How do you think openSUSE can make it on netbooks if Novell is pushing SLE there, clearly not understanding that the target user is different, and, as a consequence, people is not interested in an enterprise desktop, but wants something more flexible? Another consideration is that to push openSUSE on netbooks, Novell would have to grant level of qualities of two distributions, SLE and openSUSE, while currently they have formally no obligation with respect to openSUSE. In other words, I don't see any chance for openSUSE on netbooks if Novell doesn't wake up from the "Enterprise only" dream, and starts concentrating also on _actually_ making openSUSE what its slogan say: "The most usable Linux for home users". In this respect, I am very interested on the focus discussion, which should start sooner or later, about openSUSE goals. Regards, Alberto -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

On Thursday 05 March 2009 06:13:51 member greenarrow1 wrote: You get everything in openSUSE that is in SLED and SLES as well (unless it's closed source software that is not freely redistributable). openSUSE 11.1 contains already nearly everything that SLE{D,S}11 will have and those things that are missing (since SLE gets released later) might hit openSUSE 11.1 as updates or have been added to the factory tree targetting openSUSE 11.2. openSUSE is an own distribution where we make also changes that are not needed for SLE at all but are needed for the openSUSE community. Novell likes to have an independend openSUSE. If we make openSUSE that perfect that nobody wants SLED anymore, then Novell has to rethink it's business model. The business model of SLE is making money not only with selling of a product but with the support offerings for it. If openSUSE becomes better than SLED, Novell will cope with it. So, yes, please discuss where we all want openSUSE to go - and please respect that Novell cannot do everything itself. openSUSE is what the community makes out of it - and I consider myself and Novell part of the community. We have opened up process and tools - and still have to do more here - so that people outside of Novell can build the distribution without access to the internal network. Now this needs to be taken advantage of. I see already some parts like Carlos doing a KDE 3.5 LiveCD, people maintaining the Contrib repository but that's just the beginning. The project is constantly changing and opening up - and sometimes those small changes cause pain or do not get noticed on a daily basis.. Btw. Peter, it's openSUSE with a small "o", Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, Director Platform / openSUSE, aj(a)suse.de SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126

Le jeudi 05 mars 2009, à 10:23 +0100, jdd a écrit : Can you elaborate on what you mean? (so we can try to fix it :-)) Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

On Thursday 05 March 2009 14:21:35 Martin Schlander wrote: I know Novell has still too much power and we're trying to change that - and giving up power is not easy ;). So, please bear with us. And keep in mind that while there are many interesting things, we can not do everything ourselves, so feel empowered to change openSUSE! Yes, 10.1 was a painfull experience - and we wouldn't have done it this way if we would have known before, Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, Director Platform / openSUSE, aj(a)suse.de SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126

I agree, things changed. But some substantial aspects are exactly identical, and they are playing a major role, affecting 11.1 and potentially all other releases. Right. But the event repeated, even if in a different form, with 11.1, which was again rushed "in favour" of SLE. I used " " on purpose, because I don't see how a rushed openSUSE can be if any help even for Novell, and I still find it very hard to understand why they rush the base of their enterprise distribution. It makes no sense. Right. Formally. In practice the board members live in the community exactly as us, they know the problems (I'm sure of that), and their action is limited exactly as the action of members and simple users. I fully agree on this. But to have a growing community, Novell has to _trust_ the community and throw its prejudices away. This would improve Novell experience and probably save them some (maybe not too much) money. Just look at how Novell managed translations on SLE, which instead of being based on the community fixed ones, corrected in three release cycles, present significant regressions coming from SLE 10. Just an example on something I experienced, of course, but it clarifies that Novell can have advantages from the community too. I agree, but as I answered to Vincent, to grow we need to provide new users, who are potential contributors, the tools to grow themselves. Or we will see the usual random contributor come, get frustrated because he sees he can't change things, and leave for some other place where his voice can be actually heard. Regards, Alberto -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

