On 18.01.2012 15:25, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

* Joop Boonen [01-18-12 04:03]:

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On Wed, January 18, 2012 9:51 am, Per Jessen wrote:

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Just my opinion - I think openSUSE should stay far away from politics of any kind.

I don't think this is politics, this is about our internet freedom.

I agree that openSUSE supports the SOPA blackout. +1

+1 me too. Why? My website is hosted in Germany so I could kick back and enjoy the show but... what if this whole thing come to Europe too? We're importing much of the US lifestyle (or what we think it is) so why not SOPA and friends? The internet is a global place that provides freedom and liberty. We have to keep that. Even if it's not worth fighting for freedom, it's worth protesting for. So, openSUSE definitely done right. And to all who think this should stay US-only: 1) The USA is the last super power on earth (I know, China is coming, but today, it's still our lovely US.), that means world-wide influence. 2) The Bill of rights is talking about something like "We hold this truths to be self-evident that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with certain, unalienable rights these are among, life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness." I wrote it by heart so it might be wrong. The point is, with the major influence of the USA in mind, we all are Americans to some degree. Of course, we can't take influence in US politics as long as we aren't "real" Americans or least have our residence in the states, but we all have a voice that can speak up. 3) The US claims to be the "mother of liberty". Well, SOPA and friends are convincing me of the contrary. That's why we protest against it. There's an "open" in openSUSE, and if something with major influence tries to block the "open", we have to protest against it. It's that easy. @Joop: The Netherlands haven't major influence? Well, not quite right, actually. They are an EU-member, and if the EU-states would work togehter more effective, the EU could really become world's next super power, among the US and China. But that's another topic I guess. --kdl -- Kim Leyendecker, openSUSE Wiki Team GPG Key: 664265369547B825 | leyendecker@opensuse.org http://www.opensuse.org - Linux for open minds -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On 18.01.2012 17:38, K. Dennis Leyendecker wrote:

On 18.01.2012 15:25, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

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* Joop Boonen [01-18-12 04:03]:

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Just my opinion - I think openSUSE should stay far away from

On Wed, January 18, 2012 9:51 am, Per Jessen wrote: politics of any kind.

I don't think this is politics, this is about our internet freedom.

I agree that openSUSE supports the SOPA blackout. +1

+1 me too.

Why? My website is hosted in Germany so I could kick back and enjoy the show but... what if this whole thing come to Europe too? We're importing much of the US lifestyle (or what we think it is) so why not SOPA and friends?

The internet is a global place that provides freedom and liberty. We have to keep that. Even if it's not worth fighting for freedom, it's worth protesting for.

So, openSUSE definitely done right.

And to all who think this should stay US-only:

1) The USA is the last super power on earth (I know, China is coming, but today, it's still our lovely US.), that means world-wide influence. 2) The Bill of rights is talking about something like "We hold this truths to be self-evident that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with certain, unalienable rights these are among, life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness." I quoted it by heart so it might be wrong.

The point is, with the major influence of the USA in mind, we all are Americans to some degree. Of course, we can't take influence in US politics as long as we aren't "real" Americans or least have our residence in the states, but we all have a voice that can speak up.

3) The US claims to be the "mother of liberty". Well, SOPA and friends are convincing me of the contrary. That's why we protest against it.

There's an "open" in openSUSE, and if something with major influence tries to block the "open", we have to protest against it. It's that easy.

@Joop: The Netherlands haven't major influence? Well, not quite right, actually. They are an EU-member, and if the EU-states would work togehter more effective, the EU could really become world's next super power, among the US and China. But that's another topic I guess.

--kdl

Sorry for sending this twice, but the connection to my imap-server failed once, so I tried it another time. In the end, both messages made it to the list. Sorry for that. -- Kim Leyendecker, openSUSE Wiki Team GPG Key: 664265369547B825 | leyendecker@opensuse.org http://www.opensuse.org - Linux for open minds -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

* Jim Henderson [2012-01-18 18:04]:

On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 09:25:00 -0500, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

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* Joop Boonen [01-18-12 04:03]:

...

On Wed, January 18, 2012 9:51 am, Per Jessen wrote:

...

Just my opinion - I think openSUSE should stay far away from politics of any kind.

I don't think this is politics, this is about our internet freedom.

I agree that openSUSE supports the SOPA blackout.

+1

Same here.

One thing to consider is the potential impact of a law like PIPA or SOPA (the latter of which is apparently dead for the time being) on those outside the US.

openSUSE and open source is about freedom. As has been pointed out already, the nature of OSS projects is political.

How would we like it if the US government decided to shut down the openSUSE wiki because we link to the Packman repository, which contains code that violates DMCA?

The slippery slope here isn't participation in the blackout. The slippery slope is a large, technologically literate population losing the freedom to participate in an OSS project because they can't access it - and have no recourse to resolve it. No trial, no jury.

