5 Nov
2010
5 Nov
'10
9:35 a.m.
I guess Joos is kinda running it now, but are we getting closer to
getting it finalized?
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5 Nov
5 Nov
2:43 p.m.
On 2010-11-05 Per wrote:
I guess Joos
one jos, two joos? ;-)
is kinda running it now, but are we getting closer to
getting it finalized?
meh, kind'a. we all seem pretty busy, I send a mail to the -strategy
mailinglist wednesday but haven't seen any replies from the others yet...
At the conf one piece of feedback was that we need a single-sentence mission
to describe what we want - very much like what fedora has:
The Fedora Project's mission is to lead the advancement of free and open
source software and content as a collaborative community.
I think I like their mission and it's also pretty correct - so we brainstormed
on what would fit openSUSE. Suggestions are very welcome, we currently have:
The openSUSE project's mission is to unlock the posibilities of computers to
users around the globe using the power and flexibility of Linux.
but it's far from perfect. Somehow it should mention we focus on flexibility
and power ("make things as simple as possible but no simpler"), it should be
ambitious (eg worldwide blabla), focussed on end-users etc - the requirements
are clear as they come from the rest of the strategy discusion. But now, how
to phrase it in one sentence?
/me bangs his head against the wall again
4:11 p.m.
Op 05-11-10 14:43, Jos Poortvliet schreef:
On 2010-11-05 Per wrote:
To me it sounds straight to the point...... (what is not in it?)
I guess Joos
one jos, two joos? ;-)
is kinda running it now, but are we getting
closer to
getting it finalized?
meh, kind'a. we all seem pretty busy, I send a mail to the -strategy
mailinglist wednesday but haven't seen any replies from the others yet...
At the conf one piece of feedback was that we need a single-sentence mission
to describe what we want - very much like what fedora has:
The Fedora Project's mission is to lead the advancement of free and open
source software and content as a collaborative community.
I think I like their mission and it's also pretty correct - so we brainstormed
on what would fit openSUSE. Suggestions are very welcome, we currently have:
The openSUSE project's mission is to unlock the posibilities of computers to
users around the globe using the power and flexibility of Linux.
but it's far from perfect. Somehow it should
mention we focus on flexibility
and power ("make things as simple as possible but no simpler"), it should be
ambitious (eg worldwide blabla), focussed on end-users etc - the requirements
are clear as they come from the rest of the strategy discusion. But now, how
to phrase it in one sentence?
/me bangs his head against the wall again
plz mind head and wall.. ;-)
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4:46 p.m.
Fredag den 5. november 2010 14:43:50 skrev Jos Poortvliet:
At the conf one piece of feedback was that we need a
single-sentence
mission to describe what we want - very much like what fedora has:
Ah, smart people at the conference :-)
The Fedora Project's mission is to lead the
advancement of free and open
source software and content as a collaborative community.
I think I like their mission and it's also pretty correct
Well, their mission is quite sympathetic and I'm glad to have Fedora around,
but if you read between the lines it really means: "unproductive, bleeding
edge, experimental toy for geeks". And I'm pretty sure that most of the
openSUSE community wants something rather different - fortunately most of the
strategy discussion so far has confirmed this.
- so we
brainstormed on what would fit openSUSE. Suggestions are very welcome, we
currently have:
The openSUSE project's mission is to unlock the posibilities of computers
to users around the globe using the power and flexibility of Linux.
but it's far from perfect. Somehow it should mention we focus on
flexibility and power ("make things as simple as possible but no
simpler"), it should be ambitious (eg worldwide blabla), focussed on
end-users etc - the requirements are clear as they come from the rest of
the strategy discusion. But now, how to phrase it in one sentence?
Sorry to keep repeating myself, but the keywords here should definitely be
productive, powerful and professional :-)
How about something along these lines:
"In the openSUSE project we work together to create a professional and
powerful Linux distribution, which lets people be productive."
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4:52 p.m.
* Martin Schlander <martin.schlander(a)gmail.com> [11-05-10 11:47]:
How about something along these lines:
"In the openSUSE project we work together to create a professional and
powerful Linux distribution, which lets people be productive."
That is very good!
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4:57 p.m.
On Friday 05 November 2010 16:46:35 Martin Schlander wrote:
How about something along these lines:
"In the openSUSE project we work together to create a professional and
powerful Linux distribution, which lets people be productive."
Too narrow since it excludes the infrastructure around the distribution we
have, especially the openSUSE Build Service.
Otherwise I would like it ;). Please give it another try :-)
Andreas
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5:24 p.m.
Fredag den 5. november 2010 16:57:08 skrev Andreas Jaeger:
On Friday 05 November 2010 16:46:35 Martin Schlander
wrote:
Yeah, I thought of that instantly after clicking send, so I already had a
better version prepared in my mind.
How about something along these lines:
"In the openSUSE project we work together to create a professional and
powerful Linux distribution, which lets people be productive."
Too narrow since it excludes the infrastructure around the distribution we
have, especially the openSUSE Build Service. Otherwise I would like it ;). Please give it another
try :-)
The openSUSE community works together to create professional and
powerful technology - letting people be productive with Linux and free/open
source software."
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7:18 p.m.
Andreas Jaeger wrote:
On Friday 05 November 2010 16:46:35 Martin Schlander
wrote:
Are we perhaps talking about two different "items" - the infrastructure
and the distro? Most people will generally only meet the latter.
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How about something along these lines:
"In the openSUSE project we work together to create a professional
and powerful Linux distribution, which lets people be productive."
Too narrow since it excludes the infrastructure around the
distribution we have, especially the openSUSE Build Service. 
10:07 p.m.
On 11/05/2010 08:46 AM, Martin Schlander wrote:
Fredag den 5. november 2010 14:43:50 skrev Jos
Poortvliet:
Substitute something else for professional. I am sure there are plenty
of users like me who don't care if "professionals" find openSUSE
useful. I don't do one thing "professional" with my 11.3 installations,
I do things that are useful to me. Let SLED be what professionals use.
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At the conf one piece of feedback was that we
need a single-sentence
mission to describe what we want - very much like what fedora has:
Ah, smart people at the conference :-)
The Fedora Project's mission is to lead the
advancement of free and open
source software and content as a collaborative community.
I think I like their mission and it's also pretty correct
Well, their mission is quite sympathetic and I'm glad to have Fedora
around,
but if you read between the lines it really means: "unproductive, bleeding
edge, experimental toy for geeks". And I'm pretty sure that most of the
openSUSE community wants something rather different - fortunately most of the
strategy discussion so far has confirmed this.
- so we
brainstormed on what would fit openSUSE. Suggestions are very welcome, we
currently have:
The openSUSE project's mission is to unlock the posibilities of computers
to users around the globe using the power and flexibility of Linux.
but it's far from perfect. Somehow it should mention we focus on
flexibility and power ("make things as simple as possible but no
simpler"), it should be ambitious (eg worldwide blabla), focussed on
end-users etc - the requirements are clear as they come from the rest of
the strategy discusion. But now, how to phrase it in one sentence?
Sorry to keep repeating myself, but the keywords here should definitely be
productive, powerful and professional :-)
How about something along these lines:
"In the openSUSE project we work together to create a professional and
powerful Linux distribution, which lets people be productive."
6 Nov
6 Nov
11:43 a.m.
Fredag den 5. november 2010 22:07:38 skrev Steven L Hess:
On 11/05/2010 08:46 AM, Martin Schlander wrote:
I'm not an IT professional either. But I still like my distro to have a
"professional feel", which I think openSUSE has and is one of the things that
sets it apart from some other distros and which should be preserved going
forward.
But you might be right that the word is counter-productive here - because it
smells a little bit of commercialism and elitism I guess.
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How about something along these lines:
"In the openSUSE project we work together to create a professional and
powerful Linux distribution, which lets people be productive."
Substitute something else for professional. I am sure there are plenty
of users like me who don't care if "professionals" find openSUSE
useful. I don't do one thing "professional" with my 11.3 installations,
I do things that are useful to me. Let SLED be what professionals use.
12:35 p.m.
On 11/06/2010 03:43 AM, Martin Schlander wrote:
Fredag den 5. november 2010 22:07:38 skrev Steven L
Hess:
I think you put it in better words than I did.
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On 11/05/2010 08:46 AM, Martin Schlander wrote:
I'm not an IT professional either. But I still like my distro to have a
"professional feel", which I think openSUSE has and is one of the things that
sets it apart from some other distros and which should be preserved going
forward.
But you might be right that the word is counter-productive here - because it
smells a little bit of commercialism and elitism I guess.
How about something along these lines:
"In the openSUSE project we work together to create a professional and
powerful Linux distribution, which lets people be productive."
Substitute something else for professional. I am sure there are plenty
of users like me who don't care if "professionals" find openSUSE
useful. I don't do one thing "professional" with my 11.3 installations,
I do things that are useful to me. Let SLED be what professionals use.
7 Nov
7 Nov
11:23 a.m.
Steven L Hess wrote:
Substitute something else for professional. I am sure
there are
plenty of users like me who don't care if "professionals" find
openSUSE useful. I don't do one thing "professional" with my 11.3
installations, I do things that are useful to me. Let SLED be what
professionals use.
I'm also not sure professional is the best choice of words here, but the
E in SLED is for Enterprise, which is different. There are many
small-to-medium size businesses that (could) manage very well with a
professional openSUSE distro.
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1 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] What's the latest on the strategy discussion?
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
On Sunday, 2010-11-07 at 11:23 +0100, Per Jessen wrote:
Steven L Hess wrote:
Absolutely.
Although, the drop of maintenance time to only 18 months has sent quite a
few looking for something else that offers at least 24 months.
- --
Cheers,
Carlos E. R.
(from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" at Telcontar)
Substitute something else for professional. I am
sure there are
plenty of users like me who don't care if "professionals" find
openSUSE useful. I don't do one thing "professional" with my 11.3
installations, I do things that are useful to me. Let SLED be what
professionals use.
I'm also not sure professional is the best choice of words here, but the
E in SLED is for Enterprise, which is different. There are many
small-to-medium size businesses that (could) manage very well with a
professional openSUSE distro. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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OKUAnRWihvhzIb/rTm2x1+W1vEYRn63s
=yciX
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6:09 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] What's the latest on the strategy discussion?
On Sunday 07 November 2010 06:00:37 Carlos E. R. wrote:
On Sunday, 2010-11-07 at 11:23 +0100, Per Jessen
wrote:
Professional is fine word waking up memories of something that was good in
every piece it was installed.
And just remark on "short" maintenance term of 18 months.
For people that offer services based on openSUSE to SOHO market, it should be
no problem if they support only desktops. Having end users to learn few bits
ever 1.5 years should not be a problem, it can be seen as your active role to
keep customer up to the modern times demands.
With servers is another story, but if you support services that need stability
then use SLES, otherwise pull sleeves up and learn how to adapt configuration
to new release, or find other in the same position and take over maintenance
beyond 1.5 years.
KDE3 guys showed by example that if you really want, then nothing is
impossible.
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Steven L Hess wrote:
Absolutely.
Although, the drop of maintenance time to only 18 months has sent quite a
few looking for something else that offers at least 24 months. Substitute something else for professional. I am
sure there are
plenty of users like me who don't care if "professionals" find
openSUSE useful. I don't do one thing "professional" with my 11.3
installations, I do things that are useful to me. Let SLED be what
professionals use.
I'm also not sure professional is the best choice of words here, but the
E in SLED is for Enterprise, which is different. There are many
small-to-medium size businesses that (could) manage very well with a
professional openSUSE distro.
7:28 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] What's the latest on the strategy discussion?
Rajko M. wrote:
And just remark on "short" maintenance term
of 18 months. For people
that offer services based on openSUSE to SOHO market, it should be no
problem if they support only desktops. Having end users to learn few
bits ever 1.5 years should not be a problem, it can be seen as your
active role to keep customer up to the modern times demands.
Somehow I suspect you don't deal with a lot of business or back-office
end-users, Rajko.
However, I also don't think the 18 months interval is a problem, it only
means that people skip one or two releases, in particular when they
(the releases) don't bring any significant/desired new functionality.
With servers is another story, but if you support
services that need
stability then use SLES, otherwise pull sleeves up and learn how to
adapt configuration to new release, or find other in the same position
and take over maintenance beyond 1.5 years.
Yep. That works fine too.
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8:57 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] What's the latest on the strategy discussion?
On Sunday 07 November 2010 12:28:35 Per Jessen wrote:
Somehow I suspect you don't deal with a lot of
business or back-office
end-users, Rajko.
No as IT persons do. I'm assembler in my company and I don't touch even things
that is easy to rectify, just because I'm not trained to do so :)
I see people that hate the job and any piece of work place, including
computers. They don't want to learn more than one path how to accomplish tasks
they are paid for. They can't say to the boss the truth, but go around and
complain on anything possible.
In such circumstances even cosmetic change will create (artificial) need for
retraining, which is what bosses hate. Not that workers will actually do
anything with 15 minutes that they have to spend on training, but it is
documented loss, that otherwise will pass unnoticed. Also, they have to add
all lost time to correct errors that passionate work place haters and people
that are at their skill limits, will do.
However, I also don't think the 18 months interval
is a problem, it only
means that people skip one or two releases, in particular when they
(the releases) don't bring any significant/desired new functionality.
Sure, but that was steady complain by few guys on opensuse ML.
I can understand their pain when they have to contact their customers and
offer solutions, but my opinion on that is above.
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With servers is another story, but if you support
services that need
stability then use SLES, otherwise pull sleeves up and learn how to
adapt configuration to new release, or find other in the same position
and take over maintenance beyond 1.5 years.
Yep. That works fine too.
8 Nov
8 Nov
8:01 a.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] What's the latest on the strategy discussion?
Rajko M. wrote:
Understandably - it's extra effort, which could be avoided by having a
longer release cycle. Or one designed to cope well with gaps.
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On Sunday 07 November 2010 12:28:35 Per Jessen wrote:
Generally speaking, businesses prefer stability. Random unnecessary
change is bad for productivity and efficiency.
Somehow I suspect you don't deal with a lot
of business or
back-office end-users, Rajko.
No as IT persons do. I'm assembler in my company and I don't touch
even things that is easy to rectify, just because I'm not trained to
do so :)
I see people that hate the job and any piece of work place, including
computers. They don't want to learn more than one path how to
accomplish tasks they are paid for. They can't say to the boss the
truth, but go around and complain on anything possible. However, I
also don't think the 18 months interval is a problem, it
only means that people skip one or two releases, in particular when
they (the releases) don't bring any significant/desired new
functionality.
Sure, but that was steady complain by few guys on opensuse ML. With servers is another story, but if you support
services that
need stability then use SLES, otherwise pull sleeves up and learn
how to adapt configuration to new release, or find other in the
same position and take over maintenance beyond 1.5 years.
Yep. That works fine too. 
7 Nov
7 Nov
7:46 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] What's the latest on the strategy discussion?
Le 07/11/2010 18:09, Rajko M. a écrit :
With servers is another story, but if you support
services that need stability
then use SLES, otherwise pull sleeves up and learn how to adapt configuration
to new release, or find other in the same position and take over maintenance
beyond 1.5 years.
well. I could be possible to simply *document* how to maintain the few
basic applications exposed to the web - most of them not being
maintained anyway by openSUSE (php scripts).
If someboy is interested, we can open an other thread on this: how to
self - maintain a server.
But not here. You can also send me a mail privately if you think it
necessary, I could then open an other trhread
jdd
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8 Nov
8 Nov
5:50 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] What's the latest on the strategy discussion?
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
On Sunday, 2010-11-07 at 11:09 -0600, Rajko M. wrote:
Even a short cycle in desktops is a problem, because it means frequent
upgrades on many machines, lot of works. Complicated with the fact that
often we have to skip installing a version because it does not work right
in one machine or other, and we have to wait 10 months more.
On Sunday 07 November 2010 06:00:37 Carlos E. R.
wrote:
Although, the
drop of maintenance time to only 18 months has sent quite a
few looking for something else that offers at least 24 months.
Professional is fine word waking up memories of something that was good in
every piece it was installed.
And just remark on "short" maintenance term of 18 months.
For people that offer services based on openSUSE to SOHO market, it should be
no problem if they support only desktops. Having end users to learn few bits
ever 1.5 years should not be a problem, it can be seen as your active role to
keep customer up to the modern times demands. With servers is another story, but if you support
services that need stability
then use SLES, otherwise pull sleeves up and learn how to adapt configuration
to new release, or find other in the same position and take over maintenance
beyond 1.5 years.
Provided you can afford it, which is not always the case for small
busines, specially those where one person is fighting to install linux
against the "common sense" of installing windows. Installing oS is just
his time, installing SLES means reall support from the stablishment.
- --
Cheers,
Carlos E. R.
(from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" at Telcontar)
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4:35 p.m.
On 2010-11-05 Martin wrote:
Yes, that's what we do. Now why do we do it? We do want something right? So
what is that? What do we want to change in the world by releasing openSUSE?
If nothing, we'd better stop doing it... ;-)
(yes, we do want to bring something - something which is more open, more
flexible, more powerful, more professional, more productive. But how to say
that in one sentence?)
Fredag den 5. november 2010 14:43:50 skrev Jos
Poortvliet:
Sure. I'm not saying I like their mission so much it should be ours - we have
a different goal. What I like about their mission is that it is:
- ambitious
- has a GLOBAL goal
- gives direction and identity
- yet is broad enough not to exclude much
So for them, it is a good mission. We'd need a mission which has the same
properties yet breathes a different (but no smaller) ambition...
At the conf one piece of feedback was that we
need a single-sentence
mission to describe what we want - very much like
what fedora has:
Ah, smart people at the conference :-)
The Fedora Project's mission is to lead the
advancement of free and open
source software and content as a collaborative community.
