On Wed, 26 Jan 2011 17:04:53 +0200 Kostas Koudaras &lt;warlordfff-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w(a)public.gmane.org&gt; wrote: <snip> Hi Yes, perhaps some examples of actual sites/links/whatever that are potential problems to require a change to the status quo. -- Cheers Malcolm °¿° (Linux Counter #276890) SUSE Linux Enterprise Desktop 11 (x86_64) Kernel 2.6.32.27-0.2-default up 8 days 2:22, 6 users, load average: 0.01, 0.04, 0.00 GPU GeForce 8600 GTS Silent - Driver Version: 260.19.36 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

Jim Henderson wrote: Thanks for your comments, Malcolm and Jim. As I explained in another post, most of the articles which OWN introduce now are *not clearly permitted* to reprint, republish and modify. In particular, on most of the corporations' site, they state "All rights reserved." Although I'm not an expert in this area either, as far as I understand, we can't *reprint* articles without permissions by copyright owners. I can agree, that 99.99% we won't be charged with violation of copyright, because most of the authors want their works to be read by as many readers as possible. But this doesn't mean we are legitimate. On the other hand, most of the copyright laws contain special exemptions, which says, *appropriate* citations are permitted without copyright owners consent. But what are considered the *legitimate* and *appropriate* citations depends on which country's copyright law and guidelines we should refer to. Best, -- _/_/ Satoru Matsumoto - openSUSE Member - Japan _/_/ _/_/ Marketing/Weekly News/openFATE Screening Team _/_/ _/_/ mail: helios_reds_at_gmx.net / irc: HeliosReds _/_/ _/_/ http://blog.zaq.ne.jp/opensuse/ _/_/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

Hello Kostas, Kostas Koudaras &lt;warlordfff(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote at Thursday 27 January 2011: I'm not an Expert too ;-) But if i understand this right, then if you create a new Document on your Page, you are the Copyright Holder. And you can set (c) 2011 by XXX. With setting CC or any other to your Page you give others a permission to use your Work. A small HowTo for Wordpress and Blogger is given there as Example: http://wiki.creativecommons.org/Publish/Text#Blog -- Sincerely yours Sascha Manns open-slx GmbH openSUSE Community & Support Agent openSUSE Marketing Team Blog: http://saigkill.wordpress.com Web: http://www.saschamanns.de Web: http://www.open-slx.de (openSUSE Box Support German) Web: http://www.open-slx.com (openSUSE Box Support English) Open-SLX : Linux convenient, simple, secure and complete -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

On Sat, 29 Jan 2011 20:26:07 -0000 "Administrator" &lt;admin-JJaFKVBkT/BLBidhBXjKY5m6VD3zJD3B0E9HWUfgJXw(a)public.gmane.org&gt; wrote: Hi Maybe David C. Rankin or Martin Seidler can offer some free advice.... -- Cheers Malcolm °¿° (Linux Counter #276890) SUSE Linux Enterprise Desktop 11 (x86_64) Kernel 2.6.32.27-0.2-default up 11 days 6:17, 2 users, load average: 0.03, 0.03, 0.00 GPU GeForce 8600 GTS Silent - Driver Version: 260.19.36 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

On Sat, 29 Jan 2011 22:47:14 +0100 "Sascha 'saigkill' Manns" &lt;samannsml-bGfVpndWla9DPfheJLI6IQ(a)public.gmane.org&gt; wrote: Hi I've pinged Martin to read and comment, hopefully he will ;) -- Cheers Malcolm °¿° (Linux Counter #276890) SUSE Linux Enterprise Desktop 11 (x86_64) Kernel 2.6.32.27-0.2-default up 11 days 7:26, 3 users, load average: 0.00, 0.05, 0.18 GPU GeForce 8600 GTS Silent - Driver Version: 260.19.36 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

On Thu, 27 Jan 2011 16:17:59 +0900, Satoru Matsumoto wrote: I see, I had understood you to be asking about the copyrights on OWN's articles, not on the articles being used in OWN. I should caveat that I'm not a lawyer, It might be worthwhile to discuss this with someone with actual legal background in international copyright issues than to discuss within the community. It probably depends on whether OWN reproduces articles in their entirety or uses a short excerpt and then a link to the original article. Another option would be simply to ask each author for permission before publication in OWN. If you receive express written permission to include a specific third party article in OWN, then you should be in the clear. You might also be able to get blanket permission to use articles from specific sites. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

Am 27/01/11 18:24, schrieb Jim Henderson: Maybe you could just friendly ask the orignial authors and publishing companies what they think of the creative commons licenses[1] and of you citing practice? Or are you afraid of waking sleeping lions? Regards pistazienfresser [1] in what form ever - for special language forms of the News there might be the 'national' forms of CC the best - not only translated but also adapted to the different jurisdictions. -- - openSUSE 11.2 with GNOME 2.28.2 (or KDE 4.3.5) and Kernel Linux 2.6.31.14-0.1-desktop (or ~pae, ~default, Ubuntu 10.4 LTS 'lucid' 2.6.33-24-genetic, MS Win XP) - Samsung X20 Pentium M 740 (1730 MHz) Intel 915GM 1400x1050 - openSUSE profile: https://users.opensuse.org/show/pistazienfresser -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

Hello Kostas Kostas Koudaras &lt;warlordfff(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote at Wednesday 26 January 2011: From my POV all Sites who are outside *.opensuse.org are external. What helps is, if the Blogger license their work as CC. Then we can handle the Article better. So if you are an Blogger without an CC (or another free license) please put it on your Blogsite. Ideas you can get in http://saigkill.wordpress.com -- Sincerely yours Sascha Manns open-slx GmbH openSUSE Community & Support Agent openSUSE Marketing Team Blog: http://saigkill.wordpress.com Web: http://www.saschamanns.de Web: http://www.open-slx.de (openSUSE Box Support German) Web: http://www.open-slx.com (openSUSE Box Support English) Open-SLX : Linux convenient, simple, secure and complete -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

