Fwd: Re: [opensuse-project] Can we support for-profit organizations to make money? (Was: Ubuntu One Music Store)
-------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [opensuse-project] Can we support for-profit organizations to make money? (Was: Ubuntu One Music Store) Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2010 20:44:34 +1100 From: Basil Chupin <blchupin@iinet.net.au> To: opensuse-project@opensuse.org On 01/03/10 19:36, Wolfgang Rosenauer wrote:
On 03/01/2010 09:16 AM, Basil Chupin wrote:
In which country is openSUSE registered as a not-for-profit organisation?
AFAIK work on this is on its way. The board is evaluating the options.
"Work on this is on its way"? Surely all this would have been done years ago? Are you suggesting that the opensuse.org thing....falls short of legal requirements (in any country) to be termed a not-for-profit organisation (ie, .org)?
Probably? I cannot answer legal questions but not everything needs to be an official organisation, does it?
Perhaps you may not know the answer to this but someone in the Novell legal department sure knows the answer, rest assured.
In any case, what is the legal basis (in whatever country) for having this "board"?
The bottom line is: if someone were to sue openSUSE for whatever reason, who would they be suing in a court of law? Novell or some nebulus entity called "the board" created by.....[aha, the "community", right!]?
I don't see opensuse.org as an institution which can be sued right now because it's lacking a legal status but again IANAL.
The unfortunate part of all this is that I have not yet come across anyone (except one person in private messages) who has bothered to question the whole setup and has come to then ask: who *CAN *be sued if someone wants to sue openSUSE.org or "the Board"? I have asked, in another opensuse mail list I think but I cannot remember, who is actually in charge of opensuse, who administers it, who is responsible for decisions about it - but did not get an answer except for the usual gooblydook, and which I decided not to pursue further. People are continuing to mime the words, "It's a community project". WHAT community? WHAT is the legal entity which represents this "community"?
Quite apart from the fact that all board members - except, perhaps, one - are employees of Novell, there is also the statement that the chairperson of the "board" is always appointed by Novell.
The current board http://en.opensuse.org/Board has three Novell employees and three non-Novell members. Not sure where you got other information.
From what Henne provided in his response-
http://en.opensuse.org/Guiding_Principles
which contains the link to-
As this is the same site I got the other information from I'm wondering what you were looking at because what you say is simply wrong.
I don't think so. Examine the list of Board members listed there as Board members. Did you not see the specific reference that Novell appoints the chairperson of that board - or am I also mistaken about that? BTW, I am not arguing with, or contradicting, you, or anyone else who may be responding to this thread. I am simply pointing out what I think are relevant matters about the ownership of openSUSE, which many people appear not to accept and then argue that Novell does not own openSUSE but that some mythical "community" actually owns openSUSE. People in the "community" *CONTRIBUTE* to the development of openSUSE - which is then used as input into SUSE ENTERPRISE - but openSUSE, and SUSE Enterprise, is owned by Novell and is responsible for it. (Have you looked at which site you go to when you want to make a bug report - a 'bugzilla' - about openSUSE? Well...lookee here.... https://bugzilla.novell.com/ICSLogin/?%22https://bugzilla.novell.com/ichainl... . 'Nuff said.) BC -- She was only a whisky maker but I loved her still. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Hi, On 03/01/2010 12:30 PM, Basil Chupin wrote:
The bottom line is: if someone were to sue openSUSE for whatever reason, who would they be suing in a court of law? Novell or some nebulus entity called "the board" created by.....[aha, the "community", right!]?
I don't see opensuse.org as an institution which can be sued right now because it's lacking a legal status but again IANAL.
The unfortunate part of all this is that I have not yet come across anyone (except one person in private messages) who has bothered to question the whole setup and has come to then ask: who *CAN *be sued if someone wants to sue openSUSE.org or "the Board"?
Why do we have to care about people who don't know whom to sue? I really don't get it. Compare it with other open source projects. Quite some don't have a company behind or any other organization. Now what is the problem with that? The question is for _what_ do you need an organization? There are some reasons and that's why the board is now looking into becoming a real organization for that reasons. I don't think that they (or we) need an organization to get sued.
Examine the list of Board members listed there as Board members.
I did and that's why I said there are 3 Novell and 3 non-Novell people. Nothing more. You claimed other facts before.
Did you not see the specific reference that Novell appoints the chairperson of that board - or am I also mistaken about that?
No, that's right. And now what? If you compare the amount of work which gets into openSUSE you will most likely find that Novell is the biggest contributor and founder of the project. So I don't find it strange that Novell has more weight in the project as for example I do.
BTW, I am not arguing with, or contradicting, you, or anyone else who may be responding to this thread. I am simply pointing out what I think are relevant matters about the ownership of openSUSE, which many people appear not to accept and then argue that Novell does not own openSUSE but that some mythical "community" actually owns openSUSE.
Feel free to "fork" openSUSE give it a different name and be happy? Apparently most of us don't feel enough pain of Novell's presence in the project to do that. Do you?
People in the "community" *CONTRIBUTE* to the development of openSUSE - which is then used as input into SUSE ENTERPRISE - but openSUSE, and SUSE Enterprise, is owned by Novell and is responsible for it.
The name openSUSE is owned by Novell. Yeah, that's true and might change at some point. Not sure.
(Have you looked at which site you go to when you want to make a bug report - a 'bugzilla' - about openSUSE?
Well...lookee here.... 'Nuff said.)