So when is www.opensuse.org going to protest against Chinese internet censorship? Your argument applies there just as well (and probably in numerous other cases). -- Guido Berhoerster -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

This surely is a matter that does not affect everyone equally, but I can speak from my point of view and my relationship with openSUSE. I live in the U.S. and this bill will actually affect em in case I want to access a foreign website which may have been shut down because of this bill. Accordingly, let's say that the website in question is opensuse.org. I will not be able to connect with the artists that I work with and the artwork that I need to provide for the project. I will not be able to communicate, neither participate of this community. That would be a great loss for me. To see that opensuse.org is actually part of this blackout makes me feel included in the problem, for it DOES affect people in the community like me. Thank you openSUSE for showing that in this community, my problems are your problems too. Andy (anditosan) PS: Don't forget to submit your wallpaper before saturday for 12.2 :D On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 10:47 AM, Guido Berhoerster wrote:

* Jim Henderson [2012-01-18 18:04]:

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On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 09:25:00 -0500, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

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* Joop Boonen [01-18-12 04:03]:

...

On Wed, January 18, 2012 9:51 am, Per Jessen wrote:

...

Just my opinion - I think openSUSE should stay far away from politics of any kind.

I don't think this is politics, this is about our internet freedom.

I agree that openSUSE supports the SOPA blackout.

+1

Same here.

One thing to consider is the potential impact of a law like PIPA or SOPA (the latter of which is apparently dead for the time being) on those outside the US.

openSUSE and open source is about freedom.  As has been pointed out already, the nature of OSS projects is political.

How would we like it if the US government decided to shut down the openSUSE wiki because we link to the Packman repository, which contains code that violates DMCA?

The slippery slope here isn't participation in the blackout.  The slippery slope is a large, technologically literate population losing the freedom to participate in an OSS project because they can't access it - and have no recourse to resolve it.  No trial, no jury.

So when is www.opensuse.org going to protest against Chinese internet censorship? Your argument applies there just as well (and probably in numerous other cases). -- Guido Berhoerster -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On Wed, 2012-01-18 at 13:16 -0500, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:

On Wed, 2012-01-18 at 18:47 +0100, Guido Berhoerster wrote:

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...

The slippery slope here isn't participation in the blackout. The slippery slope is a large, technologically literate population losing the freedom to participate in an OSS project because they can't access it - and have no recourse to resolve it. No trial, no jury. So when is www.opensuse.org going to protest against Chinese internet censorship? Your argument applies there just as well (and probably in numerous other cases).

Ugh, this is going to go on forever isn't it.

Nah, just until midnight. :-) Bryen -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 18:47:53 +0100, Guido Berhoerster wrote:

So when is www.opensuse.org going to protest against Chinese internet censorship? Your argument applies there just as well (and probably in numerous other cases).

Do we have a large number of contributors from China currently participating in the project? Do we have a large installed userbase in China? Certainly the "Great Firewall of China" needs to be dealt with, but there is a significant difference between the US and China. The US is supposedly a "free" country. But due process and other core principles of US freedoms are under attack by laws like SOPA, DMCA, PIPA, etc. And those changes in US law have implications outside the US. It's curious that you would equate the two situations - because they're very, *very* different. They're only similar in that they're about censorship by the government. But the historical backgrounds of the two countries are very, very different. That doesn't mean what happens in China is right. It isn't. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 20:32:55 +0100, K. Dennis Leyendecker wrote:

On 18.01.2012 20:06, Jim Henderson wrote:

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Do we have a large number of contributors from China currently participating in the project? Do we have a large installed userbase in China?

afaik no. But I'd like to be convinced otherwise.

As would I. :)

...

Certainly the "Great Firewall of China" needs to be dealt with, but there is a significant difference between the US and China.

The US is supposedly a "free" country. But due process and other core principles of US freedoms are under attack by laws like SOPA, DMCA, PIPA, etc. And those changes in US law have implications outside the US.

Well, it's not just the them, it's also almost everything released by the Bush government that decline US citizen's freedom and rights. SOPA is just the next step towards total censorship.

I think there's enough blame to go around, and at this stage, pointing fingers isn't going to help or move the discussion forward.

...

It's curious that you would equate the two situations - because they're very,*very* different. They're only similar in that they're about censorship by the government. But the historical backgrounds of the two countries are very, very different.

That doesn't mean what happens in China is right. It isn't.

Totally agree. I'd like to protest against China's government too, but if we would do so, we would need to protest against everything, so no work wouldn't be done anymore. Btw, we're not the only ones who are protesting against it, right? Is there a list of protesters anywhere?

I saw a site earlier today with a list of supporters - in fact, I think the site that the openSUSE site points to includes a list. The Register had a link to a site as well, and I think Google did as well. Wikipedia may well have a link to a list, too. It's not just us, that's for sure. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On Thu, Jan 19, 2012 at 10:11, Per Jessen wrote:

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It's not just us, that's for sure.

There is a long list somewhere.  However, not even the Wikipediae around the world could agree:

http://en.wikipedia.org - blackout as announced.

http://de.wikipedia.org - a black banner mentioning SOPA. http://nl.wikipedia.org - a black banner mentioning SOPA. http://it.wikipedia.org - a black banner mentioning SOPA. http://es.wikipedia.org - a black banner mentioning SOPA.

http://da.wikipedia.org - a tiny link on black background.

http://fr.wikipedia.org - SOAP was briefly mentioned under todays themes.

http://tr.wikipedia.org - I think there is a banner mentioning SOPA. http://fi.wikipedia.org - no mention at all. (afaict).

http://sv.wikipedia.org - a note that the Swedish wikipedia is unaffected :-)

Add to your list at least... - Boing Boing - Imgur - Google - MoveOn - Mozilla - Reddit - WordPress - Craigslist - ArsTechnica - The Verge - OReilly - Wired - TechCrunch - XKCD - Fark and on and on.. around 7000 or 8000 websites joined in.