Sascha 'saigkill' Manns wrote: To make things understandable, I'm going to categorize articles which we have in OWN now. # [copyright owner / license] One of the important thing here is, that copyright and license are not the same thing. Only the copyright owner can decide which license to apply for its works. 1. Internal articles 1.1. Articles on wiki.opensuse.org (including $LANG.o.o) [Novell, Inc. / GFDL 1.2] 1.2. Articles on *.opensuse.org (including {news,lizards,lists}.o.o) [Novell, Inc. / undefined (*1)] 2. External articles 2.1. Personal blogs 2.1.1. Blogs which are aggregated on planet.o.o (except 1.2) [each author (*2) / various (*3)] 2.1.2. Blogs other than 2.1.1 [each author / various (*3)] 2.2. Articles on organozations' sites 2.2.1. Articles on FLOSS organizations or communities' sites (Linux.com, kde.org, TDF, ...) [each organization or community / various] 2.2.2. Articles on corporations' site (linux-magazine.com, h-online.com, ...) [each corporation / various (*4)] *1 It is just mentioned "All rights reserved." *2 There's a description on the foot of planet.o.o: "© 2010 Pascal Bleser and the openSUSE Community.", though. *3 Often not defined clearly. *4 In most cases, "All rights reserved." You can see, most of the articles are *not clearly permitted* to reprint, republish and modify. We don't have any right to change the licenses of articles on external sites. But how about those on internal sites? That's why I wrote in the top post: In addtion, if we can apply CC BY-SA license for the articles which are aggregated on planet.o.o (2.1.1 in above list), the situation would be much better. Is there any good way to get those authors' consent? # This is the reason why I asked in the top post: "Do we need # Contributor License Agreement?" Best, -- _/_/ Satoru Matsumoto - openSUSE Member - Japan _/_/ _/_/ Marketing/Weekly News/openFATE Screening Team _/_/ _/_/ mail: helios_reds_at_gmx.net / irc: HeliosReds _/_/ _/_/ http://blog.zaq.ne.jp/opensuse/ _/_/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

Am 27/01/11 06:57, schrieb Satoru Matsumoto: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/deed.en "Attribution — You must attribute the work in the manner specified by the author or licensor (but not in any way that suggests that they endorse you or your use of the work). " So you likely have to name the original authors, too (or maybe at least link to the history) - if the wiki would use CC. In my (not payed or covered by an insurance..) opinion it would be great if the wiki pages would be licensed with a CC license. But the issue of switching to an other license is not an easy doing - if you are very cautious you have to assure that all the original authors are agreeing to that change. Regards pistazienfresser -- - openSUSE profile: https://users.opensuse.org/show/pistazienfresser -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

Hello Satoru, hello mates, Satoru Matsumoto &lt;helios_reds(a)gmx.net&gt; wrote at Thursday 27 January 2011: I've found it there: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Comparison_of_GFDL_and_CC-BY-SA That i don't know exactly. But i think, that the Link on the bottom of the Page isn't enough. I've added Juergen Weigert to this Post. Maybe he can say more... -- Sincerely yours Sascha Manns open-slx GmbH openSUSE Community & Support Agent openSUSE Marketing Team Blog: http://saigkill.wordpress.com Web: http://www.saschamanns.de Web: http://www.open-slx.de (openSUSE Box Support German) Web: http://www.open-slx.com (openSUSE Box Support English) Open-SLX : Linux convenient, simple, secure and complete -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

Yesterday, this topic was discussed in -project meeting. http://community.opensuse.org/meetings/opensuse-project/2011/opensuse-proje… I appreciate you, meeting participant, discussing this topic and I'm sorry I couldn't join the meeting. Satoru Matsumoto wrote: Sorry if I have confused you. The 2 major issues which I want to clarify in this thread are: 1. License of the contents on *.opensuse.org sites 2. Which country's copyright law and guidelines should we refer to, when we want to draw contents from external sites for OWN? =================================================================== 1. License of the contents on *.opensuse.org sites ATM, the contents on Wiki (en.o.o and other $LANG.o.o) are published under GFDL 1.2 'unless expressly indicated otherwise'. However, the license for contents on other *.opensuse.org isn't defined (we can only see the description '© 2010 Novell, Inc. All rights reserved.' in footer area on most of the *.opensuse.org sites). If I understand correctly, when someone wants to *re-use* the contents on those sites, she has to ask permission from Novell. And only the copyright owner (in this case, Novell) can decide which license to be applied. This situation makes things complex. We can re-use and modify contents on en.o.o according to the GFDL license. That's why we can translate the contents on en.o.o and put the translations on $LANG.o.o. The original articles on en.o.o are published under GFDL and the translations of those articles will be also published on $LANG.o.o under GFDL license - there's no problem at all. But how about articles from news.o.o, lizards.o.o and lists.o.o? Can we re-use and translate them without permission of Novell? In addition, when we translate them for OWN Japanese edition and put them on ja.o.o (just for example ;-) ), do we need to 'expressly indicate the license for them otherwise'? (If we don't do so, all the contents on ja.o.o will be automatically considered to be published under GFDL license.) I believe all the announcements from our project should be reached to as many people as possible regardless of whether the readers are good at reading English or not. And most of the authors of lizards.o.o also might hope their blog posts will be read by as many readers as possible. That's one of the biggest reasons why I translate OWN every week. The current situation - license of the contents on *.opensuse.org aren't defined - isn't good for me (and for those who want to translate OWN), at least. 2. Which country's copyright law and guidelines should we refer to, when we want to draw contents from external sites for OWN? If the license issue above will be clarified, the situation will be better than now. But still, there are other problems. ATM, we are introducing articles from external sites (personal blogs and sites by organizations) in OWN. I know, basically we need to ask permissions from copyright owners of those articles each time we want to draw them for OWN, unless they are published under the licenses such as GFDL or CC BY-SA. But that will become strained for us OWN team. However, most of the copyright laws contain exemptions, which allow us to draw (quote) others works legitimately under certain conditions. What are considered to 'legitimate citations' depends on each law and guideline. So the question here is: which country's copyright law and guidelines should we refer to, when we want to draw contents from external sites for OWN? * The authors of original articles live in various countries. * The external sites are hosted in various countries. * (ATM,)we are using berlios.de for editing OWN. * OWN is published primarily on news.o.o. * PDF and Wiki versions of OWN are put on en.o.o. * Translated OWN are published on $LANG.o.o. * Greek editions are also published on http://own.opensuse.gr/ , which is run by Greek community (?) [1]. * Infrastructures for openSUSE project are owned and run by Novell, which exists in USA. * Editors of OWN live in various countries. * The current editor in chief (Sascha) lives in Germany. * Translators of OWN live in various countries (ATM, only ja and gr are active so that most of them live in Japan or Greece). Now you might understand why this issue is so complex. Which country's copyright law and guidelines should we refer to, when we want to draw contents from external sites for OWN, in case ...: a. we publish English version of OWN on news.o.o ? A. we should refer to the law and guideline of each original author or copyright owner. B. we should refer to the law and guideline of USA, because infrastructure of news.o.o is owned by Novell. C. we should refer to the law and guideline of Germany, because editor in chief lives in Germany. b. we publish $LANG version of OWN on $LANG.o.o ? (to make things simple, let's imagine ja here) A. we should refer to the law and guideline of each original author or copyright owner. B. we should refer to the law and guideline of USA, because infrastructure of $LANG.o.o is owned by Novell. C. we should refer to the law and guideline of Japan, because all the translators and most of the readers live in Japan. c. we publish Greek version of OWN on own.opensuse.gr ? A. we should refer to the law and guideline of each original author or copyright owner. B. we should refer to the law and guideline of USA, because the original OWN which are the base of Greek translations are on news.o.o. C. we should refer to the law and guideline of Greece, because the site for publishing Greek version is run by Greek organization and all the translators and most of the readers live in Greece. If the answer for every situation would be A, we have to give up drawing contents from external sites because it is almost impossible to refer to laws and guidelines of all over the world or ask permissions from copyright owners each time. :-( But if the answers would be B or C, we just need to refer to the corresponding laws and guidelines. That will make our work much more compliant. [1] This is yet another topic, though. When I search the registrar of opensuse.gr at https://grweb.ics.forth.gr/Whois?lang=en , I could see 'Registrar Referral URL:http://www.papaki.gr'. So, the domain opensuse.gr doesn't seem to be owned by Novell. But according to our trademark guidelines: 'If you want to include all or part of an openSUSE Mark in a domain name, you should seek our permission (see "Contact Information" below to request permission). (...) By "domain name" we mean to refer to toplevel domains and second-level domains, but not sub-domains.' http://en.opensuse.org/OpenSUSE_Trademark_Guidelines#Domain_Names I have a little concern, whether Greek community is permitted to use this domain name by Novell or not. If not yet, I recommend you to ask permission from Novell. ;-) Best, -- _/_/ Satoru Matsumoto - openSUSE Member - Japan _/_/ _/_/ Marketing/Weekly News/openFATE Screening Team _/_/ _/_/ mail: helios_reds_at_gmx.net / irc: HeliosReds _/_/ _/_/ http://blog.zaq.ne.jp/opensuse/ _/_/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

