never gave the numbering scheme much thought, except recently when I half jokingly suggested to drop the dot, and call it "113", just to warf the "13" that fedora has jumed to.
having the board with a Novell chairman?
As SLE* productmanagers want to rely on opensuse, it seems natural that they want to voice their opinions. Don't know if this requires a chairperson position to do so.
Question: would an openSUSE board have reason to misalign with Novell, e.g. in order to achive other goals? I'd be interested in hearing opinions on this.
just examples...
Good examples.
cheers, JW-
Juergen Weigert wrote:
Question: would an openSUSE board have reason to misalign with Novell, e.g. in order to achive other goals? I'd be interested in hearing opinions on this.
In principle why not, but in practice I think we need to know where Novell thinks openSUSE is or should be heading to form a real opinion on that.
/Per Jessen, Zürich
On Tue, 25 May 2010, jdd wrote:
this project. What more do you want Novell to say about leadership?
may be when we ask "why this version is called '11.2' (or '11.3'...) not answer "this is a commercial decision we can't do nothing with"
That's an easy one: because that's how, historically the release after the release of 11.0 has been called. ;-)
Seriously, if we (the openSUSE community) want to change how we call those openSUSE releases, why not?
I vote for using the names of fish, alphabetically: anemone fish, barracuda, clownfish, dolphin, emperor fish, filefish, guitarfish... you get the point.</tongue location="in cheek">
(Yes, there are two mistakes in the list above; submit your guesses by private mail in case you are interested.)
Gerald
On 5/25/2010 at 23:44, Gerald Pfeifer gp@novell.com wrote:
On Tue, 25 May 2010, jdd wrote:
this project. What more do you want Novell to say about leadership?
may be when we ask "why this version is called '11.2' (or '11.3'...) not answer "this is a commercial decision we can't do nothing with"
That's an easy one: because that's how, historically the release after the release of 11.0 has been called. ;-)
Seriously, if we (the openSUSE community) want to change how we call those openSUSE releases, why not?
I vote for using the names of fish, alphabetically: anemone fish, barracuda, clownfish, dolphin, emperor fish, filefish, guitarfish... you get the point.</tongue location="in cheek">
(Yes, there are two mistakes in the list above; submit your guesses by private mail in case you are interested.)
You mean, for example, that a dolphin is not a fish, but a mammal? :)
Dominique
Tirsdag den 25. maj 2010 14:43:56 skrev Henne Vogelsang:
On 05/23/2010 09:17 AM, Martin Schlander wrote:
I don't see how leadership could come from outside Novell - or at least it would be futile to try to lead the distribution in any direction that is not carefully aligned with Novell interests and man power.
Novel repeatedly stated through Ralf Flaxa and Gerald Pfeiffer (Vice Presidents), AJ and Michl (Product Managers), Klaas, Jürgen, Lars, Marcus, Holgi etc. (Engineering Managers), Adrian, Michael Schröder, Coolo, Henne (Project Managers), Joe Brockmeier (now ex-Community Managers) and a lot of other people with a @novell.com address that Novell wants the openSUSE project to go and do great things. That Novell wants the openSUSE project to be an open source project. That Novell trusts in the mechanisms of open source. That Novell, with its interests and its man power, intends to play the same role as everyone else in this project. What more do you want Novell to say about leadership?
This is our project, this is open source: leadership comes from the people who do stuff. If Novell wants to push the distribution/project into some direction it will. INSIDE this project! By discussing it and doing the work afterwards. Like it does already since quite some time. If you or anyone else wants to push the distribution/project into some other direction you do the same. There is no sanctioning needed from Novell for doing anything in this project. Hence leadership can come from everywhere INSIDE this project, you just have to take it :)
No. You're wrong ;-)
Having people working against each other, and pulling in completely opposite and random directions and then see who pulls the strongest in the end is fail, and will probably get us just about nowhere - or at least on a zigzag course.
"go and do great things" or "create the world's most usable linux" is not operational - it can mean a million different conflicting things and it says absolutely nothing about which direction openSUSE is supposed to move in, and it does nothing to guide decision making and priorities (what kind of stuff to package, what bugs to fix first etc.).