I think I like their mission and it's also pretty correct
Well, their mission is quite sympathetic and I'm glad to have Fedora
around, but if you read between the lines it really means: "unproductive,
bleeding edge, experimental toy for geeks". And I'm pretty sure that most
of the openSUSE community wants something rather different - fortunately
most of the strategy discussion so far has confirmed this. - so we
brainstormed on what would fit openSUSE. Suggestions are very welcome, we
currently have:
The openSUSE project's mission is to unlock the posibilities of computers
to users around the globe using the power and flexibility of Linux.
but it's far from perfect. Somehow it should mention we focus on
flexibility and power ("make things as simple as possible but no
simpler"), it should be ambitious (eg worldwide blabla), focussed on
end-users etc - the requirements are clear as they come from the rest of
the strategy discusion. But now, how to phrase it in one sentence?
Sorry to keep repeating myself, but the keywords here should definitely be
productive, powerful and professional :-)
How about something along these lines:
"In the openSUSE project we work together to create a professional and
powerful Linux distribution, which lets people be productive."
9 Nov
9 Nov
12:55 p.m.
Mandag den 8. november 2010 16:35:59 skrev Jos Poortvliet:
On 2010-11-05 Martin wrote:
Man, I'm so glad you said that.
How about something along these lines:
"In the openSUSE project we work together to create a professional and
powerful Linux distribution, which lets people be productive."
Yes, that's what we do. Now why do we do it? We do want something right? So
what is that? What do we want to change in the world by releasing openSUSE?
If nothing, we'd better stop doing it... ;-) (yes, we do want to bring something - something which
is more open, more
flexible, more powerful, more professional, more productive. But how to say
that in one sentence?)
Here's a revision of my second version, e.g. minus the word 'professional' and
with a bit more of a 'why'.
"The openSUSE community works together to create useful and powerful
technologies, with the aim of enabling productive usage of Linux and free/open
source software."
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10 Nov
10 Nov
8:11 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: What's the latest on the strategy discussion?
On Tue, 09 Nov 2010 12:55:35 +0100, Martin Schlander wrote:
"The openSUSE community works together to create
useful and powerful
technologies, with the aim of enabling productive usage of Linux and
free/open source software."
I like this; the detail afterwards would (as I've mentioned in earlier
replies) need to include answers to the "for whom" question and define
"useful and powerful" in a meaningful way.
Jim
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5 Nov
5 Nov
7:16 p.m.
Jos Poortvliet wrote:
On 2010-11-05 Per wrote:
Who(o)ps, sorry about that, I was typoing from memory. Feel free to
omit an s from my last name :-)
I guess Joos
one jos, two joos? ;-)
At the conf one piece of feedback was that we need a
single-sentence
mission to describe what we want - very much like what fedora has:
The Fedora Project's mission is to lead the advancement of free and
open source software and content as a collaborative community.
I think I like their mission and it's also pretty correct - so we
brainstormed on what would fit openSUSE. Suggestions are very welcome,
we currently have:
The openSUSE project's mission is to unlock the posibilities of
computers to users around the globe using the power and flexibility of
Linux.
Hmm, I can't help thinking this is the kind of mostly pointless
corporate mission statement I've have presented with innumerable times
in my corporate past.
but it's far from perfect. Somehow it should
mention we focus on
flexibility and power ("make things as simple as possible but no
simpler"), it should be ambitious (eg worldwide blabla), focussed on
end-users etc - the requirements are clear as they come from the rest
of the strategy discusion. But now, how to phrase it in one sentence?
Have a lot of fun?
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8 Nov
8 Nov
4:42 p.m.
On 2010-11-05 Per wrote:
Hmmm. to check: do you think the same about the one Fedora has?
yeah but is that why openSUSE exists? Just to have fun? If it is, fine, of
course. I thought we had a slightly higher goal, like Bringing Something
Better Into This World.
Not everyone will have the exact same goal which will obviously ensure our
mission WILL be a bit wide, vague (and probably, because of that, corporate?).
But that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to define it, right?
Jos Poortvliet wrote:
Per Jesen? Wel, ok :D
But no problem, just thought it was funny :D
On 2010-11-05 Per wrote:
Who(o)ps, sorry about that, I was typoing from memory. Feel free to
omit an s from my last name :-) I guess Joos
one jos, two joos? ;-) At the conf
one piece of feedback was that we need a single-sentence
mission to describe what we want - very much like what fedora has:
The Fedora Project's mission is to lead the advancement of free and
open source software and content as a collaborative community.
I think I like their mission and it's also pretty correct - so we
brainstormed on what would fit openSUSE. Suggestions are very welcome,
we currently have:
The openSUSE project's mission is to unlock the posibilities of
computers to users around the globe using the power and flexibility of
Linux.
Hmm, I can't help thinking this is the kind of mostly pointless
corporate mission statement I've have presented with innumerable times
in my corporate past. but it's
far from perfect. Somehow it should mention we focus on
flexibility and power ("make things as simple as possible but no
simpler"), it should be ambitious (eg worldwide blabla), focussed on
end-users etc - the requirements are clear as they come from the rest
of the strategy discusion. But now, how to phrase it in one sentence?
Have a lot of fun? 
9 Nov
9 Nov
12:25 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] What's the latest on the strategy discussion?
If we try to differentiate ourselves from other linux distros, in my
opinion, we should try to be a real community distro...
A place where ideas are assest independent of whom emanetes them...
and where coders, packagers lend their skills to the community and
they are not the drivers of what goes in...
A place where your idea is rubbish cause you never commited code, you
never packaged something...
Maybe we should look into a kibbutz like model.
Alin
On 8 November 2010 15:42, Jos Poortvliet <jospoortvliet(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On 2010-11-05 Per wrote:
Hmmm. to check: do you think the same about the one Fedora has?
yeah but is that why openSUSE exists? Just to have fun? If it is, fine, of
course. I thought we had a slightly higher goal, like Bringing Something
Better Into This World.
Not everyone will have the exact same goal which will obviously ensure our
mission WILL be a bit wide, vague (and probably, because of that, corporate?).
But that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to define it, right?
--
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own taste. -- Marcel Duchamp
Without Questions there are no Answers!
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School of Physics, University College Dublin
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Jos Poortvliet wrote:
Per Jesen? Wel, ok :D
But no problem, just thought it was funny :D
On 2010-11-05 Per wrote:
Who(o)ps, sorry about that, I was typoing from memory. Feel free to
omit an s from my last name :-) I guess Joos
one jos, two joos? ;-) At the
conf one piece of feedback was that we need a single-sentence
mission to describe what we want - very much like what fedora has:
The Fedora Project's mission is to lead the advancement of free and
open source software and content as a collaborative community.
I think I like their mission and it's also pretty correct - so we
brainstormed on what would fit openSUSE. Suggestions are very welcome,
we currently have:
The openSUSE project's mission is to unlock the posibilities of
computers to users around the globe using the power and flexibility of
Linux.
Hmm, I can't help thinking this is the kind of mostly pointless
corporate mission statement I've have presented with innumerable times
in my corporate past. but
it's far from perfect. Somehow it should mention we focus on
flexibility and power ("make things as simple as possible but no
simpler"), it should be ambitious (eg worldwide blabla), focussed on
end-users etc - the requirements are clear as they come from the rest
of the strategy discusion. But now, how to phrase it in one sentence?
Have a lot of fun?
1:19 p.m.
Jos Poortvliet wrote:
Hmmm. to check: do you think the same about the one Fedora has?
If this is the one: "The Fedora Project's mission is to lead the
advancement of free and open source software and content as a
collaborative community.", then yes, I think that is also mostly
pointless waffle. It sounds grand, but does it _mean_ anything?
yeah but is that why openSUSE exists? Just to have fun? If it is,
fine, of course. I thought we had a slightly higher goal, like
Bringing Something Better Into This World.
I hope the projects aim will be to produce a high-quality, dependable
Linux distribution, and that we'll have a lot of fun doing it.
The openSUSE project's mission is to unlock the posibilities of
computers to users around the globe using the power and flexibility
of Linux.
Hmm, I can't help thinking this is the kind of mostly pointless
corporate mission statement I've have presented with innumerable
times in my corporate past. but it's far from perfect. Somehow it should
mention we focus on
flexibility and power ("make things as simple as possible but no
simpler"), it should be ambitious (eg worldwide blabla), focussed
on end-users etc - the requirements are clear as they come from the
rest of the strategy discusion. But now, how to phrase it in one
sentence?
Have a lot of fun? Not everyone will have the exact same goal which will
obviously ensure
our mission WILL be a bit wide, vague (and probably, because of that,
corporate?). But that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to define it,
right?
First, I think the important thing for a mission statement for a
volunteer community is to actually _say_ something. Second, the
mission statement isn't meant to express everyones individual goals,
it's meant to express just _one_ goal.
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3:08 p.m.
* Per Jessen <per(a)opensuse.org> [11-09-10 07:22]:
First, I think the important thing for a mission
statement for a
volunteer community is to actually _say_ something. Second, the
mission statement isn't meant to express everyones individual goals,
it's meant to express just _one_ goal.
Yes and the _one_ goal must be broad and encompassing, not narrow and
specific.
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9 Dec
9 Dec
1 a.m.
On Tuesday 09 November 2010 13:19:25 Per Jessen wrote:
Jos Poortvliet wrote:
Hmmm. to check: do you think the same about the one Fedora has?
If this is the one: "The Fedora Project's mission is to lead the
advancement of free and open source software and content as a
collaborative community.", then yes, I think that is also mostly
pointless waffle. It sounds grand, but does it _mean_ anything?
Acutally I read it as 'we advance technology' (which results in them shipping
bleeding edge stuff, even if it might break things). But on a second look, it
doesn't even say that. Maybe I was too enthousiastic about their mission :D
The openSUSE project's mission is to unlock the
posibilities of
computers to users around the globe using the power and flexibility
of Linux.
Hmm, I can't help thinking this is the kind of mostly pointless
corporate mission statement I've have presented with innumerable
times in my corporate past.
8 Nov
8 Nov
12:44 p.m.
Regarding mission, I just stumbled upon this:
The openSUSE project is a worldwide effort that promotes the use of Linux
everywhere. openSUSE creates one of the world's best Linux distributions,
working together in an open, transparent and friendly manner as part of the
worldwide Free and Open Source Software community.
http://en.opensuse.org/Portal:Project
Also, I found in an older presentation:
The openSUSE project is a worldwide community program sponsored by Novell that
promotes the us of Linux everywhere. The program provides free and easy access
to openSUSE. Here you can find and join a community of users and developers,
who all have the same goal in mind- to create and distribute the world's most
usable Linux.
openSUSE also provides the base for Novell's award winning SUSE Linux
Enterprise products.
Andreas
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12:47 p.m.
Hey,
On 11/8/10 12:44 PM, Andreas Jaeger wrote:
Regarding mission, I just stumbled upon this:
The openSUSE project is a worldwide effort that promotes the use of Linux
everywhere. openSUSE creates one of the world's best Linux distributions,
working together in an open, transparent and friendly manner as part of the
worldwide Free and Open Source Software community.
Which is a shortened version of the "We are" paragraph from the guiding
principles. The guiding principles already contain all the mission
statements we need i think. I fail to see why we need something else.
Henne
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12:51 p.m.
On Mon, 2010-11-08 at 12:47 +0100, Henne Vogelsang wrote:
Hey,
On 11/8/10 12:44 PM, Andreas Jaeger wrote:
The whole point of the strategy discussion is to help better elaborate
"who we are"... I think the shortened versions here look pretty good
and we should look at polishing it up rather than "coming up with a new
one".
I kind of hate the "we are the best" mantra, because everyone wants to
say they are the best. I'd rather replace it with something more
concrete like "we are the most flexible" or "we offer the most
choices"
or "we create with you in mind" or something to that effect that gives
the reader something more concrete to relate to. If they just read
"best", they'll say Why is this best compared to the other guy that
says "best"?
Bryen
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Regarding mission, I just stumbled upon this:
The openSUSE project is a worldwide effort that promotes the use of Linux
everywhere. openSUSE creates one of the world's best Linux distributions,
working together in an open, transparent and friendly manner as part of the
worldwide Free and Open Source Software community.
Which is a shortened version of the "We are" paragraph from the guiding
principles. The guiding principles already contain all the mission
statements we need i think. I fail to see why we need something else.
Henne
12:56 p.m.
Le 08/11/2010 12:47, Henne Vogelsang a écrit :
statements we need i think. I fail to see why we need
something else.
+1
jdd
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1:14 p.m.
Mandag den 8. november 2010 12:47:44 skrev Henne Vogelsang:
On 11/8/10 12:44 PM, Andreas Jaeger wrote:
These things say nothing other than that we're a community making a Linux
distribution. No useful information for anyone.
We really, really, really, really, really need something short and precise
which tells users and contributors (potential and existing) alike, *exactly*
what we're trying to do and what makes openSUSE different than the gazillion
other distros out there.
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Regarding mission, I just stumbled upon this:
The openSUSE project is a worldwide effort that promotes the use of Linux
everywhere. openSUSE creates one of the world's best Linux distributions,
working together in an open, transparent and friendly manner as part of
the worldwide Free and Open Source Software community.
Which is a shortened version of the "We are" paragraph from the guiding
principles. The guiding principles already contain all the mission
statements we need i think. I fail to see why we need something else.
1:18 p.m.
On Mon, 2010-11-08 at 13:14 +0100, Martin Schlander wrote:
Mandag den 8. november 2010 12:47:44 skrev Henne
Vogelsang:
We're never going to achieve "exactly" statement. Tht's what got us
in
trouble in the first place when we got too narrow with our definitions.
openSUSE as a project is very broad and flexible and offers many
benefits. We can try to specifiy what it is we do so well, but to say
it "exactly" will be chasing a pipe dream. We're just too damn good at
too many things. :-)
Bryen
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On 11/8/10 12:44 PM, Andreas Jaeger wrote:
These things say nothing other than that we're a community making a Linux
distribution. No useful information for anyone.
We really, really, really, really, really need something short and precise
which tells users and contributors (potential and existing) alike, *exactly*
what we're trying to do and what makes openSUSE different than the gazillion
other distros out there. Regarding mission, I just stumbled upon this:
The openSUSE project is a worldwide effort that promotes the use of Linux
everywhere. openSUSE creates one of the world's best Linux distributions,
working together in an open, transparent and friendly manner as part of
the worldwide Free and Open Source Software community.
Which is a shortened version of the "We are" paragraph from the guiding
principles. The guiding principles already contain all the mission
statements we need i think. I fail to see why we need something else. 
1:19 p.m.
Am Montag, 8. November 2010, 13:14:15 schrieb Martin Schlander:
Mandag den 8. november 2010 12:47:44 skrev Henne
Vogelsang:
Short and exact is often conflicting, this isn't math you know? =)
Karsten
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On 11/8/10 12:44 PM, Andreas Jaeger wrote:
These things say nothing other than that we're a community making a Linux
distribution. No useful information for anyone.
We really, really, really, really, really need something short and precise
which tells users and contributors (potential and existing) alike,
*exactly* what we're trying to do and what makes openSUSE different than
the gazillion other distros out there. Regarding mission, I just stumbled upon this:
The openSUSE project is a worldwide effort that promotes the use of
Linux everywhere. openSUSE creates one of the world's best Linux
distributions, working together in an open, transparent and friendly
manner as part of the worldwide Free and Open Source Software
community.
Which is a shortened version of the "We are" paragraph from the guiding
principles. The guiding principles already contain all the mission
statements we need i think. I fail to see why we need something else.
1:21 p.m.
Mandag den 8. november 2010 13:19:54 skrev Karsten König:
Am Montag, 8. November 2010, 13:14:15 schrieb Martin
Schlander:
Well.. if you guys get your way openSUSE will continue to be an anarchistic
mess without any direction or identity.. or success.
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Mandag den 8. november 2010 12:47:44 skrev Henne
Vogelsang:
Short and exact is often conflicting, this isn't math you know? =) On 11/8/10 12:44 PM, Andreas Jaeger wrote:
These things say nothing other than that we're a community making a Linux
distribution. No useful information for anyone.
We really, really, really, really, really need something short and
precise which tells users and contributors (potential and existing)
alike, *exactly* what we're trying to do and what makes openSUSE
different than the gazillion other distros out there. Regarding mission, I just stumbled upon this:
The openSUSE project is a worldwide effort that promotes the use of
Linux everywhere. openSUSE creates one of the world's best Linux
distributions, working together in an open, transparent and friendly
manner as part of the worldwide Free and Open Source Software
community.
Which is a shortened version of the "We are" paragraph from the guiding
principles. The guiding principles already contain all the mission
statements we need i think. I fail to see why we need something else.
2:09 p.m.
Le 08/11/2010 13:21, Martin Schlander a écrit :
Mandag den 8. november 2010 13:19:54 skrev Karsten
König:
Well.. if you guys get your way openSUSE will continue
to be an anarchistic
mess without any direction or identity.. or success.
please, don't start again with this
jdd
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9 Nov
9 Nov
11:20 a.m.
Am Montag, 8. November 2010, 13:21:49 schrieb Martin Schlander:
Mandag den 8. november 2010 13:19:54 skrev Karsten
König:
Fair enough, how about getting the strategy document done and 'signed' first
and afterwards start some kind of competition for a good 3 lines
summary/catchphrase and the winner gets some 'Thank you' gift, like one of the
plush geekos =)
Cheers,
Karsten
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Am Montag, 8. November 2010, 13:14:15 schrieb
Martin Schlander:
Well.. if you guys get your way openSUSE will continue to be an anarchistic
mess without any direction or identity.. or success. Mandag den 8. november 2010 12:47:44 skrev Henne
Vogelsang:
Short and exact is often conflicting, this isn't math you know? =) On 11/8/10 12:44 PM, Andreas Jaeger wrote:
> Regarding mission, I just stumbled upon this:
>
> The openSUSE project is a worldwide effort that promotes the use of
> Linux everywhere. openSUSE creates one of the world's best Linux
> distributions, working together in an open, transparent and
> friendly manner as part of the worldwide Free and Open Source
> Software community.