Hi Satoru, Satoru Matsumoto &lt;helios_reds(a)gmx.net&gt; wrote at Thursday 10 February 2011: This cituation is a little bit different. The english OWN is for the whole Community. The german Newsletter who i'm hosting by open-slx is called "openSUSE Wochenrückblick" and is a Product of open-slx for Endusers. Because we just using the Link and comment it in own words, the whole Newsletter is owned by the Newsteam of open-slx. That's why we changed to CC-BY-SA. -- Sincerely Yours Sascha Manns open-slx Community & Support Agent openSUSE Membership Comitee openSUSE Marketing Team Blog: http://saigkill.wordpress.com German Community Portal: http://community.open-slx.de -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

On Thursday, February 10, 2011 10:44:01 Satoru Matsumoto wrote: It is entirely Sascha's prerogative, anyway. Two things are important here: - trademark, is Sascha allowed to publish an "openSUSE Wochenrückblick"? This assumes that there is clarity how to use the trademark, and then if he does use the openSUSE trademark correctly. Now my understanding is that the trademark situation is being sorted out, but that there is no clear trademark policy yet. As Sascha does indeed refer to openSUSE as product and community, and doesn't use the name for anything else, that's completely fine for all I know about trademark law. - copyright, does Sascha have the right to publish content. As you say, it's originary content, written by himself. He owns the copyright, he decides what to do about this, and who publishes it. (Note that he put it under a very friendly license, so the content is actually easily reusable for others. Now Sascha decides to contribute to both, the englisch openSUSE newsletter, and a German one, for another medium. In my books, there's nothing wrong with it, the fact that Sascha does, and has been doing important work for the openSUSE newsletter does not automatically mandate that he has to do the exact same for other projects he works on. In fact, I think this exclusive attitide is very dangerous, because it has this distinct all-or-nothing feeling to it. Let me share my personal view on this, though. If Sascha decides to move part of the content to another site, you can do 2 things: 1) try to get him to roll back 2) try to understand why he made this decision The first option might sound appealing, and like the logical thing to do, the second one is the one that gives you a handle how things need to be improved. I've been trying to get more involved with the openSUSE community lately, but one of the biggest barriers I encountered was a lack of "getting things done" mentality. It seems as though for many things one wants to do with openSUSE, many people want to be involved. The problem is that many of those are merely claiming that they should be involved to be able to participate in discussions. It smells a bit like "if someone does something, I want to tell her why". This very much kills any sense of creating something exciting. I think this attitude of gatekeeping is even at the very heard why openSUSE is lacking direction, and nobody seems to be able to do anything about it. The more this gatekeeper attitude is exercised, the more people are being pushed away. Ironically, this way of acting supports the very same attitude people are complaining about. The overhead of having to discuss anything with anybody is so high, that it will eventually kill any spark of new ideas. So if you want these to survive, I'd recommend only talking to people that are a) willing to chip in b) ignore those that tell them "my way or the highway" It's sad to say, but the amount of stop energy when doing something differently or new does a lot of harm to the project, the result is: 1) people with ideas are driven away 2) people with new ideas aren't attracted to begin with 3) many cool things simply do not happen ...and then you end up with the status quo. -- sebas http://www.kde.org | http://vizZzion.org | GPG Key ID: 9119 0EF9 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

Hey, On 02/10/2011 12:54 PM, Sebastian Kügler wrote: Sure, as its the right of everybody else to object how Sascha does it :) There are trademark guidelines in effect now. You can read them at http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Trademark_guidelines [...] And everybody agrees with that in general. However this isn't the issue everybody has with this move. People tell you that they don't like Sascha or anyone else to push things into open-slx.de infrastructure and away from opensuse.org infrastructure. You never once address this specific concern in any way, you simply ignore it. Until you somehow address this issue either with talking about it or doing something about it, you will continue to receive criticisms. Henne -- Henne Vogelsang, openSUSE. Everybody has a plan, until they get hit. - Mike Tyson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

Hi, On 02/10/2011 03:46 PM, Sebastian Kügler wrote: Okay so why does Sascha never raise what he needs to have to do the "openSUSE Wochenrückblick" on de.opensuse.org or some other place? Henne -- Henne Vogelsang, openSUSE. Everybody has a plan, until they get hit. - Mike Tyson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

Hey, On 02/10/2011 04:50 PM, Sascha Manns wrote: Please enlighten everybody and tell us why. Talk to us, work with us, as a team. I contributed to the wiki portion of the Weekly News didn't I? I also contributed to the German wiki. I helped you countless times with a lot of issues. I also helped Linuxsusefan. If nothing else you owe me an explanation _why_ you pull out. Really, we're friends aren't we? Henne -- Henne Vogelsang, openSUSE. Everybody has a plan, until they get hit. - Mike Tyson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

Le 10/02/2011 19:56, Sascha Manns a écrit : not only that ATM there was also a French full support (good old times :-) you can't say that. at the time Novell buy SuSE, Internet become popular and most people exchange with internet in english. I'm completely unable to read german (and sometime ago I desparately tried without success :-(), but a SuSE upporter since 1997!! your comments didn't make any thing clearer. Why couldn't you use the openSUSE infrastructure? you speak of Novell, but I guess most openSUSE servers are in Nuremberg :-) it's not a matter of *forcing* anybody to anything; simply it's better to have all under the same cover, when possible. I just looked at open-slx, it's only advertised as a commercial suse vendor. You should revise your main page :-) http://open-slx.org/doku.php by the way I don't remember somebody asking the community to let open-slx sell the box (not that it be a problem for me) i'm feeling good there. I'm this is a very good reason, let the other alone :-)) still I beg we would like to know why you quit, what did we do bad that you didn't feel right here (or may be I didn't understand the problem) keep cool :-) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xgxog7_clip-l-ombre-et-la-lumiere-3-bad-pi… http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGgv_ZFtV14 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

