26 Jun
2010
26 Jun
'10
2:11 a.m.
Dear list,
after having read all those "why I wont use the forums" posts, to which I
certainly contributed my share with my "venomous" post I got fed up with it
and am somehow wondering how to improve that since we all should be supposed
to pull on the same string.
So, can we just cut that right now and here and instead find out some way how
to make those forums more attractive for the people who are currently not
using them and OTOH making forum users create more productive bug reports
since "reporting by proxy" is NO option IMHO?
Regarding the problem: I think it has been established by now that those
forums are considered some swamp that makes it very hard to find out some
interesting topic one would like to get involved in (may it be because one is
interested in the topic or one maintains a package that is related to it).
Which is why most people apparently simply don't bother with said forums.
OTOH you, the forum admins, have been asked quite some times to introduce some
subtopics targeting more specific needs. So could you please reconsider your
stance and admit that it will be easier to find "interesting" topics one might
be inclined to get involved in if one doesn't have to wade through loads of
other stuff?
Your, the forum admins`, answer was mostly that said subtopics are already
covered by their parent ones (e.g. applications for servers and security).
OTOH you happily run some "64-bit" subforum which makes no sense IMHO since
this nowadays boils down to having to install the necessary 32-bit compat libs
for some binary blobs (e.g. skype).
So, to make it short: Can you, the forum admins, please agree that introducing
some subforums for specific topics makes it much easier to find "interesting"
posts for the "contributor" / "dev" so those would be more inclined to
get
involved and can we please get some list together of "interesting" topics so
those get realized?
Point simply being adding some subforum doesn't cost a single $ but makes it
much easier to find - personally - "interesting" topics so one gets more
inclined to get involved.
From my personal POV I would be delighted to see:
1. a "security" one for stuff like apparmor, selinux, ssl with certificates,
general server hardening and so on
2. a "server" one for stuff like apache, php, samba, XEN, KVM, general
virtualization and so on.
Please add some topics you (the "currently not using the forums dude") would
like to see so you could more easily identify the topics you are interested in
so you might be even more inclined to participate in that forums.
Last but not least I'm seriously wondering on those "reporting in bugzilla for
forum users" discussion. So could you, the forum admins and users, please make
it plain clear to your fellow users that:
1. To report something broken there is only ONE place and that is
http://bugzilla.novell.com/
2. If you (the random user) don't like the interface then welcome to the club
but until someone writes a new one this wont change.
3. Reporting a bug as a proxy is plain useless since you (the proxy reporter)
will never be able to answer any follow up questions.
And here comes the most important one:
4. You need NO knowledge to report a bug but are simply supposed to explain as
best as you can what you did to produce that bug. Then the devs will simply
ask what you did, if it isn't clear, and tell you what information they need
to fix it. If you don't know how to provide that info then simply ASK. Every
single dev I know is perfectly happy to tell you how to provide the requested
information so really all that is required from you is to create a bugreport,
do the best you can and then simply be receptive.
Ok, that got quite lengthy, sorry for that and thanks for sticking with me.
Please keep it productive.
regards,
Stephan.
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26 Jun
26 Jun
5:10 a.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Why I wont use the forums
Hi, Stephan -
Thank you for starting this thread. I think this provides a good
starting point for some very productive discussions.
I've a few comments along the way, please take them all in the spirit of
moving the discussion forward. Again, I *really* appreciate you opening
the dialog this way.
On Sat, 26 Jun 2010 02:11:47 +0200, Stephan Kleine wrote:
OTOH you, the forum admins, have been asked quite some
times to
introduce some subtopics targeting more specific needs. So could you
please reconsider your stance and admit that it will be easier to find
"interesting" topics one might be inclined to get involved in if one
doesn't have to wade through loads of other stuff?
Your, the forum admins`, answer was mostly that said subtopics are
already covered by their parent ones (e.g. applications for servers and
security). OTOH you happily run some "64-bit" subforum which makes no
sense IMHO since this nowadays boils down to having to install the
necessary 32-bit compat libs for some binary blobs (e.g. skype).
Sure, let's discuss the options. If we can come up with a better
structure than what we currently have, I believe that would be seen
universally as a good thing. We may not agree on the final breakdown,
but if we can make it easier for potential repliers to find topics of
interest and make it easier for users to self-classify their issues by
picking the right forum, that should make everyone's job easier.
From my personal POV I would be delighted to see:
1. a "security" one for stuff like apparmor, selinux, ssl with
certificates, general server hardening and so on
I've seen this one suggested a few times (even in the forums). The
concern in the past (as I understand it) has been that while we certainly
agree security topics are important, that we ensure that the users know
that it's not the place to talk about specific exploits and how to apply
them. I think if we can make it clear that's not what the space is for,
but more about system hardening, that's something I personally also would
like to see.
2. a "server" one for stuff like apache,
php, samba, XEN, KVM, general
virtualization and so on.
It might make sense to consider subdivision of that - maybe server
services as one and virtualization as another, though I do see how the
two might overlap.
Last but not least I'm seriously wondering on
those "reporting in
bugzilla for forum users" discussion. So could you, the forum admins and
users, please make it plain clear to your fellow users that:
1. To report something broken there is only ONE place and that is
http://bugzilla.novell.com/
2. If you (the random user) don't like the interface then welcome to the
club but until someone writes a new one this wont change.
That's fair; I hadn't talked to any developers who use bugzilla who don't
like it before, and I think many end-users look at bugzilla and think of
it as a tool written by developers for developers - for many it probably
never crosses their mind that the interface is perhaps cumbersome for the
developer as well.
3. Reporting a
bug as a proxy is plain useless since you (the proxy reporter) will
never be able to answer any follow up questions.
Personally, I can't agree with this 100%, but I certainly can agree that
it's not the optimal or best solution. That was largely me brainstorming
ways to make the process better for everyone - and I'm certainly open to
alternatives.
Perhaps what we could do as an alternative is encourage users to file
their own bugs, but have a formal dispute resolution process in the event
the reporter and the developer come to an impasse or otherwise aren't
able to reconcile the way forward. Someone could mediate the dispute so
- if at all possible - a mutually acceptable solution could be found.
Is that something you'd see as a good alternative?
4. You need NO knowledge to report a bug but are
simply supposed to
explain as best as you can what you did to produce that bug. Then the
devs will simply ask what you did, if it isn't clear, and tell you what
information they need to fix it. If you don't know how to provide that
info then simply ASK. Every single dev I know is perfectly happy to tell
you how to provide the requested information so really all that is
required from you is to create a bugreport, do the best you can and then
simply be receptive.
That sounds very reasonable to me. :-)
Ok, that got quite lengthy, sorry for that and thanks
for sticking with
me. Please keep it productive.
No problem - length doesn't bother me personally, and again, thank you
for taking the time to initiate this discussion; you've clearly given
this a lot of thought and want to see us all working "on the same side" -
which of course, we are all on the same side; we all want to make
openSUSE the *best* it can be. :-)
Jim
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9:59 a.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Why I wont use the forums
Le 26/06/2010 05:10, Jim Henderson a écrit :
better first asking the forum. devs have better to do than answering
again and again togher sale questions. openSUSE forum have already
very good tutorials and can redirect users to them (and write more)
jdd
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Perhaps what we could do as an alternative is
encourage users to file
their own bugs, but have a formal dispute resolution process in the event
the reporter and the developer come to an impasse or otherwise aren't
able to reconcile the way forward. Someone could mediate the dispute so
- if at all possible - a mutually acceptable solution could be found.
Is that something you'd see as a good alternative?
absolutely. We have to teach the user how to use bugzilla and help him
do so.
Think also that any user correctly driven and becoming a bugzilla user
*is* by the way a new power user. This is a very practical way to
catch new contributors :-))
thats not to say bugzilla is perfect, far from it. I was myself very
frighten by bugzilla at first (and the lag between the report and any
kind of result)
But it's wrong to say bugzilla is the only way to report a bug. A bug
should most of the time be first reported on the mailing list or the
forum.. Many "bugs" are simply misunderstanding of the way an app
works or so frequent any power user already know it and finally it's
good for anybody to know it and anybody don't read bugzilla :-))
info then
simply ASK. Every single dev I know is perfectly happy to tell
you how to provide the requested information so really all that is
required from you is to create a bugreport, do the best you can and then
simply be receptive.