Hi, on 03/05/2009 03:51 PM Rajko M. wrote: I'm sorry but what the heck are you talking about? Tell me one concrete example of your theory. 10.1 is not an example of a crusty corporate structure that hates change. Its an example of a wrong decision taken for all the wrong reasons and learning from it. We keep talking about this group of people that calls itself Novell as if it is a Person. Novell is Michael Matz and Petr Uzel. Its AJ, Adrian Miguel, Stefan Dirsch and Ron Hovsepian. Its me and the cleaning lady. If you think that someone is crusty and hates change then tell them. Or tell me so i can de-crust them. But putting everyone in a sack and beat on it is simply wrong. Henne -- Henne Vogelsang, openSUSE. Everybody has a plan, until they get hit. - Mike Tyson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

On Thursday 05 March 2009 09:08:14 am Henne Vogelsang wrote: Really :-) Few individuals, not influenced by environment, brought wrong decision, but learned from consequences, end of story. Romantic picture that I haven't seen except in movies. The real work place where boss can send you home, his boss can send him home, and so on, employees will write what is expected to be written in reports, with as little as possible annoyance for superiors, and there is small chance that decision maker, few floors upper, will ever get real picture. That is exactly the same communication problem in any company and it gets worse with the time. The only way to make guys on upper floors aware of problems is when customers/users cry laud, or they order a survey. Corporations spend quite some effort to create corporate identity, and now you complain on success :-) Problem is that large entity is sum of components. What any one of you want can come out completely different when summed up. It is fact of life. And, about decrusting, I can see some, otherwise I wouldn't care to comment, but there is still to strong focus on enterprise. *** The main problem is that Novell has no product for small business and personal use. Many would go around and try to sell software, but offer is SLED or openSUSE. First expensive, second far from professional. There is nothing in between. Last time, when I did installation, it took me 4 hours with reasonably fast DSL. The 11.0 was installed in lesser than hour, the rest was updates, multimedia setup, and few words how to use. I don't know many people that are so patient. You can imagine what problem is when computer refuse to boot after kernel update, or graphic driver is not ready when kernel is, or any of many other problems. I have to be ready and fix the problem instantly, because I convinced person to use the Linux. Not to mention that such problems defeat main argument to switch, to have computer without problems. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

On Saturday 14 March 2009 08:56:21 pm Gerald Pfeifer wrote: I've seen that, but we (mostly you) have to pull togheather many pieces, that make problems. Yes, mail list is useful too :-) I wrote, actually, letter about communication problems, and they are real. Though, it could be that it never came out of draft folder. I often leave mails over night. Next morning I see discussion went somewhere else, and send letter in trash. Problems where employee don't want to upset boss and skips inconvenient details, and that goes level after level until nothing is left from bunch of small problems that all make rainy day. There are 2 reasons for concern from non-Novell employees side. One is that we invested quite some time in openSUSE and we want to be part of success, not anything else. The other is that everybody is looking for backup plan right now. Having good, but relative cheap software can be chance, not only for Novell, but for many independent vendors to turn crisis into grow. Yes, I got that. It is something in the wording that makes me optimistic, and it seems that I'm not alone. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