Hey, On 02/10/2011 07:56 PM, Sascha Manns wrote: Sascha, I am not angry. I want to understand why you do the things you do. And for my understanding I asked you a straight forward question and I "demand" a straight answer from you. I don't want a market analysis of the German openSUSE market. We can talk and do something about this _together_ somewhere else. I want to know one thing. You can do all the great things you do, for all the very well thought out reasons you have, inside the openSUSE project, on openSUSE infrastructure with openSUSE branding. Why don't you? Henne -- Henne Vogelsang, openSUSE. Everybody has a plan, until they get hit. - Mike Tyson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

On Fri, 11 Feb 2011 19:42:17 +0100, Sascha Manns wrote: Where any individual blogs isn't the question, Sascha - that's very different from creating an entire portal that in effect chops up the community into smaller pieces, duplicates efforts, and adds complexity where it doesn't necessarily need to be. I have some concerns about this myself - and I know Rupert knows my concerns because I've talked about him in the context of the open-slx community portal's forums that are being set up. As a member of staff in the openSUSE forums, I've been concerned about this duplication of efforts - for example, in OSF, we provide a German set of forums. There's also other German forums (linuxclub.de is one I know about), so I have to seriously wonder what benefit there is to creating yet another German set of forums on the open-slx portal. Doing so divides the expertise and makes it more difficult for people looking for help to decide where to go. That would seem to me (from my vantage point) to create unnecessary complexity and further divide a community we should ALL be working to unite rather than to further fragment. Reducing duplication was one of the drivers (as I understand it) behind merging several different sets of forums that provided assistance to users using openSUSE. Looking at the Fedora community or the Ubuntu community, for example, they each seem to have a single set of forums, which provides them both with a higher degree of community cohesion. I don't think I've ever seen anyone ask the question "which forums should I go to if I have questions about [Ubuntu|Fedora]?" (This doesn't mean there aren't third-party forums, but I have never, ever seen a reference to a post in a third- party Ubuntu forum, for example) But I could certainly see that happening here if the community doesn't come together to provide that (ideally) single place to go for information and interaction. open-slx has done some great things for the openSUSE project, but like Henne, I have a really hard time understanding why all this duplicate effort is taking place rather than leveraging the existing infrastructure as much as possible, and answering that question with "why don't you blog on lizards.opensuse.org?" doesn't really address the underlying issue or concern. It is, as Henne said, a pretty straightforward question, and either the answer is straightforward or it isn't. If the answer isn't straightforward, then I would ask that rather than answering the question with another question, you just say "it isn't that simple" - or better yet - trust that we can discuss the issue in an intelligent way (and don't worry about the complexity, after all, the project members and board deal with a high degree of complexity in a lot of different ways) and come to a resolution that everyone benefits from. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

Le samedi 12 février 2011, à 01:21 +0100, Sascha Manns a écrit : Quoting http://en.opensuse.org/Legal: "With the exception of Software, all content on this website is made available under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License version 1.2 ("GFDL") unless expressly otherwise indicated." Let me stress out the last part: "unless expressly otherwise indicated". It means you can use a CC license if you expressly indicate it. I don't think you give your rights to Novell -- if it's true, then we need to fix it. But the legal page explicitly states: "Under these Terms Novell does not claim ownership of content or Software you submit or make available for inclusion on this website." And as mentioned above, you can choose the license that works best for you. Is there any other concern you have with hosting the german newsletter on the openSUSE infrastructure? Thanks, Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

On Sat, 12 Feb 2011 01:56:21 +0100, Sascha Manns wrote: The infrastructure you're using is important. The open-slx Platform divides the community by providing multiple places for German users to go to access information. I mentioned with the forums, there's German forums on OSF, there's linuxclub.de - so how does adding yet another set of German forums benefit the German community? How does adding another German portal (let's not forget that there are already German resources on opensuse.org as well) with a separate wiki, communications infrastructure, etc, etc, etc help *unify* the German community? Nobody's debating that addressing the needs of the German community is important. The question, ultimately, is does it make sense to address the needs of the German community through multiple venues? Sure, but that's a side issue to this. Let's talk about what open-slx has control over, since that's the current issue. It doesn't help the issue by saying "well, someone else is doing their own thing as well", and then use that as justification. You raise some new and relevant questions in bringing up Packman, but of course that's a different discussion and not even related to what we're talking about with the German community being split up further than it already is. It's not really a valid defense (not that I want you to feel you have to be "on defense" here) to, in response to a question about "what benefit is it to further segment the German community" by saying "it already is". Further division isn't a *good* thing, and pointing to the fact that it already is divided really isn't valid justification for *further* dividing the community. Does that make sense? I would ask that you please stop trying to divert those questions and just focus on the topic at hand. Doing that makes it difficult to have a discussion about the open-slx piece of the puzzle. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

Hi Sascha and mates, Sascha Manns wrote: I have wanted to talk about the role of translations of OWN in another thread on -marketing list. http://lists.opensuse.org/archive/opensuse-marketing/2011-01/msg00276.html But unfortunately, only few were involved in that discussion. I think the most important role of translation of OWN is to inform openSUSE-related important information which everyone should know to those who are not good at reading English. For that purpose, we can always say "it's better than nothing". In this case, just focusing how German OWN should be, I also have to say "it's better than nothing". It's easy to say "you should publish German OWN on current openSUSE infrastructure". But if someone tells (or ask) Sascha to do so, (s)he should be responsible to help to do so at the same time. If no one except Sascha step forward to translate OWN into German, only Sascha can decide which way is the best. Just saying "although I won't do, you should do!" won't motivate others. But still, I really wish Sascha (and other open-slx guys) will choose the way where WE can collaborate ALL TOGETHER, instead of the way of open-slx's own. When you say 'We', I hope that means 'you and me, including open-slx guys, other openSUSE community guys and all the people who loves our Geeko' rather than 'just me and other open-slx guys' - that's my honest wish. ;-) Best, -- _/_/ Satoru Matsumoto - openSUSE Member - Japan _/_/ _/_/ Marketing/Weekly News/openFATE Screening Team _/_/ _/_/ mail: helios_reds_at_gmx.net / irc: HeliosReds _/_/ _/_/ http://blog.zaq.ne.jp/opensuse/ _/_/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