That sounds very reasonable to me. :-)
28 Jun
28 Jun
6:28 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Why I wont use the forums
On Sat, 26 Jun 2010 09:59:26 +0200, jdd wrote:
Le 26/06/2010 05:10, Jim Henderson a écrit :
The more I think about it, the more I like this approach better. :-)
Perhaps what we could do as an alternative is
encourage users to file
their own bugs, but have a formal dispute resolution process in the
event the reporter and the developer come to an impasse or otherwise
aren't able to reconcile the way forward. Someone could mediate the
dispute so - if at all possible - a mutually acceptable solution could
be found.
Is that something you'd see as a good alternative?
absolutely. We have to teach the user how to use bugzilla and help him
do so. But it's wrong to say bugzilla is the only way to
report a bug. A bug
should most of the time be first reported on the mailing list or the
forum.. Many "bugs" are simply misunderstanding of the way an app works
or so frequent any power user already know it and finally it's good for
anybody to know it and anybody don't read bugzilla :-))
I personally like to ask the community (regardless of which project it
is) if an issue is known, if others have run into it, and if others have
found workarounds - for this very reason. Of course, I also search for
the bug, but sometimes it's hard to find the right phrase or keyword to
put in in order to find older versions of the bug.
Jim
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26 Jun
26 Jun
12:42 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Why I wont use the forums
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
On 2010-06-26 05:10, Jim Henderson wrote:
To me, list user, the number of forums (I try to read them sometimes, via nntp only) and
their names
is disconcerting. I can't relate them to the mail list names, I don't know which
to read.
For example, there is "opensuse.org.help.prerelease-beta". Is that equivalent to
opensuse-factory?
If so, why not have it named "...factory"?
Or "opensuse.org.help.install-boot-login". I see threads like "Software
update apparently replaced
Firefox 3.6.4 with 3.5.9", "bundle-lang-gnome 2233 update fails",
"Graphics Card Driver for GMA HD
Please". I fail to see the relation to the group name... :-? Boot or login problems?
I don't really
know what that group is for from reading the title.
To me, it is disconcerting.
Then, there is, for example, opensuse.org.news.security-announcements. I'm reading via
news
interface, often off-line. But all posts I try, instead of containing the security
information,
contains the link to the info somewhere else... thus, useless to me. The equivalent mail
list does
contain all the info "inside".
opensuse.org.news.tech-news has a similar problem.
Then, a post or a thread I understand can be moved from a group to another. This is very
disconcerting via nntp.
Perhaps all this seems silly to a person used to forums, but then, maybe, they help keep
some of us
listers away from the forums.
How about a guide for mail list users attempting to participate in the forums? Maybe it
exists already?
[bugzilla]
Hi, Stephan -
Your, the
forum admins`, answer was mostly that said subtopics are
already covered by their parent ones (e.g. applications for servers and
security). OTOH you happily run some "64-bit" subforum which makes no
sense IMHO since this nowadays boils down to having to install the
necessary 32-bit compat libs for some binary blobs (e.g. skype).
Sure, let's discuss the options. If we can come up with a better
structure than what we currently have, I believe that would be seen
universally as a good thing. We may not agree on the final breakdown,
but if we can make it easier for potential repliers to find topics of
interest and make it easier for users to self-classify their issues by
picking the right forum, that should make everyone's job easier. Perhaps what we could do as an alternative is
encourage users to file
their own bugs, but have a formal dispute resolution process in the event
the reporter and the developer come to an impasse or otherwise aren't
able to reconcile the way forward. Someone could mediate the dispute so
- if at all possible - a mutually acceptable solution could be found.
Absolutely :-)
- --
Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R.
(from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" GM (Elessar))
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28 Jun
28 Jun
6:38 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Why I wont use the forums
On Sat, 26 Jun 2010 12:42:12 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
We try to move threads into the appropriate forum when they're misposed;
that does create issues for the NNTP gateway, but for new threads, we do
try to take care of this. If someone finds a thread in the wrong place¸
it can be reported with a suggestion as to where it should be located
instead. If it's been around for a while, we generally don't move it,
but if it's a new thread, we do try to ensure they're moved to the right
forum.
I personally prefer to redirect the user rather than do the move for them
- that way the user learns *and* has to take extra steps (which to me
means they will try harder the next time they post so they don't have to
do *more* work).
The more I think about this, the more I like this idea.
Jim
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Sure,
let's discuss the options. If we can come up with a better
structure than what we currently have, I believe that would be seen
universally as a good thing. We may not agree on the final breakdown,
but if we can make it easier for potential repliers to find topics of
interest and make it easier for users to self-classify their issues by
picking the right forum, that should make everyone's job easier.
To me, list user, the number of forums (I try to read them sometimes,
via nntp only) and their names is disconcerting. I can't relate them to
the mail list names, I don't know which to read. For example, there is
"opensuse.org.help.prerelease-beta". Is that
equivalent to opensuse-factory? If so, why not have it named
"...factory"?
They are roughly equivalent; I don't honestly know why 'factory' wasn't
used, I *think* because to the average end user, 'factory' doesn't have
the same connotation as it does to those who have been around the project
longer.
Or "opensuse.org.help.install-boot-login". I
see threads like "Software
update apparently replaced Firefox 3.6.4 with 3.5.9", "bundle-lang-gnome
2233 update fails", "Graphics Card Driver for GMA HD Please". I fail to
see the relation to the group name... :-? Boot or login problems? I
don't really know what that group is for from reading the title.
Looks like a few threads that should've been moved that weren't. It
happens; in general, it shouldn't, but there will always be people who
post to the wrong place. We've tried very hard to keep people from
posting support questions to the "Forums Feedback" section, by labeling
the support sections as "Get Help Here" and moving those feedback forums
to the bottom of the list (so they have to go past the "Get Help Here"
group of forums and we still get people asking support questions there.
Then, there is, for example,
opensuse.org.news.security-announcements.
I'm reading via news interface, often off-line. But all posts I try,
instead of containing the security information, contains the link to the
info somewhere else... thus, useless to me. The equivalent mail list
does contain all the info "inside".
opensuse.org.news.tech-news has a similar problem.
That particular group is fed from an RSS feed - that's why the
information is linked rather than posted; we post just what's in the RSS
feed information.
Then, a post or a thread I understand can be moved
from a group to
another. This is very disconcerting via nntp.
Yes - the gateway doesn't handle moves very gracefully. As I mentioned
in a post to Rajko on (I think) Friday, the NNTP gateway imposes some
limitations; we have one guy who has done some development work on it and
has improved it significantly, but he hasn't had the time (he's a
volunteer) to make any additional enhancements recently.
Perhaps all this seems silly to a person used to
forums, but then,
maybe, they help keep some of us listers away from the forums.
No, those are perfectly valid issues to raise. The question becomes how
to address them, or how to mitigate them.
How about a guide for mail list users attempting to
participate in the
forums? Maybe it exists already?
I haven't seen a guide like this myself - what do you think would be
useful topics to include in such a guide?
Perhaps what
we could do as an alternative is encourage users to file
their own bugs, but have a formal dispute resolution process in the
event the reporter and the developer come to an impasse or otherwise
aren't able to reconcile the way forward. Someone could mediate the
dispute so - if at all possible - a mutually acceptable solution could
be found.
Absolutely :-)
29 Jun
29 Jun
9:57 a.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Why I wont use the forums
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256
[sent later]
On 2010-06-28 18:38, Jim Henderson wrote:
Yes, ßeta has an easier to guess at meaning. I think.
Perhaps what is needed is a read-only nntp group with quick help tips such as what is
appropriate on
each forum/group, how to post, etc. I think I saw some tips (I'm talking out of
year-old memories)
on the web interface, but I don't see them on NNTP.
Ah... I discovered another problem. My problem, I mean. I was just checking the
"howto" group, to
see if what I said above is already there. At the moment I'm off-line on my laptop,
but earlier I
made thunderbird to download contents, limited to 60 days old messages... meaning that the
howto
group is almost empty. I have to define individual settings for some groups
I understand. It happens in mail lists, so it will happen on forums, which are perhaps
more
fragmented. But I think that accessing via nntp those labels or tips are missing.
Mmm... I just had a look via http on a colleague computer with inet, and the index with
tips is nice.
Perhaps the announcements should be gated from the mail list posts.
I saw that later.
Dunno - I'm an absolute novice on forums. I've never posted there, as far as I
recall. And via nntp,
not yet. When I have spare time I'm off-line, which means that, even if I know the
answer for
something, it will reach very late.
