Re: Tumbleweed snapshot 20201218 - installing sof firmware fails
Axel Braun wrote:
Hello Simon
Am Mittwoch, 23. Dezember 2020, 22:30:59 CET schrieb Simon Lees:
On 12/22/20 8:50 PM, Axel Braun wrote:
....
This will have to be handled in the package itself.
Shall I open a bug report for this?
Opening a bug would have been preferable to posting to this list.
I disagree. I was stuck during update and needed an advice quickly. Ismail responded within 6 minutes, and solved my problem.
Speed of resolution is not really a good argument. One of the reasons the support list was created (a Board initiative btw) was to move support questions away from the factory list. I personally doubt if it has worked, and you also seem to prefer seeking support on the factory list?
This is a brilliant example that TW users do get help on factory@ (answers to this to the respective thread on project@, please)
Done :-) (well, a new thread, sorry)
At the same time its a heads-up for other TW users that issues might arise (another TW machine of mine did not have the problem).
I think the idea is good, but because TW is a main openSUSE distro, I would not expect the majority of TW users to be hanging out on the factory list.
Bugzilla is simply not responsive enough in these emergency cases.
I'm sure we can all agree on that, but does that make it alright to go off-topic on the factory list which is specifically not for support? -- Per Jessen, Zürich (-0.6°C) Just another openSUSE user in favour of merging the support list back into the users list.
Am 25.12.20 um 21:05 schrieb Per Jessen:
Speed of resolution is not really a good argument.
In case of a package update going wrong it is as this might result from a broken snapshot and therefore affect other TW users who then refrain from running the defective update.
One of the reasons the support list was created (a Board initiative btw) was to move support questions away from the factory list. I personally doubt if it has worked, and you also seem to prefer seeking support on the factory list?
This leads to the question for definition of a support questions. And looking at both factory@ and users@ I get a pretty clear picture: While on users@ the topics are very open and quite often not even openSUSE related, on factory@ most emails arise from: - a broken package/update - something missing in the repositories - snapshot update emails I that's pretty much okay. vinz.
On 12/26/20 10:57 AM, Vinzenz Vietzke wrote:
Am 25.12.20 um 21:05 schrieb Per Jessen:
Speed of resolution is not really a good argument.
In case of a package update going wrong it is as this might result from a broken snapshot and therefore affect other TW users who then refrain from running the defective update.
One of the reasons the support list was created (a Board initiative btw) was to move support questions away from the factory list. I personally doubt if it has worked, and you also seem to prefer seeking support on the factory list?
This leads to the question for definition of a support questions. And looking at both factory@ and users@ I get a pretty clear picture:
While on users@ the topics are very open and quite often not even openSUSE related, on factory@ most emails arise from: - a broken package/update - something missing in the repositories - snapshot update emails
I that's pretty much okay.
In theory yes, until you consider it this way, roughly we see maybe a few threads a month on genuine development discussions where as the other tumbleweed related emails at times have seen several threads a day. Now people who are mostly interested in Leap / SLE development (and even those who only care about a small subset of tumbleweed) really should be subscribed to the factory list because threads related to development discussion are going to impact them. However all the other threads you listed above don't really affect them, we got to the point where the vast majority of threads were in the later category which was really taking the list away from its intended purpose and was leading many people for whom only the former topic was relevant to consider unsubscribing. As a result the board decided to make the changes it did removing these emails from the factory list but keeping the snapshot email but modifying it to ask people not to reply but to create bug reports after all these emails are pretty easy to visually or programmatically filter out. At the time the board chose to see how the changes we made played out before creating further lists, at this point there seems to potentially be demand for a "Tumbleweed" specific list but whether there is demand for such a list if not everyone on the "development/factory" list are subscribed is probably worth figuring out. -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B
On 28.12.20 08:02, Simon Lees wrote:
As a result the board decided to make the changes it did removing these emails from the factory list but keeping the snapshot email but modifying it to ask people not to reply but to create bug reports after all these emails are pretty easy to visually or programmatically filter out.
