[opensuse-project] Creating a group of conserned Users and Novell partners/longer life time for openSUSE... (LONG POST)

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[opensuse-project] ML creation for...

Boyd Lynn Gerber

14 Aug 2009 14 Aug '09

16:50

Hello, With the annoucement today. http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-announce/2009-08/msg00009.html that openSUSE is on a 18 month cycle, maybe we need to form a group... The thought is that a possible out come of this group maybe an openSLE which would be like this model fedora->centos->RHEL but for SUSE -SLES openSUSE->openSLE->SLE-| -SLED This is from the end of the project meeting. I hope the boat has not sailed already and it is too late. My thoughts from what I have heard from talks with clients, IRC chats, and misc. WARNING (This is my honest view/perception and is not politically correct) 1. Many small business owners/small companies feel there is a lack of attention to their needs from Novell. That is to say Novell only listens to "Monster Enterprise Clients" Solution: We form a group that combined has equivelant $$$ behind it to warrent attention. 2. Many resent replies from Novell people (although it is just their opinion) through the various mediums treat SMB's and their staff as idiots. It comes off as if it comes from arrogant 20-something know it alls dictating what the community has to do. To quote some CEO's and COO... "The SUSE/Novell people act like a bunch arrogant 20-something ... that treat us and are staff like idiots.) SMB's have to contribute more time/money/resources to keep openSUSE going. (Why should we when we are treated like idiots)? Solution: Better communitcation. Some signs of improvement, but a strong feeling of being dictated, rather than lead" 3. They are really concerned "OpenSUSE distro is moving toward just a desktop Ubunto clone. They are ignoreing what was there bigest strength. Providing a Polished First Class Stable Server with necessary Desktop fetures." Solution: This could be solved by openSLE (A openSUSE centos like clone as refered in the above example). 4. "Tired of hearing we do this for fun, it is not my problem/responsibility, hire a programmer or become one." "Fix it yourself as it is a community distro. The community is not doing enough or is too small." What happens is or feels like the various groups that are part of the community are not fully trusted. What I see/feel/hear is that globally the openSUSE distro is moving to the bottom of the Linux Distro Heap. I am being asked to move to CentOS as it has a longer support window. "Having to update my OS every 2 years is a real pain in the butt! Now it is moving to a 18 month window. I really need to look at something else that meets my needs" Business like to stay as long as they are able to the release. "If it aint broke don't fix it!" "We really need a fall back position. What are your recommendations? Doesn't Novell realize who pays their salaries? What about Ubunto, Debian, Fedora/CentOS, or Solaris, BSDs?" Solution: Have the openSUSE->openSLE->SLES/SLED path available. At some of the event I and others I talk with have attended it is often asked "Why doesn't Novell offer an opneSLE alternitive?" People using the fedora->CentOS->RHEL talk of how many of the business they support move this route to become RHEL customers. I think we (being the SUSE prefered" really would benefit from a similar path. That is why I am trying to somehow get a group organized. So we are able to have our voice heard at the higher levels of Novell. Thanks for reading this. I propose using the Freenode IRC #opensuse-server channel and either of the lists in the CC. to further discuss this idea and form a group. Thank you, -- Boyd Gerber 801 849-0213 ZENEZ 1042 East Fort Union #135, Midvale Utah 84047 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Show replies by date

alpha096＠virginbroadband.com.au

14 Aug 14 Aug

21:26

Boyd Lynn Gerber wrote:

...

Hello,

With the annoucement today.

http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-announce/2009-08/msg00009.html

that openSUSE is on a 18 month cycle, maybe we need to form a group...

The thought is that a possible out come of this group maybe an openSLE which would be like this model

fedora->centos->RHEL

but for SUSE -SLES openSUSE->openSLE->SLE-| -SLED

This is from the end of the project meeting. I hope the boat has not sailed already and it is too late. I am not quite sure about adding yet another trail of slightly different versions. I would be happy with the following, but for nothing, to gain more valuable media space that is under huge threat now We can also spin this a lot better for the commercial client.

...

My thoughts from what I have heard from talks with clients, IRC chats, and misc.

WARNING (This is my honest view/perception and is not politically correct)

1. Many small business owners/small companies feel there is a lack of attention to their needs from Novell. That is to say Novell only listens to "Monster Enterprise Clients"

Solution: We form a group that combined has equivelant $$$ behind it to warrent attention. An alternative solution, may be to gather those same $$$ into just fixing the bugs a commercial client reports themselves or via support and to put the screws on production to demand a higher quality output in the first instance together with everyone in development having only

openSLES-> SLED openSLED-> SLES I would believe from a distribution point, the original proposed increased versions would be; far greater in resources to maintain far greater from the development point to package and not intermix modules in various CPU dependant hardware would do nothing, with the exception of creating yet another buffer, for bugs to be found, before we offer the commercial product far greater in mastering, presentation and consumables mass confusion in a great deal of users, they are confused enough the current RC of opensuse.x installed on their PC with default login managers. It is so obvious that development do not use the product as we ship it OR spend the life with a command prompt on the screen and innumerable variations customised to the developer. Do this and we wont see half the bugs in ALPHA or BETA or RC or Commercial.

...

2. Many resent replies from Novell people (although it is just their opinion) through the various mediums treat SMB's and their staff as idiots. It comes off as if it comes from arrogant 20-something know it alls dictating what the community has to do. To quote some CEO's and COO... "The SUSE/Novell people act like a bunch arrogant 20-something ... that treat us and are staff like idiots.) SMB's have to contribute more time/money/resources to keep openSUSE going. (Why should we when we are treated like idiots)?

Solution: Better communitcation. Some signs of improvement, but a strong feeling of being dictated, rather than lead"

Solution: Perform!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. I have never read such a more true and accurate understanding of the Nature of Business at Novell.de and Suse.DE and its absolutely correct, however in this time of being Politically Correct, I am glad some one has actually articulated these words. This type of working culture starts at the top and works its way to the bottom - I suggest we fix the TOP! Do a search on Bugzilla for all bugs marked as WONTFIX and lay down the law that a developer does not have the ability to remove any functionality already in product, unless it compromises the Kernel or Resources. For every WONTFIX - The reason for this closure item must be written into the bug report in text and justified and each development manager MUST sign of on them Another solution would be to open 'Yast' and 'Gnome' 'Xorg' up for user bugs and Enhancements and FATE. It does not take a genius to work out that both of these areas are closed shops as bugs/enhancements to any of the above most often result in CLOSED/WONTFIX. Its not rocket science to do a simple search in theses areas.

...

3. They are really concerned "OpenSUSE distro is moving toward just a desktop Ubunto clone. They are ignoreing what was there bigest strength. Providing a Polished First Class Stable Server with necessary Desktop fetures."

Solution: This could be solved by openSLE (A openSUSE centos like clone as refered in the above example).

Solution. Release a products that is more included to work, this means lowering bugs and 'fixed bugs' directly out of development to ZERO With upper hundreds of number of bugs, we are NOT going to produce a "Providing a Polished First Class Stable Server with necessary Desktop features" The first Agenda Item for Project Managers Meetings, is static, its always BUGS/RFC/ETC.. Numbers, classifications, how many last week and how many this week, NO reduction? - FIX THE SITUATION and set targets! People are happy at the moment just to have a job!

...