Lørdag 14 marts 2009 15:23:44 skrev Gerald Pfeifer: I'll get over it when/if a decent openSUSE x.1 is ever released >:-) For me 11.1 reopened the scars. From my point of view 11.1 was sacrificed on the altar of SLE pretty much like 10.1 was. It was different in the way that 10.1 was rather good apart from a single central non-working component, whereas 11.1 was more a case of death by a thousand bugs. The development process was a complete mess with zero respect for feature freeze or string freeze (being a translator gives you a pretty good idea of what's going on development wise). Instead of fixing bugs developers were busy developing features for SLE after openSUSE feature freeze. I believe more new features were in 11.1 than usual, despite 11.1 being a shorter release cycle than usual - and the effects of that messy process on quality were of course quite predictable - 11.1 was released with a heep of bugs - including major ones like non-working cd-burning, compiz, kbluetooth, amarok2... I installed 10.1 on the release day, installing Smart and disabling zmd was all that was required to make it very nice. 11.1 I didn't install until just the other day, when I figured it had prolly been patched to a respectable level after a few months. Maybe now, a few months after the release I'll even start recommending 11.1 to some people. Investing a lot of spare time translating, testing, doing artwork and writing documentation for a broken release that you don't even want to use yourself, let alone recommend to anyone else, is really painful - especially when it happens for the second time. I started researching and testing other distros when it became clear that 11.1 would be really poor. That's a big decision for someone to make after years of openSUSE contribution and zealotry. However, for now I've found that the other distros are at least equally flawed. This discussion started when someone said that openSUSE is what we make of it, but both 10.1 and 11.1 show that at least every 4th openSUSE release (the x.1s) are very much so at the mercy of structures, planning and decisions made by some invisible hand that I usally refer to as "Novell". I think it's difficult to grow when every 4th release automatically sucks. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Sunday, 2009-03-15 at 16:22 +0100, jdd wrote: Then you have been lucky. During the beta/rc phase I bumped into several bad bugs that impeded me from testing other things. The last one was that the system crashed entirely, every time, a bug that has been solved by the last kernel update: meaning that I could not even think of installing 11.1 till now. And now, a new one appeared, with that last update: when hibernating, the machine does not power off. Again, I can not install. So yes, 11.1 is a bad release. IMO, of course. And based on my experience, when asked by novices, I can not recommend 11.1 - and that distresses me. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

2009/3/16 jdd <jdd(a)dodin.org>rg>: I agree with Carlos. I'm running 5 stationary PC's and 3 laptops on 11.1 with KDE4.1 It's really loveable, but it's not so stable that I can recomend it to friends. For the stationary PC's I'm running a system with LDAP authentication with automaounting NFS homes and the user profile stored on the NFS home. All PC's are of cource not the same, as it is a home setup. In this setup I see a lot of strange problems with the KDE task bar and plasma. On one of them I can't even get through the login procedure with one user that works on the 4 others. So of course, it can be HW dependent, but I'm not sure about that... I'm using normal of the mill x86 HW. Some Intel and some AMD and mostly Nvidia as Gfx. (Yes I have written bugzillas during 11.1 testing , but not on everything. I only have som much time...) Birger -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

On Thu, Mar 5, 2009 at 8:41 AM, jdd <jdd(a)dodin.org> wrote: That's something we're trying to get away from. As Andreas says - it's not easy. It's not just a matter of "Novell doesn't want to give up control," either - part of it is being conscious of when decisions should be made publicly, rather than by the people in the room at any given time. So, 1) please be patient with the Novell employees who are moving in the right direction, and 2) *politely* remind us if/when "important choices" are made without input from the community. This is like any other relationship, it takes work, but we'll get there. :-) Thanks! Zonker -- Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier <jzb(a)zonker.net> openSUSE Community Manager: http://zonker.opensuse.org Blogs: http://blogs.zdnet.com/community | http://www.dissociatedpress.net Twitter: jzb | Identica: jzb http://identi.ca/group/opensuse/members -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

On Thursday 05 March 2009 15:01:50 jdd wrote: Novell will continue to be part of openSUSE, and as such I consider myself and other employees community members, but our vision includes that we make decisions in a transparent way in a community process and not decisions by Novell behind closed doors. Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, Director Platform / openSUSE, aj(a)suse.de SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126

On Thursday 05 March 2009 14:58:17 Vincent Untz wrote: There should be nothing. And if somebody feels blocked, speak up and I'll try to help moving the block. Full agreement, Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, Director Platform / openSUSE, aj(a)suse.de SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126

Stanislav Visnovsky a écrit : you know this don't really mind anything. Most non-Novell community members are *not* programmers, but help writing documentation, translating wiki or testing so we can't live without Novell. However Novell would be much embarrassed if the non-Novell community left, so we have to work together as we did and try help eachother jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://valerie.dodin.org http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-eic8MSSfM http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1412160445 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

Le vendredi 06 mars 2009, à 04:42 +0100, Carlos E. R. a écrit : I don't understand why people think features can only be code. A really really useful new feature would be "improve organization of documentation", and it has nothing to do with code, eg :-) Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