...and there were people voicing their concerns back then that this was a less-than brilliant idea, but they were ignored. Face it: about as many people that threatened to unsubscribe from factory back then are goiung to unsubscribe now, if we can no longer get help for dire problems. Bug reports are basically useless for those "running into tumbleweed update problems" cases, because they do not get read, even less answered (I'm not even talking about fixed) in a reasonable time frame. Yes, we all should do something to stop the list from going (really) off-topic on a regular base, where everyone can do its share e.g. by just ignoring certain people, but declaring that almost everything that's discussed on the list is off-topic is not a solution IMVHO.
At the time the board chose to see how the changes we made played out before creating further lists, at this point there seems to potentially be demand for a "Tumbleweed" specific list but whether there is demand for such a list if not everyone on the "development/factory" list are subscribed is probably worth figuring out.
I don't think fragmenting the community with more lists is going to help. -- Stefan Seyfried "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled." -- Richard Feynman
Am 28.12.20 um 16:16 schrieb Stefan Seyfried:
Yes, we all should do something to stop the list from going (really) off-topic on a regular base, where everyone can do its share e.g. by just ignoring certain people, but declaring that almost everything that's discussed on the list is off-topic is not a solution IMVHO.
This.
At the time the board chose to see how the changes we made played out before creating further lists, at this point there seems to potentially be demand for a "Tumbleweed" specific list but whether there is demand for such a list if not everyone on the "development/factory" list are subscribed is probably worth figuring out.
I don't think fragmenting the community with more lists is going to help.
This, even more. The problem is not in the number of mailing lists but in a handful of threads going either drastically off-topic or having a very hostile tone. Or even both. Unless there are very specific topics, like e.g. Xfce or Translations, I'd strongly refrain from going back and forth every few years with the number of mailing lists. This does not solve any of the mentioned problems. vinz.
On 12/29/20 2:20 AM, Vinzenz Vietzke wrote:
Am 28.12.20 um 16:16 schrieb Stefan Seyfried:
Yes, we all should do something to stop the list from going (really) off-topic on a regular base, where everyone can do its share e.g. by just ignoring certain people, but declaring that almost everything that's discussed on the list is off-topic is not a solution IMVHO.
With respect to the factory list, this wasn't the specific issue we were trying to address (unlike other lists), it was the number of new posts being created, everyone believes the issue affecting them is a major issue. The number of these posts we get now is significantly less then what it was 3 years back when we started cracking down on it.
At the time the board chose to see how the changes we made played out before creating further lists, at this point there seems to potentially be demand for a "Tumbleweed" specific list but whether there is demand for such a list if not everyone on the "development/factory" list are subscribed is probably worth figuring out.
I don't think fragmenting the community with more lists is going to help.
This, even more.
The problem is not in the number of mailing lists but in a handful of threads going either drastically off-topic or having a very hostile tone. Or even both.
Again this is a problem now but was not the main problem that lead to the change in the factory list.
Unless there are very specific topics, like e.g. Xfce or Translations, I'd strongly refrain from going back and forth every few years with the number of mailing lists. This does not solve any of the mentioned problems.