Yes, it shows that not enough people care enough to have that changed now. Go and create a bugzilla instance and get openSUSE contributors to use it. I still don't get it. Wolfgang -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On 01/03/10 22:53, Wolfgang Rosenauer wrote:
Hi,
On 03/01/2010 12:30 PM, Basil Chupin wrote:
The bottom line is: if someone were to sue openSUSE for whatever reason, who would they be suing in a court of law? Novell or some nebulus entity called "the board" created by.....[aha, the "community", right!]?
I don't see opensuse.org as an institution which can be sued right now because it's lacking a legal status but again IANAL.
The unfortunate part of all this is that I have not yet come across anyone (except one person in private messages) who has bothered to question the whole setup and has come to then ask: who *CAN *be sued if someone wants to sue openSUSE.org or "the Board"?
Why do we have to care about people who don't know whom to sue? I really don't get it.
Because there is a need for a legal entity which is responsible for the product the entity produces. (If you go out and tell people that you can fix their computers or install software for them and charge them for doing so, then when things go wrong a person who accepted your services has recourse to the law for damages if what you did damaged his/her equipment/system/data. Which is why there is a special insurance category covering this type of a service. Unless, of course, if you are..........."nudge, nudge, wink, wink, say no more".)
Compare it with other open source projects. Quite some don't have a company behind or any other organization. Now what is the problem with that?
I would be most grateful if you could tell me the names of these entities.
The question is for _what_ do you need an organization?
A good question. An organisation has to have an aim, a set of rules, to which it aspires. And there has to be some sort of a managerial structure which attempts to make the organisation attain those aims/goals.
There are some reasons and that's why the board is now looking into becoming a real organization for that reasons.
So, until now all it has been is "smoke and mirrors" but no real 'organisation", nor 'management' to manage this "organisation", right? The "board is now looking into becoming a real organization for that reasons [sic]". Novell bought S.U.S.E. in 2003. And it is now that that the "board" is "looking into becoming a real organization". Sounds most reasonable to me, 7 years on...........
I don't think that they (or we) need an organization to get sued.
Of course not. How can an non-existing "organisation" get sued? But Novell can, as a publicly listed company and subject to the Companies Act, or whatever it is called in the U.S.A. - and as the owner of openSUSE.
Examine the list of Board members listed there as Board members.
I did and that's why I said there are 3 Novell and 3 non-Novell people. Nothing more. You claimed other facts before.
I have read, and re-read the description of the board. So far the only member of the board - past or present - who is not listed as an employee or past employee of Novell is Pascal Bleser. A "stacked deck" wouldn't you say? But then, I may be reading things in a different version and in the English language....
Did you not see the specific reference that Novell appoints the chairperson of that board - or am I also mistaken about that?
No, that's right. And now what?
"And now what?"? 6 members of the board. 3 members are Novell members - and the chairman is appointed by Novell. Work it out :-) .
If you compare the amount of work which gets into openSUSE you will most likely find that Novell is the biggest contributor and founder of the project. So I don't find it strange that Novell has more weight in the project as for example I do.
What does this have to do with the overall argument? :-) If "you" all stopped denying that Novell has full control over openSUSE and stop trying to foist down the throats of people that openSUSE is a, so called, *COMMUNITY* owned and run piece of software then there would not be any hassles! :-)
BTW, I am not arguing with, or contradicting, you, or anyone else who may be responding to this thread. I am simply pointing out what I think are relevant matters about the ownership of openSUSE, which many people appear not to accept and then argue that Novell does not own openSUSE but that some mythical "community" actually owns openSUSE.
Feel free to "fork" openSUSE give it a different name and be happy? Apparently most of us don't feel enough pain of Novell's presence in the project to do that. Do you?
Oh gosh, the usual "Novell/openSuSE" inane argument :-) . Nobody wants to "fork" oS nor give it a different name. Nor is anyone denying that Novell owns openSUSE - EXCEPT those who....oh, I won't waste my time of this as I have already mentioned it.
People in the "community" *CONTRIBUTE* to the development of openSUSE - which is then used as input into SUSE ENTERPRISE - but openSUSE, and SUSE Enterprise, is owned by Novell and is responsible for it.
The name openSUSE is owned by Novell. Yeah, that's true and might change at some point. Not sure.
Thank you. "openSUSE is owned by Novell". Nice. "Yeah,....and might change at some point." I think that it may well change sooner than "some point" - but what do I know? [pruned]
I still don't get it.
Never mind. (I don't either. :-) ) BC -- A boiled egg is hard to beat. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Nobody wants to "fork" oS nor give it a different name. Nor is anyone denying that Novell owns openSUSE - EXCEPT those who....oh, I won't waste my time of this as I have already mentioned it.
Basil why are you doing this? Too much spare time on your hand? Others don't, so please stop binding resources here. Some of your objections are valid, the ways you present them are often not.
If "you" all stopped denying that Novell has full control over openSUSE and stop trying to foist down the throats of people that openSUSE is a, so called, COMMUNITY owned and run piece of software then there would not be any hassles! :-)
You are the only one in this list which is totally offended by the way openSUSE is run, I am offended by the way Canonical runs ubuntu but I don't troll on their lists telling them how much their system sucks. There are known failures in the current setup of the openSUSE community but you don't add anything of value here. So either you care about openSUSE then stop acting that way or you don't, then just leave. Karsten -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
participants (3)
-
Basil Chupin -
Karsten König -
Wolfgang Rosenauer