Hi! On Štvrtok 05 March 2009 15:53:25 jdd wrote: Example where everyone can help: Feature #305634: Debian-like dist-upgrade live system full version upgrade (https://features.opensuse.org/305634) The biggest part of this feature is: 1) testing 2) documenting pitfalls Stano -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Friday, 2009-03-06 at 09:43 +0100, Stanislav Visnovsky wrote: This is terribly difficult to test. Or rather, very much time consuming. We need a system that is now 11.1, and have to run an upgrade "zypper dup" to factory - (beta or rc, not alfa, I think). We can run this only once, and on the "stable" partition. If it hoses, we have to rebuild our stable partition from scratch, or backup (meaning: do a backup before every test of this). Or, if we have the time, create a test partition with 11.1, and update it to factory, and reset, several times, to test the feature. This is a very long test during which we can not use our computer - and not every tester has several computers to use simultaneously. Like one for testing, one for "producing". - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Friday, 2009-03-06 at 13:22 +0100, jdd wrote: Could be, yes... Still, we need a working 11.1 installation under vmware or virtualbox, then update it to factory. In vmware at least, you can revert all changes to go back to 11.1 and try again. Time consuming, but at least the computer is not out of commission during the test. It would be easier if an image of the installed (virtual) system is distributed. But now that I think! Testing a virtual system means that everybody will test the same hardware (the virtual hardware). Than may be not good. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R.

On Friday 06 March 2009 08:30:09 am Carlos E. R. wrote: It is 8-10 GB. Once installed make separate copy on another directory. In Virtual box you can create snapshot of status that you want keep and then after test just revert to snapshot. It is faster then to copy back disk image that you have stored. Once system works in virtual machine it is easier to test installation and boot on real hardware. You know if something is broken it is hardware related. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

(replying a bit late, apologies) Le jeudi 05 mars 2009, à 09:42 -0600, Alberto Passalacqua a écrit : If the answers are not welcoming, then we should fix this. When you see this, feel free to ask somebody else to step up and reply with a nicer mail. (of course, there are always cases where people clearly didn't even search for a solution themselves while the solution is the first result in google, and in those cases, we can't do much more than "please search a bit before posting") The wiki page you're working on is a good first step. But yes, this is hard. Please note that for "old" contributors, it's sometimes hard to remember what's difficult when you first try to contribute. So reminding them about this doesn't hurt :-) Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

On Thu, Mar 05, 2009 at 09:47:47AM +0100, Andreas Jaeger wrote: "also changes that are not needed for SLE" - alright. But what about *conflicting* changes? (Totally naive question. I can't actually think of an example right now, I'm more conceiving that such conflicts could arise) If we have a plot for dealing with this, it might serve to lessen perveiced risks and concerns that the community might have about this. Peter -- "WARNING: This bug is visible to non-employees. Please be respectful!" SUSE LINUX Products GmbH Research & Development

On Thu, Mar 05, 2009 at 02:46:35PM +0100, Andreas Jaeger wrote: Examples help. Yes, I see. I also see the "big bad" example 10.1 package management being mentioned, which admittedly is in the distant past now and I'm sure that everybody appreciates that we have learnt a lot from it. This sounds right, and makes sense to me. What made me ask this is that I somehow felt a gap in your above mail. (The one where you put it like "... also changes that are not needed ..."). There, I found something was missing and unsaid, concerning such a possible conflict of interests. And following this thread, I see this particular concern uttered more than once, so it really concerns people, and it's good to be explicit about this. Showing ways how to constructively deal with the situation, like you just did, is very good. Thanks, Peter -- "WARNING: This bug is visible to non-employees. Please be respectful!" SUSE LINUX Products GmbH Research & Development

Torsdag 05 marts 2009 14:58:07 skrev Peter Poeml: I'm not entirely certain something similar couldn't happen again, though it would be difficult to create a disaster on the same scale. I didn't mean that Novell control is necessarily a bad thing. Leadership is needed, as long as the leadership makes the correct decisions ;-) Some other examples are the various legally motivated "limitations" imposed by Novell (p2p, codecs etc.). Or the pretty strange desktop selection situation, which doesn't reflect opensuse community interests imo. Again, I'm not saying it's not understandable that Novell imposes certain things, since they pay the bills. I just tried to explain to vuntz what jdd meant :-) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

