Hey folks,
recently someone asked me if I can point out particular examples of sexist blogposts in the context of openSUSE community. So be it - here's the fresh one: http://rauhmaru.blogspot.com/2010/08/parabens-opensuse-5-anos-de- vida.html
It's not that I would be a close-minded prude - I wouldn't say a word if someone posted pics of nude or scantily clad chicks to his personal blog, not aggregated on a community Planet - but associating Playboy-like pics with 5th anniversary of openSUSE? How unproffesional (to put it mildly).
Unless, of course, the author of the post wanted to imply that we're the best and the stablest distro for pr0n server. Now everyone can answer a question if this is the kind of publicity we want for themselves.
Please drop this gentleman some nice comments :)
B.
Ahoj,
On Tuesday 10 August 2010 15:45:27 Katarina Machalkova wrote:
recently someone asked me if I can point out particular examples of sexist blogposts in the context of openSUSE community. So be it - here's the fresh one: http://rauhmaru.blogspot.com/2010/08/parabens-opensuse-5-anos-de- vida.html
To bad that this link is down already and only gives a:
"Desculpe, a página que você está procurando no blog BLOGMARU não existe"
It's not that I would be a close-minded prude - I wouldn't say a word if someone posted pics of nude or scantily clad chicks to his personal blog, not aggregated on a community Planet - but associating Playboy-like pics with 5th anniversary of openSUSE? How unproffesional (to put it mildly).
Oh thats unprofessional - but teaching czech swear words to germans is fine? Did you try to ask the guy why he did what you imposed?
Unless, of course, the author of the post wanted to imply that we're the best and the stablest distro for pr0n server. Now everyone can answer a question if this is the kind of publicity we want for themselves.
Censorship sucks and if "open" doesnt mean what it says then it is censorship!
Please drop this gentleman some nice comments :)
It seems that someone already did - they shut him down - at least with his comment. If you think that this is "free" and "open" - thank you for supporting censorship!
Am Mittwoch, 11. August 2010, 01:01:33 schrieb konichiwamonsta@gmx.de:
Ahoj,
On Tuesday 10 August 2010 15:45:27 Katarina Machalkova wrote:
recently someone asked me if I can point out particular examples of sexist blogposts in the context of openSUSE community. So be it - here's the fresh one: http://rauhmaru.blogspot.com/2010/08/parabens-opensuse-5-anos-de- vida.html
To bad that this link is down already and only gives a:
"Desculpe, a página que você está procurando no blog BLOGMARU não existe"
This is the new entry, the old picture is linked as well http://rauhmaru.blogspot.com/2010/08/parabens-opensuse-5-anos-de-vida.html
It's not that I would be a close-minded prude - I wouldn't say a word if someone posted pics of nude or scantily clad chicks to his personal blog, not aggregated on a community Planet - but associating Playboy-like pics with 5th anniversary of openSUSE? How unproffesional (to put it mildly).
Oh thats unprofessional - but teaching czech swear words to germans is fine? Did you try to ask the guy why he did what you imposed?
Unless, of course, the author of the post wanted to imply that we're the best and the stablest distro for pr0n server. Now everyone can answer a question if this is the kind of publicity we want for themselves.
Censorship sucks and if "open" doesnt mean what it says then it is censorship!
No one limits what Raul does or does not post on his blog, it's just against the guidelines of the planet. It's not open for a lot of things and that what makes it a pleasent read for most of the time. I don't think Raul intended this picture to be sexist but more as aesthetic, still the ladies sure aren't there for much anything besides looks.
Please drop this gentleman some nice comments :)
It seems that someone already did - they shut him down - at least with his comment. If you think that this is "free" and "open" - thank you for supporting censorship!
http://mvidner.blogspot.com/2010/08/who-does-not-want-such-gift.html Martin Vidner and Bryen Yunashko drove that as far as I can see, they handled it according to the guidelines.
Sucks though it's actually about celebrating opensuses anniversary, Raul gets slapped in public for his enthusiasm, was this really the best way to handle it? I think it doesn't raise awareness about the problem in a useful way.