I'd argue that here we do have 2 very specific topics that have some overlap in interested parties. The first is "Development of openSUSE based distro's", Whether it be Tumbleweed, Leap, Micro OS or SLE, See threads like "Multi-spec packages only need a single changes file now" or "Python 3 parallel install". The other is to alert tumbleweed users to potential issues they may face during an update etc. Currently as a project we strongly recommend that anyone doing any development on Tumbleweed / Leap / SLE etc is subscribed to the factory list and expect that they are up to date with any changes that are posted. The factory list should be treated as openSUSE's "Development" list its just because factory has always meant development in openSUSE a number of people didn't want to change the lists name. Out of respect for all the people who need to be subscribed to this lists time we should be keeping discussions on the factory list to development discussions and announcements etc. A previous board made the decision that we didn't need a place to discuss tumbleweed related issues at least initially but it seems clear that some people would like such a place for this discussion to exist and I agree that, that is reasonable. But the primary development list of the community is not a good place for that discussion as it leads to developers needing to filter out 90% of emails that aren't important to them to find the 5-10% that are. Which makes the solution either a different list or no list, (or no longer expect developers to be subscribed to the development list, which a previous board put down as unacceptable.) -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B
On 12/29/20 1:46 AM, Stefan Seyfried wrote:
On 28.12.20 08:02, Simon Lees wrote:
As a result the board decided to make the changes it did removing these emails from the factory list but keeping the snapshot email but modifying it to ask people not to reply but to create bug reports after all these emails are pretty easy to visually or programmatically filter out.
...and there were people voicing their concerns back then that this was a less-than brilliant idea, but they were ignored.
Face it: about as many people that threatened to unsubscribe from factory back then are goiung to unsubscribe now, if we can no longer get help for dire problems.
The board at the time decided to make the changes it did, see how they ran and then review them if needed, I'm suggesting once we have a new board it will be a decent time to review this. -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B
Hello Per, Am Freitag, 25. Dezember 2020, 21:05:22 CET schrieb Per Jessen:
Speed of resolution is not really a good argument.
As Vinz had written in his answer, speed matters, esp. in case of a broken update. [...]
At the same time its a heads-up for other TW users that issues might arise (another TW machine of mine did not have the problem).
I think the idea is good, but because TW is a main openSUSE distro, I would not expect the majority of TW users to be hanging out on the factory list.
Why not? I was digging in some number from October. Factory had 1357 subscribers, users 1223 and support 212. So I *guess* many developers and users are subscribed to factory, as it is the primary source for TW discussions and issues as described in Vinz' mail (Well, not only probably). If it is not TW related (like the broken update) I *personally* prefer support@ for questions. Not a lot of subscribers compared to users or factory, but responsive and helpful. As we are getting away from the 'sof firmware issue' here I would like to close the discussion Thanks and have a good xmas! Axel
Axel Braun wrote:
Hello Per,
Am Freitag, 25. Dezember 2020, 21:05:22 CET schrieb Per Jessen:
Speed of resolution is not really a good argument.
As Vinz had written in his answer, speed matters, esp. in case of a broken update.
[...]
At the same time its a heads-up for other TW users that issues might arise (another TW machine of mine did not have the problem).
I think the idea is good, but because TW is a main openSUSE distro, I would not expect the majority of TW users to be hanging out on the factory list.
Why not?
Quite simply because the majority of the TW users are not developers nor packagers. We are promoting TW as a key openSUSE distro - Fast! Integrated! Stabilized! Tested! - why should anyone wanting those features want to subscribe to a developers & packagers list ??
I was digging in some number from October. Factory had 1357 subscribers, users 1223 and support 212.
So I *guess* many developers and users are subscribed to factory, as it is the primary source for TW discussions and issues as described in Vinz' mail (Well, not only probably).
Axel, your guess is as good as mine, just different. I see no reason for a plain TW user to want to partake in any TW discussions. Why would she?
If it is not TW related (like the broken update) I *personally* prefer support@ for questions. Not a lot of subscribers compared to users or factory, but responsive and helpful.
In principle that is certainly up to you, although the openSUSE Board had other ideas in mind.
As we are getting away from the 'sof firmware issue' here I would like to close the discussion
You suggested I move the discussion here, and now you want to close it? I would like not to. I think there are some open questions still. I asked a question earlier -
Bugzilla is simply not responsive enough in these emergency cases.
I'm sure we can all agree on that, but does that make it alright to go off-topic on the factory list which is specifically not for support?
-- Per Jessen, Zürich (3.1°C) Member, openSUSE Heroes, in favour of merging 'support' into 'users'.