Given the number of different peoples and cultures we represent, we had no business taking part.

And I think that this is exactly why we needed to take a stand :-) You can say the same about all the sites that participated... they represent worldwide audiences... and they stood up and said "no" to something that potentially affected every single internet user worldwide. This was not about something that affected one group - "we" don't protest GEMA in Germany because their stupidity has zero effect on people outside of Germany... "we" don't protest BREIN in the Netherlands because their stupidity affects only the Dutch... but SOPA.. that had the potential of a global effect. Anyway... those that are offended by the board's actions will never see the other side.. and those who support the actions (like me) will never think it was a bad idea.... so... :-P we will go in circles here for weeks. I'll get off my soapbox now :-) C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On Thu, Jan 19, 2012 at 10:46, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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And I think that this is exactly why we needed to take a stand :-)

Who is "we"? The board? The board is not "we", I don't feel represented. I may agree with the action, but I was not asked.

I wasn't directly asked either... the events that lead up to the decision were detailed earlier in this thread. See http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2012-01/msg00098.html C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On Thu, Jan 19, 2012 at 12:22, DenverD wrote:

On 01/19/2012 10:50 AM, C wrote:

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On Thu, Jan 19, 2012 at 10:46, Carlos E. R.  wrote:

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And I think that this is exactly why we needed to take a stand :-)

Who is "we"? The board? The board is not "we", I don't feel represented. I may agree with the action, but I was not asked.

I wasn't directly asked either... the events that lead up to the decision were detailed earlier in this thread.  See http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2012-01/msg00098.html

i don't remember, was that Board Meeting on IRC held at a pre-announced time?

The board is on IRC a lot... and holds meetings there regularly: http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Board_meeting (just pointing at the resource, not making any statements about planned meeting times, topics, or decisions etc... I'm not on the board... I wasn't there for the IRC discussion in question... I'm just someone who used Google to dig up a starting point for the information you asked for) C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-01-20 15:29, Henne Vogelsang wrote:

You where. You get to vote for the members of the board. Why would we have a board if it has to ask you (e.g. all Members) every time they want to do something.

For something as a strike, yes. It is the law where I live. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk8ZfggACgkQtTMYHG2NR9WYWgCfVblf5GqbfGaKRsWgP5X3vH4+ cRMAn1cxn+cTklAlZczC2xc3bKIePSKL =N2p2 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On 21/01/12 01:45, Carlos E. R. wrote:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

On 2012-01-20 15:29, Henne Vogelsang wrote:

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You where. You get to vote for the members of the board. Why would we have a board if it has to ask you (e.g. all Members) every time they want to do something. For something as a strike, yes. It is the law where I live.

Maybe so, Carlos, but it is not a 'law' which governs the actions of the Board. And the "members of the community" are not members of a Trade Union because openSUSE is not a Trade Union. BC -- No one new to power has ever disarmed his subjects; on the contrary, finding them disarmed new rulers have always armed them. Niccolo Machiavelli -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

C wrote:

Anyway... those that are offended by the board's actions will never see the other side.. and those who support the actions (like me) will never think it was a bad idea.... so... :-P we will go in circles here for weeks.

What's done is done, it can't be changed and it's not interesting any more. For the future however, I think we ought to amend the guiding principles to unequivocally state that openSUSE does not engage in or endorse any kind of policical activism. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (5.5°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Matt Barringer wrote:

On Fri, 20 Jan 2012, Per Jessen wrote:

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What's done is done, it can't be changed and it's not interesting any more. For the future however, I think we ought to amend the guiding principles to unequivocally state that openSUSE does not engage in or endorse any kind of policical activism.

So in your opinion, openSUSE should never, as a project, express an opinion about government use of open-source software, copyright issues, or patent law?

I think that is the best option, yes. I would really prefer to "leave the door open" for topics like those you've mentioned, but it has a great potential for too much discussion and unnecessary palaver, so instead I propose that we just say no.

All three of those things fall under "political activism", and all three of those things are perfectly appropriate political activism for an open-source project to engage in.

Agree. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (5.3°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

C wrote:

On Fri, Jan 20, 2012 at 13:40, Per Jessen wrote:

...

...

Anyway... those that are offended by the board's actions will never see the other side.. and those who support the actions (like me) will never think it was a bad idea.... so... :-P  we will go in circles here for weeks.

What's done is done, it can't be changed and it's not interesting any more.  For the future however, I think we ought to amend the guiding principles to unequivocally state that openSUSE does not engage in or endorse any kind of policical activism.

But.. DenverD isn't done trolling here :-P

Requesting such an amendment to the guiding principles will be an "interesting" and endless debate with no clear answer... open source is in itself a political statement.... and ties into copyrights, patents and so many other things. personally I think such a demand is doomed to failure.. not to say that a proposal should not be tendered, but... it'll be a long drawn out endless and futile argument.