Which is a shortened version of the "We are" paragraph from the
guiding principles. The guiding principles already contain all the
mission statements we need i think. I fail to see why we need
something else.
These things say nothing other than that we're a community making a
Linux distribution. No useful information for anyone.
We really, really, really, really, really need something short and
precise which tells users and contributors (potential and existing)
alike, *exactly* what we're trying to do and what makes openSUSE
different than the gazillion other distros out there.
12:07 p.m.
Tirsdag den 9. november 2010 11:20:50 skrev Karsten König:
how about getting the strategy document done and
'signed'
first and afterwards start some kind of competition for a good 3 lines
summary/catchphrase
I thought we were already at that point :-)
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9 Dec
9 Dec
1:12 a.m.
On Tuesday 09 November 2010 12:07:03 Martin Schlander wrote:
Tirsdag den 9. november 2010 11:20:50 skrev Karsten
König:
Well, yes, most of the strategy is pretty much fixed as there weren't many
comments on the last draft. It still needs finishing up (sorry for not doing
that...) and we can publish it. I felt we might need this 1-sentence thing
first, but maybe it's true that we can just move on without that for now.
Still I'll give a short-summary a shot based on the many comments in this
thread... Thanks all for sharing your thoughts!
how about getting the strategy document done and
'signed'
first and afterwards start some kind of competition for a good 3 lines
summary/catchphrase
I thought we were already at that point :-)
8 Nov
8 Nov
1:25 p.m.
Hey,
On 11/8/10 1:14 PM, Martin Schlander wrote:
Mandag den 8. november 2010 12:47:44 skrev Henne
Vogelsang:
Well not useful if you already know that no. But if you don't its a
pretty good description of who we are...
On 11/8/10 12:44 PM, Andreas Jaeger wrote:
These things say nothing other than that we're a community making a Linux
distribution. No useful information for anyone. Regarding mission, I just stumbled upon this:
The openSUSE project is a worldwide effort that promotes the use of Linux
everywhere. openSUSE creates one of the world's best Linux distributions,
working together in an open, transparent and friendly manner as part of
the worldwide Free and Open Source Software community.
Which is a shortened version of the "We are" paragraph from the guiding
principles. The guiding principles already contain all the mission
statements we need i think. I fail to see why we need something else. We really, really, really, really, really need
something short and precise
which tells users and contributors (potential and existing) alike, *exactly*
what we're trying to do and what makes openSUSE different than the gazillion
other distros out there.
I agree but this is something completely different and we were already
on track with that. What happened? Why we are engaging in mission
statements for the project now? Looks like ADD to me...
Henne
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1:32 p.m.
Mandag den 8. november 2010 13:25:34 skrev Henne Vogelsang:
On 11/8/10 1:14 PM, Martin Schlander wrote:
The mission statement is nothing more than a short summary of the strategy in
one or two sentences imo.
When people ask "why openSUSE?" you can't just point them to a 2-3 page
document.
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We really, really, really, really, really need
something short and
precise which tells users and contributors (potential and existing)
alike, *exactly* what we're trying to do and what makes openSUSE
different than the gazillion other distros out there.
I agree but this is something completely different and we were already
on track with that. What happened? Why we are engaging in mission
statements for the project now? Looks like ADD to me...
2:10 p.m.
Le 08/11/2010 13:32, Martin Schlander a écrit :
When people ask "why openSUSE?" you
can't just point them to a 2-3 page
document.
weel, simply say 'best linux'
:-)
jdd
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2:59 p.m.
On 11/08/2010 08:10 AM, jdd wrote:
Le 08/11/2010 13:32, Martin Schlander a écrit :
> When people ask "why openSUSE?" you can't just point them to a 2-3
page
> document.
openSUSE is a good choice that is easy to install,
easy to use, high
quality, and professional.
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9 Dec
9 Dec
1:21 a.m.
On Monday 08 November 2010 12:47:44 Henne Vogelsang wrote:
Hey,
On 11/8/10 12:44 PM, Andreas Jaeger wrote:
Ok.
So building on that, taking a few comments from this thread:
The openSUSE project is a worldwide effort that promotes the use of Linux
everywhere. openSUSE maintains and develops a packaging and distribution
infrastructure on which it creates one of the world's most flexible and
powerful Linux distributions, working together in an open, transparent and
friendly manner as part of the worldwide Free and Open Source Software
community.
- we're international
- we promote linux EVERYWHERE
- we build infrastructure
- we have created a very flexible and powerful linux distro (a powertool that
might be a bit heavy on Aunt Tilly, but she can ask Uncle Tom for help if
there are issues)
- we work together in an open, transparant etc etc etc way
The change is actually very minor, I think most is covered with this and we
don't deviate much from what we have. Should be quite acceptable. And for who
wants to read more, we have the rest of the strategy which I'll be updating
now.
Cheers,
Jos
Regarding mission, I just stumbled upon this:
The openSUSE project is a worldwide effort that promotes the use of Linux
everywhere. openSUSE creates one of the world's best Linux distributions,
working together in an open, transparent and friendly manner as part of
the worldwide Free and Open Source Software community.
Which is a shortened version of the "We are" paragraph from the guiding
principles. The guiding principles already contain all the mission
statements we need i think. I fail to see why we need something else. Henne
1:51 a.m.
On Thursday 09 December 2010 01:21:18 Jos Poortvliet wrote:
On Monday 08 November 2010 12:47:44 Henne Vogelsang
wrote:
Ok. Here goes. Attached the almost-final draft. One painpoint left that I see:
"openSUSE. Linux for grown-ups". I like it, but a comment from Helen South
struck me:
Hey,
On 11/8/10 12:44 PM, Andreas Jaeger wrote:
Ok.
So building on that, taking a few comments from this thread:
The openSUSE project is a worldwide effort that promotes the use of Linux
everywhere. openSUSE maintains and develops a packaging and distribution
infrastructure on which it creates one of the world's most flexible and
powerful Linux distributions, working together in an open, transparent and
friendly manner as part of the worldwide Free and Open Source Software
community.
- we're international
- we promote linux EVERYWHERE
- we build infrastructure
- we have created a very flexible and powerful linux distro (a powertool
that might be a bit heavy on Aunt Tilly, but she can ask Uncle Tom for
help if there are issues)
- we work together in an open, transparant etc etc etc way
The change is actually very minor, I think most is covered with this and we
don't deviate much from what we have. Should be quite acceptable. And for
who wants to read more, we have the rest of the strategy which I'll be
updating now.
Cheers,
Jos
> Henne Regarding mission, I just stumbled upon this:
The openSUSE project is a worldwide effort that promotes the use of
Linux everywhere. openSUSE creates one of the world's best Linux
distributions, working together in an open, transparent and friendly
manner as part of the worldwide Free and Open Source Software
community.
Which is a shortened version of the "We are" paragraph from the guiding
principles. The guiding principles already contain all the mission
statements we need i think. I fail to see why we need something else. Not keen on 'Linux for Grown-Ups'.
Odd combination of arrogant and boring.
check out the competition
http://www.insidesocal.com/click/2010/05/sloganeering-in-linuxunix---wh.ht
ml
Alternatives are hard - "Open Productivity" is one thing I thought of. or
more casually "Get Stuff Done." "Achieve More." "Customize Your
Toolbox"
Maybe we should change this into something we're more comfortable with, it'll
be visible so it will be picked up. So ideas on this are welcome.
Otherwise, I think we have something that has had a lot of input and thus
should be something which is pretty good. Obviously we can do revisions in the
future, however, I think it's ready for a vote by the openSUSE membership.
Agreed?
Jos
OpenSUSE Mission Statement
(one paragraph summary)
The openSUSE project is a worldwide effort that promotes the use of Linux everywhere.
openSUSE develops and maintains a packaging and distribution infrastructure on which it
creates one of the world's most flexible and powerful Linux distributions, working
together in an open, transparent and friendly manner as part of the worldwide Free and
Open Source Software community.
openSUSE - Linux for grown-ups
The following document is a statement describing the openSUSE users, community, products
and goals. The document is for internal use and guides communication and decision making
within the community. It does not aim to limit anyone within the community to work on what
they want!
What is openSUSE
We are the openSUSE Community - friendly, welcoming, vibrant, and active. The openSUSE
Project provides an open and innovative atmosphere to collaboratively work on a variety of
distribution-related and packaging technologies and products.
Our development philosophy focuses on stability and flexibility, innovative community
infrastructure, and seeking collaboration with the wider Free and Open Source community.
Below more details on our community, product and infrastructure.
Community and People
The openSUSE community is the heart of the openSUSE project.
* We encourage and enable the users in our community to contribute to openSUSE and shape
its future, lowering barriers to particpation in our community wherever possible.
* The openSUSE community collaborates with other communities providing the best technology
Free Software has to offer.
* We care about contributing our improvements to upstream projects.
* We work closely with companies in our ecosystem that provide additional value,
including support and enterprise offerings on top of or derived from openSUSE
technology.
* Our community aims to foster the development of Free and Open Source Software while
taking a pragmatic approach to what we ship to our users, allowing them to use proprietary
alternatives if they choose to.
For details see http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Strategy_Community_Statement
Distribution
The openSUSE distribution offers a powerful, stable core and enables everybody to
contribute additional packages and tools through the openSUSE Build Service: freedom and
choice are our keywords.
The openSUSE software distribution offers:
* A powerful, stable core
* Rich out of the box experience based on sane defaults with powerful tools for system
configuration and customatization
* Flexibilty and freedom of choice with a wide software selection.
* Timed releases and an easy upgrade path between maintained versions of the official
distribution
* Seamless integration and compatibility with other operating systems and tools
The main focus of the openSUSE software distribution is on workstations, laptops, netbooks
and servers.
Tools and services
The freely available openSUSE tools and services aim to support the collaborative
development process within openSUSE and we encourage other projects to leverage them for
their own usage.
* We take advantage of our infrastructure to make up to date software available for
multiple current releases for a variety of distributions including older releases of
openSUSE
* We provide technology to easily build openSUSE deriviates in the form of live images,
appliances and even full distributions
* We share our infrastructure technology such as openSUSE Build Service with others,
providing them with tools to create whole distributions or single packages for a variety
of platforms
Target users
We cater for users who are interested in computers and want to experiment, learn or get
work done. We offer them a stable and enjoyable computing experience which does not limit
their freedom of choice, offering sane defaults and easy configuration.
What do we not focus on?
The openSUSE community has its goals and targets; consequently there are things that are
not in the direct focus of our community. This does of course not mean it is not possible
to pursue any of those goals from within the openSUSE project or using the openSUSE tools
- we are a Free and Open Source Software community and anything is possible.
openSUSE does not:
* Oversimplify the system to the point where configuring it becomes harder. We prefer
flexibility over an (extreme) focus on ease of use.
* Always having the latest and greatest in the shipped releases. Through the Build Service
you can install the latest packages or whole software groups built for your openSUSE
version, preserving the stability and integrity of the rest of your installation.
* We do not maintain large distribution-specific patches as we want to upstream as much of
our work as possible.
* Work on Mobile or embedded devices.
* Offer enterprise-level support. We don't work on software or hardware certification,
indemnification, OEM installations and the like. However we ensure our infrastructure
enables our partners to offer these services.
2:41 a.m.
On 09/12/2010 11:51, Jos Poortvliet wrote:
[pruned]
Ok. Here goes. Attached the almost-final draft.
[pruned]
I think there are areas which need a bit more attention.
First:
Target users
We cater for users who are interested in computers and want to
experiment, learn or get work done.
The most important target audience is mentioned last - ie those who want
to get work done. Those who want to get work done should be mentioned first.
Second:
What do we not focus on?
The openSUSE community has its goals and targets; consequently there are
things that are not in the direct focus of our community. *This does of
course not mean* it is not possible
The part in bold lettering should read: "Of course this does not mean it
is not possible......".
Three:
openSUSE does not:
* Oversimplify the system to the point where configuring it becomes
harder. We prefer flexibility over an (extreme) focus on ease of use.
* Always *having* the latest and greatest in the shipped releases.
The word here should be "*have*" and not "having" so that the whole
thing would read, "openSUSE does not always have the latest and
greatest......".
For your consideration.
BC
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9:33 a.m.
On Thu, 9 Dec 2010 01:51:16 +0100
Jos Poortvliet <jospoortvliet(a)gmail.com> wrote:
openSUSE - Linux for grown-ups
Linux with "adult" content?
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5 p.m.
Op 09-12-10 09:33, pb(a)seat-1.com schreef:
On Thu, 9 Dec 2010 01:51:16 +0100
Jos Poortvliet <jospoortvliet(a)gmail.com> wrote:
LOL...
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openSUSE - Linux for grown-ups
Linux with "adult" content?
9 Dec
9 Dec
2:23 p.m.
"openSUSE. Linux for grown-ups". I like it,
but a comment from Helen South
struck me:
> Not keen on 'Linux for Grown-Ups'.
> Odd combination of arrogant and boring.
openSUSE: Your Linux distribution
??
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10 Dec
10 Dec
10:41 a.m.
On Thursday 09 December 2010 14:23:03 Robert Schweikert wrote:
We do more than a distro :D
"openSUSE. Linux for grown-ups". I like it, but a comment from Helen
South
struck me:
> Not keen on 'Linux for Grown-Ups'.
> Odd combination of arrogant and boring.
openSUSE: Your Linux distribution ??
11:17 a.m.
Jos Poortvliet wrote:
On Thursday 09 December 2010 14:23:03 Robert
Schweikert wrote:
We do more than a distro :D
Yes, but what should be our ultimate objective?
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"openSUSE. Linux for grown-ups". I like it, but a comment from
Helen South
struck me:
> Not keen on 'Linux for Grown-Ups'.
> Odd combination of arrogant and boring.
openSUSE: Your Linux distribution
1:26 p.m.
On Friday 10 December 2010 11:17:17 Per Jessen wrote:
Jos Poortvliet wrote:
well that's what the proposal
says:
"The openSUSE project is a worldwide effort that promotes the use of Linux
everywhere."
On Thursday 09 December 2010 14:23:03 Robert
Schweikert wrote:
We do more than a distro :D
Yes, but what should be our ultimate objective?
"openSUSE. Linux for grown-ups". I like it, but a comment from
Helen South
struck me:
> Not keen on 'Linux for Grown-Ups'.
> Odd combination of arrogant and boring.
openSUSE: Your Linux distribution
2:48 p.m.
On 12/10/2010 04:41 AM, Jos Poortvliet wrote:
On Thursday 09 December 2010 14:23:03 Robert
Schweikert wrote:
We do more than a distro :D
And how does "Linux for Grown-Ups" reflect that?
BTW, my kids have openSUSE on their computers, maybe they shouldn't as
they are definitely not grown up ;)
"openSUSE. Linux for grown-ups". I like it, but a comment from Helen
South
struck me:
> Not keen on 'Linux for Grown-Ups'.
> Odd combination of arrogant and boring.
openSUSE: Your Linux distribution
> ??
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781-464-8147
Novell
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14 Dec
14 Dec
1:18 p.m.
On Friday 10 December 2010 14:48:38 Robert Schweikert wrote:
On 12/10/2010 04:41 AM, Jos Poortvliet wrote:
You have an alternative that DOES reflect that openSUSE is more of a pro
distro compared to many others yet doesn't exclude people just because they
like to play with it or use it productively or or or...
This one seems to only exclude kids who don't want to be grown-ups, not to bad
compared to the "openSUSE: the professional solution" excluding most home
users or "openSUSE: Your Linux Distribution" which says nothing...
On Thursday 09 December 2010 14:23:03 Robert
Schweikert wrote:
We do more than a distro :D
And how does "Linux for Grown-Ups" reflect that?
"openSUSE. Linux for grown-ups". I like it, but a comment from Helen
South
struck me:
> Not keen on 'Linux for Grown-Ups'.
> Odd combination of arrogant and boring.
openSUSE: Your Linux distribution BTW, my kids have openSUSE on their computers, maybe
they shouldn't as
they are definitely not grown up ;)
>> ??
9 Dec
9 Dec
2:08 a.m.
* Jos Poortvliet <jospoortvliet(a)gmail.com> [12-08-10 19:22]:
- we have created a very flexible and powerful linux
distro (a powertool that
might be a bit heavy on Aunt Tilly, but she can ask Uncle Tom for help if
there are issues)
Some of the US populous may take exception to the use of "Uncle Tom". I
would suggest another name. sugg.. Aunt Tilly and Uncle Jack.
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2:41 a.m.
On Thursday 09 December 2010 02:08:17 Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Jos Poortvliet <jospoortvliet(a)gmail.com>
[12-08-10 19:22]:
Yeah, I just wrote
the first name that came to mind... sorry...
- we have created a very flexible and powerful
linux distro (a powertool
that might be a bit heavy on Aunt Tilly, but she can ask Uncle Tom for
help if there are issues)
Some of the US populous may take exception to the use of "Uncle Tom". I
would suggest another name. sugg.. Aunt Tilly and Uncle Jack.
4:39 p.m.
Torsdag den 9. december 2010 01:21:18 skrev Jos Poortvliet:
So building on that, taking a few comments from this
thread:
The openSUSE project is a worldwide effort that promotes the use of Linux
everywhere. openSUSE maintains and develops a packaging and distribution
infrastructure on which it creates one of the world's most flexible and
powerful Linux distributions, working together in an open, transparent and
friendly manner as part of the worldwide Free and Open Source Software
community.
- we're international
- we promote linux EVERYWHERE
- we build infrastructure
- we have created a very flexible and powerful linux distro (a powertool
that might be a bit heavy on Aunt Tilly, but she can ask Uncle Tom for
help if there are issues)
- we work together in an open, transparant etc etc etc way
That's supposed to be the mission statement?
It's too long and names like Aunt Tilly or Uncle Whatever have no business
being in anything official.
Shortened, no nonsense version:
"The openSUSE community maintains and develops a packaging and distribution
infrastructure on which we create a flexible and powerful Linux distribution -
working together in an open, transparent and friendly manner."