4. "Tired of hearing we do this for fun, it is not my problem/responsibility, hire a programmer or become one." "Fix it yourself as it is a community distro. The community is not doing enough or is too small." What happens is or feels like the various groups that are part of the community are not fully trusted. What I see/feel/hear is that globally the openSUSE distro is moving to the bottom of the Linux Distro Heap. I am being asked to move to CentOS as it has a longer support window. "Having to update my OS every 2 years is a real pain in the butt! Now it is moving to a 18 month window. I really need to look at something else that meets my needs" Business like to stay as long as they are able to the release. "If it aint broke don't fix it!" "We really need a fall back position. What are your recommendations? Doesn't Novell realize who pays their salaries? What about Ubunto, Debian, Fedora/CentOS, or Solaris, BSDs?"

Solution: Have the openSUSE->openSLE->SLES/SLED path available.

Alternative, we have multiple RC's until we get it good enough for market. All calendars indicating a target release date for next version should be burned. We save so much time/man-hours/production/printing costs to stop this ridiculous waste of money and version number for no functional gain and a few bugs fixed, as the case currently is. Service Packs are O.K, but unfortunately with the massive amount of things that do not work, I think we may need to have more than one RC of a version shipped to market! We just need to hold onto our hats to make sure the upgrade/update works without destroying as much as in the past.

...

At some of the event I and others I talk with have attended it is often asked "Why doesn't Novell offer an opneSLE alternitive?" People using the fedora->CentOS->RHEL talk of how many of the business they support move this route to become RHEL customers. I think we (being the SUSE prefered" really would benefit from a similar path. That is why I am trying to somehow get a group organized. So we are able to have our voice heard at the higher levels of Novell.

Thanks for reading this. I propose using the Freenode IRC #opensuse-server channel and either of the lists in the CC. to further discuss this idea and form a group.

Thank you,

......and that's my user dummy spit and suggestions for now and I think there will be many to come and they will NOT be so nice, my post will pale into insignificance, once the ball gets rolled out. Thanks for reading such a long post and thanks to the original author who told it the way it is! Scott

alpha096＠virginbroadband.com.au

21:33

Boyd Lynn Gerber wrote:

...

Hello,

With the annoucement today.

http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-announce/2009-08/msg00009.html

that openSUSE is on a 18 month cycle, maybe we need to form a group...

The thought is that a possible out come of this group maybe an openSLE which would be like this model

fedora->centos->RHEL

but for SUSE -SLES openSUSE->openSLE->SLE-| -SLED

This is from the end of the project meeting. I hope the boat has not sailed already and it is too late. I am not quite sure about adding yet another trail of slightly different versions. I would be happy with the following, but for nothing, to gain more valuable media space that is under huge threat now We can also spin this a lot better for the commercial client.

...

My thoughts from what I have heard from talks with clients, IRC chats, and misc.

WARNING (This is my honest view/perception and is not politically correct)

1. Many small business owners/small companies feel there is a lack of attention to their needs from Novell. That is to say Novell only listens to "Monster Enterprise Clients"

Solution: We form a group that combined has equivelant $$$ behind it to warrent attention. An alternative solution, may be to gather those same $$$ into just fixing the bugs a commercial client reports themselves or via support and to put the screws on production to demand a higher quality output in the first instance together with everyone in development having only

...

2. Many resent replies from Novell people (although it is just their opinion) through the various mediums treat SMB's and their staff as idiots. It comes off as if it comes from arrogant 20-something know it alls dictating what the community has to do. To quote some CEO's and COO... "The SUSE/Novell people act like a bunch arrogant 20-something ... that treat us and are staff like idiots.) SMB's have to contribute more time/money/resources to keep openSUSE going. (Why should we when we are treated like idiots)?

Solution: Better communitcation. Some signs of improvement, but a strong feeling of being dictated, rather than lead"

...

3. They are really concerned "OpenSUSE distro is moving toward just a desktop Ubunto clone. They are ignoreing what was there bigest strength. Providing a Polished First Class Stable Server with necessary Desktop fetures."

Solution: This could be solved by openSLE (A openSUSE centos like clone as refered in the above example).

Solution. Release a products that is more included to work, this means lowering bugs and 'fixed bugs' directly out of development to ZERO With upper hundreds of number of bugs, we are NOT going to produce a "Providing a Polished First Class Stable Server with necessary Desktop features" The first Agenda Item for Project Managers Meetings, is static, its always BUGS/RFC/ETC... Numbers, classifications, how many last week and how many this week, NO reduction? - FIX THE SITUATION and set targets! People are happy at the moment just to have a job!

...

4. "Tired of hearing we do this for fun, it is not my problem/responsibility, hire a programmer or become one." "Fix it yourself as it is a community distro. The community is not doing enough or is too small." What happens is or feels like the various groups that are part of the community are not fully trusted. What I see/feel/hear is that globally the openSUSE distro is moving to the bottom of the Linux Distro Heap. I am being asked to move to CentOS as it has a longer support window. "Having to update my OS every 2 years is a real pain in the butt! Now it is moving to a 18 month window. I really need to look at something else that meets my needs" Business like to stay as long as they are able to the release. "If it aint broke don't fix it!" "We really need a fall back position. What are your recommendations? Doesn't Novell realize who pays their salaries? What about Ubunto, Debian, Fedora/CentOS, or Solaris, BSDs?"

Solution: Have the openSUSE->openSLE->SLES/SLED path available.

...

At some of the event I and others I talk with have attended it is often asked "Why doesn't Novell offer an opneSLE alternitive?" People using the fedora->CentOS->RHEL talk of how many of the business they support move this route to become RHEL customers. I think we (being the SUSE prefered" really would benefit from a similar path. That is why I am trying to somehow get a group organized. So we are able to have our voice heard at the higher levels of Novell.

Thanks for reading this. I propose using the Freenode IRC #opensuse-server channel and either of the lists in the CC. to further discuss this idea and form a group.

Thank you,

alpha096＠virginbroadband.com.au

17 Aug 17 Aug

21:28

(Warning! Language also use here is not politically correct)) Just thought I would mention another Bug report that goes from the simple logic and degenerates into a piss off stage https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=487427 Scott alpha096@virginbroadband.com.au wrote:

...

Boyd Lynn Gerber wrote:

...
Hello,

With the annoucement today.

http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-announce/2009-08/msg00009.html

that openSUSE is on a 18 month cycle, maybe we need to form a group...

The thought is that a possible out come of this group maybe an openSLE which would be like this model

fedora->centos->RHEL

but for SUSE -SLES openSUSE->openSLE->SLE-| -SLED

This is from the end of the project meeting. I hope the boat has not sailed already and it is too late.

I am not quite sure about adding yet another trail of slightly different versions. I would be happy with the following, but for nothing, to gain more valuable media space that is under huge threat now We can also spin this a lot better for the commercial client.

openSLES-> SLED openSLED-> SLES

I would believe from a distribution point, the original proposed increased versions would be; far greater in resources to maintain far greater from the development point to package and not intermix modules in various CPU dependant hardware would do nothing, with the exception of creating yet another buffer, for bugs to be found, before we offer the commercial product far greater in mastering, presentation and consumables mass confusion in a great deal of users, they are confused enough

...
My thoughts from what I have heard from talks with clients, IRC chats, and misc.

WARNING (This is my honest view/perception and is not politically correct)

1. Many small business owners/small companies feel there is a lack of attention to their needs from Novell. That is to say Novell only listens to "Monster Enterprise Clients"

Solution: We form a group that combined has equivelant $$$ behind it to warrent attention.

An alternative solution, may be to gather those same $$$ into just fixing the bugs a commercial client reports themselves or via support and to put the screws on production to demand a higher quality output in the first instance together with everyone in development having only the current RC of opensuse.x installed on their PC with default login managers. It is so obvious that development do not use the product as we ship it OR spend the life with a command prompt on the screen and innumerable variations customised to the developer. Do this and we wont see half the bugs in ALPHA or BETA or RC or Commercial.