I suppose that many of the points we are talking here would be interesting for that
guide.
- --
Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R.
(from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" GM (Minas Tirith))
On Sat, 26 Jun 2010 12:42:12 +0200, Carlos E. R.
wrote:
We try to move threads into the appropriate forum when they're misposed;
that does create issues for the NNTP gateway, but for new threads, we do
try to take care of this. If someone finds a thread in the wrong place¸
it can be reported with a suggestion as to where it should be located
instead. If it's been around for a while, we generally don't move it,
but if it's a new thread, we do try to ensure they're moved to the right
forum.
I personally prefer to redirect the user rather than do the move for them
- that way the user learns *and* has to take extra steps (which to me
means they will try harder the next time they post so they don't have to
do *more* work).
:-)
I would have no idea on how to move a thread using NNTP; I would have to repost.
Sure,
let's discuss the options. If we can come up with a better
structure than what we currently have, I believe that would be seen
universally as a good thing. We may not agree on the final breakdown,
but if we can make it easier for potential repliers to find topics of
interest and make it easier for users to self-classify their issues by
picking the right forum, that should make everyone's job easier.
To me, list user, the number of forums (I try to read them sometimes,
via nntp only) and their names is disconcerting. I can't relate them to
the mail list names, I don't know which to read. For example,
there is "opensuse.org.help.prerelease-beta". Is that
equivalent to opensuse-factory? If so, why not have it named
"...factory"?
They are roughly equivalent; I don't honestly know why 'factory' wasn't
used, I *think* because to the average end user, 'factory' doesn't have
the same connotation as it does to those who have been around the project
longer. Or
"opensuse.org.help.install-boot-login". I see threads like "Software
update apparently replaced Firefox 3.6.4 with 3.5.9", "bundle-lang-gnome
2233 update fails", "Graphics Card Driver for GMA HD Please". I fail to
see the relation to the group name... :-? Boot or login problems? I
don't really know what that group is for from reading the title.
Looks like a few threads that should've been moved that weren't. It
happens; in general, it shouldn't, but there will always be people who
post to the wrong place. We've tried very hard to keep people from
posting support questions to the "Forums Feedback" section, by labeling
the support sections as "Get Help Here" and moving those feedback forums
to the bottom of the list (so they have to go past the "Get Help Here"
group of forums and we still get people asking support questions there. Then, there
is, for example, opensuse.org.news.security-announcements.
I'm reading via news interface, often off-line. But all posts I try,
instead of containing the security information, contains the link to the
info somewhere else... thus, useless to me. The equivalent mail list
does contain all the info "inside".
opensuse.org.news.tech-news has a similar problem.
That particular group is fed from an RSS feed - that's why the
information is linked rather than posted; we post just what's in the RSS
feed information. Then, a post
or a thread I understand can be moved from a group to
another. This is very disconcerting via nntp.
Yes - the gateway doesn't handle moves very gracefully. As I mentioned
in a post to Rajko on (I think) Friday, the NNTP gateway imposes some
limitations; we have one guy who has done some development work on it and
has improved it significantly, but he hasn't had the time (he's a
volunteer) to make any additional enhancements recently. Perhaps all
this seems silly to a person used to forums, but then,
maybe, they help keep some of us listers away from the forums.
No, those are perfectly valid issues to raise. The question becomes how
to address them, or how to mitigate them.
How about a guide for mail list users attempting
to participate in the
forums? Maybe it exists already?
I haven't seen a guide like this myself - what do you think would be
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9:52 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Why I wont use the forums
On Tue, 29 Jun 2010 09:57:35 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Indeed, that's all one can do in NNTP - even in INN, making the necessary
changes in the database would be difficult, and doing so would wreak
havoc on people's high message pointers in their readers.
That may be an option. In talking with Kim (the technical admin), he
tells me that the ML gateway uses a single e-mail address, so I'm
wondering how the original posting information is preserved. We're
probably going to set up a test with one of the test MLs to see more how
it works, once we've got our vBulletin upgrade completed.
The place I'd have people start is with the forums FAQ - that answers a
lot of questions already and would provide a good foundation to start
from.
Jim
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I personally
prefer to redirect the user rather than do the move for
them - that way the user learns *and* has to take extra steps (which to
me means they will try harder the next time they post so they don't
have to do *more* work).
:-)
I would have no idea on how to move a thread using NNTP; I would have to
repost. Perhaps what is needed is a read-only nntp group with
quick help tips
such as what is appropriate on each forum/group, how to post, etc. I
think I saw some tips (I'm talking out of year-old memories) on the web
interface, but I don't see them on NNTP.
We try to make the names pretty self-descriptive; many newsreaders can
read a description field (it's optional in the RFC as I recall) that
gives a text description of the group. I don't know if the server we use
can present that, but I think it can.
Ah... I discovered another problem. My problem, I
mean. I was just
checking the "howto" group, to see if what I said above is already
there. At the moment I'm off-line on my laptop, but earlier I made
thunderbird to download contents, limited to 60 days old messages...
meaning that the howto group is almost empty. I have to define
individual settings for some groups
Yes, most people's message lists are limited by the client rather than
the server; we are set to expire old articles when the spool fills up,
but we're nowhere near filling the spool up from what I have been told.
I understand. It happens in mail lists, so it will
happen on forums,
which are perhaps more fragmented. But I think that accessing via nntp
those labels or tips are missing.
I think most of our misposted threads actually originate from the web
interface; our NNTP users seem to be a lot more saavy when it comes to
selecting a group. You can tell a web-initiated post in an NNTP client
by looking at the signature block - if it includes a link to the forum on
the web interface, that's where it came from. You'll also note the user
agent header shows that it came through the vBulletin USENET gateway (I
think that's the string, it's pretty clear). The NNTP-posting-host
header will also show the IP address for forums.novell.com.
That
particular group is fed from an RSS feed - that's why the
information is linked rather than posted; we post just what's in the
RSS feed information.
Perhaps the announcements should be gated from the mail list posts. I haven't
seen a guide like this myself - what do you think would be
useful topics to include in such a guide?
Dunno - I'm an absolute novice on forums. I've never posted there, as
far as I recall. And via nntp, not yet. When I have spare time I'm
off-line, which means that, even if I know the answer for something, it
will reach very late. 
30 Jun
30 Jun
9:01 a.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Why I wont use the forums
Jim Henderson wrote:
I think most of our misposted threads actually
originate from the web
interface; our NNTP users seem to be a lot more saavy when it comes to
selecting a group.
I think it's a lot easier to pick the right group when you've only got
9-10 lines of text, each the name of a forum.
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9:26 a.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Why I wont use the forums
Per Jessen wrote:
Jim Henderson wrote:
you should have heard the cries and screams when the forum front page
(forums.opensuse.org) was redesigned a few months back to make it more
like your 'easy'..
the typical forum user wants the jumble of info as it is today..
but still, with all the words needed to funnel folks to the right
place, they won't read it and STILL to post in the wrong forum..
it is frustrating for folks who used to get their connected-fix by
BBS....i don't know what else to do but ignore their need for bells,
winky-blinky and gimicks by using nntp..
the fact is (imHo) the typical new Linux trier/user today is a
non-techo, non-reading, impatient _child_ *or* an older and little
wiser Redmond Ship Jumper who is certain Linux _should_ work exactly
like what s/he is running away from..
i think most of both groups would be happy to accept all the malware
they used to have to duck *if* they didn't have to ever read a manual
(_and_ could buy, or steal, a half@ssed AV program as worthless and
cycle wasting as what they are used to)..
my point: if devs/contributors/voters think the universe of potential
new users are just like you, and design for yourself, i guess you are
gonna miss the largest majority of those out shopping/looking for a
new operating system home today..
[note: it is NOT my desire to see openSUSE morph into UbuntuTwo, nor
into dis-use....somewhere in between is were we are today, and should
remain]
ymmv
DenverD
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I think most of our misposted threads actually
originate from the web
interface; our NNTP users seem to be a lot more saavy when it comes to
selecting a group.
I think it's a lot easier to pick the right group when you've only got
9-10 lines of text, each the name of a forum.
9:41 a.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Why I wont use the forums
DenverD wrote:
Per Jessen wrote:
Haha - in a way, I'm not surprised but it is mind-boggling. Here's my
knode listing of the opensuse fora that I'm subscribed to:
http://public.jessen.ch/files/knode.jpg
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Jim Henderson wrote:
you should have heard the cries and screams when the forum front page
(forums.opensuse.org) was redesigned a few months back to make it more
like your 'easy'..
the typical forum user wants the jumble of info as it is today.. I think most of our misposted threads actually
originate from the
web interface; our NNTP users seem to be a lot more saavy when it
comes to selecting a group.