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4:44 p.m.
Torsdag den 9. december 2010 16:39:10 skrev Martin Schlander:
Shortened, no nonsense version:
"The openSUSE community maintains and develops a packaging and distribution
infrastructure on which we create a flexible and powerful Linux
distribution - working together in an open, transparent and friendly
manner."
I was too quick on the send button. This statement makes no mention of
stability/productivity at all - which I think should be at the very core of
the mission statement.
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4:49 p.m.
Martin Schlander wrote:
Torsdag den 9. december 2010 16:39:10 skrev Martin
Schlander:
Maintaining and developing a packaging and distribution infrastructure
is no doubt important, but does it really belong in the mission
statement?
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Shortened, no nonsense version:
"The openSUSE community maintains and develops a packaging and
distribution infrastructure on which we create a flexible and
powerful Linux
distribution - working together in an open, transparent and friendly
manner."
I was too quick on the send button. This statement makes no mention of
stability/productivity at all - which I think should be at the very
core of the mission statement.
10 Dec
10 Dec
2:09 a.m.
On Thursday, December 09, 2010 09:49:19 am Per Jessen wrote:
Maintaining and developing a packaging and
distribution infrastructure
is no doubt important, but does it really belong in the mission
statement?
It should be.
It is one of advantages that openSUSE has.
Build Service is a packaging system that can serve any software or
distribution developer and it is our big plus. It gives weight to statements
that call for cross distribution collaboration.
Apropos, if we look on Build Service we have long term commitment to cross
distribution collaboration, which is way to go, instead of splitting efforts
in smaller and smaller pieces as it is now.
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9:55 a.m.
On Thursday, December 09, 2010 09:49:19 am Per Jessen
wrote:
Doesn't this imply that we now have 2 distinct products: a build service
whose primarily market is the FOSS development community; and a distribution
whose primary market is the Linux end users. There is overlap between these
groups but people who use the build service do not necessarily need to use
OS, and I'm fairly certain a majority of users don't use the build service.
These two groups of people are looking for different things when they come
to openSUSE.
To cover them both adequately in a single mission statement is going to
demand a high level statement (e.g. be the best in the world at building
Linux distributions) with OS as our primary example (flagship) of this
expertise. This would be a significant change in focus (OS as the primary
product, build service as a tool we've built to do it which you can also use
if you want).
David
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Maintaining and developing a packaging and
distribution infrastructure
is no doubt important, but does it really belong in the mission
statement?
It should be.
It is one of advantages that openSUSE has.
Build Service is a packaging system that can serve any software or
distribution developer and it is our big plus. It gives weight to
statements
that call for cross distribution collaboration.
Apropos, if we look on Build Service we have long term commitment to cross
distribution collaboration, which is way to go, instead of splitting
efforts
in smaller and smaller pieces as it is now.
10:14 a.m.
Administrator wrote:
That is I was thinking too. Besides, if we were to list all our
advantages in the mission statement, well ...
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On Thursday,
December 09, 2010 09:49:19 am Per Jessen wrote:
Doesn't this imply that we now have 2 distinct products: a build
service whose primarily market is the FOSS development community; and
a distribution whose primary market is the Linux end users. Maintaining and developing a packaging and
distribution
infrastructure is no doubt important, but does it really belong in
the mission statement?
It should be.
It is one of advantages that openSUSE has.
Build Service is a packaging system that can serve any software or
distribution developer and it is our big plus. It gives weight to
statements that call for cross distribution collaboration.
Apropos, if we look on Build Service we have long term commitment to
cross distribution collaboration, which is way to go, instead of
splitting efforts in smaller and smaller pieces as it is now.
10:43 a.m.
On Thursday 09 December 2010 16:39:10 Martin Schlander wrote:
Torsdag den 9. december 2010 01:21:18 skrev Jos
Poortvliet:
The statement should only be the text part, not the bullet points I wrote
below it to explain...
so:
So building on that, taking a few comments from
this thread:
The openSUSE project is a worldwide effort that promotes the use of
Linux everywhere. openSUSE maintains and develops a packaging and
distribution infrastructure on which it creates one of the world's most
flexible and powerful Linux distributions, working together in an open,
transparent and friendly manner as part of the worldwide Free and Open
Source Software community.
- we're international
- we promote linux EVERYWHERE
- we build infrastructure
- we have created a very flexible and powerful linux distro (a powertool
that might be a bit heavy on Aunt Tilly, but she can ask Uncle Tom for
help if there are issues)
- we work together in an open, transparant etc etc etc way
That's supposed to be the mission statement?
It's too long and names like Aunt Tilly or Uncle Whatever have no business
being in anything official.
Shortened, no nonsense version:
"The openSUSE community maintains and develops a packaging and distribution
infrastructure on which we create a flexible and powerful Linux
distribution - working together in an open, transparent and friendly
manner." The openSUSE project is a worldwide effort that
promotes the use of
Linux everywhere. openSUSE maintains and develops a packaging and
distribution infrastructure on which it creates one of the world's most
flexible and powerful Linux distributions, working together in an open,
transparent and friendly manner as part of the worldwide Free and Open
Source Software community.
Seems rather complete, right?
11:21 a.m.
Jos Poortvliet wrote:
The statement should only be the text part, not the
bullet points I
wrote below it to explain...
so:
I'd like to suggest shortening/sharpening it a bit:
The openSUSE project is a worldwide effort to create the world's most
flexible and powerful Linux distribution, working together in an open,
transparent and friendly manner as part of the worldwide Free and Open
Source Software community.
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The openSUSE project is a worldwide effort that
promotes the use of
Linux everywhere. openSUSE maintains and develops a packaging and
distribution infrastructure on which it creates one of the world's
most flexible and powerful Linux distributions, working together in
an open, transparent and friendly manner as part of the worldwide
Free and Open Source Software community.
Seems rather complete, right?
11:29 a.m.
On 10/12/2010 21:21, Per Jessen wrote:
Jos Poortvliet wrote:
This sounds like it is expressing the same sentiments as, "I'm from the
government. I am here to help you."
BC
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The statement should only be the text part, not
the bullet points I
wrote below it to explain...
so:
I'd like to suggest shortening/sharpening it a bit:
The openSUSE project is a worldwide effort to create the world's most
flexible and powerful Linux distribution, working together in an open,
transparent and friendly manner as part of the worldwide Free and Open
Source Software community. The openSUSE project is a worldwide effort that
promotes the use of
Linux everywhere. openSUSE maintains and develops a packaging and
distribution infrastructure on which it creates one of the world's
most flexible and powerful Linux distributions, working together in
an open, transparent and friendly manner as part of the worldwide
Free and Open Source Software community.
Seems rather complete, right?
11:37 a.m.
Basil Chupin wrote:
On 10/12/2010 21:21, Per Jessen wrote:
Can't really be helped Basil, it was mostly designed by comittee.
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Jos Poortvliet wrote:
This sounds like it is expressing the same sentiments as, "I'm from
the government. I am here to help you." The statement should only be the text part, not
the bullet points I
wrote below it to explain...
so:
I'd like to suggest shortening/sharpening it a bit:
The openSUSE project is a worldwide effort to create the world's
most flexible and powerful Linux distribution, working together in an
open, transparent and friendly manner as part of the worldwide Free
and Open Source Software community. The openSUSE project is a worldwide effort that
promotes the use
of Linux everywhere. openSUSE maintains and develops a packaging
and distribution infrastructure on which it creates one of the
world's most flexible and powerful Linux distributions, working
together in
an open, transparent and friendly manner as part of the worldwide
Free and Open Source Software community.
Seems rather complete, right?
12:16 p.m.
On 10/12/2010 21:37, Per Jessen wrote:
Basil Chupin wrote:
:-D
True.
BC
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On 10/12/2010 21:21, Per Jessen wrote:
Can't really be helped Basil, it
was mostly designed by comittee. Jos Poortvliet wrote:
This sounds like it is expressing the same
sentiments as, "I'm from
the government. I am here to help you." The statement should only be the text part, not
the bullet points I
wrote below it to explain...
so:
> The openSUSE project is a worldwide effort that promotes the use
> of Linux everywhere. openSUSE maintains and develops a packaging
> and distribution infrastructure on which it creates one of the
> world's most flexible and powerful Linux distributions, working
> together in
> an open, transparent and friendly manner as part of the worldwide
> Free and Open Source Software community.
Seems rather complete, right?
I'd like to suggest shortening/sharpening it a
bit:
The openSUSE project is a worldwide effort to create the world's
most flexible and powerful Linux distribution, working together in an
open, transparent and friendly manner as part of the worldwide Free
and Open Source Software community.
12:35 p.m.
On Fri, 10 Dec 2010 22:16:14 +1100
Basil Chupin <blchupin(a)iinet.net.au> and others wrote:
>>>>> The openSUSE project is a
worldwide effort that promotes the use
>>>>> ...
As a potential user or community member, would I be attracted by such a statement?
No.
... by a claim like "openSUSE ist the most usable Linux distribution" ?
Yes.
It might be only a claim but at least it shows that they care and it creates some hope
that the claim may be fullfilled. It's also makes a perfect internal decision guide
line.
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1:27 p.m.
On Friday 10 December 2010 12:35:19 pb(a)seat-1.com wrote:
On Fri, 10 Dec 2010 22:16:14 +1100
Basil Chupin <blchupin(a)iinet.net.au> and others wrote:
But that claim is marketing, not our mission. Remember, a mission is internal.
It's what we use to tell potential new contributors why we do what we do.
>>>>> The openSUSE project is a
worldwide effort that promotes the use
>>>>>
>>>>> ...
As a potential user or community member, would I be attracted by such a
statement?
No.
... by a claim like "openSUSE ist the most usable Linux distribution" ?
Yes.
It might be only a claim but at least it shows that they care and it
creates some hope that the claim may be fullfilled. It's also makes a
perfect internal decision guide line.
1:55 p.m.
Fredag den 10. december 2010 13:27:54 skrev Jos Poortvliet:
Remember, a mission is
internal. It's what we use to tell potential new contributors why we do
what we do.
I have to disagree here in the strongest possible terms :-)
The mission is what we tell _all_ our stakeholders, when we want to explain
what openSUSE is all about - that means end-users, contributors, sponsors, the
wider FOSS-community in general, upstream, Attachmate suits, etc.
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2:53 p.m.
On 12/10/2010 07:55 AM, Martin Schlander wrote:
Fredag den 10. december 2010 13:27:54 skrev Jos
Poortvliet:
Yes, strongly agree with Martin's statement.
Robert
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Remember, a mission is
internal. It's what we use to tell potential new contributors why we do
what we do.
I have to disagree here in the strongest possible terms :-)
The mission is what we tell _all_ our stakeholders, when we want to explain
what openSUSE is all about - that means end-users, contributors, sponsors, the
wider FOSS-community in general, upstream, Attachmate suits, etc. 
4:42 p.m.
On Fri, 2010-12-10 at 13:27 +0100, Jos Poortvliet wrote:
But that claim is marketing, not our mission.
Remember, a mission is internal.
It's what we use to tell potential new contributors why we do what we do.
What's wrong with marketing? - It's needed in this day and age.
I have one for you:
openSUSE - Omnipotent Linux.
-----------------------------
http://www.dictionary.net/omnipotent
omnipotent adj : having unlimited power [syn: almighty, all-powerful]
Source: WordNet (r) 2.0
//Bjørn
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6:27 p.m.
Le 10/12/2010 16:42, Bjørn Lie a écrit :
openSUSE - Omnipotent Linux.
openSUSE: You master the world
:-)
wait, men, what ever you write, on three lines, this will never mean
anything.
We can say:
openSUSE: You master the open source world
(yes I know Free software/open source, but what can we do)
but we *have* to say immediately after how we do:
* a powerfull friendly Linux distribution
* a powerfull, open to any open source programme build service
* a vibrant community all over the world
(...)
jdd
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1:51 p.m.
Fredag den 10. december 2010 10:43:52 skrev Jos Poortvliet:
The statement should only be the text part, not the
bullet points I wrote
below it to explain...
so:
It seems a bit vague and off-point to me.
The first part about promoting Linux everywhere is unnecessary filler imho.
I don't like the emphasis on flexible - cuz I don't think we can deliver on
it. Gentoo and Arch are flexible - openSUSE is considered by many Linux users
to be particularly *in*flexible - at least compared to the "do-it-yourself"
line of distros.
All it says about the distro itself - which is the only thing 99% of people
will care about - is "flexible and powerful", so in the current form there's
not much differentiating us from Fedora or Debian or others. I would suggest
to add something about stability/productiveness and up-to-date-ness.
And I'd mention the distro before the tools and infrastructure. It makes it
seem like the distro is secondary.
It's not made absolutely clear that openSUSE is a community distro, welcoming
contributions from anyone. All it says is that whoever is creating openSUSE is
working together in an open manner.
I also don't like the comparison to others. E.g. "one of the world's this and
that". The mission statement should just say what _we_ want to do.
In other words it should look like this:
---------------------------
The openSUSE community invites everyone to join us in creating a powerful, up
to date and productive Linux distribution plus distribution building
infrastructure. We work together in an open, transparent and friendly manner
as part of the worldwide Free and Open Source Software community.
---------------------------
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The openSUSE project is a worldwide effort that
promotes the use of
Linux everywhere. openSUSE maintains and develops a packaging and
distribution infrastructure on which it creates one of the world's most
flexible and powerful Linux distributions, working together in an open,
transparent and friendly manner as part of the worldwide Free and Open
Source Software community.
Seems rather complete, right?
11 Dec
11 Dec
2:55 a.m.
On Friday, December 10, 2010 06:51:15 am Martin Schlander wrote:
The openSUSE community invites everyone to join us in
creating a powerful,
up to date and productive Linux distribution plus distribution building
infrastructure. We work together in an open, transparent and friendly
manner as part of the worldwide Free and Open Source Software community.
I would only scramble a bit the sentence, leaving out "transparent" (I can't
imagine open without transparent and vice versa),
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The openSUSE community invites everyone that wants to work in open and
friendly way to join creation of a powerful, up to date, productive Linux
distribution based on Free and Open Source Software.
Our advantages are Build Service, for simple creation of software packages or
whole distributions, YaST and MirrorBrain, providing first class software
management with top rated security, strong web infrastructure covering all
other aspects of software development and use.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I advocate bullet points as better way to present information, so the similar
content:
The openSUSE community invites everyone:
* software developers
* artists and web designers
* writers
* people with ideas
to join creation of a powerful, up to date, productive Linux distribution
based on Free and Open Source Software.
Our advantages are:
* Build Service, for simple creation of software packages or whole
distributions,
* YaST and MirrorBrain, providing first class software management with top
rated security.
* Strong web infrastructure with:
** documentation servers,
** user help forums, mail lists and live help on IRC,
** bug reporting and feature requests sites
** collaboration wikis in multiple languages
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12 Dec
12 Dec
1:26 p.m.
Rajko M. wrote:
On Friday, December 10, 2010 06:51:15 am Martin
Schlander wrote:
Hmm, I can - there are plenty of "open source projects" out there, where
e.g. the project organisation is completely non-transparent.
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The openSUSE community invites everyone to join
us in creating a
powerful, up to date and productive Linux distribution plus
distribution building infrastructure. We work together in an open,
transparent and friendly manner as part of the worldwide Free and
Open Source Software community.
I would only scramble a bit the sentence, leaving out "transparent" (I
can't imagine open without transparent and vice versa),
2:47 p.m.
On Sunday, December 12, 2010 06:26:58 am Per Jessen wrote:
Rajko M. wrote:
"We work in a open way" is reference to whole organization activity and
results of that activity.
Term "open source project" means that project's source code is publicly
available to anyone willing to accept license terms and that license is
accepted as open source license. It doesn't tell anything about openness of
any other part of the project.
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On Friday, December 10, 2010 06:51:15 am Martin
Schlander wrote:
Hmm, I can - there are plenty of "open source projects" out there, where
e.g. the project organisation is completely non-transparent. The openSUSE community invites everyone to join
us in creating a
powerful, up to date and productive Linux distribution plus
distribution building infrastructure. We work together in an open,
transparent and friendly manner as part of the worldwide Free and
Open Source Software community.
I would only scramble a bit the sentence, leaving out "transparent" (I
can't imagine open without transparent and vice versa),
6:45 p.m.
Rajko M. wrote:
On Sunday, December 12, 2010 06:26:58 am Per Jessen
wrote:
Exactly - do you think anyone really cares much about the fact that
our "open" is not quite the same as in "open source"?
"open" does not
imply transparent, I think it's a good idea to include transparent.
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Rajko M. wrote:
"We work in a open way" is reference to whole organization activity
and results of that activity.
Term "open source project" means that project's source code is
publicly available to anyone willing to accept license terms and that
license is accepted as open source license. It doesn't tell anything
about openness of any other part of the project. On Friday, December 10, 2010 06:51:15 am Martin
Schlander wrote:
Hmm, I can - there are plenty of "open source projects" out there,
where e.g. the project organisation is completely non-transparent. The openSUSE community invites everyone to join
us in creating a
powerful, up to date and productive Linux distribution plus
distribution building infrastructure. We work together in an
open,
transparent and friendly manner as part of the worldwide Free and
Open Source Software community.
I would only scramble a bit the sentence, leaving out "transparent"
(I can't imagine open without transparent and vice versa),
10:05 p.m.
Le 12/12/2010 18:45, Per Jessen a écrit :
imply transparent, I think it's a good idea to
include transparent.
anyway it doesn't hurt...
jdd
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13 Dec
13 Dec
2 a.m.
On Sunday, December 12, 2010 11:45:46 am Per Jessen wrote:
...
We can split the hare until we get nausea, by taking one word out of context
and slapping some other word to create perception of different meanings.
I used "open way" which as combination of words includes "transparent"
and
implies more, so adding word transparent in that context is plain redundancy.
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"We work
in a open way" is reference to whole organization activity
and results of that activity.