Regards, Karsten
Unless, of course, the author of the post wanted to imply that we're the best and the stablest distro for pr0n server. Now everyone can answer a question if this is the kind of publicity we want for themselves.
Censorship sucks and if "open" doesnt mean what it says then it is censorship!
Please drop this gentleman some nice comments :)
It seems that someone already did - they shut him down - at least with his comment. If you think that this is "free" and "open" - thank you for supporting censorship!
All organisations have rules, whether stated or not. One of the rules of this "open" organisation is respect for other people, which could be interpreted as being sensitive to offending half the human race.
I suspect a lot of the offence comes from the association with Playboy, which is closer to voyeurism than celebrating the female form. A picture from Botticelli would probably not have caused such offence ;-)
David
El 10/08/10 09:45, Katarina Machalkova escribió:
It's not that I would be a close-minded prude - I wouldn't say a word if someone posted pics of nude or scantily clad chicks to his personal blog, not aggregated on a community Planet - but associating Playboy-like pics with 5th anniversary of openSUSE? How unproffesional (to put it mildly).
Culture shock Katarina, that's it. nothing more to say.
El 10/08/10 19:42, Cristian Rodríguez escribió:
Culture shock Katarina, that's it. nothing more to say.
http://www2.hu-berlin.de/sexology/IES/brazil.html
Am Dienstag, den 10.08.2010, 15:45 +0200 schrieb Katarina Machalkova:
Hey folks,
recently someone asked me if I can point out particular examples of sexist blogposts in the context of openSUSE community. So be it - here's the fresh one: http://rauhmaru.blogspot.com/2010/08/parabens-opensuse-5-anos-de- vida.html
It's not that I would be a close-minded prude - I wouldn't say a word if someone posted pics of nude or scantily clad chicks to his personal blog, not aggregated on a community Planet - but associating Playboy-like pics with 5th anniversary of openSUSE? How unproffesional (to put it mildly).
Unless, of course, the author of the post wanted to imply that we're the best and the stablest distro for pr0n server. Now everyone can answer a question if this is the kind of publicity we want for themselves.
Please drop this gentleman some nice comments :)
Ok then I blame myself
http://karl-tux-stadt.de/ktuxs/?p=663
and its really a suse topic because the girl had a geeko on it so take a look
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Body_painting.JPG
br gnokii
B.
TEST RESPONSE; PLEASE IGNORE
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
On 08/10/2010 03:45 PM, Katarina Machalkova wrote:
recently someone asked me if I can point out particular examples of sexist blogposts in the context of openSUSE community. So be it - here's the fresh one: http://rauhmaru.blogspot.com/2010/08/parabens-opensuse-5-anos-de- vida.html
[...]
Hi Katarina
Thanks for the hint. And sorry for the lag.
As the administrator of Planet openSUSE, I took the decision to remove Raul's feed.
Not because of the post in itself. After all, we're all allowed to fail in certain regards, and everyone is entitled to learn from mistakes.
I did so because of what I could understand from his remarks on his blog (that it is censorship) and because he re-posted it. That doesn't show a will to learn from mistakes. Nor a sufficient level of maturity.
As said before, Raul is entitled to post whatever he wants on his blog, but not on Planet openSUSE. And everyone can make mistakes. But when pointed out, those should be corrected. And for those who confuse our Guidelines with censorship, read them again.
cheers - -- -o) Pascal Bleser pascal.bleser@opensuse.org /\ http://opensuse.org -- I took the green pill __v FOSDEM::6+7 Feb 2010, Brussels, http://fosdem.org
recently someone asked me if I can point out particular examples of
sexist
blogposts in the context of openSUSE community. So be it - here's the
fresh
one: http://rauhmaru.blogspot.com/2010/08/parabens-opensuse-5-anos-de- vida.html
[...]
Hi Katarina
Thanks for the hint. And sorry for the lag.
As the administrator of Planet openSUSE, I took the decision to remove Raul's feed.
Not because of the post in itself. After all, we're all allowed to fail in certain regards, and everyone is entitled to learn from mistakes.
I did so because of what I could understand from his remarks on his blog (that it is censorship) and because he re-posted it. That doesn't show a will to learn from mistakes. Nor a sufficient level of maturity.
