On Wed, 25 Sep 2013 11:01:45 -0500, Larry Finger wrote: I noted that as well - the comment in the article mentioned that we have an expectation of intelligent questions. I don't think that's an unreasonable expectation, though for new users it can be hard to know what constitutes an intelligent question. I've taken to point people who seem to have trouble with that at Eric Raymond's essay on asking smart questions, as that seems to be a good place to start. I have also been trying to find the time to finish drafting an automated welcome message for new users that outline some of the FAQs we get (a) about the forums, and (b) about how to provide the information needed. The challenge is that it needs to be quite succinct or it won't get read, but there needs to be a fair amount of information conveyed. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner(a)opensuse.org

On Sun, 29 Sep 2013 04:42:07 +0200 (CEST) "Carlos E. R." <carlos.e.r(a)opensuse.org> wrote: You have to know part of an answer in order to ask a question the Knowledge Keeper can answer. Translate that to Moore's situation: * He knows Windows terminology, directory structure, utilities, configurations, etc. Some of that is the same, some different, but until you learn both Windows and Linux you have no idea what is the same and what different. * Number of programs for different purposes in Linux is sometimes much larger then in Windows, sometimes smaller. While programming and system administration is in Linux more then well covered, multimedia, graphics and entertainment are not that good. He had to cover both, admin functions for setting up and administering the network, and education, including multimedia. * He did not have time to learn all that. It takes years, and he had to give some well working solution before mentality to buy (fewer) new Windows machines kicks in and sidetracks his effort. In other words he was forced to learn on the go: * how to deal with community helpers (what is acceptable, what not, whom to trust) * new terms in order to ask proper questions * new programs and their capabilities in order to provide feedback If you are not familiar with a problem then look at the zillion systemd man pages, and that is much smaller problem than what he had. -- Regards, Rajko. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner(a)opensuse.org

On Sun, 29 Sep 2013 03:26:02 -0500, Rajko wrote: As do we all. That's not unique to his situation. Again, as do we all when confronted with something new. If in doubt, it's certainly considered acceptable to ask and to say "I don't know what the term is that should be used here" or "I don't know how to find that piece of information out - can you provide some guidance?" Learning about an OS is an ongoing process, regardless of how expert you are. Which is true - so asking "how can I narrow down the list" is better than "I'm not going to read the documentation, so teach me what I need to know." I'm not saying that Moore did that (in fact, I went through his posts/ threads in the forum, and honestly couldn't find an instance of what he claimed happened). But I all too often see people who engage in "getting help" by doing something like: --- snip --- Q: My video doesn't work! Fix it for me! A: We'd love to help, but we need to know what video card you have, the version of openSUSE, and what specifically doesn't work/happens on your system. Q: I don't know how to tell that! Just fix it for me! --- snip --- Or, if they do post something useful, they don't use code tags (which means the log file content is nearly impossible to read because the forum software reformats it), or they post in the wrong forum, or any one of a hundred other things that hinder their ability to get help. Followed by getting *angry* at being told how to provide information in a way that lets those who help in the forums actually help. It usually boils down to "my time is valuable" (on the asker's side) and yours isn't. And it comes across as "I need this answer in 30 seconds or I'm switching distros" (we've had people mistake forums for IRC-like chats, even) and "I gave you the information you need to help me, it's up to you - the helper - to decypher it and make sense out of it, regardless of whether or not it's what you actually needed or asked for." Not to mention those who are asked for information that's extremely relevant and don't respond to it, don't try the things that are suggested, or that just rant that they're not getting helped despite the best efforts of those trying to help to actually help. If you ask a question and get an answer you don't like (for reasons other than "that suggestion didn't work"), the proper way to respond isn't "I like not that answer. Bring me a different answer!". But we get that on occasion. It's not common, but it is rare. And again, not a characterization of Moore's experiences in the openSUSE forums. Anytime someone complains about the forums, though, I research the issue as best I can to find out what we could have done better. Usually, though, what I find is that the person with the complaint hasn't been helped either because (a) nobody has the necessary experience/expertise to help them (forums are, after all, "best effort," and most people won't jump into a thread on a topic they know nothing about), or (b) they didn't want to use a solution that was provided to them for whatever reason. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner(a)opensuse.org