...
2. Many resent replies from Novell people (although it is just their opinion) through the various mediums treat SMB's and their staff as idiots. It comes off as if it comes from arrogant 20-something know it alls dictating what the community has to do. To quote some CEO's and COO... "The SUSE/Novell people act like a bunch arrogant 20-something ... that treat us and are staff like idiots.) SMB's have to contribute more time/money/resources to keep openSUSE going. (Why should we when we are treated like idiots)?

Solution: Better communitcation. Some signs of improvement, but a strong feeling of being dictated, rather than lead"

Solution: Perform!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. I have never read such a more true and accurate understanding of the Nature of Business at Novell.de and Suse.DE and its absolutely correct, however in this time of being Politically Correct, I am glad some one has actually articulated these words. This type of working culture starts at the top and works its way to the bottom - I suggest we fix the TOP!

Do a search on Bugzilla for all bugs marked as WONTFIX and lay down the law that a developer does not have the ability to remove any functionality already in product, unless it compromises the Kernel or Resources. For every WONTFIX - The reason for this closure item must be written into the bug report in text and justified and each development manager MUST sign of on them

Another solution would be to open 'Yast' and 'Gnome' 'Xorg' up for user bugs and Enhancements and FATE. It does not take a genius to work out that both of these areas are closed shops as bugs/enhancements to any of the above most often result in CLOSED/WONTFIX. Its not rocket science to do a simple search in theses areas.

...
3. They are really concerned "OpenSUSE distro is moving toward just a desktop Ubunto clone. They are ignoreing what was there bigest strength. Providing a Polished First Class Stable Server with necessary Desktop fetures."

Solution: This could be solved by openSLE (A openSUSE centos like clone as refered in the above example).

Solution. Release a products that is more included to work, this means lowering bugs and 'fixed bugs' directly out of development to ZERO With upper hundreds of number of bugs, we are NOT going to produce a "Providing a Polished First Class Stable Server with necessary Desktop features"

The first Agenda Item for Project Managers Meetings, is static, its always BUGS/RFC/ETC... Numbers, classifications, how many last week and how many this week, NO reduction? - FIX THE SITUATION and set targets! People are happy at the moment just to have a job!

...
4. "Tired of hearing we do this for fun, it is not my problem/responsibility, hire a programmer or become one." "Fix it yourself as it is a community distro. The community is not doing enough or is too small." What happens is or feels like the various groups that are part of the community are not fully trusted. What I see/feel/hear is that globally the openSUSE distro is moving to the bottom of the Linux Distro Heap. I am being asked to move to CentOS as it has a longer support window. "Having to update my OS every 2 years is a real pain in the butt! Now it is moving to a 18 month window. I really need to look at something else that meets my needs" Business like to stay as long as they are able to the release. "If it aint broke don't fix it!" "We really need a fall back position. What are your recommendations? Doesn't Novell realize who pays their salaries? What about Ubunto, Debian, Fedora/CentOS, or Solaris, BSDs?"

Solution: Have the openSUSE->openSLE->SLES/SLED path available.

Alternative, we have multiple RC's until we get it good enough for market. All calendars indicating a target release date for next version should be burned. We save so much time/man-hours/production/printing costs to stop this ridiculous waste of money and version number for no functional gain and a few bugs fixed, as the case currently is. Service Packs are O.K, but unfortunately with the massive amount of things that do not work, I think we may need to have more than one RC of a version shipped to market! We just need to hold onto our hats to make sure the upgrade/update works without destroying as much as in the past.

...
At some of the event I and others I talk with have attended it is often asked "Why doesn't Novell offer an opneSLE alternitive?" People using the fedora->CentOS->RHEL talk of how many of the business they support move this route to become RHEL customers. I think we (being the SUSE prefered" really would benefit from a similar path. That is why I am trying to somehow get a group organized. So we are able to have our voice heard at the higher levels of Novell.

Thanks for reading this. I propose using the Freenode IRC #opensuse-server channel and either of the lists in the CC. to further discuss this idea and form a group.

Thank you,

......and that's my user dummy spit and suggestions for now and I think there will be many to come and they will NOT be so nice, my post will pale into insignificance, once the ball gets rolled out. Thanks for reading such a long post and thanks to the original author who told it the way it is! Scott

Jim Henderson

21:42

New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Creating a group of conserned Users and Novell partners/longer life time for openSUSE... (LONG POST)

On Tue, 18 Aug 2009 07:28:34 +1000, alpha096-s1Qd5/t2W4U+7tqfrXfpIu+c56aDEaJX wrote:

...

(Warning! Language also use here is not politically correct))

Just thought I would mention another Bug report that goes from the simple logic and degenerates into a piss off stage https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=487427

Scott

The logic looks good to me, and as the person who is responsible for deciding if a deviation from GNOME is appropriate or not decided it wasn't, but suggested that it be filed upstream. No special permission is needed to submit a bug to the GNOME project, so it sure looks like a good suggestion to me to file the bug upstream. Continuing to argue about this isn't getting the suggestion into the right system. Just submit the bug into the system (if you're the reporter) that was suggested at let the GNOME team have at it. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Magnus Boman

21:49

On Tue, 2009-08-18 at 07:28 +1000, alpha096@virginbroadband.com.au wrote:

...

(Warning! Language also use here is not politically correct))

Just thought I would mention another Bug report that goes from the simple logic and degenerates into a piss off stage https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=487427

I'm not sure what you are trying to say here? Vincent is more than friendly and helpful in that bugreport despite your tone, which to me, doesn't come across as very nice. Cheers, Magnus -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Clayton

18 Aug 18 Aug

07:05

New subject: [opensuse-project] Creating a group of conserned Users and Novell partners/longer life time for openSUSE... (LONG POST)

...

On Tue, 2009-08-18 at 07:28 +1000, alpha096@virginbroadband.com.au wrote:

...
(Warning! Language also use here is not politically correct))

Just thought I would mention another Bug report that goes from the simple logic and degenerates into a piss off stage https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=487427

I'm not sure what you are trying to say here? Vincent is more than friendly and helpful in that bugreport despite your tone, which to me, doesn't come across as very nice.

Exactly. Reading that bug report, the comments by Vincent are fine... they explicitly tell the originator what he has to do... making the change in the openSUSE Gnome would deviate from upstream... so the change has to be made upstream. What's so difficult to understand there? C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Per Jessen

15 Aug 15 Aug

16:13

New subject: [opensuse-project] Creating a group of concerned Users and Novell partners/longer life time for openSUSE... (LONG POST)

Boyd Lynn Gerber wrote:

...

WARNING (This is my honest view/perception and is not politically correct)

1. Many small business owners/small companies feel there is a lack of attention to their needs from Novell. That is to say Novell only listens to "Monster Enterprise Clients"

Solution: We form a group that combined has equivelant $$$ behind it to warrent attention.

I run a small company, but I'm not quite sure which of my (openSUSE-related) needs require more attention from Novell. Still, I'm listening, I'm interested to see where your initiative might go. /Per Jessen, Zürich -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Peter Albrecht

17 Aug 17 Aug

07:18

New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: [opensuse-announce] Creating a group of conserned Users and Novell partners/longer life time for openSUSE... (LONG POST)

Hi Boyd,

...

The thought is that a possible out come of this group maybe an openSLE which would be like this model

fedora->centos->RHEL

but for SUSE -SLES openSUSE->openSLE->SLE-| -SLED

Personally, I really like this idea because there have been so many discussions on why such a product is not available for SUSE Linux.

...