Term "open source project" means that project's source code is
publicly available to anyone willing to accept license terms and that
license is accepted as open source license. It doesn't tell anything
about openness of any other part of the project.
Exactly - do you think anyone really cares much about the fact that
our "open" is not quite the same as in "open source"?
"open" does not
imply transparent, I think it's a good idea to include transparent.
8:03 a.m.
On 13/12/2010 12:00, Rajko M. wrote:
On Sunday, December 12, 2010 11:45:46 am Per Jessen
wrote:
...
We can
split the hare until we get nausea,
For future reference, Rajko, the (English) expression is "splitting
hairs" :-) . (I know that English is not your first language.)
"We
work in a open way" is reference to whole organization activity
and results of that activity.
Term "open source project" means that project's source code is
publicly available to anyone willing to accept license terms and that
license is accepted as open source license. It doesn't tell anything
about openness of any other part of the project.
Exactly - do you think anyone
really cares much about the fact that
our "open" is not quite the same as in "open source"?
"open" does not
imply transparent, I think it's a good idea to include transparent. by taking one word out of context
and slapping some other word to create perception of different meanings.
I used "open way" which as combination of words includes
"transparent" and
implies more, so adding word transparent in that context is plain redundancy.
But, you know, I cannot help wondering if this whole discussion is a
"rear-guard" action to promote the declining fortunes of SuSE, now
openSUSE, and to try and resurrect it to its "past glory" (how many
posts does this thread consist of? I count 40 at the moment but this is
after I started to pay attention to it since 9 December......).
Just a comment, not trying to start a flame war.
It's just I do not know of any other distro which is going thru the same
agonising, hand-wringing , process. That's all.
Pax to everyone :-) .
BC
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14 Dec
14 Dec
12:55 p.m.
On Monday 13 December 2010 08:03:35 Basil Chupin wrote:
On 13/12/2010 12:00, Rajko M. wrote:
Actually Fedora is discussing this too.
I also see something different here - first of all, people care, that is good.
And second, I actually feel we are turning the boat around lately (yes
butchering a dutch saying here). I think the article in Linux Journal*
(despite the horrible title) makes this clear - people notice that there is a
new spirit. Maybe that's mostly marketing, I don't know for sure. But there
ARE things happening - from the very (VERY!) successful openSUSE conference to
project Tumbleweed.
So yes, we have had a decline and in some ways we still aren't exactly
growing. But to me, it feels we've had our worst time and are going somewhere
now. OBS is being picked up, SUSE Studio attracts growing interest (while not
an openSUSE project, it reflects positively on us) and we are getting more
press attention.
*http://www.linuxjournal.com/content/has-novell-deal-hampered-opensuse
On Sunday, December 12, 2010 11:45:46 am Per
Jessen wrote:
...
We can split the hare until we get nausea,
For future reference, Rajko, the (English) expression is "splitting
hairs" :-) . (I know that English is not your first language.)
"We
work in a open way" is reference to whole organization activity
and results of that activity.
Term "open source project" means that project's source code is
publicly available to anyone willing to accept license terms and that
license is accepted as open source license. It doesn't tell anything
about openness of any other part of the project.
Exactly - do you think anyone really cares much about the fact that
our "open" is not quite the same as in "open source"?
"open" does not
imply transparent, I think it's a good idea to include transparent. by taking one word out of context
and slapping some other word to create perception of different meanings.
I used "open way" which as combination of words includes
"transparent"
and implies more, so adding word transparent in that context is plain
redundancy.
But, you know, I cannot help wondering if this whole discussion is a
"rear-guard" action to promote the declining fortunes of SuSE, now
openSUSE, and to try and resurrect it to its "past glory" (how many
posts does this thread consist of? I count 40 at the moment but this is
after I started to pay attention to it since 9 December......).
Just a comment, not trying to start a flame war.
It's just I do not know of any other distro which is going thru the same
agonising, hand-wringing , process. That's all. Pax to everyone :-) .
love and have fun, I'd say :D
BC
Jos
6:20 p.m.
Mandag den 13. december 2010 08:03:35 skrev Basil Chupin:
It's just I do not know of any other distro which
is going thru the same
agonising, hand-wringing , process. That's all.
Cuz either they have top-down, centralized leadership/dictatorship. Or they
have a clear identity from the beginning - which has been further established
and cemented for years and years.
Whereas openSUSE is a schizofrenic with severe identity crisis, so there's no
way around it. We should have done this years ago, and if we don't get it
right this time, we'll prolly not get another chance in the foreseeable
future.
Of course at some point, maybe the board+Jos+coolo should get together and
make the final decision.
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6:45 p.m.
Martin Schlander wrote:
Mandag den 13. december 2010 08:03:35 skrev Basil
Chupin:
Both - because they have identity and leadership.
It's just I do not know of any other distro
which is going thru the
same agonising, hand-wringing , process. That's all.
Cuz either they have top-down, centralized leadership/dictatorship. Or
they have a clear identity from the beginning - which has been further
established and cemented for years and years. Whereas openSUSE is a schizofrenic with severe
identity crisis,
And not much leadership ...
so there's no way around it. We should have done
this years ago, and
if we don't get it right this time, we'll prolly not get another
chance in the foreseeable future.
+1.
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6:46 p.m.
Le 14/12/2010 18:20, Martin Schlander a écrit :
Of course at some point, maybe the board+Jos+coolo
should get together and
make the final decision.
and ASAP would be good, whatever decision is taken :-)
jdd
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1:16 p.m.
On Monday 13 December 2010 02:00:22 Rajko M. wrote:
On Sunday, December 12, 2010 11:45:46 am Per Jessen
wrote:
...
We can split the hare until we get nausea, by taking one word out of
context and slapping some other word to create perception of different
meanings.
I used "open way" which as combination of words includes
"transparent" and
implies more, so adding word transparent in that context is plain
redundancy.
We can indeed keep splitting hairs (or split hares, also fun, google it hehe).
I hope you feel my pain here - anytime I present something, somewhere between
3 and 5 ppl say 'nah, it should be like this'. When I take those comments into
consideration and present something new - again 3-5 ppl come with something
different... Rinse, repeat ad nauseam. Not that I don't like those statements
- most of them are good suggestions. Ok, the bullet points I don't really
agree with, it's hard to talk with bullet points ;-)
So say we take
The openSUSE community invites everyone that wants to work in open and
friendly way to join creation of a powerful, up to date, productive Linux
distribution based on Free and Open Source Software.
This one is imho great. I do like flexible - you might say we're not as
flexible as Gentoo or Arch, maybe not. But we are more flexible than most
distro's - more well maintained desktops than anyone, choice between upstream
or openSUSE packages, build service so you can put together your own mix of
stable & up-to-date, YaST, zypper with the choices it offers... So I would put
flexible in place of up-to-date (we're less up-to-date than most distro's with
our 8 month release cycle).
Then the second part, about our technology. You wrote:
Our advantages are the Build Service, for simple creation of software packages
or whole distributions, YaST and MirrorBrain, providing first class software
management with top rated security and a strong web infrastructure covering
all other aspects of software development and use.
I'm less happy with that. Needs re-wording and why do we mention YaST and
MirrorBrain but not KIWI or Edu LiFE, Connect, openFATE or other projects?
Let's just mention BS, it's our most distinctive and well-known technology.
Why not go for:
We work together on collaborative infrastructure technologies like the Build
Service and provide first class software management with top rated security
and a strong web infrastructure covering all other aspects of software
development and use.
We have however diverged a lot from what we initially had, and as Henne said -
it wasn't that bad: http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-
project/2010-11/msg00034.html
So let's do a little vote for whoever still cares:
Option one: based on our current project description:
"We
work in a open way" is reference to whole organization activity
and results of that activity.
Term "open source project" means that project's source code is
publicly available to anyone willing to accept license terms and that
license is accepted as open source license. It doesn't tell anything
about openness of any other part of the project.
Exactly - do you think anyone really cares much about the fact that
our "open" is not quite the same as in "open source"?
"open" does not
imply transparent, I think it's a good idea to include transparent. The openSUSE project is a worldwide effort that
promotes the use of
Linux everywhere. openSUSE maintains and develops a packaging and
distribution infrastructure on which it creates one of the world's most
flexible and powerful Linux distributions, working together in an open,
transparent and friendly manner as part of the worldwide Free and Open
Source Software community.
Option two: completely different but also good :D
The openSUSE community invites everyone that wants to
work in open and
friendly way to join in the creation of a powerful, up to date, productive
Linux distribution based on Free and Open Source Software.
We work together on collaborative infrastructure technologies like the
Build Service and provide first class software management with top rated
security and a strong web infrastructure covering all other aspects of
software development and use.
I don't think there is enough energy (and reason) to delay this any further -
we can change sections of the final result in the future. Things change anyway
so in a year we might have to do some minor modifications anyway.
So whatever comes out of this little vote I will put in the final 'strategy'
and present that to the openSUSE membership for voting. I know, the membership
- not sure if that's the place where we must vote on this, but frankly I don't
see a much better place which can't be derailed by 'outsiders'.
Cheers,
Jos
1:43 p.m.
Le 14/12/2010 13:16, Jos Poortvliet a écrit :
Option one: based on our current project description:
> The openSUSE project is a worldwide effort that promotes the use of
> Linux everywhere. openSUSE maintains and develops a packaging and
> distribution infrastructure on which it creates one of the world's most
> flexible and powerful Linux distributions, working together in an open,
> transparent and friendly manner as part of the worldwide Free and Open
> Source Software community.
may be good, but really pointless (I"m good, come on)
Option two: completely different but also good :D
> The openSUSE community invites everyone that wants to work in open and
> friendly way to join in the creation of a powerful, up to date, productive
> Linux distribution based on Free and Open Source Software.
>
> We work together on collaborative infrastructure technologies like the
> Build Service and provide first class software management with top rated
> security and a strong web infrastructure covering all other aspects of
> software development and use.
take this one (if most people agreee) *for at least one year*, then we
could open the discussion again. Not every month...
jdd
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2:35 p.m.
Am Tue, 14 Dec 2010 13:16:10 +0100
schrieb Jos Poortvliet <jospoortvliet(a)gmail.com> :
(x) Option two
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6:32 p.m.
<snip>
So let's do a little vote for whoever still cares:
Option one: based on our current project description:
Option one: +1
Robert
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The openSUSE project is a worldwide effort that
promotes the use of
Linux everywhere. openSUSE maintains and develops a packaging and
distribution infrastructure on which it creates one of the world's most
flexible and powerful Linux distributions, working together in an open,
transparent and friendly manner as part of the worldwide Free and Open
Source Software community.
Option two: completely different but also good :D
The openSUSE community invites everyone that
wants to work in open and
friendly way to join in the creation of a powerful, up to date, productive
Linux distribution based on Free and Open Source Software.
We work together on collaborative infrastructure technologies like the
Build Service and provide first class software management with top rated
security and a strong web infrastructure covering all other aspects of
software development and use.
7:01 p.m.
Tirsdag den 14. december 2010 13:16:10 skrev Jos Poortvliet:
So let's do a little vote for whoever still
cares:
Option one: based on our current project description:
(x) Option two
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The openSUSE project is a worldwide effort that
promotes the use of
Linux everywhere. openSUSE maintains and develops a packaging and
distribution infrastructure on which it creates one of the world's most
flexible and powerful Linux distributions, working together in an open,
transparent and friendly manner as part of the worldwide Free and Open
Source Software community.
Option two: completely different but also good :D
> The openSUSE community invites everyone that wants to work in open and
> friendly way to join in the creation of a powerful, up to date,
> productive Linux distribution based on Free and Open Source Software.
>
> We work together on collaborative infrastructure technologies like the
> Build Service and provide first class software management with top rated
> security and a strong web infrastructure covering all other aspects of
> software development and use.
21 Dec
21 Dec
midnight
On Tuesday 14 December 2010 19:01:19 Martin Schlander wrote:
Tirsdag den 14. december 2010 13:16:10 skrev Jos
Poortvliet:
You know you just made the life of a very consensus-focussed community manager
harder, right? Two votes for option one, two votes for option two. Maybe I
need to get the monkey out of the closet again and let him trow a dice.
*watches monkey trow dice
Ok, after careful deliberation and much thought, the decision has been made to
go for option one*. I will now finish up the 'strategy', present it to the
board (hoping they won't disagree with everything in there) and let them
present it to the openSUSE Membership.
Thanks all!
*some further discussion resulting in minor changes to option one, but you'll
see that later ;-)
So let's do a little vote for whoever still
cares:
Option one: based on our current project description:
(x) Option two The openSUSE project is a worldwide effort that
promotes the use of
Linux everywhere. openSUSE maintains and develops a packaging and
distribution infrastructure on which it creates one of the world's most
flexible and powerful Linux distributions, working together in an open,
transparent and friendly manner as part of the worldwide Free and Open
Source Software community.
Option two: completely different but also good :D
> The openSUSE community invites everyone that wants to work in open and
> friendly way to join in the creation of a powerful, up to date,
> productive Linux distribution based on Free and Open Source Software.
>
> We work together on collaborative infrastructure technologies like the
> Build Service and provide first class software management with top
> rated security and a strong web infrastructure covering all other
> aspects of software development and use.
2:30 a.m.
On Monday, December 20, 2010 05:00:19 pm Jos Poortvliet wrote:
...
*watches monkey trow dice
Ok, after careful deliberation and much thought, the decision has been made
to go for option one*. I will now finish up the 'strategy', present it to
the board (hoping they won't disagree with everything in there) and let
them present it to the openSUSE Membership.
Option one, is present for the last five plus years.
It looks so washed out when one takes time to read other distros introduction
on Distrowatch.
I'm not trying to see dice rolling again, at lest not right now, but if we
want to look fresh and energized, we should give up on keeping exact the same
old message for so long time. There is so many ways to say the same, that
keeping one and the same message for five years doesn't give confidence that
openSUSE has, among other things, imagination. On the other hand keeping old
message gives feeling to the people that nothing is changing in openSUSE,
which is currently so wrong.
Unlike software that should not be changed without need, messages to humans
must be changed once in a while, or they get ignored. It is nothing new to any
propagandist, but it might be to the people used to handle only software (2
votes to keep old message).
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5:33 a.m.
On Mon, 20 Dec 2010 19:30:40 -0600, "Rajko M." <rmatov101(a)charter.net>
wrote:
we
On Monday, December 20, 2010 05:00:19 pm Jos
Poortvliet wrote:
...
> *watches monkey trow dice
>
> Ok, after careful deliberation and much thought, the decision has been
> made
> to go for option one*. I will now finish up the 'strategy', present it
to
the board
(hoping they won't disagree with everything in there) and let
them present it to the openSUSE Membership.
Option one, is present for the last five plus years.
It looks so washed out when one takes time to read other distros
introduction
on Distrowatch.
I'm not trying to see dice rolling again, at lest not right now, but if want to look fresh and energized, we should give up on
keeping exact the
same
old message for so long time. There is so many ways to say the same,
that
keeping one and the same message for five years
doesn't give confidence
that
openSUSE has, among other things, imagination. On the other hand keeping
old
message gives feeling to the people that nothing is changing in
openSUSE,
which is currently so wrong.
Unlike software that should not be changed without need, messages to
humans
must be changed once in a while, or they get ignored. It is nothing new
to
any
propagandist, but it might be to the people used to handle only software
(2
votes to keep old message).
--
Regards,
Rajko
Strategy? What's the goal? ;-)
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Erdős
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8 Nov
8 Nov
12:56 p.m.
On Mon, 8 Nov 2010 12:44:33 +0100
Andreas Jaeger <aj(a)novell.com> wrote:
create and distribute the world's most usable
Linux
Yes!
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4:27 p.m.
pb(a)seat-1.com wrote:
On Mon, 8 Nov 2010 12:44:33 +0100
Andreas Jaeger <aj(a)novell.com> wrote:
+1.
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create and distribute the world's most usable
Linux
Yes! 
4:38 p.m.
On Nov 08, 10 16:27:12 +0100, Per Jessen wrote:
pb(a)seat-1.com wrote:
I like it! Quite ambitious!
cheers,
JW-
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On Mon, 8 Nov 2010 12:44:33 +0100
Andreas Jaeger <aj(a)novell.com> wrote:
+1. create and distribute the world's most usable
Linux
Yes!
5:11 p.m.
Mandag den 8. november 2010 16:38:10 skrev Juergen Weigert:
On Nov 08, 10 16:27:12 +0100, Per Jessen wrote:
That is exactly what was on the openSUSE wiki frontpage for years.
It was bad then, and it's even worse now, because "usable" is either just an
empty phrase that can mean whatever anyone wants it to mean, or it means "Aunt
Tillie distro" - which we have spent months establishing is a bad fit for
openSUSE and doesn't reflect reality.
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pb(a)seat-1.com wrote:
I like it! Quite ambitious! On Mon, 8 Nov 2010 12:44:33 +0100
Andreas Jaeger <aj(a)novell.com> wrote:
+1. create and distribute the world's most usable
Linux
Yes!
5:31 p.m.
Le 08/11/2010 17:11, Martin Schlander a écrit :
It was bad then, and it's even worse now, because
"usable" is either just an
empty phrase that can mean whatever anyone wants it to mean, or it means "Aunt
Tillie distro" - which we have spent months establishing is a bad fit for
openSUSE and doesn't reflect reality.
anyway anybody can read what he want.
I think we had a very good proposal on the last strategy summary and
we should not do again this discussion.
jdd
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5:38 p.m.
Martin Schlander wrote:
Mandag den 8. november 2010 16:38:10 skrev Juergen
Weigert:
IOW, a mission statement .....
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On Nov 08, 10 16:27:12 +0100, Per Jessen wrote:
That is exactly what was on the openSUSE wiki frontpage for years.
It was bad then, and it's even worse now, because "usable" is either
just an empty phrase that can mean whatever anyone wants it to mean, pb(a)seat-1.com wrote:
I like it! Quite ambitious! On Mon, 8 Nov 2010 12:44:33 +0100
Andreas Jaeger <aj(a)novell.com> wrote:
> create and distribute the world's most usable Linux
Yes!