On Thursday 05 March 2009 10:48:28 am Martin Schlander wrote: Do you mean sort on desktop selection? It is alphabetic =:) To make sure that alphabet is correctly implemented Console is under Other. Even right now with KDE4 in a front row alphabet and popular demand are not corelated. 10.2 KDE 71.8% 17282 GNOME 22.4% 5398 xfce 1.2% 297 Console 1.9% 460 Other (please specify) 2.7% 641 Total Respondents 24078 11.0 KDE3 38.5% 4007 KDE4 29.8% 3109 GNOME 26.9% 2799 xfce 1.1% 117 Console 1.4% 148 Other (please specify) 2.3% 238 answered question 10418 P.S. Few days ago I installed GNOME and everything non-KDE experienced time shift in the past, fontwise. After long attempt to find where are font settings for GTk applications, it was clear that I have not enough expertise to pull things out of past. I gave up, and installed whole thing (11.1) again. Not that I wasn't persistent, I think that I visited all places with strings font, conf, gtk, gtk2, gnome, X11, but nothing helped. I could post the question, but why someone should ask the question to set a default font type? It was bad enough that installation of some packages made Firefox look ugly. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

2009/3/5 Peter Poeml <poeml(a)suse.de>de>: I can. Multimedia support..... Novell is run under US. Patent laws. This definitely reduces the distributions usefulness for a lot of non-nerd users. Also Yast for media-server, home server etc. is not on SLE's list I guess. But should definitely be on the openSUSE Yast implementation. Birger -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

2009/3/6 Stanislav Visnovsky <visnov(a)suse.cz>cz>: YaST, openSUSE whatever :-) A YaST module that would configure a Upnp , DLNA server for use in the home. ( Prefereably should it be possible to also set up on the fly transcoding based on incomming device. My Nokia N95 and my familys PS3 deos not use the same format :-) ) There are a number of candidate projects that make these servers and I believe it would be a good idea for openSUSE to cooperate with oe of them. The reason for asking for a YaST module is to have a consistent user expereince for the home user managing all these digital services. Please no discussion her on Upnp security...... That is not the point in this context. Birger -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

2009/3/6 Dominique Leuenberger <Dominique.Leuenberger(a)tmf-group.com>om>: Yes, but that can be part of the process. Do you have any preferences? I have been using Mediatomb a bit, but it has been shaky. I have also tried the ps3mediaserver, but not enough to get a good feel for it. Coherence looks interesting, but I have only read about it.... Birger -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

On Thu, 5 Mar 2009, Peter Poeml wrote: It is somewhat hard to discuss something like this on general grounds. Having some examples in the back would help. That said, since you are asking explicitly... ...this is a simple one: If such a case really arises (and I cannot imagine one at this point, but let's assume there may be one) Novell will shoulder the effort and cost on the SLE side. As a corollary, we (Novell) may not activtely engage on the openSUSE side of this coin, so we (openSUSE community) may have to step up. That is very different from blocking such a change, however, and a sign of a vital community in fact. Does that address your questions? Gerald -- Dr. Gerald Pfeifer E gp(a)novell.com SUSE Linux Products GmbH Director Inbound Product Mgmt T +49(911)74053-0 HRB 16746 (AG Nuremberg) openSUSE/SUSE Linux Enterprise F +49(911)74053-483 GF: Markus Rex -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

On Wednesday 04 March 2009 03:01:29 pm Alberto Passalacqua wrote: Just to add: newer OS, multimedia capable, cheaper than enterprize version. No need for support contracts, just online updates and forums will suffice. Big companies have inertia that is not easy to overcome, and also it is not possible to fix openSUSE reputation overnight. Apropos goals: It is also hard to achieve anything sticking to model that works good for long time Linux users that don't mind fixing things. World is changing, average linux (computer) user skills are now all, but computer related. From few comments here and my humble experience main Ubuntu's strength is understanding that mainstream computer users don't care how computer works. They don't want to fix it, they want to use it. This is nothing specific to Linux, or even computers. First cars were driven by people that knew how to fix them, now average driver has no idea how motor works, even replacing tire is a kind of skill. First TV users were able to open the box and replace tube, now average has no idea what to do with all buttons on remote. BTW, remote control is example of design that is good for demanding users and those that need only power, channel and volume control. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