As said before, Raul is entitled to post whatever he wants on his blog, but not on Planet openSUSE. And everyone can make mistakes. But when pointed out, those should be corrected. And for those who confuse our Guidelines with censorship, read them again.
I'm sure it's unnecessary but I'd like to support Pascal and the guidelines here. All communities have rules, both written and unwritten. A fundamental value of openSUSE is respect for others, and this image did not show respect for the feelings and sensibility of half the human race.
If, instead, he'd chosen a picture by Botticelli or Rubens then we could have admired the female form without the associations of the Playboy Club ;-)
David
On Thu, 2010-08-12 at 08:49 +0100, Administrator wrote:
recently someone asked me if I can point out particular examples of
sexist
blogposts in the context of openSUSE community. So be it - here's the
fresh
one: http://rauhmaru.blogspot.com/2010/08/parabens-opensuse-5-anos-de- vida.html
[...]
Hi Katarina
Thanks for the hint. And sorry for the lag.
As the administrator of Planet openSUSE, I took the decision to remove Raul's feed.
Not because of the post in itself. After all, we're all allowed to fail in certain regards, and everyone is entitled to learn from mistakes.
I did so because of what I could understand from his remarks on his blog (that it is censorship) and because he re-posted it. That doesn't show a will to learn from mistakes. Nor a sufficient level of maturity.
As said before, Raul is entitled to post whatever he wants on his blog, but not on Planet openSUSE. And everyone can make mistakes. But when pointed out, those should be corrected. And for those who confuse our Guidelines with censorship, read them again.
I'm sure it's unnecessary but I'd like to support Pascal and the guidelines here. All communities have rules, both written and unwritten. A fundamental value of openSUSE is respect for others, and this image did not show respect for the feelings and sensibility of half the human race.
If, instead, he'd chosen a picture by Botticelli or Rubens then we could have admired the female form without the associations of the Playboy Club ;-)
David
I also concur that Pascal has made a wise decision to nip this in the bud before it gets any worse.
Bryen
On Thu, 12 Aug 2010 03:30:07 -0500, Bryen M. Yunashko wrote:
I also concur that Pascal has made a wise decision to nip this in the bud before it gets any worse.
I couldn't agree more. Not to mention as well that such an image would be considered "Not Safe For Work", and that's the last thing we need is to be associated with people getting fired (worst case scenario, of course) for reading blogs about openSUSE that are linked from PlanetSUSE.
Such guidelines should pretty clearly spell out that if content is NSFW, it doesn't belong on an openSUSE site, period, end of story.
Jim
Jim Henderson wrote:
On Thu, 12 Aug 2010 03:30:07 -0500, Bryen M. Yunashko wrote:
I also concur that Pascal has made a wise decision to nip this in the bud before it gets any worse.
I couldn't agree more. Not to mention as well that such an image would be considered "Not Safe For Work", and that's the last thing we need is to be associated with people getting fired (worst case scenario, of course) for reading blogs about openSUSE that are linked from PlanetSUSE.
Such guidelines should pretty clearly spell out that if content is NSFW, it doesn't belong on an openSUSE site, period, end of story.
Aren't we getting a little carried away here? To start with, NSFW according to which culture and whose rules? (rhetorical, no need to reply),
/Per Jessen, Zurich there is far too much PC in the world.
I know you said your questions are rhetorical and there's no need to reply, but I feel somewhat compelled to reply regardless. :-)
On Fri, 13 Aug 2010 08:55:32 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:
Such guidelines should pretty clearly spell out that if content is NSFW, it doesn't belong on an openSUSE site, period, end of story.
Aren't we getting a little carried away here?
Perhaps on that front - the overriding issue is the issue that Katarina brought up, of course.
To start with, NSFW according to which culture and whose rules?
I'd say that for something like this, fairly conservative rules are what would make sense. In this case, we're talking about the objectification of women, and I think you'd be hard pressed to find a modern culture that deemed that acceptable.