+1. 
5:42 p.m.
Am Montag, den 08.11.2010, 17:11 +0100 schrieb Martin Schlander:
Mandag den 8. november 2010 16:38:10 skrev Juergen
Weigert:
There's also "create" and "distribute" in the sentence, which
makes a
lot of difference for me. For example, the openSUSE build service makes
it easy to distribute. And of course, it is a helper for development,
knowing how your project compiles on other distributions. The "world's
most usable Linux" is something that depends on the users look at it. I,
as a user, see the whole phrase as something like: "Ok, they want to be
usable, even for my grandma, and by the same time create something new,
innovative, and maintain it !".
And actually, that's the distribution I am looking for, both from the
POV of a user or a developer.
Holger
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On Nov 08, 10 16:27:12 +0100, Per Jessen wrote:
That is exactly what was on the openSUSE wiki frontpage for years.
It was bad then, and it's even worse now, because "usable" is either just
an
empty phrase that can mean whatever anyone wants it to mean, or it means "Aunt
Tillie distro" - which we have spent months establishing is a bad fit for
openSUSE and doesn't reflect reality. pb(a)seat-1.com wrote:
I like it! Quite ambitious! On Mon, 8 Nov 2010 12:44:33 +0100
Andreas Jaeger <aj(a)novell.com> wrote:
> create and distribute the world's most usable Linux
Yes!
+1. 
12 Nov
12 Nov
12:41 a.m.
On 2010-11-08 17:42:09 (+0100), Holger Hetterich <hhetter(a)novell.com> wrote:
[...]
[...] The "world's
most usable Linux" is something that depends on the users look at it. I,
as a user, see the whole phrase as something like: "Ok, they want to be
usable, even for my grandma, and by the same time create something new,
innovative, and maintain it !".
"Usable", as Martin wrote, is really a bad term to use IMHO.
It is unclear, and everyone will have her own interpretation of that
term. Some may even understand it as "accessible" (as in a11y).
The mission statement must be short and precise.
I wholeheartedly agree with the "explaining is losing" that was cited on
this thread.
And actually, that's the distribution I am looking
for, both from the
POV of a user or a developer.
But that is specifically what we do _not_ aim for, as of the strategy.
Again, having a strategy and defining a target audience does _not_ mean
that openSUSE isn't usable for less or inexperienced users (my
girlfriend and my daughter use it too, and neither of them are computer
wizards).
It just means that our focus, during development and when we have to
take decisions that can only go one way or another, we take the decision
that favours our target audience.
cheers
--
-o) Pascal Bleser <pascal.bleser(a)opensuse.org>
/\\ http://opensuse.org -- I took the green pill
_\_v FOSDEM XI: 5 + 6 Feb 2011, http://fosdem.org
8:32 a.m.
Am Freitag, den 12.11.2010, 00:41 +0100 schrieb Pascal Bleser:
I never had doubts on that.
On 2010-11-08 17:42:09 (+0100), Holger Hetterich
<hhetter(a)novell.com> wrote:
[...]
You will always have a personal interpretation of an individual on any
terms you have in a strategy statement. For example, what defines
someone being a "professional" (used in other suggestions)? What will a
"professional" from the film industry expect from a linux distribution
for professionals?
Also, I don't have a problem in that someone understands it as
accessible as in a11y, and having those in the target audience included.
[...] The "world's
most usable Linux" is something that depends on the users look at it. I,
as a user, see the whole phrase as something like: "Ok, they want to be
usable, even for my grandma, and by the same time create something new,
innovative, and maintain it !".
"Usable", as Martin wrote, is really a bad term to use IMHO.
It is unclear, and everyone will have her own interpretation of that
term. Some may even understand it as "accessible" (as in a11y). The mission statement must be short and precise.
It is already short. The more precise you get, the more possible users
will be lost. Is that the idea?
I wholeheartedly agree with the "explaining is
losing" that was cited on
this thread.
You will always have to explain it. There's no way around it.
And actually, that's the distribution I am
looking for, both from the
POV of a user or a developer.
But that is specifically what we do _not_ aim for, as of the strategy.
Again, having a strategy and defining a target audience does _not_ mean
that openSUSE isn't usable for less or inexperienced users (my
girlfriend and my daughter use it too, and neither of them are computer
wizards). It just means that our focus, during development and
when we have to
take decisions that can only go one way or another, we take the decision
that favours our target audience.
And that would be to decide for the solution that provides the best
usability, while trying to maintain a good platform for development and
innovation. What is the problem?
Linux isn't exactly known for being usable for the masses. I think a
distribution showing it can be usable is a remarkable goal.
Holger
cheers
--
Holger Hetterich, hhetter(a)novell.com,
SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg)
Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany
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5:48 p.m.
Well I think a "professional" is a person who can install Linux on his or
her own. You maybe laugh about this sentence, but I know people who can´t
install Windows. They aren´t professionals I think. If they can´t install
Windows, the maybe can´t install Linux too. A professional should know
things like this:
- *What´s a swap-partition?
- *Where´s root?
- *Why I can´t running my Windows applications without wine or something
other?
Yes, that are questions they are important to me. A professional should be
an advanced or power user. I think that´s say all.
Regards,
kdl
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
From: Holger Hetterich
Sent: Friday, November 12, 2010 8:32 AM
To: opensuse-project(a)opensuse.org
Subject: Re: [opensuse-project] What's the latest on the strategy
discussion?
Am Freitag, den 12.11.2010, 00:41 +0100 schrieb Pascal Bleser:
I never had doubts on that.
On 2010-11-08 17:42:09 (+0100), Holger Hetterich
<hhetter(a)novell.com>
wrote:
[...]
You will always have a personal interpretation of an individual on any
terms you have in a strategy statement. For example, what defines
someone being a "professional" (used in other suggestions)? What will a
"professional" from the film industry expect from a linux distribution
for professionals?
Also, I don't have a problem in that someone understands it as
accessible as in a11y, and having those in the target audience included.
[...] The "world's
most usable Linux" is something that depends on the users look at it. I,
as a user, see the whole phrase as something like: "Ok, they want to be
usable, even for my grandma, and by the same time create something new,
innovative, and maintain it !".
"Usable", as Martin wrote, is really a bad term to use IMHO.
It is unclear, and everyone will have her own interpretation of that
term. Some may even understand it as "accessible" (as in a11y). The mission statement must be short and precise.
It is already short. The more precise you get, the more possible users
will be lost. Is that the idea?
I wholeheartedly agree with the "explaining is
losing" that was cited on
this thread.
You will always have to explain it. There's no way around it.
And actually, that's the distribution I am
looking for, both from the
POV of a user or a developer.
But that is specifically what we do _not_ aim for, as of the strategy.
Again, having a strategy and defining a target audience does _not_ mean
that openSUSE isn't usable for less or inexperienced users (my
girlfriend and my daughter use it too, and neither of them are computer
wizards). It just means that our focus, during development and
when we have to
take decisions that can only go one way or another, we take the decision
that favours our target audience.
And that would be to decide for the solution that provides the best
usability, while trying to maintain a good platform for development and
innovation. What is the problem?
Linux isn't exactly known for being usable for the masses. I think a
distribution showing it can be usable is a remarkable goal.
Holger
cheers
--
Holger Hetterich, hhetter(a)novell.com,
SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg)
Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany
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6:26 p.m.
Am Freitag, den 12.11.2010, 17:48 +0100 schrieb Kim Leyendecker:
Well I think a "professional" is a person
who can install Linux on his or
her own. You maybe laugh about this sentence, but I know people who can´t
install Windows. They aren´t professionals I think. If they can´t install
Windows, the maybe can´t install Linux too. A professional should know
things like this:
- *What´s a swap-partition?
- *Where´s root?
- *Why I can´t running my Windows applications without wine or something
other?
Yes, that are questions they are important to me. A professional should be
an advanced or power user. I think that´s say all.
Kim,
your definition of an advanced user or "professional" is perfectly fine
to me. I am in doubt that a strategy statement using "professionals" or
even "advanced users" is a good idea, as this will leave out all those
who don't know what a swap partition is. And why should openSUSE not
attract those people too?
One of the suggestions says "We Create and Distribute". If openSUSE
manages do to exactly that, openSUSE will attract developers. (and I
personally think openSUSE has all the ground technology to be able to).
Power Users, or "professionals", or advanced users will follow
automatically to where development takes place, as those are following
software development better than others. At leasts that's my thinking.
There's no reason to leave those out who are not professional. In fact I
believe a good portion of them are future contributers, once they
discovered the power of linux.
Cheers,
Holger
Regards,
kdl
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
From: Holger Hetterich
Sent: Friday, November 12, 2010 8:32 AM
To: opensuse-project(a)opensuse.org
Subject: Re: [opensuse-project] What's the latest on the strategy
discussion?
Am Freitag, den 12.11.2010, 00:41 +0100 schrieb Pascal Bleser:
I never had doubts on that.
--
Holger Hetterich, hhetter(a)novell.com,
SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg)
Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany
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On 2010-11-08 17:42:09 (+0100), Holger Hetterich
<hhetter(a)novell.com>
wrote:
[...]
You will always have a personal interpretation of an individual on any
terms you have in a strategy statement. For example, what defines
someone being a "professional" (used in other suggestions)? What will a
"professional" from the film industry expect from a linux distribution
for professionals?
Also, I don't have a problem in that someone understands it as
accessible as in a11y, and having those in the target audience included.
[...] The "world's
most usable Linux" is something that depends on the users look at it. I,
as a user, see the whole phrase as something like: "Ok, they want to be
usable, even for my grandma, and by the same time create something new,
innovative, and maintain it !".
"Usable", as Martin wrote, is really a bad term to use IMHO.
It is unclear, and everyone will have her own interpretation of that
term. Some may even understand it as "accessible" (as in a11y). The mission statement must be short and precise.
It is already short. The more precise you get, the more possible users
will be lost. Is that the idea?
I wholeheartedly agree with the "explaining
is losing" that was cited on
this thread.
You will always have to explain it. There's no way around it.
And actually, that's the distribution I am
looking for, both from the
POV of a user or a developer.
But that is specifically what we do _not_ aim for, as of the strategy.
Again, having a strategy and defining a target audience does _not_ mean
that openSUSE isn't usable for less or inexperienced users (my
girlfriend and my daughter use it too, and neither of them are computer
wizards). It just means that our focus, during development
and when we have to
take decisions that can only go one way or another, we take the decision
that favours our target audience.
And that would be to decide for the solution that provides the best
usability, while trying to maintain a good platform for development and
innovation. What is the problem?
Linux isn't exactly known for being usable for the masses. I think a
distribution showing it can be usable is a remarkable goal.
Holger
cheers
--
Holger Hetterich, hhetter(a)novell.com,
SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg)
Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany
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6:31 p.m.
Holger,
I think you understood me. It´s not to my mind to leave out users who aren´t
professionals. This would be unfriendly, unfair and in my eyes not the right
way. I wrote another mail to the mailinglist. In this mail is a concept to
make openSUSE good for both user groups.
Hope you can understand me now ;)
regards,
kdl
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
From: Holger Hetterich
Sent: Friday, November 12, 2010 6:26 PM
To: opensuse-project(a)opensuse.org
Subject: Re: [opensuse-project] What's the latest on the strategy
discussion?
Am Freitag, den 12.11.2010, 17:48 +0100 schrieb Kim Leyendecker:
Well I think a "professional" is a person
who can install Linux on his or
her own. You maybe laugh about this sentence, but I know people who can´t
install Windows. They aren´t professionals I think. If they can´t install
Windows, the maybe can´t install Linux too. A professional should know
things like this:
- *What´s a swap-partition?
- *Where´s root?
- *Why I can´t running my Windows applications without wine or something
other?
Yes, that are questions they are important to me. A professional should be
an advanced or power user. I think that´s say all.
Kim,
your definition of an advanced user or "professional" is perfectly fine
to me. I am in doubt that a strategy statement using "professionals" or
even "advanced users" is a good idea, as this will leave out all those
who don't know what a swap partition is. And why should openSUSE not
attract those people too?
One of the suggestions says "We Create and Distribute". If openSUSE
manages do to exactly that, openSUSE will attract developers. (and I
personally think openSUSE has all the ground technology to be able to).
Power Users, or "professionals", or advanced users will follow
automatically to where development takes place, as those are following
software development better than others. At leasts that's my thinking.
There's no reason to leave those out who are not professional. In fact I
believe a good portion of them are future contributers, once they
discovered the power of linux.
Cheers,
Holger
Regards,
kdl
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
From: Holger Hetterich
Sent: Friday, November 12, 2010 8:32 AM
To: opensuse-project(a)opensuse.org
Subject: Re: [opensuse-project] What's the latest on the strategy
discussion?
Am Freitag, den 12.11.2010, 00:41 +0100 schrieb Pascal Bleser:
I never had doubts on that.
--
Holger Hetterich, hhetter(a)novell.com,
SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg)
Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany
--
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On 2010-11-08 17:42:09 (+0100), Holger Hetterich
<hhetter(a)novell.com>
wrote:
[...]
You will always have a personal interpretation of an individual on any
terms you have in a strategy statement. For example, what defines
someone being a "professional" (used in other suggestions)? What will a
"professional" from the film industry expect from a linux distribution
for professionals?
Also, I don't have a problem in that someone understands it as
accessible as in a11y, and having those in the target audience included.
[...] The "world's
most usable Linux" is something that depends on the users look at it.
I,
as a user, see the whole phrase as something like: "Ok, they want to
be
usable, even for my grandma, and by the same time create something
new,
innovative, and maintain it !".
"Usable", as Martin wrote, is really a bad term to use IMHO.
It is unclear, and everyone will have her own interpretation of that
term. Some may even understand it as "accessible" (as in a11y). The mission statement must be short and precise.
It is already short. The more precise you get, the more possible users
will be lost. Is that the idea?
I wholeheartedly agree with the "explaining
is losing" that was cited on
this thread.
You will always have to explain it. There's no way around it.
And actually, that's the distribution I am
looking for, both from the
POV of a user or a developer.
But that is specifically what we do _not_ aim for, as of the strategy.
Again, having a strategy and defining a target audience does _not_ mean
that openSUSE isn't usable for less or inexperienced users (my
girlfriend and my daughter use it too, and neither of them are computer
wizards). It just means that our focus, during development
and when we have to
take decisions that can only go one way or another, we take the decision
that favours our target audience.
And that would be to decide for the solution that provides the best
usability, while trying to maintain a good platform for development and
innovation. What is the problem?
Linux isn't exactly known for being usable for the masses. I think a
distribution showing it can be usable is a remarkable goal.
Holger
cheers
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8 Nov
8 Nov
6:18 p.m.
On Nov 08, 10 17:11:49 +0100, Martin Schlander wrote:
I like it! Quite ambitious!
That is exactly what was on the openSUSE wiki frontpage for years.
It was bad then, and it's even worse now, because "usable" is either just
an
empty phrase that can mean whatever anyone wants it to mean, or it means "Aunt
Tillie distro" - which we have spent months establishing is a bad fit for
openSUSE and doesn't reflect reality.
You are correct in that we need a sound definition, of what we understand
by usable. (That definition is not part of the mission statement, but
should be prepared too).
I understand 'more usable' in terms of making it more efficient in a general
sense. Not in the sense of simplification that would hinder complex work.
I disagree with the conclusion that we should not strive for a usable
system. To me, aunt Tillie's name conveys the idea of a disrespected end
user. I wouldn't want to discriminate against any user group in the mission
statement.
cheers,
JW-
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Andreas Jaeger
<aj(a)novell.com> wrote:
> create and distribute the world's most usable Linux
Yes!
+1. 
6:39 p.m.
On 11/8/10 6:18 PM, Juergen Weigert wrote:
You are correct in that we need a sound definition, of what we understand
by usable. (That definition is not part of the mission statement, but
should be prepared too).
I understand 'more usable' in terms of making it more efficient in a general
sense. Not in the sense of simplification that would hinder complex work.
I disagree with the conclusion that we should not strive for a usable
system. To me, aunt Tillie's name conveys the idea of a disrespected end
user. I wouldn't want to discriminate against any user group in the mission
statement.
Agreed there as well. My non-geek wife is perfectly at ease with any of
my desktops or laptops running openSUSE :) Even better she likes them
better than my macbook :-)
On Nov 08, 10 17:11:49 +0100, Martin Schlander wrote:
>>>> Andreas Jaeger<aj(a)novell.com> wrote:
>>>>> create and distribute the world's most usable Linux
>>>> Yes!
>>> +1.
+1
While it might not be the most inclusive of everything we value in the
distro. Its a perfect short phrase to add bullet points below.
I've not commented on much of this, but have been following the
discussion carefully...
I like it! Quite ambitious!
That is exactly what was on the openSUSE wiki frontpage for years.
It was bad then, and it's even worse now, because "usable" is either just
an
empty phrase that can mean whatever anyone wants it to mean, or it means "Aunt
Tillie distro" - which we have spent months establishing is a bad fit for
openSUSE and doesn't reflect reality. cheers,
JW-
Cheers,
Peter
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7:16 p.m.
Le 08/11/2010 18:39, Peter Linnell a écrit :
Agreed there as well. My non-geek wife is perfectly at
ease with any of
my desktops or laptops running openSUSE :) Even better she likes them
better than my macbook :-)
from memory, the strategy project say that we don't "aim' to
unexperienced user, with the exception of the ones backed up by a
power user :-))
I just do like you do, with one of my daugthers.
jdd
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7:26 p.m.
On 2010-11-08 jdd offered the following:
Le 08/11/2010 18:39, Peter Linnell a écrit :
...careful...you can go to jail for that :)
Richard
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Agreed there as well. My non-geek wife is
perfectly at ease with any of
my desktops or laptops running openSUSE :) Even better she likes them
better than my macbook :-)
from memory, the strategy project say that we don't "aim' to
unexperienced user, with the exception of the ones backed up by a
power user :-))
I just do like you do, with one of my daugthers.
jdd 
8:48 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] What's the latest on the strategy discussion?