4. "Tired of hearing we do this for fun, it is not my problem/responsibility, hire a programmer or become one." "Fix it yourself as it is a community distro. The community is not doing enough or is too small." What happens is or feels like the various groups that are part of the community are not fully trusted. What I see/feel/hear is that globally the openSUSE distro is moving to the bottom of the Linux Distro Heap. I am being asked to move to CentOS as it has a longer support window. "Having to update my OS every 2 years is a real pain in the butt! Now it is moving to a 18 month window. I really need to look at something else that meets my needs" Business like to stay as long as they are able to the release. "If it aint broke don't fix it!" "We really need a fall back position. What are your recommendations? Doesn't Novell realize who pays their salaries? What about Ubunto, Debian, Fedora/CentOS, or Solaris, BSDs?"

My question is: Why don't these customers move to SUSE Linux Enterprise (Server and Desktop)? Is that EUR 300.00 per year an amount they do not want to pay for getting 7 years of support, updates and training? Don't they want to pay additional money for the services? Are they not happy with the services offered by Novell or with the way Novell treats them? If it's just the services and the way Novell treats them, well, that's the chance for other (smaller) companies to provide these services for their customers. To make it short: I would be interested in getting involved in this discussion. Thank you, Peter -- Peter Albrecht Tel: +49-(0)-89-287793-83 Open Source School GmbH Mob: +49-(0)-173-3528664 Amalienstraße 77 Fax: +49-(0)-89-287555-63 80799 München http://www.opensourceschool.de HRB 172645 - Amtsgericht München Geschäftsführer: Peter Albrecht, Dr. Markus Wirtz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Per Jessen

07:53

New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: [opensuse-announce] Creating a group of conserned Users and Novell partners/longer life time for openSUSE... (LONG POST)

Peter Albrecht wrote:

...

...
4. "Tired of hearing we do this for fun, it is not my problem/responsibility, hire a programmer or become one." "Fix it yourself as it is a community distro. The community is not doing enough or is too small." What happens is or feels like the various groups that are part of the community are not fully trusted. What I see/feel/hear is that globally the openSUSE distro is moving to the bottom of the Linux Distro Heap. I am being asked to move to CentOS as it has a longer support window. "Having to update my OS every 2 years is a real pain in the butt! Now it is moving to a 18 month window. I really need to look at something else that meets my needs" Business like to stay as long as they are able to the release. "If it aint broke don't fix it!" "We really need a fall back position. What are your recommendations? Doesn't Novell realize who pays their salaries? What about Ubunto, Debian, Fedora/CentOS, or Solaris, BSDs?"

My question is: Why don't these customers move to SUSE Linux Enterprise (Server and Desktop)? Is that EUR 300.00 per year an amount they do not want to pay for getting 7 years of support, updates and training? Don't they want to pay additional money for the services? Are they not happy with the services offered by Novell or with the way Novell treats them?

That's exactly what I thought too when I read Boyds item#4. /Per Jessen, Zürich -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Mark V

09:36

New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: [opensuse-announce] Creating a group of conserned Users and Novell partners/longer life time for openSUSE... (LONG POST)

On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 5:53 PM, Per Jessen wrote:

...

Peter Albrecht wrote:

...
...
4. "Tired of hearing we do this for fun, it is not my problem/responsibility, hire a programmer or become one." "Fix it yourself as it is a community distro. The community is not doing enough or is too small." What happens is or feels like the various groups that are part of the community are not fully trusted. What I see/feel/hear is that globally the openSUSE distro is moving to the bottom of the Linux Distro Heap. I am being asked to move to CentOS as it has a longer support window. "Having to update my OS every 2 years is a real pain in the butt! Now it is moving to a 18 month window. I really need to look at something else that meets my needs" Business like to stay as long as they are able to the release. "If it aint broke don't fix it!" "We really need a fall back position. What are your recommendations? Doesn't Novell realize who pays their salaries? What about Ubunto, Debian, Fedora/CentOS, or Solaris, BSDs?"

My question is: Why don't these customers move to SUSE Linux Enterprise (Server and Desktop)? Is that EUR 300.00 per year an amount they do not want to pay for getting 7 years of support, updates and training? Don't they want to pay additional money for the services? Are they not happy with the services offered by Novell or with the way Novell treats them?

That's exactly what I thought too when I read Boyds item#4.

Hmm I thought they'd have to pay EUR 2,100 to get 7 years of support. No? Anyway, I think the existence and popularity of the CentOS distribution establishes beyond dispute that there is demand for this, albeit in a particular market segment. Back on topic. I think an openSLES/openSLED distro could actually encourage some users to stick with openSUSE, but I feel this will hurt Novell revenues much more than what I propose below. I also think this openSLES/openSLED effort could dilute the time spent on the openSUSE release that feeds into SLES/SLED. I do think , like the CentOS crowd, that having the openSLES/openSLED distro would be better than not having it, .i.e I'd be happy to bear the cost of the diluted openSUSE effort. My current reasoning is this: At the moment I make bug reports for openSUSE x, then I get to lose the 'benefit' of that investment when I have to migrate to openSUSE x+, furthermore I have to pay cash (in addition to the time already paid) to get SLES/SLED and have the ongoing long-term-benefit of the time previously contributed. It doesn't seem right that I could skip committing time to openSUSE, then pay the /same/ amount of cash for SLES/SLED /and/ now have bugs fixed for me when I report them in SLES/SLED... I'm assuming SLES/SLED bug reports receive more professional reponses than is the case for openSUSE - maybe not? Anyway, I think Novell has created some 'interesting' incentives, perhaps with the unintended consequence of creating an incentive for bug hunting to take place in SLES/SLED. At least if I had openSLES/openSLED I could employ those on my stable machine(s) and so retain the benefit of the bug hunting and reporting I, and others, did in the openSUSE x release. This long lasting benefit encourages me and others to continue bug hunting... trust me I'd rack up EUR 300 in no time tracking a bug. Of course this begs the question: Why don't Novell cultivate their code and bug reporters/contributors by 'granting'/bestowing SLES/SLED licenses to these people. Could be tricky to work out a rewards/points scheme, but it might be worth the effort? It might eliminate any dilution of openSUSE effort that would accompany an openSLES/openSLED effort. Besides airlines, finance and supermarket firms managed to get their heads around these reward schemes. Perhaps an open source distro vendor's business analysts could too ;) ? To be ahead all Novell has to do is get more than EUR 300 of code and/or reporting effort contributed each year before they grant a SLED/SLES license to the contributor/reporter. To work the reward scheme would have to be structured carefully and be effective from the outset - i.e. it should not be require herculean levels of effort to earn licenses - I'm not sure how much more bad press Novell/openSUSE can sustain. At the moment I'm thinking of jumping to Ubuntu (Redhat have created the same incentive problem Novell has, witness CentOS), precisely to use the LTS release in a hosted environment. So I'll also migrate my laptop to hammer on which ever is the release that is intended to be the next LTS release. my 2c Mark

...

/Per Jessen, Zürich

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Boyd Lynn Gerber

21 Aug 21 Aug

15:06

New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: [opensuse-announce] Creating a group of conserned Users and Novell partners/longer life time for openSUSE... (LONG POST)

On Mon, 17 Aug 2009, Per Jessen wrote:

...