On Sat, 12 Feb 2011 01:21:15 +0100, Sascha Manns wrote: But part of this discussion (and the root of it from what I've read) is about the opensuse.org site licensing under CC rather than GFDL - and I'd agree with Vincent, that if there is a "requirement" to give up your rights to content you create (rather than content you consume for redistribution, which again, was my read of what this issue was all about), then that's something that should be addressed in and of itself. So to clarify, are you not asking those who contribute to the opensuse.org site to give up their preferred license to be included in your edition of OWN? How is that different? I raise the point because the issue you raise is part of a bigger issue, which is why a separate platform that divides the community rather than working with the community and existing infrastructure? I don't claim to fully understand the issues or even the outcome of my own discussions with Rupert (because that is, I think, an ongoing discussion). It seems it would be in both the openSUSE project's best interests and in open-slx's best interests to work to unify the community. There is a difference between Henne writing a personal blog and the distribution of your newsletter (as I see it) consumes content from opensuse.org sources. Henne's blog, OTOH, is his own thoughts on things. That (again in my view) is something entirely different from what you're doing with OWN. OWN is a representation of something official from the community (an aggregation of relevant news). Henne's blog (as far as I know) isn't positioned as such so the two aren't easily equatable. There's a world of difference between someone's personal blog (which the link you provided to all appearances seems to me to be) and a newsletter that is focused on openSUSE exclusively. So let's make sure we're not drawing false equivalencies here in order to support a point or an idea. I also have to disagree that no more discussion about the open-slx platform is needed - I honestly think this is a serious issue that shouldn't be just swept under the rug. Community cohesion is important to the project (or should be), and if the community fragments, then the reasons for that fragmentation MUST be understood and - if possible - be addressed. To my view, saying "no more discussion of this point is needed" is effectively trying to sweep the discussion under the rug, regardless of the consequences to the community as a whole. The way you're coming across to me here is that you're unconcerned with community fragmentation, and that does concern me as a member of the project and as a user of openSUSE. We're all here with the same goal in mind: to advance openSUSE. Let's not work at cross-purposes, and make sure we're all working together to achieve that goal. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

On 2011-02-11 Stephan wrote: Rupert and open-SLX is quite absent, usually, but if you catch them the answer usually is that they had disagreements with others while trying to change things and they decided things would go smoother on their own. I was not involved in any of those earlier discussions but it is obviously possible that there were too many nay-sayers and too few who actually did something. It is not unprecedented in FOSS nor openSUSE. It is however sad that lately all willingness to cooperate or even talk seems to have disappeared.

On Fri, 11 Feb 2011 18:37:30 -0600, Bryen M. Yunashko wrote: Exactly what I'm thinking. But I also think it doesn't hurt for either side of this conversation to let the discussion devolve into a discussion of "he said/she said" with regards to past events. Let's identify that there's an issue and work towards a compromise that everyone benefits from and that moves towards unification of the community rather than further fragmentation. That means it's important to put all the issues on the table. What are both groups' concerns about what's currently in place at this moment? How can we bridge the differences and make for a *stronger* community? That would be a good starting point, certainly. Some general comments, not directed at anyone in particular: I think it's important that the organizations involved be clear about their goals, and if there are compromises to be made on either side, that those compromises be made in a spirit of doing what's best for the community. I think that starts with a default assumption that what everyone wants to do is what they think is best for the community as a whole. It's easy to think of "that other group" as "adversaries", but an adversarial approach isn't going to move us forward. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

On 2011-02-11 Bryen wrote: Amen.

On 2011-02-10 Henne wrote: I have to agree with Henne here. The earlier discussion about the new portal as well as this thing have simply been done without discussion - just a notification that you were going to do it. I'm pretty sure you, sebas, would agree with me that that is not the right way to do it. If you do something new, that's cool. If you do it in complete isolation, dumping it on a community, knowing that it duplicates work they are doing and even goes against something they've been trying to do (unifying everything under one domain and look & feel etc) - stupid. I agree that there is too much slowing-down sometimes, but really, it has to come from both sides. openSLX has to realize that they have to work with the existing community and with the openSUSE Board as extension to that. And to make it clear, I'm also talking from Novell's perspective here. If the community is unhappy with openSLX, so is Novell.

Hey Vincent, On Thursday, February 10, 2011 18:29:19 Vincent Untz wrote: That's really up to Sascha and those who actively contribute to the German news letter. It's not a decision from open-slx, but the German newsletter's team where they prefer to have it hosted. I'm personally fine with both ways, but would much rather see an active newsletter than endless discussions about how things are going (which this thread is quickly turning into :/), therefore I do think it's a good idea to try it under a different umbrella. It might just work out really well, with contributors being more happy. =) The duplication of services has been pointed out earlier, and it probably stems from looking at for example the end-user portal merely from a technical point of view. The concept behind it is a pure focus on German speaking end- users, with original, quality controlled and tightly integrated content. I don't expect everybody to see why this makes such a big difference just yet, that's the nature of a new approach. It's up to us to show why and how this adds value, maybe not primarily to existing contributors, but to new ones that can get more easily acquainted with openSUSE. Cheers, -- sebas http://www.kde.org | http://vizZzion.org | GPG Key ID: 9119 0EF9 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

Hi Kostas, Kostas Koudaras wrote: Although I myself can't read Greek, you can read s short explanation for top-level domain at: http://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top-level_domain For example, look at the domain name 'software.opensuse.org'. Top level domain: org Socond level domain: opensuse sub-domain: software So, the word 'opensuse' is used as a second level domain in 'opensuse.gr'. On the other hand, I've registered a domain name 'opensuse-ja.homelinux.org' at DynDNS, but the term 'opensuse' is used as third level domain in that case. Best, -- _/_/ Satoru Matsumoto - openSUSE Member - Japan _/_/ _/_/ Marketing/Weekly News/openFATE Screening Team _/_/ _/_/ mail: helios_reds_at_gmx.net / irc: HeliosReds _/_/ _/_/ http://blog.zaq.ne.jp/opensuse/ _/_/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

Hi Kostas, As Vincent pointed out, the domain name policy is outlined on the trademarks page. I'm adding permission(a)novell.com to the "To" line to get you an official answer. The Greek Community is doing great stuff! regards, AlanClark -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

&lt;AANLkTin_rtvcvDxe8jr6Ownpyq90E6rSVNSXKmCuh4RT(a)mail.gmail.com&gt;om>, Kostas Koudaras &lt;warlordfff(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: No reason to suspend at all. Keep going. The Greek community is a great contribution to the project. I'll get you the information you're looking for from permission@. thanks, Alan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