It's not a question of PC-ness, it's a question of being respectful - and it's a question of the image of the openSUSE project as a whole. On a personal blog, I might find it inappropriate, but it's not a personal blog that represents a product or service that I'm interested in. Pulled into a website that is official for a product or service I care very much for, though, it's totally inappropriate because the reader/viewer can take that publication to be acceptance of that as a social norm/standard, and that's what makes it objectionable from a project standpoint.
Jim
I know you said your questions are rhetorical and there's no need to reply, but I feel somewhat compelled to reply regardless. :-)
On Fri, 13 Aug 2010 08:55:32 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:
Such guidelines should pretty clearly spell out that if content is NSFW, it doesn't belong on an openSUSE site, period, end of story.
Aren't we getting a little carried away here?
Perhaps on that front - the overriding issue is the issue that Katarina brought up, of course.
To start with, NSFW according to which culture and whose rules?
I'd say that for something like this, fairly conservative rules are what would make sense. In this case, we're talking about the objectification of women, and I think you'd be hard pressed to find a modern culture that deemed that acceptable.
It's not a question of PC-ness, it's a question of being respectful - and it's a question of the image of the openSUSE project as a whole. On a personal blog, I might find it inappropriate, but it's not a personal blog that represents a product or service that I'm interested in. Pulled into a website that is official for a product or service I care very much for, though, it's totally inappropriate because the reader/viewer can take that publication to be acceptance of that as a social norm/standard, and that's what makes it objectionable from a project standpoint.
If you want a comparison point for cultural factors, try this: http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/technology/a rticle6811478.ece. This was a nice mess caused by a local team using local cultural factors to make the ad more locally acceptable, but its impact globally was definitely negative. You can't get it right all the time, but a bit of thinking would have told the local team that what they were doing was going to be a problem. The same with this image. We all have to be mindful of the global audience for everything we do on the internet.
David
On Fri, 13 Aug 2010 17:47:05 +0100, Administrator wrote:
If you want a comparison point for cultural factors, try this: http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/
technology/a
rticle6811478.ece. This was a nice mess caused by a local team using local cultural factors to make the ad more locally acceptable, but its impact globally was definitely negative. You can't get it right all the time, but a bit of thinking would have told the local team that what they were doing was going to be a problem. The same with this image. We all have to be mindful of the global audience for everything we do on the internet.
Well stated, David. :-)
Jim
Jim Henderson wrote:
I know you said your questions are rhetorical and there's no need to reply, but I feel somewhat compelled to reply regardless. :-)
Yeah, I didn't think it would be enough to keep you away. <smile>
On Fri, 13 Aug 2010 08:55:32 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:
Such guidelines should pretty clearly spell out that if content is NSFW, it doesn't belong on an openSUSE site, period, end of story.
Aren't we getting a little carried away here?
Perhaps on that front - the overriding issue is the issue that Katarina brought up, of course.
To start with, NSFW according to which culture and whose rules?
I'd say that for something like this, fairly conservative rules are what would make sense. In this case, we're talking about the objectification of women, and I think you'd be hard pressed to find a modern culture that deemed that acceptable.
Yet it happens all the time and in many places it's not considered a big deal. That's not the same as saying it's acceptable, but that's is also not a reason for us - the openSUSE project - to be spending a lot of time and words on discussing it, not to mention trying to do something about it.
It's not a question of PC-ness, it's a question of being respectful - and it's a question of the image of the openSUSE project as a whole.
Hmm, I think I'll stick to thinking it's PC-ness.
On Wed, 18 Aug 2010 10:43:07 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:
Jim Henderson wrote:
I know you said your questions are rhetorical and there's no need to reply, but I feel somewhat compelled to reply regardless. :-)
Yeah, I didn't think it would be enough to keep you away. <smile>
You know me too well. ;-)
I'd say that for something like this, fairly conservative rules are what would make sense. In this case, we're talking about the objectification of women, and I think you'd be hard pressed to find a modern culture that deemed that acceptable.
Yet it happens all the time and in many places it's not considered a big deal. That's not the same as saying it's acceptable, but that's is also not a reason for us - the openSUSE project - to be spending a lot of time and words on discussing it, not to mention trying to do something about it.