I think it's a lot easier to pick the right group when you've only
got 9-10 lines of text, each the name of a forum. 
5:45 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Why I wont use the forums
On Wed, 30 Jun 2010 09:26:39 +0200, DenverD wrote:
I don't know that the anecdotal evidence we have from the discussions
that took place when we started tweaking the layout is the 'typical'
user. It's always dangerous to assume that the 'loudest' complainers are
the 'typical' user and then to make decisions after making that
assumption.
There were a few people who were quite loud about it; there were several
then who were less loud about it, but said that they liked it or
suggested minor tweaks to it. The vast majority didn't participate in
the discussion, which could be for a variety of reasons.
Jim
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I think
it's a lot easier to pick the right group when you've only got
9-10 lines of text, each the name of a forum.
you should have heard the cries and screams when the forum front page
(forums.opensuse.org) was redesigned a few months back to make it more
like your 'easy'..
the typical forum user wants the jumble of info as it is today.. 
1 Jul
1 Jul
2:44 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Why I wont use the forums
[sent later]
On 2010-06-29 21:52, Jim Henderson wrote:
I don't recall seeing it. Hovering the mouse pointer over the names do not show a
description in
thunderbird, so either the server doesn't send it or Th. doesn't use it. But I
have a foggy
recollection of seeing descriptions with leafnode.
--
Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R.
(from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" GM (Minas Tirith))
On Tue, 29 Jun 2010 09:57:35 +0200, Carlos E. R.
wrote:
Perhaps what
is needed is a read-only nntp group with quick help tips
such as what is appropriate on each forum/group, how to post, etc. I
think I saw some tips (I'm talking out of year-old memories) on the web
interface, but I don't see them on NNTP.
We try to make the names pretty self-descriptive; many newsreaders can
read a description field (it's optional in the RFC as I recall) that
gives a text description of the group. I don't know if the server we use
can present that, but I think it can.
7:37 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Why I wont use the forums
Carlos E. R. wrote:
[sent later]
On 2010-06-29 21:52, Jim Henderson wrote:
I don't recall seeing it. Hovering the mouse pointer over the names do not show a
description in
thunderbird, so either the server doesn't send it or Th. doesn't use it. But I
have a foggy
recollection of seeing descriptions with leafnode.
perhaps that info could be incorporated into the info at
http://en.opensuse.org/Communicate with the same level of detail as is
provided for say Mailing List, IRC etc.. ??
for example, maybe something like the following with one for each
forum/sub:
------sample--------
Install/Boot/Login - Questions about installation, login, boot issues,
partitioning, file systems, software that runs at boot (GRUB, LILO,
boot scripts). Join us via HTTP at [link] or via NNTP at [link].
------end sample--------
since the descriptive words are found at the top of the first page of
each form, populating an info set similar to that available for ML is
mostly just a matter of copy/paste..
HOWEVER i do not see that that /Communicate page is slated for
movement to the new wiki.... ???
DenverD
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On Tue, 29 Jun 2010 09:57:35 +0200, Carlos E. R.
wrote:
Perhaps
what is needed is a read-only nntp group with quick help tips
such as what is appropriate on each forum/group, how to post, etc. I
think I saw some tips (I'm talking out of year-old memories) on the web
interface, but I don't see them on NNTP.
We try to make the names pretty
self-descriptive; many newsreaders can
read a description field (it's optional in the RFC as I recall) that
gives a text description of the group. I don't know if the server we use
can present that, but I think it can. 
2 Jul
2 Jul
2:36 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Why I wont use the forums
On Thursday 01 July 2010 19:37:03 DenverD wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
In the mailing list section, there are only two mailing lists - out of 30+
- mentioned. If you want to add one or two subs to the list, fine - but if
you want to list all of them, I propose to have a separate Page in the wiki
with detailed contents. Let's keep the Communicate page short with good
pointers.
[sent later]
On 2010-06-29 21:52, Jim Henderson wrote:
perhaps that info could be incorporated into the info at
http://en.opensuse.org/Communicate with the same level of detail as is
provided for say Mailing List, IRC etc.. ??
for example, maybe something like the following with one for each
forum/sub:
------sample--------
Install/Boot/Login - Questions about installation, login, boot issues,
partitioning, file systems, software that runs at boot (GRUB, LILO,
boot scripts). Join us via HTTP at [link] or via NNTP at [link].
------end sample--------
since the descriptive words are found at the top of the first page of
each form, populating an info set similar to that available for ML is
mostly just a matter of copy/paste.. On Tue, 29 Jun 2010 09:57:35 +0200, Carlos E. R.
wrote:
I don't recall seeing it. Hovering the mouse pointer over the names do
not show a description in thunderbird, so either the server doesn't
send it or Th. doesn't use it. But I have a foggy recollection of
seeing descriptions with leafnode. Perhaps what is needed is a read-only nntp group
with quick help
tips such as what is appropriate on each forum/group, how to post,
etc. I think I saw some tips (I'm talking out of year-old memories)
on the web interface, but I don't see them on NNTP.
We try to make the names pretty self-descriptive; many newsreaders
can read a description field (it's optional in the RFC as I recall)
that gives a text description of the group. I don't know if the
server we use can present that, but I think it can. HOWEVER i do not see that that /Communicate page is
slated for
movement to the new wiki.... ???
It is, please check again,
Andreas
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1 Jul
1 Jul
7:49 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Why I wont use the forums
On Thu, 01 Jul 2010 14:44:18 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
[sent later]
On 2010-06-29 21:52, Jim Henderson wrote:
I don't recall seeing it. Hovering the mouse pointer over the names do
not show a description in thunderbird, so either the server doesn't send
it or Th. doesn't use it. But I have a foggy recollection of seeing
descriptions with leafnode.
What I meant was I don't know if the feature is enabled - if it is, there
may not be descriptions filled in, and that's something we might be able
to do.
Jim
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On Tue, 29 Jun 2010 09:57:35 +0200, Carlos E. R.
wrote:
Perhaps
what is needed is a read-only nntp group with quick help tips
such as what is appropriate on each forum/group, how to post, etc. I
think I saw some tips (I'm talking out of year-old memories) on the
web interface, but I don't see them on NNTP.
We try to make the names pretty self-descriptive; many newsreaders can
read a description field (it's optional in the RFC as I recall) that
gives a text description of the group. I don't know if the server we
use can present that, but I think it can. 
3 Jul
3 Jul
12:30 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Why I wont use the forums
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
On 2010-07-01 19:49, Jim Henderson wrote:
Ah.
Anyway, I was going to try leafnode, when I discovered that 11.2 doesn't have it, they
dropped it
from the distro. Anybody knows why?
The thing is, it can write a very verbose log of the transaction, and if the descriptions
exist,
they are written there. But I can't try with 11.2 - I think I have it in my old 11.0.
- --
Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R.
(from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" GM (Elessar))
On Thu, 01 Jul 2010 14:44:18 +0200, Carlos E. R.
wrote:
[descriptions]
I don't
recall seeing it. Hovering the mouse pointer over the names do
not show a description in thunderbird, so either the server doesn't send
it or Th. doesn't use it. But I have a foggy recollection of seeing
descriptions with leafnode.
What I meant was I don't know if the feature is enabled - if it is, there
may not be descriptions filled in, and that's something we might be able
to do. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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1:55 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Why I wont use the forums
On Saturday 03 July 2010 05:30:02 Carlos E. R. wrote:
...
Anyway, I was going to try leafnode, when I discovered
that 11.2 doesn't
have it, they dropped it from the distro. Anybody knows why?
Lack of user interest, or lack of volunteers to package it.
There is one in:
http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/home:/davjam79:/console/openSUSE_…
davjam79 is David Bolt, that you should know from alt.os.linux.suse
It is leafnode-1.11.8rc1-6.1.i586.rpm .
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2 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Why I wont use the forums
On Saturday 2010-07-03 13:55, Rajko M. wrote:
On Saturday 03 July 2010 05:30:02 Carlos E. R. wrote:
...
Can I advertise to you re-alpine? ;-)
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Anyway, I was going to try leafnode, when I
discovered that 11.2 doesn't
have it, they dropped it from the distro. Anybody knows why?