As futile as our previous lengthy debates on strategy etc. perhaps. :-( At least the issue of political activism is straight forward - if we say no, end of debate. If we say yes, no end of debate. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (5.4°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Am 20.01.2012 14:16, schrieb Basil Chupin:

Just on this matter of SOPA. This proposed law in USA has not even been properly debated in their Houses let alone enacted and yet the founder of Megadownloads was arrested *in* *New* *Zealand* as a result of SOPA as far as I can ascertain.

No. They did *not* need SOPA to arrest Kimble since he is a well known criminal, betraying people since over 10 years. Current law was absolutely good enough to get him. That's actually a proof that SOPA is not necessary. -- Stefan Seyfried "Dispatch war rocket Ajax to bring back his body!" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On 21/01/12 08:50, Stefan Seyfried wrote:

Am 20.01.2012 14:16, schrieb Basil Chupin:

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Just on this matter of SOPA. This proposed law in USA has not even been properly debated in their Houses let alone enacted and yet the founder of Megadownloads was arrested *in* *New* *Zealand* as a result of SOPA as far as I can ascertain.

No. They did *not* need SOPA to arrest Kimble since he is a well known criminal, betraying people since over 10 years. Current law was absolutely good enough to get him. That's actually a proof that SOPA is not necessary.

Just a follow-up to what I stated earlier re your comment above. I queried re above a friend who has close political ties to what is going on in USofA and he tells me that the action was taken in anticipation of the SOPA/PIPA being enacted and jumped the gun by starting proceedings a month ago - meaning that what happened to Megauploads *was* directly as a result of SOPA/PIPA as there is no current legislation in force to do what was done. BC -- No one new to power has ever disarmed his subjects; on the contrary, finding them disarmed new rulers have always armed them. Niccolo Machiavelli -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Lars Müller wrote:

On Fri, Jan 20, 2012 at 01:40:27PM +0100, Per Jessen wrote:

...

C wrote:

...

Anyway... those that are offended by the board's actions will never see the other side.. and those who support the actions (like me) will never think it was a bad idea.... so... :-P we will go in circles here for weeks.

What's done is done, it can't be changed and it's not interesting any more. For the future however, I think we ought to amend the guiding principles to unequivocally state that openSUSE does not engage in or endorse any kind of policical activism.

This statement doesn't hit the nail.

It's difficult to get it right, which is why I think it's better to be very black and white.

I agress that the openSUSE board should not make any general political statement. For example it's not the primarily issue of the openSUSE project to discuss if atomic power plants are the right or wrong way to go.

With PIPA and SOPA it's different. These changes even if (first) installed and forced in the USA sooner or later even might hit us. Not only as part of our infrastructure is operated there.

With Samba we joined the protest too. But we made it quite simple and let all known links lead to the same result as before. Only the starting page got redirected.

As Per said the way the German wikipedia page handled it looks like a better approach.

I can't remember if I said that, but I agree :-) -- Per Jessen, Zürich (5.5°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

* Jim Henderson [2012-01-18 20:07]:

On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 18:47:53 +0100, Guido Berhoerster wrote:

...

So when is www.opensuse.org going to protest against Chinese internet censorship? Your argument applies there just as well (and probably in numerous other cases).

Do we have a large number of contributors from China currently participating in the project? Do we have a large installed userbase in China?

Certainly the "Great Firewall of China" needs to be dealt with, but there is a significant difference between the US and China.

The US is supposedly a "free" country. But due process and other core principles of US freedoms are under attack by laws like SOPA, DMCA, PIPA, etc. And those changes in US law have implications outside the US.

It's curious that you would equate the two situations - because they're very, *very* different. They're only similar in that they're about censorship by the government. But the historical backgrounds of the two countries are very, very different.

That doesn't mean what happens in China is right. It isn't.

I was trying to point out that the reasoning behind taking part in this protest promoting a certain politica agenda (no matter how well intended) is rather arbitrary and the said slippery slope. And I'm rather surprised the board is even entitled to make decisions about such matters which are at best peripherally related to openSUSE on behalf of the project. -- Guido Berhoerster -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On 01/18/2012 10:15 PM, DenverD wrote:

On 01/18/2012 08:52 PM, Guido Berhoerster wrote:

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* Jim Henderson [2012-01-18 20:07]:

...

On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 18:47:53 +0100, Guido Berhoerster wrote:

...

So when is www.opensuse.org going to protest against Chinese internet censorship? Your argument applies there just as well (and probably in numerous other cases).

Do we have a large number of contributors from China currently participating in the project? Do we have a large installed userbase in China?

Certainly the "Great Firewall of China" needs to be dealt with, but there is a significant difference between the US and China.

The US is supposedly a "free" country. But due process and other core principles of US freedoms are under attack by laws like SOPA, DMCA, PIPA, etc. And those changes in US law have implications outside the US.

It's curious that you would equate the two situations - because they're very, *very* different. They're only similar in that they're about censorship by the government. But the historical backgrounds of the two countries are very, very different.

That doesn't mean what happens in China is right. It isn't.