Peter Albrecht wrote:

...
...
4. "Tired of hearing we do this for fun, it is not my problem/responsibility, hire a programmer or become one." "Fix it yourself as it is a community distro. The community is not doing enough or is too small." What happens is or feels like the various groups that are part of the community are not fully trusted. What I see/feel/hear is that globally the openSUSE distro is moving to the bottom of the Linux Distro Heap. I am being asked to move to CentOS as it has a longer support window. "Having to update my OS every 2 years is a real pain in the butt! Now it is moving to a 18 month window. I really need to look at something else that meets my needs" Business like to stay as long as they are able to the release. "If it aint broke don't fix it!" "We really need a fall back position. What are your recommendations? Doesn't Novell realize who pays their salaries? What about Ubunto, Debian, Fedora/CentOS, or Solaris, BSDs?"

My question is: Why don't these customers move to SUSE Linux Enterprise (Server and Desktop)? Is that EUR 300.00 per year an amount they do not want to pay for getting 7 years of support, updates and training? Don't they want to pay additional money for the services? Are they not happy with the services offered by Novell or with the way Novell treats them?

That's exactly what I thought too when I read Boyds item#4.

Some good points and I know their are some that the $ do matter, but for most they do not want to move to a "Linux alteritive" till they are convinced that they are able to treat the OS as only a tool on which they are able to run their business. Personally, I really can not in good consence install a SLE(S,D) that had not been paided for and does not get security fixes to prove to them that "Linux is the right choice" (My prefernce openSUSE--SLE(S,D)) So they are able to get that "warm fuzzy". I have had really good results in installing CentOS and moving them to RHEL. It hurts me on a personal level having to go that route. I really dislike having to be forced to use and support something that my heart is not into. My heart is with the openSUSE -- SLE(S,D), but I have to make a living and the customer is the one I serve. So, if I currently one have one choice for them, I have to use the Red Hat alternitive (even though I think they could/would be best served in the long run by the Novell alternitive). -- Boyd Gerber 801 849-0213 ZENEZ 1042 East Fort Union #135, Midvale Utah 84047 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Cristian Morales Vega

15:48

New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: [opensuse-announce] Creating a group of conserned Users and Novell partners/longer life time for openSUSE... (LONG POST)

2009/8/21 Boyd Lynn Gerber :

...

On Mon, 17 Aug 2009, Per Jessen wrote:

...
Peter Albrecht wrote:

...
...
4. "Tired of hearing we do this for fun, it is not my problem/responsibility, hire a programmer or become one." "Fix it yourself as it is a community distro. The community is not doing enough or is too small." What happens is or feels like the various groups that are part of the community are not fully trusted. What I see/feel/hear is that globally the openSUSE distro is moving to the bottom of the Linux Distro Heap. I am being asked to move to CentOS as it has a longer support window. "Having to update my OS every 2 years is a real pain in the butt! Now it is moving to a 18 month window. I really need to look at something else that meets my needs" Business like to stay as long as they are able to the release. "If it aint broke don't fix it!" "We really need a fall back position. What are your recommendations? Doesn't Novell realize who pays their salaries? What about Ubunto, Debian, Fedora/CentOS, or Solaris, BSDs?"

My question is: Why don't these customers move to SUSE Linux Enterprise (Server and Desktop)? Is that EUR 300.00 per year an amount they do not want to pay for getting 7 years of support, updates and training? Don't they want to pay additional money for the services? Are they not happy with the services offered by Novell or with the way Novell treats them?

That's exactly what I thought too when I read Boyds item#4.

Some good points and I know their are some that the $ do matter, but for most they do not want to move to a "Linux alteritive" till they are convinced that they are able to treat the OS as only a tool on which they are able to run their business. Personally, I really can not in good consence install a SLE(S,D) that had not been paided for and does not get security fixes to prove to them that "Linux is the right choice" (My prefernce openSUSE--SLE(S,D)) So they are able to get that "warm fuzzy". I have had really good results in installing CentOS and moving them to RHEL. It hurts me on a personal level having to go that route. I really dislike having to be forced to use and support something that my heart is not into. My heart is with the openSUSE -- SLE(S,D), but I have to make a living and the customer is the one I serve. So, if I currently one have one choice for them, I have to use the Red Hat alternitive (even though I think they could/would be best served in the long run by the Novell alternitive).

Exactly how much time they need "to be convinced that they are able to treat the OS as only a tool on which they are able to run their business"? SLE already has a 60 days evaluation period... if the only problem is that it's too short just make it longer, no need for a new distro. If you can argue Novell is losing clients, and so money, because the evaluation period is too short I'm sure they will make it longer in no time. But I expect they to have studied this at deep, not just selected 60 at random. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Boyd Lynn Gerber

17:16

New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: [opensuse-announce] Creating a group of conserned Users and Novell partners/longer life time for openSUSE... (LONG POST)

On Fri, 21 Aug 2009, Cristian Morales Vega wrote:

...

2009/8/21 Boyd Lynn Gerber :

...
On Mon, 17 Aug 2009, Per Jessen wrote:

...
Peter Albrecht wrote:

...
...
4. "Tired of hearing we do this for fun, it is not my problem/responsibility, hire a programmer or become one." "Fix it yourself as it is a community distro. The community is not doing enough or is too small." What happens is or feels like the various groups that are part of the community are not fully trusted. What I see/feel/hear is that globally the openSUSE distro is moving to the bottom of the Linux Distro Heap. I am being asked to move to CentOS as it has a longer support window. "Having to update my OS every 2 years is a real pain in the butt! Now it is moving to a 18 month window. I really need to look at something else that meets my needs" Business like to stay as long as they are able to the release. "If it aint broke don't fix it!" "We really need a fall back position. What are your recommendations? Doesn't Novell realize who pays their salaries? What about Ubunto, Debian, Fedora/CentOS, or Solaris, BSDs?"

My question is: Why don't these customers move to SUSE Linux Enterprise (Server and Desktop)? Is that EUR 300.00 per year an amount they do not want to pay for getting 7 years of support, updates and training? Don't they want to pay additional money for the services? Are they not happy with the services offered by Novell or with the way Novell treats them?

That's exactly what I thought too when I read Boyds item#4.

Some good points and I know their are some that the $ do matter, but for most they do not want to move to a "Linux alteritive" till they are convinced that they are able to treat the OS as only a tool on which they are able to run their business. Personally, I really can not in good consence install a SLE(S,D) that had not been paided for and does not get security fixes to prove to them that "Linux is the right choice" (My prefernce openSUSE--SLE(S,D)) So they are able to get that "warm fuzzy". I have had really good results in installing CentOS and moving them to RHEL. It hurts me on a personal level having to go that route. I really dislike having to be forced to use and support something that my heart is not into. My heart is with the openSUSE -- SLE(S,D), but I have to make a living and the customer is the one I serve. So, if I currently one have one choice for them, I have to use the Red Hat alternitive (even though I think they could/would be best served in the long run by the Novell alternitive).

Exactly how much time they need "to be convinced that they are able to treat the OS as only a tool on which they are able to run their business"? SLE already has a 60 days evaluation period... if the only problem is that it's too short just make it longer, no need for a new distro. If you can argue Novell is losing clients, and so money, because the evaluation period is too short I'm sure they will make it longer in no time. But I expect they to have studied this at deep, not just selected 60 at random.