Lack of user interest, or lack of volunteers to package it.
There is one in:
http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/home:/davjam79:/console/openSUSE_…
davjam79 is David Bolt, that you should know from alt.os.linux.suse
It is leafnode-1.11.8rc1-6.1.i586.rpm .
2:09 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Why I wont use the forums
On Saturday 03 July 2010 07:00:30 Jan Engelhardt wrote:
...
Can I advertise to you re-alpine? ;-)
If you would be a bit more verbose what re-alpine is.
(advertiser give more info without being asked for :)
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2:41 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Why I wont use the forums
On Saturday 2010-07-03 14:09, Rajko M. wrote:
On Saturday 03 July 2010 07:00:30 Jan Engelhardt
wrote:
...
An Ncurses MUA with NNTP capabilities.
(
http://jftp.medozas.de/SUSE-11.2/x86_64/re-alpine-2.01+git42-jen0.x86_64.rpm
)
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Can I advertise to you re-alpine? ;-)
If you would be a bit more verbose what re-alpine is.
3:50 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Why I wont use the forums
On Saturday 03 July 2010 07:41:58 Jan Engelhardt wrote:
On Saturday 2010-07-03 14:09, Rajko M. wrote:
Thanks.
It is listed now in http://wiki.opensuse.org/Newsgroups_reader_software
with link to your download page.
I got to find somebody to rewrite that article and
http://wiki.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Usenet
There is no much to transfer from http://en.opensuse.org/Communicate/Usenet .
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On Saturday 03 July 2010 07:00:30 Jan Engelhardt
wrote:
...
An Ncurses MUA with NNTP capabilities.
(
http://jftp.medozas.de/SUSE-11.2/x86_64/re-alpine-2.01+git42-jen0.x86_64.rp
m ) Can I advertise to you re-alpine? ;-)
If you would be a bit more verbose what re-alpine is.
5 Jul
5 Jul
2:13 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Why I wont use the forums
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256
On 2010-07-03 14:09, Rajko M. wrote:
On Saturday 03 July 2010 07:00:30 Jan Engelhardt
wrote:
...
It is the new version of Alpine, which was the new version of Pine.
Pine is (was) a powerful text mail and news client program (MUA), developed by the
University of
Washington, with a license that was not completely open. It was included in the distro. A
few years
ago the opened the license (Apache license), did a large overhaul with nice needed
features (like
UTF8 support), named it as "Alpine", then dropped it from development
completely. They even fired
some or all of the core staff that developed that and other things.
Re-alpine is the new project, hosted at sourceforge if I recall correctly, that has taken
over from
that point. They have some of the original devs as advisors, not devs. I haven't
tested it (yet).
11.3 has Alpine, not re-alpine.
- --
Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R.
(from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" GM (Minas Tirith))
Can I advertise to you re-alpine? ;-)
If you would be a bit more verbose what re-alpine is. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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2:17 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Why I wont use the forums
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256
On 2010-07-03 13:55, Rajko M. wrote:
On Saturday 03 July 2010 05:30:02 Carlos E. R. wrote:
...
I saw it, yes, But being a home project... I don't install without knowing more. Then
webpin stopped
working.
Anyway, I was going to try leafnode, when I
discovered that 11.2 doesn't
have it, they dropped it from the distro. Anybody knows why?
Lack of user interest, or lack of volunteers to package it.
There is one in:
http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/home:/davjam79:/console/openSUSE_… davjam79 is David Bolt, that you should know from
alt.os.linux.suse
I know him, IRC.
It is leafnode-1.11.8rc1-6.1.i586.rpm .
I was thinking of downloading and compiling it myself, time permitting :-)
- --
Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R.
(from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" GM (Minas Tirith))
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5:53 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Why I wont use the forums
On Monday 05 July 2010 07:17:22 Carlos E. R. wrote:
I saw it, yes, But being a home project... I don't
install without knowing
more. Then webpin stopped working.
You can ask David what is status of that project.
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6 Jul
6 Jul
10:55 a.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Why I wont use the forums
Le samedi 03 juillet 2010, à 06:55 -0500, Rajko M. a écrit :
On Saturday 03 July 2010 05:30:02 Carlos E. R. wrote:
...
Maybe David would be interested in maintaining this package in the main
openSUSE repository? (I don't know him)
Vincent
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Anyway, I was going to try leafnode, when I
discovered that 11.2 doesn't
have it, they dropped it from the distro. Anybody knows why?
Lack of user interest, or lack of volunteers to package it.
There is one in:
http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/home:/davjam79:/console/openSUSE_…
davjam79 is David Bolt, that you should know from alt.os.linux.suse
26 Jun
26 Jun
8:44 a.m.
Stephan Kleine wrote:
[SNIP] So, to make it short: Can you, the forum
admins, please agree that introducing
some subforums for specific topics makes it much easier to find "interesting"
posts for the "contributor" / "dev" so those would be more inclined
to get
involved and can we please get some list together of "interesting" topics so
those get realized?
Point simply being adding some subforum doesn't cost a single $ but makes it
much easier to find - personally - "interesting" topics so one gets more
inclined to get involved.
From my personal POV I would be delighted to see:
1. a "security" one for stuff like apparmor, selinux, ssl with certificates,
general server hardening and so on
2. a "server" one for stuff like apache, php, samba, XEN, KVM, general
virtualization and so on.
[SNIP]
a workaround until the fora can be shuffled to make it easy to find
personally interesting topics might be to try Google, it is a friend
and costs are lower than shuffling the forums..
anyway, and unfortunately, we cannot count on the Redmond Ship Jumpers
(RSJs) to know enough about what is going on to post into the correct
forum once reshuffled..
so, interested in security? pick and click/copy-paste what you are
personally interested in, general or specific:
SECURITY in general: http://tinyurl.com/2wzd6qb or
http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Aforums.opensuse.org+apparmor+OR+selin…
apparmor only: http://tinyurl.com/33zw3zv or
http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Aforums.opensuse.org+help+OR+problem+O…
selinux only: http://tinyurl.com/39nxajc or
http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Aforums.opensuse.org+help+OR+problem+O…
ssl certificate only: http://tinyurl.com/3xtel8y or
http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Aforums.opensuse.org+help+OR+problem+O…
server hardening only: http://tinyurl.com/39mtm7g or
http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Aforums.opensuse.org+help+OR+problem+O…
or SERVER, general or specific:
server (general): http://tinyurl.com/3yn69bn or
http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Aforums.opensuse.org+server+AND+apache…
apache only: http://tinyurl.com/364zl2m or
http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Aforums.opensuse.org+help+OR+problem+O…
php only: http://tinyurl.com/23hy8gt or
http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Aforums.opensuse.org+help+OR+problem+O…
samba only: http://tinyurl.com/24aba6y or
http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Aforums.opensuse.org+help+OR+problem+O…
XEN only: http://tinyurl.com/2agjfdy or
http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Aforums.opensuse.org+help+OR+problem+O…
KVM only: http://tinyurl.com/2857cdt or
http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Aforums.opensuse.org+help+OR+problem+O…
virturalization/virtual machine/VM only: http://tinyurl.com/33mpfv9
http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Aforums.opensuse.org+help+OR+problem+O…
NOTE: the above will return all finds, without limit by date...but any
can narrowed in time using "Advanced Search" to past 24 hours, day,
week, month, year.
NOTE 2: it is a fact that the RSJs are likely to spell (say)
"apparmor" in a dizzying number of variations which Google will NOT find.
NOTE 3: individuals here may elect to interact directly with Google to
form other, more suitable, search strings without my help...however,
if others here are waiting for an easy way to find what they are
interested in in the fora, just let your needs be known and i'll try
to help you also erase that "too hard to find" excuse.
Forum Talker
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12:12 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Communication concepts was:Why I wont use the forums
On Saturday 26 June 2010 01:44:23 DenverD wrote:
anyway, and unfortunately, we cannot count on the
Redmond Ship Jumpers
(RSJs) to know enough about what is going on to post into the correct
forum once reshuffled..
The problem is not limited to RSJs.
Web is a really big place; you stumble on interesting link and bookmark it.
When someone finds interesting to shuffle content on his server, it will make
your bookmark invalid, effectively erasing himself from your computer. The
competitors for web visitor attention will greet the guy that came on such
idea.
Did I mentioned that changing URLs and making dead links is considered, by any
article that I ever read about the web, as a very bad idea.
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27 Jun
27 Jun
5:15 p.m.