Hallo Per, Am Dienstag, 29. Dezember 2020, 21:45:24 CET schrieb Per Jessen:
Axel Braun wrote:
Hello Per,
Am Freitag, 25. Dezember 2020, 21:05:22 CET schrieb Per Jessen:
Speed of resolution is not really a good argument.
As Vinz had written in his answer, speed matters, esp. in case of a broken update.
[...]
At the same time its a heads-up for other TW users that issues might arise (another TW machine of mine did not have the problem).
I think the idea is good, but because TW is a main openSUSE distro, I would not expect the majority of TW users to be hanging out on the factory list.
Why not?
Quite simply because the majority of the TW users are not developers nor packagers. We are promoting TW as a key openSUSE distro - Fast! Integrated! Stabilized! Tested! - why should anyone wanting those features want to subscribe to a developers & packagers list ??
Ask the ones who subscribed. Maybe getting the heads-up on issues is one of the reaons. Or learning about new development & features. I admit that many discussions are deeeeep in development (means: beyond my skill-level), but those I can ignore.
I was digging in some number from October. Factory had 1357 subscribers, users 1223 and support 212.
So I *guess* many developers and users are subscribed to factory, as it is the primary source for TW discussions and issues as described in Vinz' mail (Well, not only probably).
Axel, your guess is as good as mine, just different. I see no reason for a plain TW user to want to partake in any TW discussions. Why would she?
Same as above. I cant judge the motivation of people subscribing to a list, I could talk only about my motivations. I subscribed in June 2016 to factory, based o a recommendation by a commuity member, after moving to TW.
If it is not TW related (like the broken update) I *personally* prefer support@ for questions. Not a lot of subscribers compared to users or factory, but responsive and helpful.
In principle that is certainly up to you, although the openSUSE Board had other ideas in mind.
I cant comment on the board ideas at that time...
As we are getting away from the 'sof firmware issue' here I would like to close the discussion
You suggested I move the discussion here, and now you want to close it? I would like not to. I think there are some open questions still.
I asked a question earlier -
Just noticed that KMail sorted this mail under the same tree as the original mail on factory. Did not notice that we are in project@ now...hence the attempt to close this *in factory* Sorry if that caused misunderstandings.... Happy new year! Axel
On 30/12/2020 16.36, Axel Braun wrote:
Hallo Per,
Am Dienstag, 29. Dezember 2020, 21:45:24 CET schrieb Per Jessen:
Axel Braun wrote:
Hello Per,
Am Freitag, 25. Dezember 2020, 21:05:22 CET schrieb Per Jessen:
Speed of resolution is not really a good argument.
As Vinz had written in his answer, speed matters, esp. in case of a broken update.
[...]
At the same time its a heads-up for other TW users that issues might arise (another TW machine of mine did not have the problem).
I think the idea is good, but because TW is a main openSUSE distro, I would not expect the majority of TW users to be hanging out on the factory list.
Why not?
Quite simply because the majority of the TW users are not developers nor packagers. We are promoting TW as a key openSUSE distro - Fast! Integrated! Stabilized! Tested! - why should anyone wanting those features want to subscribe to a developers & packagers list ??
Ask the ones who subscribed. Maybe getting the heads-up on issues is one of the reaons. Or learning about new development & features. I admit that many discussions are deeeeep in development (means: beyond my skill-level), but those I can ignore.
Same here.
As we are getting away from the 'sof firmware issue' here I would like to close the discussion
You suggested I move the discussion here, and now you want to close it? I would like not to. I think there are some open questions still.
I asked a question earlier -
Just noticed that KMail sorted this mail under the same tree as the original mail on factory. Did not notice that we are in project@ now...hence the attempt to close this *in factory*
Sorry if that caused misunderstandings....
That's what happens removing the subject [tag] ;-) I'd suggest you configure kmail to display both origin and destination addresses of mails. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)
participants (6)
-
Axel Braun -
Carlos E. R. -
Per Jessen -
Simon Lees -
Stefan Seyfried -
Vinzenz Vietzke