The problem is really one of time for me. I often find depending on industry, that I have to add openSUSE packages, or customize their configuration. It is hard in these economic times, for me to take the risk. Basically, I have been having to do everything for free till they get that "warm fuzy". The time for them to get that "warm fuzzy" has been taking about 6-8 months. So lets look at things a bit. Choices 1. Install openSUSE (now only an additional 10 months to a year before they have to install a new openSUSE. a. No Large Company (to blame for things going wrong or security issues. b. To short of a lifetime. (What to have it just be a tool not a worry or concern. c. Constanyly changing and having to work at the tool instead of just using it to make a profit. d. Bugs fixed quickly or more quickly (perception). 2. Install SLE(S,D) a. Large company with rep. b. Bad Novel experience, not SuSE. c. "Bugs take longer to be fixed and releases" d. Have to pay before the "warm fuzzy" (My time unbillable) (Way I have been doing things in the past.) I am changin my pratice and now everything must be paid in advance. Which leads to the next comment I received today" e. "To much up front cost before seeing benefits" f. Good support for extended period (7 years) "Big plus" g. Plus/minus GNOME (depends on point of view). "Comment today "KDE is a second class citizen" ... We SMB's really do not have the time to really customize a SLE(D,S) on our own for each industry. We are forced to specialize. Hence this group to pool all our resources to from a united front to offer a Novell alternitive to the current precived best choice Red Hat alternitive that already has a large community and CentOS to RHEL path that looks really good to many business. I hear that "Red Hat make the OS a tool not a religion" The Novell path "Is a religion oriented OS" It is not but that is what I am hearing from my clients. -- Boyd Gerber 801 849-0213 ZENEZ 1042 East Fort Union #135, Midvale Utah 84047 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Per Jessen

22 Aug 22 Aug

10:37

New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: [opensuse-announce] Creating a group of conserned Users and Novell partners/longer life time for openSUSE... (LONG POST)

Boyd Lynn Gerber wrote: [big snip]

...

We SMB's really do not have the time to really customize a SLE(D,S) on our own for each industry. We are forced to specialize. Hence this group to pool all our resources to from a united front to offer a Novell alternitive to the current precived best choice Red Hat alternitive that already has a large community and CentOS to RHEL path that looks really good to many business.

Wait. Which SMBs are we talking about - the end-user or the consultancy? I thought we were talking about the end-user. My company doesn't sell or provide openSUSE to anyone - nor SLED/S for that matter. We are an openSUSE user, we use openSUSE as our core platform for servers and desktop. /Per Jessen, Zürich -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Boyd Lynn Gerber

14:13

New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: [opensuse-announce] Creating a group of conserned Users and Novell partners/longer life time for openSUSE... (LONG POST)

On Sat, 22 Aug 2009, Per Jessen wrote:

...

Boyd Lynn Gerber wrote:

...
We SMB's really do not have the time to really customize a SLE(D,S) on our own for each industry. We are forced to specialize. Hence this group to pool all our resources to from a united front to offer a Novell alternitive to the current precived best choice Red Hat alternitive that already has a large community and CentOS to RHEL path that looks really good to many business.

Wait. Which SMBs are we talking about - the end-user or the consultancy? I thought we were talking about the end-user. My company doesn't sell or provide openSUSE to anyone - nor SLED/S for that matter. We are an openSUSE user, we use openSUSE as our core platform for servers and desktop.

I am taling about all Small-Medium Businesses. User, consultancy/resellars. The comments are what I have personally heard from many different people with regards to any Novell offering, right now. The biggest concern for any I have told that the lifetime is now only 18 months is very very bad. Tending towards having to find a different distro and they need longer support. So back on topic. I am seeking to form a group of users that when joined form a group with $$$ behind them to gain attention from the upper Novell management to address the needs of SMB's. -- Boyd Gerber 801 849-0213 ZENEZ 1042 East Fort Union #135, Midvale Utah 84047 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Per Jessen

14:38

New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: [opensuse-announce] Creating a group of conserned Users and Novell partners/longer life time for openSUSE... (LONG POST)

Boyd Lynn Gerber wrote:

...

On Sat, 22 Aug 2009, Per Jessen wrote:

...
Boyd Lynn Gerber wrote:

...
We SMB's really do not have the time to really customize a SLE(D,S) on our own for each industry. We are forced to specialize. Hence this group to pool all our resources to from a united front to offer a Novell alternitive to the current precived best choice Red Hat alternitive that already has a large community and CentOS to RHEL path that looks really good to many business.

Wait. Which SMBs are we talking about - the end-user or the consultancy? I thought we were talking about the end-user. My company doesn't sell or provide openSUSE to anyone - nor SLED/S for that matter. We are an openSUSE user, we use openSUSE as our core platform for servers and desktop.

I am taling about all Small-Medium Businesses. User, consultancy/resellars. The comments are what I have personally heard from many different people with regards to any Novell offering, right now. The biggest concern for any I have told that the lifetime is now only 18 months is very very bad. Tending towards having to find a different distro and they need longer support.

So back on topic. I am seeking to form a group of users that when joined form a group with $$$ behind them to gain attention from the upper Novell management to address the needs of SMB's.

Okay, the lifetime is not an issue for my company, but I'd like to tag along and see where you go. /Per Jessen, Zürich -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Boyd Lynn Gerber

16:37

New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: [opensuse-announce] Creating a group of conserned Users and Novell partners/longer life time for openSUSE... (LONG POST)

On Sat, 22 Aug 2009, Per Jessen wrote:

...

...
So back on topic. I am seeking to form a group of users that when Boyd Lynn Gerber wrote:

joined form a group with $$$ behind them to gain attention from the upper Novell management to address the needs of SMB's.

Okay, the lifetime is not an issue for my company, but I'd like to tag along and see where you go.

Great, because that is just one example of things this group could address. I think having this coalalition, will caultivate many things. I think this group will tackle the many diverse needs of all. I will be creating a couple email lists on my domain. One to create an RFC to submit to the project list. I am still reading my mounds of email from while I was gone. Thanks, -- Boyd Gerber 801 849-0213 ZENEZ 1042 East Fort Union #135, Midvale Utah 84047 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Per Jessen

16:46

New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: [opensuse-announce] Creating a group of conserned Users and Novell partners/longer life time for openSUSE... (LONG POST)

Boyd Lynn Gerber wrote:

...

Great, because that is just one example of things this group could address. I think having this coalalition, will caultivate many things. I think this group will tackle the many diverse needs of all. I will be creating a couple email lists on my domain. One to create an RFC to submit to the project list. I am still reading my mounds of email from while I was gone.

If you want, I can host a list; I have an active mailman setup. /Per Jessen, Zürich -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Peter Albrecht

17:38

New subject: [opensuse-project] Creating a group of conserned Users and Novell partners/longer life time for openSUSE... (LONG POST)

Hi Boyd,

...

...
Exactly how much time they need "to be convinced that they are able to treat the OS as only a tool on which they are able to run their business"? SLE already has a 60 days evaluation period... if the only problem is that it's too short just make it longer, no need for a new distro. If you can argue Novell is losing clients, and so money, because the evaluation period is too short I'm sure they will make it longer in no time. But I expect they to have studied this at deep, not just selected 60 at random.

The problem is really one of time for me. I often find depending on industry, that I have to add openSUSE packages, or customize their configuration. It is hard in these economic times, for me to take the risk. Basically, I have been having to do everything for free till they get that "warm fuzy". The time for them to get that "warm fuzzy" has been taking about 6-8 months. So lets look at things a bit.

I'm not sure if I did get that right, so just use an example: You do install packages from openSUSE 11.1 into SLE 11 because the customer needs this application. Your (or your customers) concern is now exactly what? That there will be no updates or patches available for this application after openSUSE 11.1 is no longer supported? How could the proposed "openSLE 11" solve this problem? * Somebody would need to provide all the patches and updates in the future. And that person can already do that now using the openSUSE Build Service. If you need to run an application from SUSE 10.1 on SLES 10 SP2, you could provide up-to-date versions via the openSUSE Build Service. I don't see that "openSLE" would go any different way. * If the customer decides after 6-8 months of testing "Yes, we go with Linux", what would be the reason for not going with SLE but rather with "openSLE"?