I was trying to point out that the reasoning behind taking part in this protest promoting a certain politica agenda (no matter how well intended) is rather arbitrary and the said slippery slope. And I'm rather surprised the board is even entitled to make decisions about such matters which are at best peripherally related to openSUSE on behalf of the project.

i agree and suggest the board grossly overstepped their authority and their irresponsible behavior should be dealt with in some appropriate fashion...their removal would not be any more radical than their decision to jump into USA politics..

btw i am very anti-SOPA/PIPA but that is a private individual matter between me (as a citizen) and my government....this Community and its Board has _no_ standing in this matter whatsoever...in fact it is almost as childish to go black for a day as it is for the US government to think it can control the net in the first place...they do not have a clue.

I think it was even more childish to create an open source project and waste time of hundreds of developers to create free and open source projects. Right? By the way I don't think MPAA's desire to control the Internet are childish. This word doesn't fit in this context. openSUSE board has made a very commendable decision and we thank them for taking a stand. Swapnil -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Wednesday, 2012-01-18 at 22:15 +0100, DenverD wrote:

On 01/18/2012 08:52 PM, Guido Berhoerster wrote:

...

I was trying to point out that the reasoning behind taking part in this protest promoting a certain politica agenda (no matter how well intended) is rather arbitrary and the said slippery slope. And I'm rather surprised the board is even entitled to make decisions about such matters which are at best peripherally related to openSUSE on behalf of the project.

i agree and suggest the board grossly overstepped their authority and their irresponsible behavior should be dealt with in some appropriate fashion...their removal would not be any more radical than their decision to jump into USA politics..

btw i am very anti-SOPA/PIPA but that is a private individual matter between me (as a citizen) and my government....this Community and its Board has _no_ standing in this matter whatsoever...in fact it is almost as childish to go black for a day as it is for the US government to think it can control the net in the first place...they do not have a clue.

I agree, too. I may agree with the decission, but not in the form. The board can not decide for all in something so important as taking a political stance. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAk8XVgIACgkQtTMYHG2NR9Vk0wCeLq+HSd2RWaUHQaqMBKgCCcTu 3wsAnRSibf+9/fsJYmY+zptQkzUrn+BS =0AZG -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On 19.01.2012 10:02, Per Jessen wrote:

What we need to know now is - where do one go to make a motion of no confidence? Well, perhaps a bit strong, but it does seem that a few people feel that the board has overstepped its mandate in this case. I certainly don't see "political activism" listed under "Governance":

http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Guiding_principles

Perhaps we can look a bit beyond the SOPA issue, and discuss whether the openSUSE project should be actively engaging itself in political matters (of any kind)? My opinion is quite clear - if we as individuals want to help further a political agenda, there are other and better ways of doing it. If however we want to help build the openSUSE Linux distribution, this is what the openSUSE project does - and nothing else.

Well, I bet with you that the same people, who are now complaining that the board made this decision would also complain about it, if the board didn't start the protest. On the other hand, a poll before start the protest would be the better way, so next time they should do that. *But* sometimes right people have to the right things when the time's right ;-) -- Kim Leyendecker, openSUSE Wiki Team GPG Key: 664265369547B825 | leyendecker@opensuse.org http://www.opensuse.org - Linux for open minds -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On 19.01.2012 21:51, Ricardo Chung wrote:

We are not politicians just citizen of the world defending our freedom and spaces.

Very well said! :-) -- Kim Leyendecker, openSUSE Wiki Team GPG Key: 664265369547B825 | leyendecker@opensuse.org http://www.opensuse.org - Linux for open minds -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On 20.01.2012 00:43, Carlos E. R. wrote:

On 2012-01-19 21:51, Ricardo Chung wrote:

...

...

On the other hand, a poll before start the protest would be the better

...

way, so next time they should do that.

Please, don't do that. It takes too much time to collect opinions on surveys and much more organize collected data. Moreover, it was a critical decission less than 24 hours before strike starting. Can you figure asking to the whole community if they agree or disagree to go into strike?

Oh yes, I do. A strike from top down is not representative. The proponents of the SOPA can truly argue that our strike does not represent the majority, that it was decided by the management only.

You're completely off the point - even the US senators do not judge their votes based on openSUSE decisions. But they do based on the voices of those that vote for them, and this is what the blackout called for: for people to let their voices hear, so their representatives can hear it. And whoever will claim now, that openSUSE has nothing to do with US politics, didn't call whois opensuse.org (and yes, I know whois isn't in the default installation :) Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On 01/20/2012 10:30 AM, jdd wrote:

Le 20/01/2012 09:17, Stephan Kulow a écrit :

...

And whoever will claim now, that openSUSE has nothing to do with US politics, didn't call whois opensuse.org (and yes, I know whois isn't in the default installation :)

and the action against megaupload (justifyed or not, this is not the question here) shows that US politics/justice can have effects for the hole world

now that the openSUSE Board decided this internal USA political debate is one the community should take a clear stand on (and so many here fully support), what position will the Board take on joining this call to action in support of a free, uncensored and open internet: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=wpP2GgnD5bM will the Board support "internet freedom" for just a few hours of token approval while standing in the shadow of giants like Wikipedia, or will the Board actually commit to supporting an internet free of the USA government's meddlesome censorship? lets see your mettle now. dd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On Thu, Jan 19, 2012 at 3:35 PM, K. Dennis Leyendecker wrote:

On 19.01.2012 10:02, Per Jessen wrote:

...