It's easy to sit back and say it's "not a big deal" when one is not a part of the group that something offensive is being offensive about. I understand what you're saying here, but you aren't female (I'm guessing) and I'm not, so neither of us have had the experience of being treated like one - but I'm sure that this sort of thing popping up gets old after a while.
It seems, though, that the individual who hosts the page in question didn't know he was being syndicated on lizards. That may be a better topic for discussion - ie, informing those who are to be syndicated, getting their OK on it, and attaching some terms & conditions to that so it's recognised that with that syndication comes some responsibilities, one of which is to make an attempt not to offend our membership/user base and to deal with any such material appropriately when it's brought to their attention - or to decide to opt out.
It's not a question of PC-ness, it's a question of being respectful - and it's a question of the image of the openSUSE project as a whole.
Hmm, I think I'll stick to thinking it's PC-ness.
You certainly can do that, I wouldn't try (and couldn't) stop you. ;-)
Jim
Jim Henderson wrote:
I'd say that for something like this, fairly conservative rules are what would make sense. In this case, we're talking about the objectification of women, and I think you'd be hard pressed to find a modern culture that deemed that acceptable.
Yet it happens all the time and in many places it's not considered a big deal. That's not the same as saying it's acceptable, but that's is also not a reason for us - the openSUSE project - to be spending a lot of time and words on discussing it, not to mention trying to do something about it.
It's easy to sit back and say it's "not a big deal" when one is not a part of the group that something offensive is being offensive about.
I know I should take my own medicine and just shut up, so I'll (try to) keep it short. I tend to think it's no big deal because - it affects half the poulation of any given country, but without causing any visible problems. Nobody is out demonstrating, fighting on the barricades, throwing fire-bombs, writing long and boring letters to their favourite editors etc etc. Instead, the female population of many countries frequently and voluntarily wear less clothing than the ones that sparked this debate. I regularly visit both northern and southern Europe, and it is certainly the case in e.g. Greece and Denmark.
On Wed, 18 Aug 2010 18:50:07 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:
I know I should take my own medicine and just shut up, so I'll (try to) keep it short.
Fair enough, and I'll do the same here. :-)
I tend to think it's no big deal because - it affects half the poulation of any given country, but without causing any visible problems.
This type of action against a minority group often doesn't cause any visible problems, but that doesn't make it right or even OK.
Nobody is out demonstrating, fighting on the barricades, throwing fire-bombs, writing long and boring letters to their favourite editors etc etc. Instead, the female population of many countries frequently and voluntarily wear less clothing than the ones that sparked this debate. I regularly visit both northern and southern Europe, and it is certainly the case in e.g. Greece and Denmark.
That's a question of choice or local custom (or both), which is why it's important to consider a broader audience than just the most 'permissive' audience.
The fact that some members of a group voluntarily decide to show more skin than others doesn't mean it's OK to objectify the entire membership of the group.
Anyways, we're getting more off-topic now, I think, so I'd be happy to continue the conversation via private e-mail - feel free to reply to me off-list if you want to continue the discussion.
Jim
On Wednesday 18 August 2010 19:08:58 Jim Henderson wrote:
On Wed, 18 Aug 2010 18:50:07 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:
I know I should take my own medicine and just shut up, so I'll (try to) keep it short.
Fair enough, and I'll do the same here. :-)
Boys and girls, please! Its enough said on this topic, this does not move openSUSE forward. Please continue on a private base with this topic, but help to keep the project list tidy, thanks so much,
Klaas
Klaas Freitag wrote:
On Wednesday 18 August 2010 19:08:58 Jim Henderson wrote:
On Wed, 18 Aug 2010 18:50:07 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:
I know I should take my own medicine and just shut up, so I'll (try to) keep it short.
Fair enough, and I'll do the same here. :-)
Boys and girls, please! Its enough said on this topic, this does not move openSUSE forward. Please continue on a private base with this topic, but help to keep the project list tidy, thanks so much,
Klaas, this thread actually stopped five days ago when we moved off-line.
Per Jessen wrote:
Klaas Freitag wrote:
On Wednesday 18 August 2010 19:08:58 Jim Henderson wrote:
On Wed, 18 Aug 2010 18:50:07 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:
I know I should take my own medicine and just shut up, so I'll (try to) keep it short.