Whereas other distros have clearer, more operational goals like: * "we're all about bleeding edge and open source for geeks and enthusiasts" (fedora) * "we want to be easy enough for Grandma Tillie, no matter how much crappy python code and gpl violations it takes" (ubuntu)
Shit. To me it even seems like every Novell employee has his own little agenda that is in no way shape or form aligned with what anyone else is trying to do.
We need clear, operational and _common_ long term goals and a clear target audience, to guide decision making and priorities. But of course there should be some room to maneuver inside these goals.
On Tuesday 25 May 2010 15:12:44 Martin Schlander wrote:
[...] Having people working against each other, and pulling in completely opposite and random directions and then see who pulls the strongest in the end is fail, and will probably get us just about nowhere - or at least on a zigzag course.
"go and do great things" or "create the world's most usable linux" is not operational - it can mean a million different conflicting things and it says absolutely nothing about which direction openSUSE is supposed to move in, and it does nothing to guide decision making and priorities (what kind of stuff to package, what bugs to fix first etc.).
Whereas other distros have clearer, more operational goals like:
- "we're all about bleeding edge and open source for geeks and enthusiasts"
(fedora)
- "we want to be easy enough for Grandma Tillie, no matter how much crappy
python code and gpl violations it takes" (ubuntu)
And that's what we discuss in the Strategy meeting as well - where do we want to see openSUSE go.
Shit. To me it even seems like every Novell employee has his own little agenda that is in no way shape or form aligned with what anyone else is trying to do.
Let me say differently what Henne said: So, if you want to lead in one area and take care that we are all aligned, you have the power to do that!
We need clear, operational and _common_ long term goals and a clear target audience, to guide decision making and priorities. But of course there should be some room to maneuver inside these goals.
Leadership includes uniting everybody around a goal. And that's why people sit together in person to discuss stuff,
Andreas
Hi,
On 05/25/2010 03:12 PM, Martin Schlander wrote:
Tirsdag den 25. maj 2010 14:43:56 skrev Henne Vogelsang:
On 05/23/2010 09:17 AM, Martin Schlander wrote:
I don't see how leadership could come from outside Novell - or at least it would be futile to try to lead the distribution in any direction that is not carefully aligned with Novell interests and man power.
This is our project, this is open source: leadership comes from the people who do stuff. If Novell wants to push the distribution/project into some direction it will. INSIDE this project! By discussing it and doing the work afterwards. Like it does already since quite some time. If you or anyone else wants to push the distribution/project into some other direction you do the same. There is no sanctioning needed from Novell for doing anything in this project. Hence leadership can come from everywhere INSIDE this project, you just have to take it :)
No. You're wrong ;-)
Having people working against each other, and pulling in completely opposite and random directions and then see who pulls the strongest in the end is fail, and will probably get us just about nowhere - or at least on a zigzag course.
Right. Thats why people talk and work with each other to come to a solution. Thats why people step up and take leadership in certain areas by pushing them forward. Thats why people candidate for the openSUSE Election or Membership Officials. Thats why people run for a seat in the openSUSE Board. Thats why we have a project. This project has nothing to do with Novell leading (mandating) anything.
"go and do great things" or "create the world's most usable linux" is not operational
[...]
We need clear, operational and _common_ long term goals and a clear target audience, to guide decision making and priorities. But of course there should be some room to maneuver inside these goals.
Thats why the openSUSE Strategy team is doing this. And because Novell is interested in such a strategy "it" (Michl, AJ, Pavol, Kurt, Jan) participates in this effort. Do you see my point?
Henne
Tirsdag den 25. maj 2010 15:43:21 skrev Henne Vogelsang:
On 05/25/2010 03:12 PM, Martin Schlander wrote:
We need clear, operational and _common_ long term goals and a clear target audience, to guide decision making and priorities. But of course there should be some room to maneuver inside these goals.
Thats why the openSUSE Strategy team is doing this. And because Novell is interested in such a strategy "it" (Michl, AJ, Pavol, Kurt, Jan) participates in this effort.