What we need to know now is - where do one go to make a motion of no confidence?  Well, perhaps a bit strong, but it does seem that a few people feel that the board has overstepped its mandate in this case. I certainly don't see "political activism" listed under "Governance":

http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Guiding_principles

Perhaps we can look a bit beyond the SOPA issue, and discuss whether the openSUSE project should be actively engaging itself in political matters (of any kind)? My opinion is quite clear - if we as individuals want to help further a political agenda, there are other and better ways of doing it.  If however we want to help build the openSUSE Linux distribution, this is what the openSUSE project does - and nothing else.

Well, I bet with you that the same people, who are now complaining that the board made this decision would also complain about it, if the board didn't start the protest.

Kim, Per seems to be the most vocal against this action. I haven't met him in person, but from his interactions here he is not complaining just to be complaining. Instead I'm sure he reached his opinion after considering the issues. And not just to be contrary. If he had been on the board, I'm sure he would have argued against the blackout. Greg -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On Thursday, January 19, 2012 00:29:59 Carlos E. R. wrote:

On Wednesday, 2012-01-18 at 22:15 +0100, DenverD wrote:

...

On 01/18/2012 08:52 PM, Guido Berhoerster wrote:

...

I was trying to point out that the reasoning behind taking part in this protest promoting a certain politica agenda (no matter how well intended) is rather arbitrary and the said slippery slope. And I'm rather surprised the board is even entitled to make decisions about such matters which are at best peripherally related to openSUSE on behalf of the project.

i agree and suggest the board grossly overstepped their authority and their irresponsible behavior should be dealt with in some appropriate fashion...their removal would not be any more radical than their decision to jump into USA politics..

btw i am very anti-SOPA/PIPA but that is a private individual matter between me (as a citizen) and my government....this Community and its Board has _no_ standing in this matter whatsoever...in fact it is almost as childish to go black for a day as it is for the US government to think it can control the net in the first place...they do not have a clue.

I agree, too.

I may agree with the decission, but not in the form. The board can not decide for all in something so important as taking a political stance.

Ooh, get over it. And the same goes for Guido, Denver and Per, by the way. Blah Blah Blah. A significant proportion of our user- and contributor base could be cut off from our websites due to some ridiculous law in the USA. Half the web, including sites like Wikipedia, is going black. In a public IRC meeting the board takes the consensus on the channel and decides (on short notice, there was little time) to join the worldwide protest. They did what they should do - as board. And you all voted for them to make decisions like these, so get of their backs and into your cage. IF you have serious issues, send them to the board in private, don't bikeshed. Esp Denver - "irresponsible behavior of the board" - dude, take your happy pills. You guys are, as usual, shooting with a canon at a flee at 2 feet distance and honestly it is getting VERY tiring. Instead of bikeshedding, load http://bit.ly/xY4Mzs and be useful.

On Saturday, January 21, 2012 00:29:00 Basil Chupin wrote:

On 21/01/12 00:17, Jos Poortvliet wrote:

...

On Thursday, January 19, 2012 00:29:59 Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

On Wednesday, 2012-01-18 at 22:15 +0100, DenverD wrote:

...

On 01/18/2012 08:52 PM, Guido Berhoerster wrote:

...

I was trying to point out that the reasoning behind taking part in this protest promoting a certain politica agenda (no matter how well intended) is rather arbitrary and the said slippery slope. And I'm rather surprised the board is even entitled to make decisions about such matters which are at best peripherally related to openSUSE on behalf of the project.

i agree and suggest the board grossly overstepped their authority and their irresponsible behavior should be dealt with in some appropriate fashion...their removal would not be any more radical than their decision to jump into USA politics..

btw i am very anti-SOPA/PIPA but that is a private individual matter between me (as a citizen) and my government....this Community and its Board has _no_ standing in this matter whatsoever...in fact it is almost as childish to go black for a day as it is for the US government to think it can control the net in the first place...they do not have a clue.

I agree, too.

I may agree with the decission, but not in the form. The board can not decide for all in something so important as taking a political stance.

Ooh, get over it. And the same goes for Guido, Denver and Per, by the way. Blah Blah Blah.

A significant proportion of our user- and contributor base could be cut off from our websites due to some ridiculous law in the USA. Half the web, including sites like Wikipedia, is going black. In a public IRC meeting the board takes the consensus on the channel and decides (on short notice, there was little time) to join the worldwide protest. They did what they should do - as board. And you all voted for them to make decisions like these, so get of their backs and into your cage.

IF you have serious issues, send them to the board in private, don't bikeshed.

Esp Denver - "irresponsible behavior of the board" - dude, take your happy pills. You guys are, as usual, shooting with a canon at a flee at 2 feet distance and honestly it is getting VERY tiring.

Instead of bikeshedding, loadhttp://bit.ly/xY4Mzs and be useful.

You're overdoing the "bikeshed" crap.

And your language above does not fit in with your role as Community Manager.

BC

Oooh, I can't say bad words and call things by their name? Boehoe. It's my JOB to do that. Others might block silly treads like this one, or simply unsubscribe from the list. I'd rather unsubscribe those who start them and keep em going. If I could this list would just have lost 4-5 people causing 85% of its traffic. And be a place of zen and tranquility again. And you say this is not bikeshedding? let's see. 75 mails and counting, wel over 20 by Per alone. Nothing new in the last 65 of those. Have I used the term 'drama queens' yet? Let me apply that to this thread and those keeping it pointlessly going...