On Friday 06 March 2009 06:26:08 pm James Tremblay aka SLEducator wrote: I'm glad that you posted the question, because my feeling is that all that is missing can't be better described then you did. It is actually small effort to think from layman prospective and give him safe start point. The rest of us will find our way as we always did. One possible way to make openSUSE more attractive with very little effort would be to periodically release new DVD/CD that will contain all bug fixes. We have anyway bunch of development DVDs, one more, call it Remaster, would not take much more time to create, not that much effort as it did before. Updating of both DVDs, new that can be downloaded, and old that people may find in magazines, or on shelves, will go as usually. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

Rob OpenSuSE wrote: I completely agree and this is what drives my "Joe Plumber" comments. I'm one of those who turned off\uninstalled Pulse also I usually ignore Beagle and use the "gnome File Search" tool. Mind you , I don't know enough GREP to save my life. I don't think it's as important as you think to keep hardware support up to date on the LTS, We want the guy who says I'm fraking tired of malware\viruses and registry hacks. Get openSUSE to load mindlessly on the PC he bought 2-3 years ago, then when we have his heart and mind , what do you think he will look for when he buys new? AN OEM that supports SUSE of course! The guys in education that I work with never run the newest version of Ubuntu they all run either the current LTS or the previous one. Why? because we all have older hardware. look in the forums for problems with 1-3 year old hardware versus 0-1 year old stuff. Find something significantly better? No , YaST IS significantly better, is it helping? We need to produce something significantly more usable, Significantly more reliable when it comes to the expected output of an installation and significantly less visible after installation. Joe Plumber does not care that gnome is stale or that Banshee is missing MP5 support as long as the function he expects is there. What concerns Joe is the ability to install or update a particular function when he needs it, not his entire installation. Why do you think so many people resist change? Why was XP given a stay of execution. Why don't people quit jobs they hate? Because change = work! -- James Tremblay openSIS Product Specialist http://www.os4ed.com CNE 3,4,5 MCSE w2k CLE in training Registered Linux user #440182 http://en.opensuse.org/education -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

James Tremblay aka SLEducator wrote: << snippage >> The odd thing is that apt IS placed at an equal level with rpm. They aren't equivalent. rpm and dpkg are. apt and maybe zypper are equivalent. Synaptic and yast2 equals. synaptic = yast2 = gui interface for packages and system apt = zypper = command line interface for packages dpkg = rpm = package manager itself In Ubuntu/Debian land the package manager itself is so seldom talked to even long time Debian users haven't been able to tell me much about it. At one time I was interested in something like rpm's -V option for verification of installed packages in dpkg. There doesn't seem to be one, which I feel is a severe lack in terms of system maintenance. zypper is relatively new but even so better documentation in the form of man pages or a --help option. I dunno, these are just my observations, worth what you paid for them. And if there is documentation I'll just say "Never mind" and read them if you tell me where :) Bruce -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

Rob OpenSuSE escribió: Which is of course BS, if comparisions are made, then they have to be done "deb" vs "rpm", comparing apt with rpm is like comparing pears with apples.. is rather entrenched, and repeated by Well.. there is a massive lack of clue among Journalists ... nothing to see there... Perhaps we can focus on perceived useability issues in YaST The problem is that "YaST" is/was judged based on the perceived current/past problems of some of it modules, not as a complete setup tool.. even more, some of those problems are in stuff completely unrelated to Yast... -- "If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed" -George Carlin (1937-2008) Cristian Rodríguez R. Software Developer Platform/OpenSUSE - Core Services SUSE LINUX Products GmbH Research & Development http://www.opensuse.org/