On Sat, 26 Jun 2010 02:11:47 +0200, Stephan Kleine
<bitdealer(a)gmail.com> wrote:
makes it much easier to find "interesting"
posts for the "contributor"
/ "dev" so those would be more inclined to get
involved
IMO you will never get developers to participate in web forums.
Philipp
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9:48 p.m.
On Sunday 27 June 2010 10:15:22 Philipp Thomas wrote:
IMO you will never get developers to participate in
web forums.
How this sounds to those that are occasionally there? :)
On a flip side you are right.
Web forums are for people that have time to use interface that is filled with
layout gimmicks, and not exactly easy to read, but NNTP access helps a lot in
this respect.
NNTP access + good client software is actually at least equally efficient as
email, with additional benefit that you can post-moderate messages.
When you have ability to remove spam from the server and move displaced
messages to proper channel, there is no need for extra measures to prevent
spam.
I guess that mail lists are just what people are used to, not what is better.
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10:09 p.m.
Le 27/06/2010 21:48, Rajko M. a écrit :
I guess that mail lists are just what people are used to, not what is better.
news are good when you have a broadband permanent access. When you
have only a 33.6 modem, mail is much better/cheaper
jdd
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10:12 p.m.
On Sunday 2010-06-27 22:09, jdd wrote:
Even with broadband, having the forums loose on unneeded HTML and
gimmicks would be a win.
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I guess that mail lists are just what people are used to, not what is better.
news are good when you have a broadband permanent access. When you
have only a 33.6 modem, mail is much better/cheaper
11:14 p.m.
On Sunday 27 June 2010 15:12:11 Jan Engelhardt wrote:
On Sunday 2010-06-27 22:09, jdd wrote:
>> I guess that mail lists are just what people are used to, not what is
>> better.
>
>news are good when you have a broadband permanent access. When you
>have only a 33.6 modem, mail is much better/cheaper
@ jdd
With free leafnode server that can receive all news articles, you have offline
reading,like emails, but then you have to take care to move and remove
articles repeating what forum admins already did.
Even with broadband, having the forums loose on
unneeded HTML and
gimmicks would be a win.
It is a win.
Those that complain loud never seriously tried that way.
I was for years using Novell forums, but in all those years I tried only once
web interface. At that time web interface was there for serious support, so it
did no have much of visual gimmicks, but it was slower to load, relative small
input fields and I did not use it.
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11:28 p.m.
Le 27/06/2010 23:14, Rajko M. a écrit :
web interface.
web interface allow editing the posts. As I do lot of typo, it's very
valuable for me :-(
jdd
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28 Jun
28 Jun
6:43 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Why I wont use the forums
On Sun, 27 Jun 2010 23:28:08 +0200, jdd wrote:
Le 27/06/2010 23:14, Rajko M. a écrit :
You must have a similar problem with using the mail lists, then, no?
(I don't mean this as an attack of any sort, just trying to understand if
this is an issue for you with NNTP access vs. web forums, why it isn't
with mailing lists)
Jim
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web interface.
web interface allow editing the posts. As I do lot of typo, it's very
valuable for me :-(
7:27 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Why I wont use the forums
Le 28/06/2010 18:43, Jim Henderson a écrit :
On Sun, 27 Jun 2010 23:28:08 +0200, jdd wrote:
yes, but lists are more "disposable" medium. If a discussion give a
result, this result is not intended to be seen through the archives,
but written on the wiki. so errors are less important
a web forum is an archive by itself
jdd
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Le 27/06/2010 23:14, Rajko M. a écrit :
You must have a similar problem with using the mail lists, then, no? web interface.
web interface allow editing the posts. As I do lot of typo, it's very
valuable for me :-(
10:51 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Why I wont use the forums
On Mon, 28 Jun 2010 19:27:18 +0200, jdd wrote:
Le 28/06/2010 18:43, Jim Henderson a écrit :
True - I never thought of it that way, because ML archives tend to be
utilised (at least on other MLs that I tend to use) - do others here also
consider the MLs more of a disposable medium?
Jim
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On Sun, 27 Jun 2010 23:28:08 +0200, jdd wrote:
yes, but lists are more "disposable" medium. If a discussion give a
result, this result is not intended to be seen through the archives, but
written on the wiki. so errors are less important
a web forum is an archive by itself
jdd Le 27/06/2010 23:14, Rajko M. a écrit :
You must have a similar problem with using the mail lists, then, no? web interface.
web interface allow editing the posts. As I do lot of typo, it's very
valuable for me :-( 
11:12 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Why I wont use the forums
On 28/06/10 21:51, Jim Henderson wrote:
[...]
True - I never thought of it that way, because ML archives tend to be
utilised (at least on other MLs that I tend to use) - do others here also
consider the MLs more of a disposable medium?
Certainly not.
Thomas
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29 Jun
29 Jun
1:23 a.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Why I wont use the forums
On Mon, 28 Jun 2010 22:12:07 +0100, Thomas Hertweck wrote:
On 28/06/10 21:51, Jim Henderson wrote:
Thanks, Dave, Carlos, Thomas - that is in line with what I see on other
MLs.
Jim
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[...]
True - I never thought of it that way, because ML archives tend to be
utilised (at least on other MLs that I tend to use) - do others here
also consider the MLs more of a disposable medium?
Certainly not.
Thomas 
12:09 a.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Why I wont use the forums
Hello,
On Mon, 28 Jun 2010, Jim Henderson wrote:
On Mon, 28 Jun 2010 19:27:18 +0200, jdd wrote:
> a web forum is an archive by itself
There's the list archives.
True - I never thought of it that way, because ML
archives tend to be
utilised (at least on other MLs that I tend to use) - do others here also
consider the MLs more of a disposable medium?
Absolutely not. I have a full archive of the lists I read.
-dnh
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12:49 a.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Why I wont use the forums
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
On 2010-06-28 22:51, Jim Henderson wrote:
No. There is the web archive; plus some people, like me, keep local copies, of several
years.
NNTP can also be considered an archive in itself. Plus a distributed one.
- --
Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R.
(from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" GM (Elessar))
On Mon, 28 Jun 2010 19:27:18 +0200, jdd wrote:
yes, but lists
are more "disposable" medium. If a discussion give a
result, this result is not intended to be seen through the archives, but
written on the wiki. so errors are less important
a web forum is an archive by itself
True - I never thought of it that way, because ML archives tend to be
utilised (at least on other MLs that I tend to use) - do others here also
consider the MLs more of a disposable medium? -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (GNU/Linux)
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2A8An0qaY5x7O3aOvJcju37zXEwTPFCO
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28 Jun
28 Jun
6:41 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Why I wont use the forums
On Sun, 27 Jun 2010 22:12:11 +0200, Jan Engelhardt wrote:
On Sunday 2010-06-27 22:09, jdd wrote:
Even with broadband, having the forums loose on unneeded HTML and
gimmicks would be a win.
The NNTP side is plaintext - you can connect a newsreader (and I know
some mail clients - Thunderbird, Evolution, and I think KMail) to
forums.novell.com and see how the forums look that way.
Jim
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I guess that mail lists are just what people are used to, not what is
better.
news are good when you have a broadband permanent access. When you have
only a 33.6 modem, mail is much better/cheaper
7:10 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Why I wont use the forums
Jim Henderson wrote:
On Sun, 27 Jun 2010 22:12:11 +0200, Jan Engelhardt
wrote:
The NNTP access actually works very well (I'm not surprised, but it's
worth saying) - the one thing I find a little unnerving is lack of
email address and a sender name. Given the amount of traffic, the
structure is not bad as such, but certainly not easily mapped on to the
ML structure.
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On Sunday 2010-06-27 22:09, jdd wrote:
Even with broadband, having the forums loose on unneeded HTML and
gimmicks would be a win.
The NNTP side is plaintext - you can connect a newsreader (and I know
some mail clients - Thunderbird, Evolution, and I think KMail) to
forums.novell.com and see how the forums look that way.
I guess that mail lists are just what people are used to, not what
is better.
news are good when you have a broadband permanent access. When you
have only a 33.6 modem, mail is much better/cheaper 
7:19 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Why I wont use the forums
On Mon, 28 Jun 2010 19:10:15 +0200
Per Jessen <per(a)opensuse.org> wrote:
Hi
The format is <openSUSE forum login name>(a)<no-mx.forums.opensuse.org>
so it's munged, this will then reference back to you actual account so
you don't show up as Guest on the web side.