Jos Poortvliet wrote:

On Thursday, January 19, 2012 00:29:59 Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

On Wednesday, 2012-01-18 at 22:15 +0100, DenverD wrote:

...

On 01/18/2012 08:52 PM, Guido Berhoerster wrote:

...

I was trying to point out that the reasoning behind taking part in this protest promoting a certain politica agenda (no matter how well intended) is rather arbitrary and the said slippery slope. And I'm rather surprised the board is even entitled to make decisions about such matters which are at best peripherally related to openSUSE on behalf of the project.

i agree and suggest the board grossly overstepped their authority and their irresponsible behavior should be dealt with in some appropriate fashion...their removal would not be any more radical than their decision to jump into USA politics..

btw i am very anti-SOPA/PIPA but that is a private individual matter between me (as a citizen) and my government....this Community and its Board has _no_ standing in this matter whatsoever...in fact it is almost as childish to go black for a day as it is for the US government to think it can control the net in the first place...they do not have a clue.

I agree, too.

I may agree with the decission, but not in the form. The board can not decide for all in something so important as taking a political stance.

Ooh, get over it. And the same goes for Guido, Denver and Per, by the way. Blah Blah Blah.

Our eloquent "community manager" speaks. Bah. Jos, when you've got nothing useful to contribute, please don't bother. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (5.6°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On Fri, Jan 20, 2012 at 10:13 AM, Henne Vogelsang wrote:

Hey,

On 20.01.2012 15:22, Per Jessen wrote:

...

Our eloquent "community manager" speaks. Bah.  Jos, when you've got nothing useful to contribute, please don't bother.

Why are you still replying with the same argument over and over and over again then? :-)

You know that's why people get frustrated with you all the time right?

While I agree this thread has gone on beyond reason, in general I find Per's involvement with opensuse highly beneficial and I'm glad he's here. Greg -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

It's not Per's fault this thread has been hijacked ad infinitum distracting from two main points, namely the argument that opportunistic participation in political activism regarding issues at best peripherally related to this project is out of place and rather harmful and from questioning whether the boards mandate actually covers such decisions. This would be usually the point for list moderators to intervene and close this topic, unfortunately it was exactly them who brought this thread to a new low by starting ad-hominem attacks and name calling which reflecting rather poorly on them and the community and actually reinforces the above argument. Anyway, EOT for me. -- Guido Berhoerster -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-01-20 14:17, Jos Poortvliet wrote:

Ooh, get over it. And the same goes for Guido, Denver and Per, by the way. Blah Blah Blah.

A significant proportion of our user- and contributor base could be cut off from our websites due to some ridiculous law in the USA. Half the web, including sites like Wikipedia, is going black. In a public IRC meeting the board takes the consensus on the channel and decides (on short notice, there was little time) to join the worldwide protest. They did what they should do - as board. And you all voted for them to make decisions like these, so get of their backs and into your cage.

IF you have serious issues, send them to the board in private, don't bikeshed.

Esp Denver - "irresponsible behavior of the board" - dude, take your happy pills. You guys are, as usual, shooting with a canon at a flee at 2 feet distance and honestly it is getting VERY tiring.

Instead of bikeshedding, load http://bit.ly/xY4Mzs and be useful.

Your language is not appropriate for an openSUSE member, it is against our principles. I would immediately call for you to present excuses or step down from your post as community manager right now. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk8ZfdAACgkQtTMYHG2NR9XuiACfQJsWjblfXptxffBCeQ+8iy9T bv8AnjQNnYfZdyTuCQKh/Z4Er73mAMzX =P3cb -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On 21/01/12 02:05, Alin Marin Elena wrote:

...

Your language is not appropriate for an openSUSE member, it is against our principles. I would immediately call for you to present excuses or step down from your post as community manager right now. It is your right to have an opinion... and it is your right to express it... but please try not to be offensive or ridiculous.

Alin

Ce? What ARE you talking about?! Carlos, of all people, being " offensive or ridiculous"?! Did you use a <your-language>-English dictionary before writing the above? BC -- No one new to power has ever disarmed his subjects; on the contrary, finding them disarmed new rulers have always armed them. Niccolo Machiavelli -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On 21/01/12 02:47, Bryen M Yunashko wrote:

...

On Thursday, January 19, 2012 00:29:59 Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

On Wednesday, 2012-01-18 at 22:15 +0100, DenverD wrote:

...

...

I was trying to point out that the reasoning behind taking part in this protest promoting a certain politica agenda (no matter how well intended) is rather arbitrary and the said slippery slope. And I'm rather surprised the board is even entitled to make decisions about such matters which are at best peripherally related to openSUSE on behalf of the project. i agree and suggest the board grossly overstepped their authority and

On 01/18/2012 08:52 PM, Guido Berhoerster wrote: their irresponsible behavior should be dealt with in some appropriate fashion...their removal would not be any more radical than their decision to jump into USA politics..

btw i am very anti-SOPA/PIPA but that is a private individual matter between me (as a citizen) and my government....this Community and its Board has _no_ standing in this matter whatsoever...in fact it is almost as childish to go black for a day as it is for the US government to think it can control the net in the first place...they do not have a clue. I agree, too.