Hi Alan, Alan Clark wrote: That WAS the point. Since we can read the description 'With the exception of Software, all content on *this website* is made available under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License version 1.2 ("GFDL") unless expressly otherwise indicated.' at http://en.opensuse.org/Legal#Copyright_notice , we asked Jürgen Weigert "What does 'this website' refer to? Whole *.opensuse.org (including news.o.o, lizards.o.o, build.o.o and so on)? Or, just only en.o.o?" before, and Sascha told me that he got an answer from him which said "'this site' just means wiki." (I myself didn't get the answer, though). Thanks to your answer, we can understand much clearer than before. Thanks to your comment again here. But I'm still confused. Things are not that easy. Essentially, "No international copyright law exists (...)" http://depts.washington.edu/uwcopy/Copyright_Law/International_Copyright_La… And we can refer to various copyright laws from: http://portal.unesco.org/culture/en/ev.php-URL_ID=14076&URL_DO=DO_TOPIC… But for example, Japanese law has an article on 'Quotations' [1], while US law has article on 'Fair use' [2] instead of 'Quotations'. According to US law, people may 'fair use' contents from other sites under certain conditions. I think that's why some news sites (for example, linux today [3], LXer [4], entirelyopensource.com [5]) can introduce articles from other sites with some paragraphs of citation. But I could find the explanation: "Fair Use - The fair use defense to copyright infringement under §107 of US copyright law is much broader than international fair use provisions. International fair use exemptions tend to be more specific in nature." [6]. So, if I refer to Japanese law and guidelines, current quotation style of OWN is not appropriate. As far as I know, the borderline between legitimate 'Quotations' or 'Fair Use' and illegal ones may vary among countries and we don't have any universal standard. That's why I have to ask, "Which country's copyright law and guidelines should we refer to, when we act as a part of openSUSE project?" If the answer is "Refer to US law" for example, the sitiation would be much simpler. [1] http://www.cric.or.jp/cric_e/clj/clj.html # Refer to Article 32. [2] http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.html [3] http://www.linuxtoday.com/ [4] http://lxer.com/ [5] http://www.entirelyopensource.com/ [6] http://depts.washington.edu/uwcopy/Copyright_Law/International_Copyright_La… Best, -- _/_/ Satoru Matsumoto - openSUSE Member - Japan _/_/ _/_/ Marketing/Weekly News/openFATE Screening Team _/_/ _/_/ mail: helios_reds_at_gmx.net / irc: HeliosReds _/_/ _/_/ http://blog.zaq.ne.jp/opensuse/ _/_/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

jdd wrote: So, let's see this matter through a different lens. As I wrote in another post in this thread, I think '99.99% we won't be charged with violation of copyright, because most of the authors want their works to be read by as many readers as possible.' However, in case a copyright owner will start a lawsuit, who will be the defendant? For now, openSUSE Foundation is not yet established and openSUSE project itself doesn't have legal personality. This is not only the case of OWN team, but may be also the case of other teams in openSUSE project. If an activity of a team (and in case the activity is a part of activities of whole project) will violate some laws, who should be responsible? Best, -- _/_/ Satoru Matsumoto - openSUSE Member - Japan _/_/ _/_/ Marketing/Weekly News/openFATE Screening Team _/_/ _/_/ mail: helios_reds_at_gmx.net / irc: HeliosReds _/_/ _/_/ http://blog.zaq.ne.jp/opensuse/ _/_/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

Hello Alan, "Alan Clark" &lt;aclark(a)novell.com&gt; wrote at Friday 11 February 2011: Then it would be better to say this on the bottom of news.o.o, lizards.o.o too. But if i understand this right, GFDL is a bad choose for Webcontent. If we go to: http://www.gnu.org/licenses/fdl.html#addendum we see, that all Documents who are standing under the GFDL must have a Copyright/License Block. No of our Documents have such Block. I think this is a better License for our Documentation (Doc-Team). The Preamble says: The purpose of this License is to make a manual, textbook, or other functional and useful document "free" in the sense of freedom. In http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Comparison_of_GFDL_and_CC-BY- SA we can see, that the GFDL "requires" to paste the full License into each new written Document. There is just a Link to the GFDL Site not enough. So i propose to change the Content from *.opensuse.org to a CC License maybe CC-BY-SA. In that case a Link to the CC License is just enough. ATM we doing so: * We just using a Article in whole for the Weekly News if the Original Article is licensed under CC-BY-SA. * All other Articles who doesn't match this License we just introduce with 2 or 3 Paragraphs. In all Cases we linking to the Original Article and we adding $SITE/$AUTHOR before the Title of the Article. I propose to use this Legalnotice for the Weekly News: This compilation is licensed under the Creative Commons Attribution- ShareAlike 3.0 Unported License (unless expressly otherwise indicated) by the openSUSE Weekly News Team. To view a copy of this license, visit http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/ or send a letter to Creative Commons 171 Second Street Suite 300 San Francisco California 94105 USA. If any Article doesn't match this License we can add the Copyrightnotice of the Original Article on the End of the Newsletter. Maybe this is a solution? -- Sincerely Yours Sascha Manns open-slx Community & Support Agent openSUSE Membership Comitee openSUSE Marketing Team Blog: http://saigkill.wordpress.com German Community Portal: http://community.open-slx.de -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

On Sat, 2011-02-12 at 02:48 +0900, Satoru Matsumoto wrote: Planet aggregator does not contain any feed in the source code, so that should be fine. People reading it, copying it should respect the author's license in my opinion -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

Hi Pascal, Pascal Bleser wrote: That's for sure. But if we could add something like 'terms of use' to planet.opensuse.org which says "your blogs aggregated on this planet may be republished on other opensuse.org sites under GFDL license for the purpose of marketing and promoting openSUSE" for example, it would be prefect for us. Do you think we can? Best, -- _/_/ Satoru Matsumoto - openSUSE Member - Japan _/_/ _/_/ Marketing/Weekly News/openFATE Screening Team _/_/ _/_/ mail: helios_reds_at_gmx.net / irc: HeliosReds _/_/ _/_/ http://blog.zaq.ne.jp/opensuse/ _/_/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

Pascal Bleser wrote: That's exactly the point for us, translators (as you may know, I'm one of the editors of en OWN and a part of translation team of ja OWN as well). If I understand correctly, translation is not considered 'being cited as-is' but a kind of modifications. So, the question here is, do we considered to be allowed to translate their works and put them on ja OWN? And, we publish ja OWN on ja.o.o. That is, 'unless expressly otherwise indicated' all the contents in them are considered to be available under GFDL 1.2 license. So, we need to 'expressly otherwise indicate' the license of each article from planet if they are not originally posted to *.opensuse.org sites. And, make things even worse, most of the licenses of those blogs are not clearly expressed. How can we effectively 'expressly otherwise indicate' those licenses? That's why I thought 'it would be prefect for us' if we can ask all the authors of planet to apply GFDL license to their works. As I mentioned in another post, I believe (and hope) we are 99.99% safe as is. This is the last part of 0.01% concern. Best, -- _/_/ Satoru Matsumoto - openSUSE Member - Japan _/_/ _/_/ Marketing/Weekly News/openFATE Screening Team _/_/ _/_/ mail: helios_reds_at_gmx.net / irc: HeliosReds _/_/ _/_/ http://blog.zaq.ne.jp/opensuse/ _/_/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

Hey, guys when are you going to realize that the 0,01% your are trying to solve are not worth all this effort? :) Henne -- Henne Vogelsang, openSUSE. Everybody has a plan, until they get hit. - Mike Tyson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

Hi, On 15.02.2011 12:44, jdd wrote: That's why it's okay to talk about the licensing of the content on our web-pages. But it's rather pointless to talk about re-licensing of content aggregated on the planet or cited in the weekly newsletter... Henne -- Henne Vogelsang, openSUSE. Everybody has a plan, until they get hit. - Mike Tyson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