2010/11/8 jdd <jdd(a)dodin.org>rg>:
Le 08/11/2010 18:39, Peter Linnell a écrit :
I strongly disagree with that,isn't that why forums exist?
To help the unexperienced user?
If what you say is true I would be still using windows or Ubuntu,along
with many others.
Also making unexperienced users use openSUSE should be one of our top
priorities.
There are much more difficult distributions... and
http://forums.opensuse.org/ is one of the best forums on quality I
have ever been too.
Agreed there as well. My non-geek wife is
perfectly at ease with any of
my desktops or laptops running openSUSE :) Even better she likes them
better than my macbook :-)
from memory, the strategy project say that we don't "aim' to
unexperienced user, with the exception of the ones backed up by a
power user :-))
I just do like you do, with one of my daugthers.
jdd
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9 Nov
9 Nov
8:13 a.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] What's the latest on the strategy discussion?
Kostas Koudaras wrote:
2010/11/8 jdd <jdd(a)dodin.org>rg>:
Fora are there because some people prefer that style of interface. For
some reason it does appear to be particularly attractive to less
experienced users.
Le 08/11/2010 18:39, Peter Linnell a écrit :
I strongly disagree with that,isn't that why forums exist?
To help the unexperienced user? Agreed there as well. My non-geek wife is
perfectly at ease with any
of my desktops or laptops running openSUSE :) Even better she likes
them better than my macbook :-)
from memory, the strategy project say that we don't "aim' to
unexperienced user, with the exception of the ones backed up by a
power user :-)) If what you say is true I would be still using windows
or Ubuntu,
along with many others. Also making unexperienced users use openSUSE
should be one of our top priorities.
Well, it's not where the latest strategy discussions have been heading.
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10 Nov
10 Nov
8:06 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: What's the latest on the strategy discussion?
On Tue, 09 Nov 2010 08:13:41 +0100, Per Jessen wrote:
I think what Kostas is talking about is not "fora" like the openSUSE
Forums, but rather "online discussion venues", whether they be web-based
forums, newsgroups, mailing lists, etc. IOW, I think he's talking in a
more generic sense.
Building on what I wrote a couple minutes ago, I would see "providing
community support venues" as a part of the definition of "usable" in the
broader sense of the proposed mission statement. I would also probably
include end-user training (formal and informal) as part of what helps us
meet that goal of being "usable".
Jim
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I strongly
disagree with that,isn't that why forums exist? To help the
unexperienced user?
Fora are there because some people prefer that style of interface. For
some reason it does appear to be particularly attractive to less
experienced users.
9:11 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: What's the latest on the strategy discussion?
2010/11/10 Jim Henderson <hendersj(a)gmail.com>om>:
On Tue, 09 Nov 2010 08:13:41 +0100, Per Jessen wrote:
I think what Kostas is talking about is not "fora" like the openSUSE
Forums, but rather "online discussion venues", whether they be web-based
forums, newsgroups, mailing lists, etc. IOW, I think he's talking in a
more generic sense.
You got me right,although I confess I was not clear enough at what I said
I
strongly disagree with that,isn't that why forums exist? To help the
unexperienced user?
Fora are there because some people prefer that style of interface. For
some reason it does appear to be particularly attractive to less
experienced users. Building on what I wrote a couple minutes ago, I would
see "providing
community support venues" as a part of the definition of "usable" in the
broader sense of the proposed mission statement. I would also probably
include end-user training (formal and informal) as part of what helps us
meet that goal of being "usable".
Jim
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Now unfortunately I signed in late int that list, (a few days ago)
and I lost most of the discussion about the Strategy but I would like
to tell what are some the words we should focus under my opinion and
the word we should not,better late than never... I know that it is off
topic and if you like ignore it.
I believe we should focus on the words Freedom,Community, Leadership,
Global and the phrase "openSUSE Project for freedom"
The words on the other hand we should avoid like hell is
User-friendly(for what kind of user is friendly?are we all of the same
level and the same type of users?) and innovation (when ever I hear it
I think of people try to convince me that making my life hard is
blessing). Especially if you are an ambassador and you try to convince
average users to change distribution those are very tricky words,I
once made a Fedora ambassador very sorry for bringing those words up.
Kostas "Warlordfff" Koudaras
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9 Dec
9 Dec
1:10 a.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] What's the latest on the strategy discussion?
On Tuesday 09 November 2010 08:13:41 Per Jessen wrote:
Kostas Koudaras wrote:
Actually, if this unexperienced user wants to learn, openSUSE is perfect for
him/her... That was definately part of the strategy discussion.
2010/11/8 jdd <jdd(a)dodin.org>rg>:
Fora are there because some people prefer that style of interface. For
some reason it does appear to be particularly attractive to less
experienced users.
Le 08/11/2010 18:39, Peter Linnell a écrit :
I strongly disagree with that,isn't that why forums exist?
To help the unexperienced user? Agreed there as well. My non-geek wife is
perfectly at ease with any
of my desktops or laptops running openSUSE :) Even better she likes
them better than my macbook :-)
from memory, the strategy project say that we don't "aim' to
unexperienced user, with the exception of the ones backed up by a
power user :-)) If what you say is true I would be still using
windows or Ubuntu,
along with many others. Also making unexperienced users use openSUSE
should be one of our top priorities.
Well, it's not where the latest strategy discussions have been heading.
10 Nov
10 Nov
8:03 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: What's the latest on the strategy discussion?
On Mon, 08 Nov 2010 17:11:49 +0100, Martin Schlander wrote:
That is exactly what was on the openSUSE wiki
frontpage for years.
It was bad then, and it's even worse now, because "usable" is either
just an empty phrase that can mean whatever anyone wants it to mean, or
it means "Aunt Tillie distro" - which we have spent months establishing
is a bad fit for openSUSE and doesn't reflect reality.
I don't entirely disagree with this, but I don't entirely agree with it
either.
I think from the standpoint of a "mission statement", this is nice and
concise. What's important when you put a mission statement together,
though, is that it be followed by definitions that help the reader
understand what is meant if the language isn't clear (though ideally,
that would be self-evident - in some cases that is easy to do, in others
- like ours - I think it's less easy to do because of the complexity of
what we're talking about).
I think that's something I haven't entirely seen conveyed in the strategy
discussion (though I got busy and have missed some of the discussion over
the past few weeks).
Questions that a definition for "usable" needs to answer are:
* For Whom? (ie, who is the target audience?)
* How will we achieve that goal?
* How will we measure our success in this area?
There are probably other questions that it should answer as well.
Jim
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11 Nov
11 Nov
8:35 a.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: What's the latest on the strategy discussion?
Jim Henderson wrote:
I think that's something I haven't entirely
seen conveyed in the
strategy discussion (though I got busy and have missed some of the
discussion over the past few weeks).
Questions that a definition for "usable" needs to answer are:
* For Whom? (ie, who is the target audience?)
* How will we achieve that goal?
* How will we measure our success in this area?
There are probably other questions that it should answer as well.
Top-level mission statements and strategies never (or only extremely
rarely) come in the SMART format:
Specific, Measurable, Attainable, Realistic, Timely
In the average organisation, the SMARTness (if practiced at all) is
usually only introduced at the lower levels, i.e. departmental and
personal.
I think your question "for whom" is covered by the strategy proposal, as
well as "how will we achieve that goal", but I have not seen any
suggestions on how to measure our success.
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8:02 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: What's the latest on the strategy discussion?
On Thu, 11 Nov 2010 08:35:50 +0100, Per Jessen wrote:
Top-level mission statements and strategies never (or
only extremely
rarely) come in the SMART format:
Specific, Measurable, Attainable, Realistic, Timely
Right, but those are the questions that a mission statement/strategy beg
to be asked, and they need to be answered even if they're not part of the
actual declaration.
In the average organisation, the SMARTness (if
practiced at all) is
usually only introduced at the lower levels, i.e. departmental and
personal.
I think your question "for whom" is covered by the strategy proposal, as
well as "how will we achieve that goal", but I have not seen any
suggestions on how to measure our success.
That's one of the biggest challenges I think we're facing (I've also not
seen any suggestions on how to measure success, and I realise that I've
not also made any suggestions along those lines either - it's not an easy
thing to identify measures for). If we can't measure our success, then
by definition we don't know if we're being successful in achieving the
goal.
Jim
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8:21 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: What's the latest on the strategy discussion?
Le 11/11/2010 20:02, Jim Henderson a écrit :
thing to identify measures for). If we can't
measure our success, then
by definition we don't know if we're being successful in achieving the
we can hace a clue by the number of hits on download.opensuse.org, or
only on the update cals
but of course we can't know who do the request
jdd
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8:46 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: What's the latest on the strategy discussion?
On Thu, 11 Nov 2010 20:21:32 +0100, jdd wrote:
Le 11/11/2010 20:02, Jim Henderson a écrit :
This isn't a bad starting point, but adoption is only one measure that
can be applied. Other measures that could be applied would include
community membership growth, bugs reported/resolved and feature
suggestions made/implemented.
Jim
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thing to identify measures for). If we can't
measure our success, then
by definition we don't know if we're being successful in achieving the
we can hace a clue by the number of hits on download.opensuse.org, or
only on the update cals
but of course we can't know who do the request
9:31 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: What's the latest on the strategy discussion?
Jim Henderson wrote:
On Thu, 11 Nov 2010 08:35:50 +0100, Per Jessen wrote:
Giddyup, Don Quijote. :-)
We, i.e. the openSUSE project, are nowhere near organised enough to
begin contemplating answering such questions. I also don't think we
really need to, certainly not at the moment.
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Top-level mission statements and strategies never
(or only extremely
rarely) come in the SMART format:
Specific, Measurable, Attainable, Realistic, Timely
Right, but those are the questions that a mission statement/strategy
beg to be asked, and they need to be answered even if they're not part
of the actual declaration.
10:13 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: What's the latest on the strategy discussion?
On Thu, 11 Nov 2010 21:31:11 +0100, Per Jessen wrote:
Jim Henderson wrote:
:-)
On Thu, 11 Nov 2010 08:35:50 +0100, Per Jessen
wrote:
Giddyup, Don Quijote. :-) Top-level mission statements and strategies never
(or only extremely
rarely) come in the SMART format:
Specific, Measurable, Attainable, Realistic, Timely
Right, but those are the questions that a mission statement/strategy
beg to be asked, and they need to be answered even if they're not part
of the actual declaration. We, i.e. the openSUSE project, are nowhere near
organised enough to
begin contemplating answering such questions. I also don't think we
really need to, certainly not at the moment.
If that's the case (and I don't know that it is), then perhaps the first
thing we need to do is work on getting organised so we *can* answer those
types questions. If we can't answer those questions, then the vision/
strategy can't hold any meaning or provide a useful definition of what
the project is about.
Jim
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10:27 a.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: What's the latest on the strategy discussion?
"Opensuse aims to enable professional users by becoming the number one
portal for the development, distribution, and use of linux software."
On 11/10/10 19:03, Jim Henderson wrote:
Questions that a definition for "usable"
needs to answer are:
* For Whom? (ie, who is the target audience?)
* How will we achieve that goal?
* How will we measure our success in this area?
There are probably other questions that it should answer as well.
Jim
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2:25 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: What's the latest on the strategy discussion?
* Matt Gray <mjg(a)see3d.co.uk> [11-11-10 04:29]:
"Opensuse aims to enable professional users by becoming the number one
portal for the development, distribution, and use of linux software."
Nice, but appears pointed *only* at professional "users". Too narrow
scope.
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7:59 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: What's the latest on the strategy discussion?
On Thu, 11 Nov 2010 09:27:17 +0000, Matt Gray wrote:
"Opensuse aims to enable professional users by
becoming the number one
portal for the development, distribution, and use of linux software."
How do we define a "professional user"?
ie, is a professional user a:
* Computing professional
* IT person
* Enterprise user
* Advanced home user (and if so, how do we define "advanced"?)
Jim
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8:28 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: What's the latest on the strategy discussion?
On Thu, 11 Nov 2010 09:27:17 +0000, Matt Gray wrote:
"Opensuse aims to enable professional users by becoming the number one
portal for the development, distribution, and use of linux software."
How do we define a "professional user"?
ie, is a professional user a:
* Computing professional
* IT person
* Enterprise user
* Advanced home user (and if so, how do we define "advanced"?)
I think a professional user is that all. But the Enterprise User can use
SUSE Linux Enterprise. That´s not the "problem" of openSUSE. I think he
means an advanced user. In my eyes, this is a user who can install software
via the terminal, know how Linux works and maybe who can write code in C.
Regards,
kdl
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
From: Jim Henderson
Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2010 7:59 PM
To: opensuse-project(a)opensuse.org
Subject: [opensuse-project] Re: What's the latest on the strategy
discussion?
On Thu, 11 Nov 2010 09:27:17 +0000, Matt Gray wrote:
"Opensuse aims to enable professional users by
becoming the number one
portal for the development, distribution, and use of linux software."
How do we define a "professional user"?
ie, is a professional user a:
* Computing professional
* IT person
* Enterprise user
* Advanced home user (and if so, how do we define "advanced"?)
Jim
--
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8:35 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: What's the latest on the strategy discussion?
Am Thu, 11 Nov 2010 20:28:35 +0100
schrieb "Kim Leyendecker" <kimleyendecker(a)hotmail.de> :
If you’re explaining, you’re losing
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On Thu, 11 Nov
2010 09:27:17 +0000, Matt Gray wrote:
"Opensuse aims to enable professional users by becoming the number one
portal for the development, distribution, and use of linux software."
How do we define a "professional user"?
ie, is a professional user a:
* Computing professional
* IT person
* Enterprise user
* Advanced home user (and if so, how do we define "advanced"?)
I think a professional user is that all. But the Enterprise User can use
SUSE Linux Enterprise. That´s not the "problem" of openSUSE. I think he
means an advanced user. In my eyes, this is a user who can install software
via the terminal, know how Linux works and maybe who can write code in C.
8:44 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: What's the latest on the strategy discussion?
On Thu, 11 Nov 2010 20:28:35 +0100, Kim Leyendecker wrote:
We have a fairly significant audience that is non-coders, though.
"Advanced" is also a fairly ambiguous term - but also we have to have
"beginner" users, otherwise people don't grow into "advanced".
That
would imply (to me) that our intention to grow our user community is to
take users who got their start on other distributions. I would think
we'd want to grow our community by taking users from the Windows (and
other desktop/server OS) user base.
Otherwise, we're really talking about a Linux for Linux users, and I
think that limits our userbase too much.
Jim
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How do we
define a "professional user"?
ie, is a professional user a:
* Computing professional
* IT person
* Enterprise user
* Advanced home user (and if so, how do we define "advanced"?)
I think a professional user is that all. But the Enterprise User can use
SUSE Linux Enterprise. That´s not the "problem" of openSUSE. I think he
means an advanced user. In my eyes, this is a user who can install
software via the terminal, know how Linux works and maybe who can write
code in C.
12 Nov
12 Nov
6:28 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: What's the latest on the strategy discussion?
Well, do you know SUSE Linux Personal or SUSE Linux Professional? I think
so.
I´ve got an concept that maybe can stop them. I use this for my own
distribution I´ve built with SUSE Studio.
This concept looks like this:
openSUSE:
This system is for the beginners and for "home-users".
openSUSE Professional:
This system is for advanced users who can work with a system that´s maybe
must be administrate over the terminal.
But I think today openSUSE is a distribution for both user groups.
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
From: Jim Henderson
Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2010 8:44 PM
To: opensuse-project(a)opensuse.org
Subject: [opensuse-project] Re: What's the latest on the strategy
discussion?
On Thu, 11 Nov 2010 20:28:35 +0100, Kim Leyendecker wrote:
We have a fairly significant audience that is non-coders, though.
"Advanced" is also a fairly ambiguous term - but also we have to have
"beginner" users, otherwise people don't grow into "advanced".
That
would imply (to me) that our intention to grow our user community is to
take users who got their start on other distributions. I would think
we'd want to grow our community by taking users from the Windows (and
other desktop/server OS) user base.
Otherwise, we're really talking about a Linux for Linux users, and I
think that limits our userbase too much.
Jim
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How do we
define a "professional user"?
ie, is a professional user a:
* Computing professional
* IT person
* Enterprise user
* Advanced home user (and if so, how do we define "advanced"?)
I think a professional user is that all. But the Enterprise User can use
SUSE Linux Enterprise. That´s not the "problem" of openSUSE. I think he
means an advanced user. In my eyes, this is a user who can install
software via the terminal, know how Linux works and maybe who can write
code in C.
9:10 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: What's the latest on the strategy discussion?
On Fri, 12 Nov 2010 18:28:08 +0100, Kim Leyendecker wrote:
Well, do you know SUSE Linux Personal or SUSE Linux
Professional? I
think so.
I´ve got an concept that maybe can stop them. I use this for my own
distribution I´ve built with SUSE Studio.
This concept looks like this:
openSUSE:
This system is for the beginners and for "home-users".
openSUSE Professional:
This system is for advanced users who can work with a system that´s
maybe must be administrate over the terminal.
But I think today openSUSE is a distribution for both user groups.
Given the number of new users we see in the forums, I would tend to agree
that it is used by both user groups.
However, even that kind of definition doesn't work well, because I myself
use openSUSE at home. ;-)
My point being, "beginners" and "home users" are not equivalent. One
can
be a "home user" and be an "advanced user", and I suspect that many of
the readership of this list are in that category.
This is why I think it's important to define the audience, even if it
isn't part of the mission statement (ie, the words explaining the
definition aren't in that statement).
Jim
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12:27 a.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: What's the latest on the strategy discussion?