And noone is more happy about that than me :-)
Because as I said earlier, I don't see how this could make sense, if whatever is decided is not shared wholeheartedly and with commitment by the biggest single openSUSE contributor by far - which is Novell (if we pretend for a minute that Novell is a single entity)
While someone was trying to state that Novell doesn't have any special role to play in setting the direction, compared to some random individual volunteering a few hours of spare time.
Le 25/05/2010 16:28, Martin Schlander a écrit :
While someone was trying to state that Novell doesn't have any special role to play in setting the direction, compared to some random individual volunteering a few hours of spare time.
well, If i read between the lines (and why do I have to do so?), it looks like Novell could give some more freedom.
If it's not only an idea, but a fact, may be we could on the beginning give the board some more power to dcide?
After all, the board is who have been elected (even if not exactly to this goal).
Say...
Let the board decide what will be the name of next distro (should be 12.0?) - after large discussion and voting through members and ambassadors.
I think *this* could be a real symbol (and for no cost, the name is that, a symbol, not anything who have a cost)
jdd
Am Dienstag 25 Mai 2010 17:14:06 schrieb jdd:
Le 25/05/2010 16:28, Martin Schlander a écrit :
While someone was trying to state that Novell doesn't have any special role to play in setting the direction, compared to some random individual volunteering a few hours of spare time.
well, If i read between the lines (and why do I have to do so?), it looks like Novell could give some more freedom.
Have you read the thread up to here? Or do I get you wrong here? Why are you reading something out between the lines when there is a clear and all-embracing statement from Henne?
If it's not only an idea, but a fact, may be we could on the beginning give the board some more power to dcide?
We could, but we conciously decided against when we discussed the Guiding Principles of the project a few years ago. We were of the opinion that the openSUSE community is (or will be) self consistent enough to come up with a large amount of self regulation, decision taking, discussion will and tolerance to be able to be a real community and drive the project together. We did not want a project of followers who elect a board and do what they decide. Actually I am not sure if there are free software projects run that way. At least to me they weren't interesting actually ;-)
After all, the board is who have been elected (even if not exactly to this goal).
Right, not to this goal. Our board has another purpose which can be read in the Guiding Principles. They can moderate, inspire, kick off discussions etc. in the communty if people see a need. And, as a result, this weekend we have the strategy discussion here :-)
Say...
Let the board decide what will be the name of next distro (should be 12.0?) - after large discussion and voting through members and ambassadors.
Why the board? If you feel like renaming the distro, well, go ahead and say that on @project. See how people react and try to convince the community. Come up with good arguments, with humor, charme and what not, that is the way you convince people. Finally that will lead to a decision. That is open to everyone, not only the board guys. Note that we want and need the creativity of everybody, not only of the board.
IMO...
Klaas
Le 26/05/2010 10:58, Klaas Freitag a écrit :
Why the board?
Please, at a moment somebody have to say "stop, we have a result". *I* am the leader of the Linux Documentation Project and *I* decide, what only means that nobody was candidate for the task, so I had to go, and the handful people that make the LDP work accept me as referee. No more, no less.
What referee can we have now if not the board? of course we have to discuss this extensively, but just today it can be accepted :-)
And this have little to do with the guiding principles. We don't need an other dictator :-), only a referee
jdd
On Wednesday 26 May 2010 11:24:20 jdd wrote:
And this have little to do with the guiding principles. We don't need an other dictator :-), only a referee
With current "job" description Board is referee, so it seems that you talk about the same thing.
-
Administrator -
Andreas Jaeger -
Bryen M. Yunashko -
C -
Carlos Ribeiro -
Dominique Leuenberger -
Gerald Pfeifer -
Greg Freemyer -
Henne Vogelsang -
jdd -
Juergen Weigert -
Karsten König -
Klaas Freitag -
Marcus Moeller -
Martin Schlander -
Michael Loeffler -
Pascal Bleser -
Per Jessen -
Rajko M. -
Satoru Matsumoto -
Shayon Mukherjee -
Vincent Untz