Hi, I really appreciate your answers and comments. pistazienfresser (see profile) wrote: Henne, the percentage is about the possibility of whether we will be sued or not. Whether we are compliant or not is yet another question. And yes, you might be right, if we need to think ONLY about English OWN. If you, or any other responsible persons, will answer 'Yes' to my question, I don't need to ask the same question again and again anymore. What I want is, an answer such as 'Yes, you do. However, in case the author call on you to halt translating, respect the author's will and right.' The suspicion that our work may not be compliant will disturb us. We, contributors always want to be proud of our work. ;-) For handling articles from external sites, your comment is right to the point. But at the same time, those require much more time and English skill and cannot be done only by current OWN team. To discuss those issues, I've already started other threads on -marketing list, but unfortunately, there weren't so many persons who were willing to involved in the discussions. :-( http://lists.opensuse.org/archive/opensuse-marketing/2011-01/msg00275.html http://lists.opensuse.org/archive/opensuse-marketing/2011-01/msg00276.html Giving up handling articles, of which licenses aren't clear, may be the easiest solution for this problem. But what we wish is, providing good information and news which readers really want to read. Indeed. Best, -- _/_/ Satoru Matsumoto - openSUSE Member - Japan _/_/ _/_/ Marketing/Weekly News/openFATE Screening Team _/_/ _/_/ mail: helios_reds_at_gmx.net / irc: HeliosReds _/_/ _/_/ http://blog.zaq.ne.jp/opensuse/ _/_/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

Hey, On 02/16/2011 02:31 AM, Satoru Matsumoto wrote: Let me tell you a secret. You can always get sued :) Contracts are a matter of civil law (compensation for the injured party) and not criminal law (punishment of the breaching party). It only takes someone who thinks you breached the contract you had with them to get sued. The compensation is what is tried in court. I would guess in this case, citing or translating of original work published on the internet which is licensed or not, the risk of getting sued is very, very low because there is no real damage involved and the involved parties are not hostile to you in any way. BTW this risk isn't really a relative one you can express in percentage. If you want to express risks in percentages you need also to define the actions that differ. For instance it's 0.7% more likely to get sued if you re-publish artwork then if you don't. Or the risk of getting sued is 730% higher if you print ja-OWN in a magazine and sell it. The risk-factor for getting sued if you publish ja-OWN is actually a very complicated calculation with a lot of determinants... This is the same all over the world. You think that someone else than you, who creates the ja-OWN, is responsible for it? I'm sorry but this is not the case. You can ask everyone's opinion on a matter like this but you don't have to seek anyone’s(!) approval. openSUSE has no overall responsible persons. Just individuals that are responsible for what they do. Maybe it helps you if I state my opinion a bit more clearly then a snippy once sentence answer to a long mail thread. Here we go: You are fine and you worry way too much about the legal aspects of this. The risk involved is minimal. Remember your goal: You want to inform people of whats going on in the openSUSE Project. What you do currently is keeping you from reaching this goal. Henne -- Henne Vogelsang, openSUSE. Everybody has a plan, until they get hit. - Mike Tyson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

Le 16/02/2011 17:16, Naruhiko Ogasawara a écrit : you can be sued in court for any reason. A people that think you distrubed him, the father of your wife, even your mom may ask you money. All these events are extremely unlikely and I sincerely hope you'll never have such problem, but I see similar thing in the news paper any day! the risk you are sued for openSUSE is of that level. And, of course, any people here will try to help you (including financially if ever this could be necessary) don't fear too much, you could be obliged to close yourself inside your home :-)) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xgxog7_clip-l-ombre-et-la-lumiere-3-bad-pi… http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGgv_ZFtV14 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

Le 16/02/2011 18:07, Naruhiko Ogasawara a écrit : what is the risk on our subject? being sued is not a risk, it's at most an annoyance. the risk is to have to pay some money. for a court to condamn you to pay money, it must be a recognised fault causing damage. I don't see this happen on that subject jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xgxog7_clip-l-ombre-et-la-lumiere-3-bad-pi… http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGgv_ZFtV14 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

Hi, Sorry I couldn't cover all of discussion, but if OWN's licensing issue is like as a dry-land kayaking, why Board / Novell can't handle this? It's very easy, isn't it? Yes you have your opinion, and I have my concern. I need to rest (right now 2:38a.m. JST) and how I should do that. Thanks, -- Naruhiko Ogasawara (naruoga(a)gmail.com) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

Jim Henderson wrote: If we just need to focus whether we can be sued or not, I agree with you. However, if we focus whether we are really compliant or not, we need to be more deliberate. One of the OWN-ja team members told me his concern: if we, as a part of openSUSE project, are not compliant, we may destroy the credibility of the project itself. We need to avoid the risk. I found his concern is reasonable. Just imagine the case: You are now driving a car and going to go through a cross walk. The stoplight has turned red. But as far as you can see, no one is going to cross at the cross walk. ... What will you do, if your car is Geeko-painted so that everyone can realize that the car is owned by openSUSE? You may rarely cause a fatal accident even if you drive through a red light in such a case. But imagine how people would feel if they watch you ignore a red light. I have to admit, we can't be 100% compliant in our real lives. To be honest, I would sometimes ignore a red light in such a case, IF I DRIVE MY OWN CAR, because I'm exactly the one who have to take personal responsibility in such a case. But I shouldn't, IF I DRIVE A GEEKO-PAINTED CAR. Having a lot of fun is very very important. I definately agree. But at the same time, being as compliant as possible is also important. If our work is not fun, how can I call for others to be engaged in contributing? However, if our work is not compliant, how can I call for others to be engaged in contributing? What we OWN-ja team are now seeking is, the efficient way for providing worthful and interesting information to readers, and at the same time for being as compliant as possible so that (potential) contributors can help us without any concern (or, at least, so that they can help us with confidence). Please do not forget, what I'm asking you in this thread is, to help us find out the better way both for meeting readers request and being as compliant as possible. Do you really think this effort is worthless and 'What you do currently is keeping you from reaching this goal'? In addition, if we have to tell the persons who are willing to help us 'you have to assume the risks, because openSUSE has no overall responsible persons to help you', do you think they will be motivated? If I can't tell them 'do whatever you want and have a lot of fun. As long as you respect and support the Guiding Principles and act in a sensible manner, openSUSE community will always stand by you!', I can no longer ask others to join our community. Best, -- _/_/ Satoru Matsumoto - openSUSE Member - Japan _/_/ _/_/ Marketing/Weekly News/openFATE Screening Team _/_/ _/_/ mail: helios_reds_at_gmx.net / irc: HeliosReds _/_/ _/_/ http://blog.zaq.ne.jp/opensuse/ _/_/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