...

Choices 1. Install openSUSE (now only an additional 10 months to a year before they have to install a new openSUSE. a. No Large Company (to blame for things going wrong or security issues. b. To short of a lifetime. (What to have it just be a tool not a worry or concern. c. Constanyly changing and having to work at the tool instead of just using it to make a profit. d. Bugs fixed quickly or more quickly (perception).

And all these points are good reasons to use SLE. It's free as well, but you pay for the services. I think it is a problem that many companies still think "Oh, Linux is free, so I want everything for free. And it should be supported for 5+ years with providing patches for free." That is the big misunderstanding we all need to work on.

...

2. Install SLE(S,D) a. Large company with rep. b. Bad Novel experience, not SuSE.

What kind of "bad" experience? Is this something you could do as it's your customer? If Novell focuses on the large customers, it would be the chance for Novell partners or independent companies to provide that service.

...

c. "Bugs take longer to be fixed and releases"

I doubt that. When you look at the SUSE security announcements they are issued at the same time for all operating systems - openSUSE as well as SUSE Linux Enterprise.

...

d. Have to pay before the "warm fuzzy" (My time unbillable) (Way I have been doing things in the past.) I am changin my pratice and now everything must be paid in advance. Which leads to the next comment I received today" e. "To much up front cost before seeing benefits"

How would that change in an "openSLE" environment? Would you not charge for your work with that? Again, my point from above: Everybody offering services for Open Source Software needs to make clear that you do of course have to pay for the services. Just the software is free.

...

f. Good support for extended period (7 years) "Big plus" g. Plus/minus GNOME (depends on point of view). "Comment today "KDE is a second class citizen"

Both KDE and GNOME are offered for SLE. And I don't see a bigger difference between the two on SLE compared to those on openSUSE (if you take 11.1 which is the base for SLE 11). Regards, Peter -- Peter Albrecht Tel: +49-(0)-89-287793-83 Open Source School GmbH Mob: +49-(0)-173-3528664 Amalienstraße 77 Fax: +49-(0)-89-287555-63 80799 München http://www.opensourceschool.de HRB 172645 - Amtsgericht München Geschäftsführer: Peter Albrecht, Dr. Markus Wirtz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Boyd Lynn Gerber

23 Aug 23 Aug

17:19

New subject: [opensuse-project] Creating a group of conserned Users and Novell partners/longer life time for openSUSE... (LONG POST)

On Sat, 22 Aug 2009, Peter Albrecht wrote:

...

...
...
Exactly how much time they need "to be convinced that they are able to treat the OS as only a tool on which they are able to run their business"? SLE already has a 60 days evaluation period... if the only problem is that it's too short just make it longer, no need for a new distro. If you can argue Novell is losing clients, and so money, because the evaluation period is too short I'm sure they will make it longer in no time. But I expect they to have studied this at deep, not just selected 60 at random.

The problem is really one of time for me. I often find depending on industry, that I have to add openSUSE packages, or customize their configuration. It is hard in these economic times, for me to take the risk. Basically, I have been having to do everything for free till they get that "warm fuzy". The time for them to get that "warm fuzzy" has been taking about 6-8 months. So lets look at things a bit.

I'm not sure if I did get that right, so just use an example: You do install packages from openSUSE 11.1 into SLE 11 because the customer needs this application. Your (or your customers) concern is now exactly what? That there will be no updates or patches available for this application after openSUSE 11.1 is no longer supported?

I have brought up several things from my experiences with clients/customers. One complaint was that openSUSE was only supported for 24 months. They want the OS to be just a tool that they can use without a lot of effort or knowledge. They want to run their businesses to make money. They do not want to worry about OS. They then brought up the various LTS OS's and asked if openSUSE had one. Of course the answer was no. Problem is that their is nothing like CentOS for Novell's offerings.

...

How could the proposed "openSLE 11" solve this problem?

The openSUSE LTS or openSLE would provide them longer support window.

...

* Somebody would need to provide all the patches and updates in the future. And that person can already do that now using the openSUSE Build Service. If you need to run an application from SUSE 10.1 on SLES 10 SP2, you could provide up-to-date versions via the openSUSE Build Service. I don't see that "openSLE" would go any different way.

It would not. We would use the OBS for either/both of these ideas.

...

* If the customer decides after 6-8 months of testing "Yes, we go with Linux", what would be the reason for not going with SLE but rather with "openSLE"?

The issue is mine. I do not want to install SLE(D,S) unless they pay for it. It is necessary to have all security fixes and updates applied. Running an unpatched system is just a big "No No for me!"

...

...
Choices 1. Install openSUSE (now only an additional 10 months to a year before they have to install a new openSUSE. a. No Large Company (to blame for things going wrong or security issues. b. To short of a lifetime. (What to have it just be a tool not a worry or concern. c. Constanyly changing and having to work at the tool instead of just using it to make a profit. d. Bugs fixed quickly or more quickly (perception).

And all these points are good reasons to use SLE. It's free as well, but you pay for the services. I think it is a problem that many companies still think "Oh, Linux is free, so I want everything for free. And it should be supported for 5+ years with providing patches for free." That is the big misunderstanding we all need to work on.

Agreed many have that idea. The thing is to show them value in using a long term supported OS. My clients really do not want to know the details about the OS. They want it to just work. "After all the OS is just a tool."

...

...
2. Install SLE(S,D) a. Large company with rep. b. Bad Novel experience, not SuSE.

What kind of "bad" experience? Is this something you could do as it's your customer? If Novell focuses on the large customers, it would be the chance for Novell partners or independent companies to provide that service.

Many come from the Networking Days of the Novell products. A lot stems from being a Novell partner. Many of us have stopped being Novell Partners. It was not worth the $$$ to stay a partner. We have been at conferences where upper management make statements but the reality is "We really do not support ...." At the same conference. Really big mixed messages. But the message is clear with how SMB's are treated.

...

...
d. Have to pay before the "warm fuzzy" (My time unbillable) (Way I have been doing things in the past.) I am changin my pratice and now everything must be paid in advance. Which leads to the next comment I received today" e. "To much up front cost before seeing benefits"

How would that change in an "openSLE" environment? Would you not charge for your work with that? Again, my point from above: Everybody offering services for Open Source Software needs to make clear that you do of course have to pay for the services. Just the software is free.

An openSLE or openSUSE LTS would provide the enviroment for those doing business selling support to the SMB's. This would allow us to grow the OS in the SMB's business and demostrate that the OS really can be thought of as just a tool. Someone has to pay for the effort. Wheter it is with time or money. Open Source Software (OSS) does have a cost. The group doing the work for either/both openSLE or openSUSE LTS would be paying for the extended support window with their time and efforts.

...

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f. Good support for extended period (7 years) "Big plus" g. Plus/minus GNOME (depends on point of view). "Comment today "KDE is a second class citizen"

Both KDE and GNOME are offered for SLE. And I don't see a bigger difference between the two on SLE compared to those on openSUSE (if you take 11.1 which is the base for SLE 11).

Yes, but when you call on SLE and the questions are KDE related you are treated a whole lot different than if you are using GNOME. (My experience) The issue is how things are being done on SLE(D,S). A lot more effort has to be done to install KDE. Let's leave this part to the KDE vs GNOME that will always be a struggle between the two choices and not go down this lane. -- Boyd Gerber 801 849-0213 ZENEZ 1042 East Fort Union #135, Midvale Utah 84047 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Per Jessen

19:25

New subject: [opensuse-project] Creating a group of conserned Users and Novell partners/longer life time for openSUSE... (LONG POST)

Boyd Lynn Gerber wrote:

...