Fair enough, and I'll do the same here. :-)
Boys and girls, please! Its enough said on this topic, this does not move openSUSE forward. Please continue on a private base with this topic, but help to keep the project list tidy, thanks so much,
Klaas, this thread actually stopped five days ago when we moved off-line.
apparently, five days silent wasn't enough...huh?
Per Jessen wrote:
Klaas Freitag wrote:
On Wednesday 18 August 2010 19:08:58 Jim Henderson wrote:
On Wed, 18 Aug 2010 18:50:07 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:
I know I should take my own medicine and just shut up, so I'll (try to) keep it short.
Fair enough, and I'll do the same here. :-)
Boys and girls, please! Its enough said on this topic, this does not move openSUSE forward. Please continue on a private base with this topic, but help to keep the project list tidy, thanks so much,
Klaas, this thread actually stopped five days ago when we moved off-line.
apparently, five days silent wasn't enough...huh?
The dead walk! All I need to do is mention KDE and Gnome and this corpse will leap into life and dance round the room! Some people's passions are aroused by voluptuous bodies, some by desktops. It's all clatter when the dust settles. The interpretation is inside people's heads.
Anyone for a grey cat?
David
On Mon, 23 Aug 2010 13:11:02 +0200, Klaas Freitag wrote:
Please continue on a private base with this topic
Klaas, we did. 5 days ago. Why resurrect this discussion now after it's over?
Jim
On 12/08/10 09:26, Pascal Bleser wrote:
On 08/10/2010 03:45 PM, Katarina Machalkova wrote:
recently someone asked me if I can point out particular examples of sexist blogposts in the context of openSUSE community. So be it - here's the fresh one: http://rauhmaru.blogspot.com/2010/08/parabens-opensuse-5-anos-de- vida.html
[...]
Hi Katarina
Thanks for the hint. And sorry for the lag.
As the administrator of Planet openSUSE, I took the decision to remove Raul's feed.
Not because of the post in itself. After all, we're all allowed to fail in certain regards, and everyone is entitled to learn from mistakes.
I did so because of what I could understand from his remarks on his blog (that it is censorship) and because he re-posted it. That doesn't show a will to learn from mistakes. Nor a sufficient level of maturity.
As said before, Raul is entitled to post whatever he wants on his blog, but not on Planet openSUSE. And everyone can make mistakes. But when pointed out, those should be corrected. And for those who confuse our Guidelines with censorship, read them again.
Thanks to both of you. pistazienfresser
Anyway, I also thank you.
I do not remember having allowed my blog to be annexed by the planet. Or did I? I think not ...
That's it. :)
On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 04:26, Pascal Bleser pascal.bleser@opensuse.org wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
On 08/10/2010 03:45 PM, Katarina Machalkova wrote:
recently someone asked me if I can point out particular examples of sexist blogposts in the context of openSUSE community. So be it - here's the fresh one: http://rauhmaru.blogspot.com/2010/08/parabens-opensuse-5-anos-de- vida.html
[...]
Hi Katarina
Thanks for the hint. And sorry for the lag.
As the administrator of Planet openSUSE, I took the decision to remove Raul's feed.
Not because of the post in itself. After all, we're all allowed to fail in certain regards, and everyone is entitled to learn from mistakes.
I did so because of what I could understand from his remarks on his blog (that it is censorship) and because he re-posted it. That doesn't show a will to learn from mistakes. Nor a sufficient level of maturity.
As said before, Raul is entitled to post whatever he wants on his blog, but not on Planet openSUSE. And everyone can make mistakes. But when pointed out, those should be corrected. And for those who confuse our Guidelines with censorship, read them again.
cheers
-o) Pascal Bleser pascal.bleser@opensuse.org /\ http://opensuse.org -- I took the green pill __v FOSDEM::6+7 Feb 2010, Brussels, http://fosdem.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.15 (GNU/Linux)
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Cristian Rodríguez -
DenverD -
Jim Henderson -
Karsten König -
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Klaas Freitag -
konichiwamonsta＠gmx.de -
Pascal Bleser -
Per Jessen -
pistazienfresser (see profile) -
Raul -
S.Kemter