Hey Satoru, On 17.02.2011 04:25, Satoru Matsumoto wrote: You are the ja-OWN leader. You make it happen, you speak for it, you organize the contributors around it, its your thing! That means you are the authority. You are the openSUSE Project. Go out and take decisions or speak for the Project. You don't need to seek approval from anyone. You have earned that right by relentlessly driving the OWN and ja-OWN. No one ever questioned your authority so don't question it yourself :) If you are still asking for recognition for yourself and for your efforts from everyone else just look at the furious attempts in this thread to convince you that you are a OWN leader, that people will always do whatever they can to help you with anything and that OWN and ja-OWN are a really important effort for this project. Satoru you are one of the important and responsible people of the openSUSE project and all the openSUSE Project is about is working together and standing by each other at any time. Henne -- Henne Vogelsang, openSUSE. Everybody has a plan, until they get hit. - Mike Tyson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

Naruhiko Ogasawara wrote: This issue has 2 elements. Some just concern whether we can be sued or not, while others are worrying about whether we are really compliant or not. Focusing the former element, most of you think that the possibility of being sued in this case is extremely low. So do I. We may be claimed by authors, but rarely sued as long as we respond sincerely to the claim. I'm sure Naruhiko also is well aware of that. But if I understand correctly, what actually disappointed him is the stance of openSUSE project. Each contributor has a possibility to violate some laws or licenses as a result of her contribution and be claimed even if she is devoid of malice. In such a case, will openSUSE project just say to her 'openSUSE has no overall responsible persons. Just individuals that are responsible for what they do.' instead of 'Don't worry. We, openSUSE project, will work together to solve the trouble which you face.'? Cool. I bet no one will take a needless risk anymore. How can people believe that openSUSE is worthy enough to support? What contributors really want is not a guarantee by the project, but a feeling of ease or trust 'I'm not walking alone. When I face any trouble, I'll be helped by others, as long as I help others when they fase troubles.' I really hope you will understand what I mean. Best, -- _/_/ Satoru Matsumoto - openSUSE Member - Japan _/_/ _/_/ Marketing/Weekly News/openFATE Screening Team _/_/ _/_/ mail: helios_reds_at_gmx.net / irc: HeliosReds _/_/ _/_/ http://blog.zaq.ne.jp/opensuse/ _/_/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

I. Am 17/02/11 03:48, schrieb Rajko M.: That is why I surgested to split the discussion to a possible gain[1] of the unborn foundation[2] If I look at the many costly de:Abmahnungen (~warnings/call to order) that private persons or small trader get from lawyers in Germany for using illegal contracts of annex or trademarks of others on one hand (e. g. on ebay) and the big companies using clearly illegal paragraphs for a long time on the other hand - I would doubt it. The probability that the target could hit back or at least will be able to defend its self seems to me a basic parameter in the calculation of the aggressor, too. And if there is no legal eternity the aggressor might also think of suing all the participants of the openSUSE community (in German law maybe as a BGB-Gesellschaft/Gesellschaft bürgerlichen Rechts). II. But I think the discussion has come to the point that the people of the openSUSE Weekly News team (as long as they are represented in this thread) more wanted to act in 'the right way'. So if they want to publish the openSUSE Weekly News under a (US- or other) Corporate Commons License what do they need? 1. Maybe a green light of the board (was that really the problem jet?). 2. If they want to conclude the (hole?/most parts of the) work of other people the consent of those other persons and maybe also that those persons also publish under the/a CC license. But what can the board do about that? I do not think that the board should try to 'order' other persons to publish under a specific license - they might just act stubborn and publish their work only on their own website and will be no longer willing to let their work be included in the openSUSE Weekly News. So if II.1. is no problem than II.2 should in my mind be handled by the openSUSE Weekly New team on their own. Just my thoughts about it - without costs and without liability higher than a normal person's thoughts are [2]...). Regards Martin [1] This seems to be the first point "Objective of the Foundation" in the agenda on http://en.opensuse.org/Portal:Foundation/Topics and the theme of the working paper/ proposal on http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Foundation [2]or other form of artificial person/legal body/legal person -> this seems to be the second point "The legal form of the foundation" in the argenda on http://en.opensuse.org/Portal:Foundation/Topics and the theme of the working paper on http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Foundation_legal_form [3] See § 675 section II Bürgerliches Gesetzbuch http://dejure.org/gesetze/BGB/675.html (de with decissons) http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_bgb/englisch_bgb.html#BGBengl_00… (en) -- - Martin Seidler - openSUSE profile: https://users.opensuse.org/show/pistazienfresser -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

Hi Henne, Thank you for catching my ball. I'll try to concludes my hope shortly. Hmm... how can I say that... Yes I agree that any legal issue of current OWN will possibly not caused (99.99%), but if we got 0.01%? In such situation, I need some help. I don't know exactly what kind of help we needed, but I might not be able to handle all of things alone. So, about OWN, If Satoru's effort will success, I mean whole of OWN will contains license/copyright clear articles, it is best for me because possibility will become 0.01% to 0%! It's my fault. I shouldn't bring my kayak ;). What I want is just written above. Thanks, -- Naruhiko Ogasawara (naruoga(a)gmail.com) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

Le 11/02/2011 18:48, Satoru Matsumoto a écrit : no. The copyright owner can change the licence *for any new text* but not for any existing. Who can say if some authors won't desagree? in case of multiple author each one have the licence rights (that's why this licence stuff is so important) and don't think we don't have to think twice if the cc licence don't have also drawbacks sad, but true jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xgxog7_clip-l-ombre-et-la-lumiere-3-bad-pi… http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGgv_ZFtV14 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

Ok people listen something I started the Greek translation and I worked the first issues with only another two persons, generally as I see things I made some serious work and I believe I followed all the rules and if I made a mistake somewhere believe me it was an honest mistake. I did all that because I wanted and still want to help the openSUSE project but I read various legal issues here that I don't understand and to be honest I don't really want to. That conversation is making people like me nervous, I don't want to read any terms carefully and if I do I will probably won't understand them, I am a firefighter,not a lawyer. Please someone explain in two words if it is possible how we should do the translation without having legal problems or any other problems, if that is not possible let me know and I will advise the Greek community to stop the Greek translation and after that it is in Greek peoples hands to decide. This is not in any way a threat to anyone but a logical move since none wants to risk having troubles with the law because he is voluntarily doing work in a project. At least not the people I call for help. I hope you understand my point of view. Kostas 2011/2/11 Satoru Matsumoto &lt;helios_reds(a)gmx.net&gt;et>: -- http://opensuse.gr http://amb.opensuse.gr http://own.opensuse.gr http://warlordfff.tk me I am not me ------- Time travel is possible, you just need to know the right aliens -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

Le 11/02/2011 20:59, Satoru Matsumoto a écrit : t do you mean Novell add some part on top of the GFDL? tricky. yes, of course _for future use_ I don't think GFDL allow that anyway (without authors formal consent) and are you sure cc is a good choice (not evrybody may agree, this should not be changed without much care. be sure I don't say that to make problems, all the contrary, my goal is to lessen future problems jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xgxog7_clip-l-ombre-et-la-lumiere-3-bad-pi… http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGgv_ZFtV14 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org