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The NNTP side is plaintext - you can connect a newsreader (and I
know some mail clients - Thunderbird, Evolution, and I think KMail)
to forums.novell.com and see how the forums look that way.
The NNTP access actually works very well (I'm not surprised, but it's
worth saying) - the one thing I find a little unnerving is lack of
email address and a sender name. Given the amount of traffic, the
structure is not bad as such, but certainly not easily mapped on to
the ML structure.
8:37 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Why I wont use the forums
Malcolm wrote:
On Mon, 28 Jun 2010 19:10:15 +0200
Per Jessen <per(a)opensuse.org> wrote:
Hi
The format is <openSUSE forum login name>(a)<no-mx.forums.opensuse.org>
Oh I understand that, but that's still "lack of an email address and a
name" to me when I read the posting.
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The NNTP side is plaintext - you can connect a newsreader (and I
know some mail clients - Thunderbird, Evolution, and I think KMail)
to forums.novell.com and see how the forums look that way.
The NNTP access actually works very well (I'm not surprised, but it's
worth saying) - the one thing I find a little unnerving is lack of
email address and a sender name. Given the amount of traffic, the
structure is not bad as such, but certainly not easily mapped on to
the ML structure.
29 Jun
29 Jun
1:07 a.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Why I wont use the forums
On 2010-06-28 19:19, Malcolm wrote:
On Mon, 28 Jun 2010 19:10:15 +0200
Per Jessen <> wrote:
Hi
The format is <openSUSE forum login name>(a)<no-mx.forums.opensuse.org>
so it's munged, this will then reference back to you actual account so
you don't show up as Guest on the web side.
And what is the expected format for people using only nntp without a forum name? I see
that some,
like Per, use their openSUSE addresses. To me, it feels strange seeing so many people
using aliases
instead of real (or apparently real) names.
Traditionally, on NNTP you could fake an address like "real like name"
<name(a)fake.domain>in>, which
served to deter spam.
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1:27 a.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Why I wont use the forums
On Tue, 29 Jun 2010 01:07:53 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2010-06-28 19:19, Malcolm wrote:
A legal e-mail address at the minimum. Some people use pseudonyms, some
use real names, some use fake e-mail addresses, some use real ones.
It's typical to not use a real e-mail address because spammers tend to
harvest e-mail addresses from newsgroups. Even gmane munges e-mail
addresses - even in the message body text.
On Mon, 28 Jun 2010 19:10:15 +0200
Per Jessen <> wrote:
Hi
The format is <openSUSE forum login name>(a)<no-mx.forums.opensuse.org>
so it's munged, this will then reference back to you actual account so
you don't show up as Guest on the web side.
And what is the expected format for people using only nntp without a
forum name? I see that some, like Per, use their openSUSE addresses. To
me, it feels strange seeing so many people using aliases instead of real
(or apparently real) names. Traditionally, on NNTP you could fake an address like
"real like name"
<http://objects.povworld.org/links10.html@public.gmane.org>, which
served to deter spam.
Do you see the quoted address here as an address at public.gmane.org (the
user portion is name-BxgFnWKfcnbUF6G2QusZNg ) - I'm not sure what your
original was (or if that was the original), but I know gmane munges it.
I see myself on gmane as hendersj-[random character string] at
public.gmane.org instead of my gmail.com e-mail address.
Jim
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10:15 a.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Why I wont use the forums
[sent later]
On 2010-06-29 01:27, Jim Henderson wrote:
On Tue, 29 Jun 2010 01:07:53 +0200, Carlos E. R.
wrote:
Yes, using a non real address makes sense. But having the common name (user part?) posted
as an
alias looks strange to me.
And what is the expected format for people using
only nntp without a
forum name? I see that some, like Per, use their openSUSE addresses. To
me, it feels strange seeing so many people using aliases instead of real
(or apparently real) names.
A legal e-mail address at the minimum. Some people use pseudonyms, some
use real names, some use fake e-mail addresses, some use real ones.
It's typical to not use a real e-mail address because spammers tend to
harvest e-mail addresses from newsgroups. Even gmane munges e-mail
addresses - even in the message body text. > Traditionally, on NNTP you could fake an address
like "real like name"
> <http://objects.povworld.org/links10.html@public.gmane.org>, which
> served to deter spam.
Hey! I did not write that! :-)
I wrote "name (at) fake dot domain". I hope it doesn't get munged for you
again, it lost all its
meaning.
Do you see the quoted address here as an address at
public.gmane.org (the
user portion is name-BxgFnWKfcnbUF6G2QusZNg ) - I'm not sure what your
original was (or if that was the original), but I know gmane munges it.
Yep. And I think it got re-munged when you posted back.
I see myself on gmane as hendersj-[random character
string] at
public.gmane.org instead of my gmail.com e-mail address.
It makes sense to me.
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9:56 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Why I wont use the forums
On Tue, 29 Jun 2010 10:15:19 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
We see that on the MLs quite frequently as well - I have noted several
people who post with a nickname rather than a full name: DenverD, jdd,
JB2, are a few who come to mind.
But yes, it is more typical for people to use a full real name (or at
least a first name) in e-mail.
And I actually didn't mean to include the http:// URL in there either -
whoops. :-) But yeah, gmane does that munging even on message texts.
Yep.
Jim
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It's
typical to not use a real e-mail address because spammers tend to
harvest e-mail addresses from newsgroups. Even gmane munges e-mail
addresses - even in the message body text.
Yes, using a non real address makes sense. But having the common name
(user part?) posted as an alias looks strange to me. >> Traditionally, on NNTP you could fake an
address like "real like name"
>> <http://objects.povworld.org/links10.html-
XMD5yJDbdMReXY1tMh2IBg(a)public.gmane.org>gt;,
> which
served to deter spam.
Hey! I did not write that! :-) I wrote "name (at) fake dot domain". I hope
it doesn't get munged for
you again, it lost all its meaning.
It came through fine that way - gmane just looks at addresses in the form
of a(a)b.TLD (I wonder what *that* will look like).
Do you see the
quoted address here as an address at public.gmane.org
(the user portion is name-BxgFnWKfcnbUF6G2QusZNg ) - I'm not sure what
your original was (or if that was the original), but I know gmane
munges it.
Yep. And I think it got re-munged when you posted back.
12:52 a.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Why I wont use the forums
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
On 2010-06-28 19:10, Per Jessen wrote:
I don't think so.
Gmame does a bidirectional NNTP connection to the mail list, so it is possible.
- --
Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R.
(from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" GM (Elessar))
Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Sun, 27 Jun 2010 22:12:11 +0200, Jan Engelhardt wrote:
The NNTP side
is plaintext - you can connect a newsreader (and I know
some mail clients - Thunderbird, Evolution, and I think KMail) to
forums.novell.com and see how the forums look that way.
The NNTP access actually works very well (I'm not surprised, but it's
worth saying) - the one thing I find a little unnerving is lack of
email address and a sender name. Given the amount of traffic, the
structure is not bad as such, but certainly not easily mapped on to the
ML structure. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/
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4i0Anitksd/VkpdNPd1HXStcQqM7ywtZ
=stHq
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
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7:40 a.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Why I wont use the forums
Carlos E. R. wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
On 2010-06-28 19:10, Per Jessen wrote:
I don't think so.
Gmame does a bidirectional NNTP connection to the mail list, so it is
possible.
Yep, I do that too with all my mailing lists.
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Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Sun, 27 Jun 2010 22:12:11 +0200, Jan Engelhardt wrote:
The NNTP
side is plaintext - you can connect a newsreader (and I
know some mail clients - Thunderbird, Evolution, and I think KMail)
to forums.novell.com and see how the forums look that way.
The NNTP access actually works very well (I'm not surprised, but it's
worth saying) - the one thing I find a little unnerving is lack of
email address and a sender name. Given the amount of traffic, the
structure is not bad as such, but certainly not easily mapped on to
the ML structure.
28 Jun
28 Jun
1:25 a.m.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
On 2010-06-27 22:09, jdd wrote:
Le 27/06/2010 21:48, Rajko M. a écrit :
Not so.
NNTP is old, it was used many years ago with worse communications than we have today. The
trick was
to download the groups for offline reading, disconnect, reply, connect again and upload
your
replies. This could be done with some clients, but in linux we could use
"leafnode", a small NNTP
server designed for this purpose.
- --
Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R.