I may agree with the decission, but not in the form. The board can not decide for all in something so important as taking a political stance. Ooh, get over it. And the same goes for Guido, Denver and Per, by the way. Blah Blah Blah.

A significant proportion of our user- and contributor base could be cut off from our websites due to some ridiculous law in the USA. Half the web, including sites like Wikipedia, is going black. In a public IRC meeting the board takes the consensus on the channel and decides (on short notice, there was little time) to join the worldwide protest. They did what they should do - as board. And you all voted for them to make decisions like these, so get of their backs and into your cage.

IF you have serious issues, send them to the board in private, don't bikeshed.

Esp Denver - "irresponsible behavior of the board" - dude, take your happy pills. You guys are, as usual, shooting with a canon at a flee at 2 feet distance and honestly it is getting VERY tiring.

Instead of bikeshedding, load http://bit.ly/xY4Mzs and be useful. Ahh, but Jos, what they're doing is actually productive. See, it's called reverse psychology. The supposed-detractors actually want the rest of us to be more firmly in support of the board action to strike. If you notice, any time a good strong and valid point is made on this

On Fri, 2012-01-20 at 14:17 +0100, Jos Poortvliet wrote: thread in favor of the strike, these same people increase their rhetoric. It can only be assumed therefore that reverse psychology is in play and that they're purposely playing the role of a SOPA proponent by highlighting how weak and senseless the proponents claims have been.

It's a job well done, and I congratulate Per especially for this ingenious ploy. He has a greater handle on how to solidify the community than I could have ever imagined. I'm amazed and appreciative at the same time.

Your ulterior motive is resolved and we can all go back to work now. Thanks guys!

Bryen M Yunashko

An attempt at sarcasm, and poor humour, which is not worthy of you Bryen. BC -- No one new to power has ever disarmed his subjects; on the contrary, finding them disarmed new rulers have always armed them. Niccolo Machiavelli -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On Thu, Jan 19, 2012 at 3:22 PM, K. Dennis Leyendecker wrote:

[1] http://blog.jospoortvliet.com/2011/09/bikeshedding-and-cls.html

Thanks for the link. I've wondered about the term and had no idea where it came from. And, yes, I was too lazy to google it. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 20:52:53 +0100, Guido Berhoerster wrote:

I was trying to point out that the reasoning behind taking part in this protest promoting a certain politica agenda (no matter how well intended) is rather arbitrary and the said slippery slope.

There's a question of degree of impact. I don't think it's very arbitrary and I think the 'slippery slope' argument gets a little tired, though I'm certainly one who uses it when it seems appropriate to me. If such a law were passed in, say, Guatemala (not that there is, I'm just picking up a small country that isn't 'front and center' on the world stage - to my knowledge - in this regard at the moment), it would be concerning (as it would be anywhere), but the degree of impact to the openSUSE project if it passed there would be relatively small. To ignore the relative impact and employ the 'slippery slope' argument along with absolutist "all or nothing" language misses the broader point. Things that impact the viability of the project *are* important to us all. And the board (at least in my view) is responsible for helping ensure the long-term viability of the project. I have an expectation that their focus is on that, and when they see something that's a threat to the project, I see it as one of their responsibilities to act on behalf of the project. That's not to say that I think they handled it perfectly. But that's the nature of things - you're not always going to have a perfect implementation, and you're not always going to have all the people involved in discussing/implementing that perhaps you'd like to have seen involved. Hindsight is always 20/20 and all that.

And I'm rather surprised the board is even entitled to make decisions about such matters which are at best peripherally related to openSUSE on behalf of the project.

For my own part, I'm glad they did. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On Wed, 2012-01-18 at 17:04 +0000, Jim Henderson wrote:

On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 09:25:00 -0500, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

* Joop Boonen [01-18-12 04:03]:

...

On Wed, January 18, 2012 9:51 am, Per Jessen wrote:

...

Just my opinion - I think openSUSE should stay far away from politics of any kind.

I don't think this is politics, this is about our internet freedom.

I agree that openSUSE supports the SOPA blackout.

+1

Same here.

One thing to consider is the potential impact of a law like PIPA or SOPA (the latter of which is apparently dead for the time being) on those outside the US.

openSUSE and open source is about freedom. As has been pointed out already, the nature of OSS projects is political.

How would we like it if the US government decided to shut down the openSUSE wiki because we link to the Packman repository, which contains code that violates DMCA?

The slippery slope here isn't participation in the blackout. The slippery slope is a large, technologically literate population losing the freedom to participate in an OSS project because they can't access it - and have no recourse to resolve it. No trial, no jury.

The slippery slope is the US government then pushing other companies to adopt SOPA-like legislation or face trade restrictions. Don't think that'll happen? Look at some of the leaked stuff about US efforts to get SOPA-like legislation passed in Spain. I also seem to remember something about a similar law in Canada.

Jim

1+ For the EU they're already planning ACTA witch is pretty much the european counterpart to SOPA. There was an interesting talk at 28C3 [1] at that topic, the europeans among us should watch it. Marcel [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upz34kUWysk