I have brought up several things from my experiences with clients/customers. One complaint was that openSUSE was only supported for 24 months. They want the OS to be just a tool that they can use without a lot of effort or knowledge. They want to run their businesses to make money. They do not want to worry about OS.

Why are they worried about support? I have just this weekend been migrating a few things off an ancient 8.2 system. It'll quite likely still be running for a few months, but SuSE Linux 8.2 is about 6 years old, and it's been running fine without any kind of Novell support.

...

They then brought up the various LTS OS's and asked if openSUSE had one. Of course the answer was no. Problem is that their is nothing like CentOS for Novell's offerings.

Boyd, if your customers really do not want to worry about the OS, they sure are asking the wrong questions. Those questions have been put into their minds by somebody else, I suspect. It's called FUD. /Per Jessen, Zürich -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Gerald Pfeifer

17 Aug 17 Aug

18:19

New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: [opensuse-announce] Creating a group of conserned Users and Novell partners/longer life time for openSUSE... (LONG POST)

On Fri, 14 Aug 2009, Boyd Lynn Gerber wrote:

...

1. Many small business owners/small companies feel there is a lack of attention to their needs from Novell. That is to say Novell only listens to "Monster Enterprise Clients"

Solution: We form a group that combined has equivelant $$$ behind it to warrent attention.

How is this related to what you call openSLE? Looking at your comparison with Fedora/CentOS/RHEL, there is zero $$$ behind CentOS as far as Red hat goes. Perhaps you could describe how you'd see this interact/relate to openSUSE on one, and SLE on the other hand? That would be helpful for me, and possibly others, to better understand your proposal.

...

2. To quote some CEO's and COO... "The SUSE/Novell people act like a bunch arrogant 20-something ... that treat us and are staff like idiots.) SMB's have to contribute more time/money/resources to keep openSUSE going. (Why should we when we are treated like idiots)?

Which Linux operating systems are these CEOs and COOs using? There is a reference to openSUSE here, which would imply their interaction with Novell is via the openSUSE community as opposed to Novell Technical Services, Sales, etc?

...

At some of the event I and others I talk with have attended it is often asked "Why doesn't Novell offer an opneSLE alternitive?"

For the same reason that Red Hat is not offering one, I assume.

...

People using the fedora->CentOS->RHEL talk of how many of the business they support move this route to become RHEL customers. I think we (being the SUSE prefered" really would benefit from a similar path. That is why I am trying to somehow get a group organized. So we are able to have our voice heard at the higher levels of Novell.

I am listening. :-) Gerald -- Dr. Gerald Pfeifer E gp@novell.com SUSE Linux Products GmbH Director Product Management F +49(911)74053-483 HRB 16746 (AG Nuremberg) SUSE Linux Enterprise, openSUSE, Appliances GF Markus Rex -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Boyd Lynn Gerber

21 Aug 21 Aug

14:53

New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: [opensuse-announce] Creating a group of conserned Users and Novell partners/longer life time for openSUSE... (LONG POST)

Sorry, that I have not been available. I was as a handing out CD/DVD to a group of SCO resellers at one of the meetings. I am just getting back in town. I did not intend for such a long debate and divergence. I found this email as I was going through the mamouth emails will I was gone. It will take me a few days to get through all my email to respond. On Mon, 17 Aug 2009, Gerald Pfeifer wrote:

...

On Fri, 14 Aug 2009, Boyd Lynn Gerber wrote:

...
1. Many small business owners/small companies feel there is a lack of attention to their needs from Novell. That is to say Novell only listens to "Monster Enterprise Clients"

Solution: We form a group that combined has equivelant $$$ behind it to warrent attention.

How is this related to what you call openSLE? Looking at your comparison with Fedora/CentOS/RHEL, there is zero $$$ behind CentOS as far as Red hat goes.

Let me clairifiy, this. I mean that as a group combined our $$$ would give us a better voice to Novell's upper management. It seems to me that they only really listen to the people with the big bucks. So to get them to listen we as a group need to have enough people together to form such a group to get the ear of the top level Novell management. We need some changes that can only really come from people endowed with the authority to make changes that really benefit us Small-Medium Businesses (SMB)

...

Perhaps you could describe how you'd see this interact/relate to openSUSE on one, and SLE on the other hand? That would be helpful for me, and possibly others, to better understand your proposal.

What I see is a possible statement from Novell, that they would support us as a community in developing this group. That should be choose to create an openSLE, they would not sue us. (Left over from my talks and handing out the DVD's). One comment was made to me if I was trying to do an "In Your Face SCO." Which I replied, I am only trying to let you have options for the unclear future. I love openSUSE and having SLE(S,D) is an addvanage for clients that really need support from a large company. At this conference I talked with the fedora/CentOS/RHEL group. They told me that having CentOS has made it some much easier to move people (that needed real support from a larger company) to RHEL. The reason they choose CentOS as their choice was the ability to have a larger company to move their clients. "CentOS is as close as you can get to a OS that can be used for business and there longer support cycle needs without having/being forced to such an OS."

...

...
2. To quote some CEO's and COO... "The SUSE/Novell people act like a bunch arrogant 20-something ... that treat us and are staff like idiots.) SMB's have to contribute more time/money/resources to keep openSUSE going. (Why should we when we are treated like idiots)?

Which Linux operating systems are these CEOs and COOs using?

CentOS and RHEL or should I say looking really hard at them. Most have been long time Novell supporters(before the SUSE acquirement). Some had/were long time Novell... * (SMBs's)

...

There is a reference to openSUSE here, which would imply their interaction with Novell is via the openSUSE community as opposed to Novell Technical Services, Sales, etc?

No, they come from using Novell before the SUSE aquirement. Some from getting tired of Red Hat and not really meeting their needs. (Read KDE user's) the reference comes from their perception that with the 24 month cycle it really is tooooo... short a time to really run a business. Many like to install the OS and just forget about it. "It is just a tool to be used, not a religion. We want an OS that will allow us to concentrate on what we do best ""Our business"", we are not hacker or geek's we just want to run our business and make a profit." I have not had the heart to tell them that we have moved from a 24 month to a 18 month distro. This is really going to get them worked up even more than they are already. Hence the need for a CentOS type of openSUSE.

...

...
At some of the event I and others I talk with have attended it is often asked "Why doesn't Novell offer an opneSLE alternitive?"

...

...
People using the fedora->CentOS->RHEL talk of how many of the business they support move this route to become RHEL customers. I think we (being the SUSE prefered" really would benefit from a similar path. That is why I am trying to somehow get a group organized. So we are able to have our voice heard at the higher levels of Novell.

I am listening. :-)

Thanks, I really apperciate it. I guess as a long time Novell user/reseller, contributor and SuSE Linux user/reseller and contributor, I want to provide/create a group that is able to be heard and allow us SMB's to really gain from SUSE in it's current forms. That is why I mention that openSLE is a possible outcome of this group. There is a great group the provides the Education needs(I am also a member). But SMB's really do not seem to be getting what we need. This group only wants to use the OS as a tool. So we that reseller/support/prefer the current Novell OS's openSUSE, OES. SLE(S,D) are able to have a community that meets our needs. One option is the openSLE->SLE(S,D) for business. They really do not want to have to worry about their OS. Thanks, -- Boyd Gerber 801 849-0213 ZENEZ 1042 East Fort Union #135, Midvale Utah 84047 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

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alpha096＠virginbroadband.com.au
Boyd Lynn Gerber
Clayton
Cristian Morales Vega
Gerald Pfeifer
Jim Henderson
Magnus Boman
Mark V
Per Jessen
Peter Albrecht