(from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" GM (Elessar))
I guess that mail lists are just what people are used to, not what is better.
news are good when you have a broadband permanent access. When you
have only a 33.6 modem, mail is much better/cheaper -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/
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7:32 a.m.
Rajko M. wrote:
On Sunday 27 June 2010 10:15:22 Philipp Thomas wrote:
They're also for people who only follow maybe three or four such fora.
IMO you will never get developers to participate
in web forums.
How this sounds to those that are occasionally there? :)
On a flip side you are right.
Web forums are for people that have time to use interface that is
filled with layout gimmicks, and not exactly easy to read, NNTP access + good client software is actually at
least equally
efficient as email, with additional benefit that you can post-moderate
messages. When you have ability to remove spam from the server and
move displaced messages to proper channel, there is no need for extra
measures to prevent spam.
I guess that mail lists are just what people are used to, not what is
better.
Let's not start that one.
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10:39 a.m.
On Monday 28 June 2010 00:32:31 Per Jessen wrote:
Why not?
It is not talk about what someone likes, but it is about choosing between
medium that was not created for open communication (email) and one that was
(usenet).
Email works fine for groups that want to keep their communication off limits.
All other stuff we have in play to make email lists open are just poor
replacements for NNTP functionality.
- You have to subscribe to read the messages. I don't consider email archives
as substitute, as you can't simply press the button and reply. It is hard to
even refer to some earlier message on the list, unlike NNTP.
- You have to download messages before you can decide by the topic to read or
not. Even automatic filtering happens when messages are already on your
computer.
- You can't move message to appropriate group
Socially, mail lists are good to reinforce feeling of inner circle, which is
exactly opposite from few times stated openSUSE goals.
Usenet (NNTP) was always designed for the number of groups.
The only problem that Usenet has is intentional openness, very much misused by
spammers. I got no such problems on Novell forums, with all other advantages
over email list:
- No cumbersome subscription process, choose server and group and you can read
- You can read any message
- You can easily answer it
- It downloads only headers so you can discard messages before download
- Messages are stored on server; if you can access server you can read all
messages from anywhere (no imap, private server, and what not)
- It has powerful filtering based on header info
- It is easy to refer to another post; you give subject, another user will
copy and paste in a search field, and post will pop up. Try that with email.
- it is post publishing moderated, so posts that don't fit are either moved or
removed
If we want openness, then we should not patch email service to allow what
forums via NNTP had since ever, but use forums. It is simple to setup and use.
Content of forums as reason not to read them is more sign that someone needs
touch of isolation and exclusivity, that mail lists provide, despite all
efforts to make them open. In case of openSUSE forums where moderators are
doing fine job, complaining on content is lousy excuse. It is exactly what we
make it.
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I guess that
mail lists are just what people are used to, not what is
better.
Let's not start that one.
11:02 a.m.
Le 28/06/2010 10:39, Rajko M. a écrit :
medium that was not created for open communication
(email) and one that was
(usenet).
good start for a troll :-))
all this is only matter of taste... I often use both *for the same
list*. It's easier to archive mails and easier to read old posts in
news...
jdd
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11:20 a.m.
Rajko M. wrote:
On Monday 28 June 2010 00:32:31 Per Jessen wrote:
Why not?
It is not talk about what someone likes, but it is about choosing
between medium that was not created for open communication (email) and
one that was (usenet).
Sorry, I thought you were discussing mailing lists vs webfora.
[snip - big discussion of nntp, usenet and email]
I guess
that mail lists are just what people are used to, not what
is better.
Let's not start that one. Socially, mail lists are good to reinforce feeling of
inner circle,
which is exactly opposite from few times stated openSUSE goals.
Whether or not they are good for that purpose is irrelevant as long as
we don't use them for it. I don't think mailing lists automatically
reinforce some or other idea of an inner circle. (inner circles
usually don't have thousands of members).
If we want openness, then we should not patch email
service to allow
what forums via NNTP had since ever, but use forums. It is simple to
setup and use.
Rajko, I'm not sure I quite understand what you're saying here, but if
you're promoting webfora, I strongly disagree.
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6:47 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Why I wont use the forums
On Mon, 28 Jun 2010 11:20:24 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:
Rajko M. wrote:
I think we need to be clearer that we're not talking about two
communications mediums here, but three.
1. Web Forums: forums.opensuse.org:80 - HTML/BBCode interface with a
fair amount of 'gimmicks'.
2. NNTP Newsgroups: forums.opensuse.org:119 - uses the older NNTP
protocol, is provided through a gateway to the web forums, but is
otherwise completely separate, just hosted on the same machine as the web
forums.
3. Mailing Lists: Shouldn't need any explanation, given that's where
this discussion is taking place. :-)
We bridge #1 and #2 (but not to USENET, it's a private NNTP server in
that regard). Much the same way that the MLs are bridged to NNTP through
gmane.org (which is how I access them).
Jim
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On Monday 28 June 2010 00:32:31 Per Jessen
wrote:
Why not?
It is not talk about what someone likes, but it is about choosing
between medium that was not created for open communication (email) and
one that was (usenet).
Sorry, I thought you were discussing mailing lists vs webfora.
[snip - big discussion of nntp, usenet and email]
I guess
that mail lists are just what people are used to, not what
is better.
Let's not start that one. Socially, mail lists are good to reinforce
feeling of inner circle,
which is exactly opposite from few times stated openSUSE goals.
Whether or not they are good for that purpose is irrelevant as long as
we don't use them for it. I don't think mailing lists automatically
reinforce some or other idea of an inner circle. (inner circles usually
don't have thousands of members).
If we want openness, then we should not patch
email service to allow
what forums via NNTP had since ever, but use forums. It is simple to
setup and use.
Rajko, I'm not sure I quite understand what you're saying here, but if
you're promoting webfora, I strongly disagree.
29 Jun
29 Jun
1:26 a.m.
On 2010-06-28 10:39, Rajko M. wrote:
On Monday 28 June 2010 00:32:31 Per Jessen wrote:
Why not?
:-)
There are technical reasons, and there are personal tastes. Then we (each person) chooses.
:-)
[mail]
I guess
that mail lists are just what people are used to, not what is
better.
Let's not start that one. - You have to subscribe to read the messages. I
don't consider email archives
as substitute, as you can't simply press the button and reply. It is hard to
even refer to some earlier message on the list, unlike NNTP.
NNTP can require login/pass to post. If wanted. But once you subscribe to it, you can add
new groups
(or remove them) with a mouse click.
- You can't move message to appropriate group
I'm not sure you can do that on NNTP?
Usenet (NNTP) was always designed for the number of
groups.
The only problem that Usenet has is intentional openness, very much misused by
spammers.
It can be restricted, too. Login/pass.
I got no such problems on Novell forums, with all
other advantages
over email list:
- No cumbersome subscription process, choose server and group and you can read
- You can read any message
- You can easily answer it
- It downloads only headers so you can discard messages before download
And you can download the contents for off-line reading. I did that this afternoon, at the
tremendous
speed of around 2..4 Kb/s. That's the problem of having only one server (as far as I
know). It took
about an hour or more for (I think) messages not older than 60 days - ie, not the entire
archive.
- Messages are stored on server; if you can access
server you can read all
messages from anywhere (no imap, private server, and what not)
- It has powerful filtering based on header info
It does not keep read tags across machines. I read my email on two machines using imap,
and both
keep in sync the read tags. I can't do that with NNTP, which is a problem for me.
- It is easy to refer to another post; you give
subject, another user will
copy and paste in a search field, and post will pop up. Try that with email.
- it is post publishing moderated, so posts that don't fit are either moved or
removed
On nntp too?
If we want openness, then we should not patch email
service to allow what
forums via NNTP had since ever, but use forums. It is simple to setup and use.
I don't like forums. Nntp is ok.
--
Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R.
(from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" GM (Elessar))
28 Jun
28 Jun
6:40 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Why I wont use the forums
On Sun, 27 Jun 2010 17:15:22 +0200, Philipp Thomas wrote:
On Sat, 26 Jun 2010 02:11:47 +0200, Stephan Kleine
<bitdealer(a)gmail.com> wrote:
In your opinion, why is this? Stephan asked for the discussion to stay
productive, so let's to drill down into what it is that you think is a
barrier and see what can be done to mitigate the barrier.
Jim
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makes it much easier to find
"interesting" posts for the "contributor" /
"dev" so those would be more inclined to get involved
IMO you will never get developers to participate in web forums.
3849
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58 comments
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participants (16)
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