On Thursday 11 November 2010 20:28:35 wrote Kim Leyendecker:
I personally don't like the term "professional" very much, because many
things can be professional. In the strategy discussion we moved on, defining the target
user as the "interested user who is willing to learn". Such a user is able (and
willing) e.g. to use a forum. We don't have the ressources to spoonfeed too many and
we don't want to limit the flexibility of the user by making it "aunt
tilly"-friendly.
For more detaily see the strategy proposal here:
https://lite.co-ment.com/text/lNPCgzeGHdV/view/
(This site requires Firefox. Konqueror and Rekonq are not working properly.)
Cheers,
Thomas
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On Thu, 11 Nov
2010 09:27:17 +0000, Matt Gray wrote:
"Opensuse aims to enable professional users by becoming the number one
portal for the development, distribution, and use of linux software."
How do we define a "professional user"?
ie, is a professional user a:
* Computing professional
* IT person
* Enterprise user
* Advanced home user (and if so, how do we define "advanced"?)
I think a professional user is that all. But the Enterprise User can use
SUSE Linux Enterprise. That´s not the "problem" of openSUSE. I think he
means an advanced user. In my eyes, this is a user who can install software
via the terminal, know how Linux works and maybe who can write code in C.
Regards,
kdl
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
From: Jim Henderson
Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2010 7:59 PM
To: opensuse-project(a)opensuse.org
Subject: [opensuse-project] Re: What's the latest on the strategy
discussion?
On Thu, 11 Nov 2010 09:27:17 +0000, Matt Gray wrote:
"Opensuse aims to enable professional users
by becoming the number one
portal for the development, distribution, and use of linux software."
How do we define a "professional user"?
ie, is a professional user a:
* Computing professional
* IT person
* Enterprise user
* Advanced home user (and if so, how do we define "advanced"?)
Jim
11 Nov
11 Nov
11:41 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: What's the latest on the strategy discussion?
Personally I would like: Opensuse - Linux for You!
this sentence
We cater to beginner or advanced users who
i would say
We cater to users who
Alin
On 11 November 2010 23:27, Thomas Thym <thomas.thym(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On Thursday 11 November 2010 20:28:35 wrote Kim Leyendecker:
I personally don't like the term "professional" very much, because many
things can be professional. In the strategy discussion we moved on, defining the target
user as the "interested user who is willing to learn". Such a user is able (and
willing) e.g. to use a forum. We don't have the ressources to spoonfeed too many and
we don't want to limit the flexibility of the user by making it "aunt
tilly"-friendly.
For more detaily see the strategy proposal here:
https://lite.co-ment.com/text/lNPCgzeGHdV/view/
(This site requires Firefox. Konqueror and Rekonq are not working properly.)
Cheers,
Thomas
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own taste. -- Marcel Duchamp
Without Questions there are no Answers!
_____________________________________________________________________
Alin Marin ELENA
Advanced Molecular Simulation Research Laboratory
School of Physics, University College Dublin
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Address:
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On Thu, 11
Nov 2010 09:27:17 +0000, Matt Gray wrote:
"Opensuse aims to enable professional users by becoming the number one
portal for the development, distribution, and use of linux software."
How do we define a "professional user"?
ie, is a professional user a:
* Computing professional
* IT person
* Enterprise user
* Advanced home user (and if so, how do we define "advanced"?)
I think a professional user is that all. But the Enterprise User can use
SUSE Linux Enterprise. That´s not the "problem" of openSUSE. I think he
means an advanced user. In my eyes, this is a user who can install software
via the terminal, know how Linux works and maybe who can write code in C.
Regards,
kdl
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
From: Jim Henderson
Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2010 7:59 PM
To: opensuse-project(a)opensuse.org
Subject: [opensuse-project] Re: What's the latest on the strategy
discussion?
On Thu, 11 Nov 2010 09:27:17 +0000, Matt Gray wrote:
"Opensuse aims to enable professional users
by becoming the number one
portal for the development, distribution, and use of linux software."
How do we define a "professional user"?
ie, is a professional user a:
* Computing professional
* IT person
* Enterprise user
* Advanced home user (and if so, how do we define "advanced"?)
Jim
11:43 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: What's the latest on the strategy discussion?
On Fri, 12 Nov 2010 00:27:23 +0100, Thomas Thym wrote:
I personally don't like the term
"professional" very much, because many
things can be professional. In the strategy discussion we moved on,
defining the target user as the "interested user who is willing to
learn".
Thanks for that info, I hadn't seen that in what I read, but I think that
definition is much more meaningful. :-)
Jim
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12 Nov
12 Nov
11:03 a.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: What's the latest on the strategy discussion?
On 11/11/10 18:59, Jim Henderson wrote:
On Thu, 11 Nov 2010 09:27:17 +0000, Matt Gray wrote:
good question, but i'd like to say it certainly isn't exclusive to those
who know how to use the command line or code C, as suggested above.
i certainly cannot do the above, but I work in an office that uses
gentoo and blender all day long, these I would consider professional users.
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"Opensuse aims to enable professional users
by becoming the number one
portal for the development, distribution, and use of linux software.
How do we
define a "professional user"?
ie, is a professional user a:
* Computing professional
* IT person
* Enterprise user
* Advanced home user (and if so, how do we define "advanced"?)
Jim
2:11 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: What's the latest on the strategy discussion?
"Opensuse aims to enable professional users by
becoming the number one
portal for the development, distribution, and use of linux software.
How do we
define a "professional user"?
ie, is a professional user a:
* Computing professional
* IT person
* Enterprise user
* Advanced home user (and if so, how do we define "advanced"?)
Jim
9:07 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: What's the latest on the strategy discussion?
On Fri, 12 Nov 2010 13:11:59 +0000, Administrator wrote:
Can I make a suggestion: that we separate the
definition of the detail
from the strategy itself. These definitions should be in an appendix to
the strategy (and will probably change over time). The strategy (e.g.
for the professional user) should stay more or less the same.
If we agree to this, we need to create a list of the main words or
phrases which need definition as we go along, and then come back to them
(or choose a small group of people who care) to create a definition.
This way we can agree the strategy without spending weeks discussing in
detail such concepts as "professional" or "power user" or
"meritocracy".
How do you propose we reach agreement on a strategy prior to defining the
terms used in the strategy?
ie, if we agree that openSUSE is for "professional users", how would you
expect anyone to agree on that strategy without a definition for what a
"professional user" is?
Jim
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9:20 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: What's the latest on the strategy discussion?
Op vrijdag 12 november 2010 21:07:20 schreef Jim Henderson:
How do you propose we reach agreement on a strategy
prior to defining the
terms used in the strategy?
ie, if we agree that openSUSE is for "professional users", how would you
expect anyone to agree on that strategy without a definition for what a
"professional user" is?
Simple, any user who considers him/herself a "professional user".
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Freek de Kruijf
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13 Nov
13 Nov
6:04 a.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: What's the latest on the strategy discussion?
On Friday 12 November 2010 14:20:55 Freek de Kruijf wrote:
Op vrijdag 12 november 2010 21:07:20 schreef Jim
Henderson:
Yes, that is one of options :)
My understanding of professional use case, in its widest meaning, is that
there should be no interruptions in daily work, but if it comes to problems
way back to stable environment should be as easy and fast as possible.
What that means in practice?
A lot of improvements to current defaults, like:
* take special care of software that can break whole system,
** list all packages that can do that
* keep old copy handy for easy replay,
** above listed packages will always have backup copy
* make one stable kernel always present as alternative,
** to prevent guesswork, let user decide which kernel is stable
Power users than can fix system, will benefit from having easy replay, because
they will spend lesser time reverting problematic changes, more doing what
they think it is a purpose of computers.
Distro will benefit from such system as users will not be afraid to install
newer versions if going back to working stuff is easy. Where easy doesn't
mean: going to YaST Software Management and digging in tabs (Version) to find
some numbers as versions, without notion of last installed , previous
installed.
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Rajko
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How do you propose we reach agreement on a
strategy prior to defining the
terms used in the strategy?
ie, if we agree that openSUSE is for "professional users", how would you
expect anyone to agree on that strategy without a definition for what a
"professional user" is?
Simple, any user who considers him/herself a "professional user".
9:58 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: What's the latest on the strategy discussion?
Yes, that´s looks good. I think a professional user is a person, who works
as admin. But he can be a person who likes computers, especially running
Linux and he know many about this system and his issues or something like
this. I think, a professional user can be put in two groups:
- Nerds, Geeks and Hackers: I think this is explaining by his self.
- The Home/Business-Pro: He knows many about Linux, can fix the system and
do the things Raiko M. says before.
regards
kdl
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
From: Rajko M.
Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2010 6:04 AM
To: opensuse-project(a)opensuse.org
Subject: Re: [opensuse-project] Re: What's the latest on the strategy
discussion?
On Friday 12 November 2010 14:20:55 Freek de Kruijf wrote:
Op vrijdag 12 november 2010 21:07:20 schreef Jim
Henderson:
Yes, that is one of options :)
My understanding of professional use case, in its widest meaning, is that
there should be no interruptions in daily work, but if it comes to problems
way back to stable environment should be as easy and fast as possible.
What that means in practice?
A lot of improvements to current defaults, like:
* take special care of software that can break whole system,
** list all packages that can do that
* keep old copy handy for easy replay,
** above listed packages will always have backup copy
* make one stable kernel always present as alternative,
** to prevent guesswork, let user decide which kernel is stable
Power users than can fix system, will benefit from having easy replay,
because
they will spend lesser time reverting problematic changes, more doing what
they think it is a purpose of computers.
Distro will benefit from such system as users will not be afraid to install
newer versions if going back to working stuff is easy. Where easy doesn't
mean: going to YaST Software Management and digging in tabs (Version) to
find
some numbers as versions, without notion of last installed , previous
installed.
--
Regards,
Rajko
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How do you propose we reach agreement on a
strategy prior to defining
the
terms used in the strategy?
ie, if we agree that openSUSE is for "professional users", how would you
expect anyone to agree on that strategy without a definition for what a
"professional user" is?
Simple, any user who considers him/herself a "professional user".
14 Nov
14 Nov
12:35 a.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: What's the latest on the strategy discussion? (Why not focus on quality?)
On Saturday 13 November 2010 14:58:18 Kim Leyendecker wrote:
Yes, that´s looks good. I think a professional user is
a person, who works
as admin. But he can be a person who likes computers, especially running
Linux and he know many about this system and his issues or something like
this. I think, a professional user can be put in two groups:
- Nerds, Geeks and Hackers: I think this is explaining by his self.
- The Home/Business-Pro: He knows many about Linux, can fix the system and
do the things Raiko M. says before.
Kim,
When we talk about professional, it is not only about computer and Linux
skills, but even if we narrow that to Linux professional, it is impossible to
know all aspects of Linux computing equally good. Even Linux professional will
appreciate that system as a whole is stable, so that he can play with
components that he knows good.
Professionals in other branches need stable system, so that they can actually
use software that is specific for their expertize, which can help adoption
rates when other around them see that computer just works.
When we go one step down to the Linux power user, a need for overall stability
is still present, as it is better to do something useful, even if that is
still attempt to break something, then to spend time fixing the system.
Then we can go one more step lower to the users that can understand
instructions how to fix a problem, but with much more lost time. They need
their computer running, as they probably want to do something else.
All users benefit from stable system, but having time for something else, is
useful for openSUSE too, like translating in their language, help fixing
usability bugs, planing next event, helping new users, installing openSUSE to
other people's computers (with confidence it will work), learning how to use
graphic programs, learning principles of graphic design, trying to connect
their instruments to computer, and so on.
Next step down in Linux skill level are new users that need stable system to
use it at all. They don't know how to fix system, they don't know much how to
configure system, but with stable system they have chance to learn how to use
it.
BTW, providing system that works nicely means much more time will be spent on
surrounding activities, not fighting bugs that majority are anyway not
qualified to do, not even to provide reasonably good feedback without a lot of
hand holding.
One of problems that openSUSE had in previous releases is too many annoyances
that can be overcome with some Linux experience, but I don't see the question:
"How many other people such experienced user can serve, after he is done with
his computer?"
In other words, increasing quality will give chance current users to spread
openSUSE, not just word about it :)
regards
kdl
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12:26 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: What's the latest on the strategy discussion? (Why not focus on quality?)
Op 14-11-10 00:35, Rajko M. schreef:
On Saturday 13 November 2010 14:58:18 Kim Leyendecker
wrote:
Very sound and sane spoken Rajko....
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OS: Linux 2.6.34-12-desktop x86_64
Huidige gebruiker: oddball@AMD64x2sfn1
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Yes, that´s looks good. I think a professional
user is a person, who works
as admin. But he can be a person who likes computers, especially running
Linux and he know many about this system and his issues or something like
this. I think, a professional user can be put in two groups:
- Nerds, Geeks and Hackers: I think this is explaining by his self.
- The Home/Business-Pro: He knows many about Linux, can fix the system and
do the things Raiko M. says before.
Kim,
When we talk about professional, it is not only about computer and Linux
skills, but even if we narrow that to Linux professional, it is impossible to
know all aspects of Linux computing equally good. Even Linux professional will
appreciate that system as a whole is stable, so that he can play with
components that he knows good.
Professionals in other branches need stable system, so that they can actually
use software that is specific for their expertize, which can help adoption
rates when other around them see that computer just works.
When we go one step down to the Linux power user, a need for overall stability
is still present, as it is better to do something useful, even if that is
still attempt to break something, then to spend time fixing the system.
Then we can go one more step lower to the users that can understand
instructions how to fix a problem, but with much more lost time. They need
their computer running, as they probably want to do something else.
All users benefit from stable system, but having time for something else, is
useful for openSUSE too, like translating in their language, help fixing
usability bugs, planing next event, helping new users, installing openSUSE to
other people's computers (with confidence it will work), learning how to use
graphic programs, learning principles of graphic design, trying to connect
their instruments to computer, and so on.
Next step down in Linux skill level are new users that need stable system to
use it at all. They don't know how to fix system, they don't know much how to
configure system, but with stable system they have chance to learn how to use
it.
BTW, providing system that works nicely means much more time will be spent on
surrounding activities, not fighting bugs that majority are anyway not
qualified to do, not even to provide reasonably good feedback without a lot of
hand holding.
One of problems that openSUSE had in previous releases is too many annoyances
that can be overcome with some Linux experience, but I don't see the question:
"How many other people such experienced user can serve, after he is done with
his computer?"
In other words, increasing quality will give chance current users to spread
openSUSE, not just word about it :)
regards
kdl
12:37 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: What's the latest on the strategy discussion? (Why not focus on quality?)
I´m understanding what you mean. I think a stable system for every one.
Professionals in other branches need stable system, so
that they can
actually
use software that is specific for their expertize, which can help adoption
rates when other around them see that computer just works.
I think these users mostly use SUSE Linux Enterprise. That´s in generell not
the problem of openSUSE (Yes, I know that openSUSE is the basesystem of SUSE
Linux Enterprise).
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
From: Rajko M.
Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 12:35 AM
To: opensuse-project(a)opensuse.org
Subject: Re: [opensuse-project] Re: What's the latest on the strategy
discussion? (Why not focus on quality?)
On Saturday 13 November 2010 14:58:18 Kim Leyendecker wrote:
Yes, that´s looks good. I think a professional user is
a person, who works
as admin. But he can be a person who likes computers, especially running
Linux and he know many about this system and his issues or something like
this. I think, a professional user can be put in two groups:
- Nerds, Geeks and Hackers: I think this is explaining by his self.
- The Home/Business-Pro: He knows many about Linux, can fix the system and
do the things Raiko M. says before.
Kim,
When we talk about professional, it is not only about computer and Linux
skills, but even if we narrow that to Linux professional, it is impossible
to
know all aspects of Linux computing equally good. Even Linux professional
will
appreciate that system as a whole is stable, so that he can play with
components that he knows good.
Professionals in other branches need stable system, so that they can
actually
use software that is specific for their expertize, which can help adoption
rates when other around them see that computer just works.
When we go one step down to the Linux power user, a need for overall
stability
is still present, as it is better to do something useful, even if that is
still attempt to break something, then to spend time fixing the system.
Then we can go one more step lower to the users that can understand
instructions how to fix a problem, but with much more lost time. They need
their computer running, as they probably want to do something else.
All users benefit from stable system, but having time for something else, is
useful for openSUSE too, like translating in their language, help fixing
usability bugs, planing next event, helping new users, installing openSUSE
to
other people's computers (with confidence it will work), learning how to use
graphic programs, learning principles of graphic design, trying to connect
their instruments to computer, and so on.
Next step down in Linux skill level are new users that need stable system to
use it at all. They don't know how to fix system, they don't know much how
to
configure system, but with stable system they have chance to learn how to
use
it.
BTW, providing system that works nicely means much more time will be spent
on
surrounding activities, not fighting bugs that majority are anyway not
qualified to do, not even to provide reasonably good feedback without a lot
of
hand holding.
One of problems that openSUSE had in previous releases is too many
annoyances
that can be overcome with some Linux experience, but I don't see the
question:
"How many other people such experienced user can serve, after he is done
with
his computer?"
In other words, increasing quality will give chance current users to spread
openSUSE, not just word about it :)
regards
kdl
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Regards,
Rajko
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10:05 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: What's the latest on the strategy discussion?
On Fri, 12 Nov 2010 21:20:55 +0100, Freek de Kruijf wrote:
Op vrijdag 12 november 2010 21:07:20 schreef Jim
Henderson:
That makes it a pretty difficult target to hit, since every single user
of openSUSE can define themselves as a "professional user" and then say
"and it doesn't work for me".
I think we need to define it, not say "we make this distribution for what
every individual user decides is a professional user by selecting
openSUSE".
I get what you're saying: self-selection. I just don't see that working
since it'd be fairly difficult to build to a target of self-selecting
individuals.
Jim
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Jim Henderson
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How do you propose we reach agreement on a
strategy prior to defining
the terms used in the strategy?
ie, if we agree that openSUSE is for "professional users", how would
you expect anyone to agree on that strategy without a definition for
what a "professional user" is?
Simple, any user who considers him/herself a "professional user".
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