(I wrote a few mails about openSUSE. You are free to trash them or to "not read", but of course, I secretely ;-) hope not.)
So "is openSUSE a community without a community manager?"
is my first "key project question",
as Joss was hired for that a few years ago, did a lot of articles, marketing, noise for and around openSUSE, he "did the job" (2011 was a good marketing year, no?)
then Augustin was hired too did try to "reorganize openSUSE community with less success, he left ? we guess (even if he is still managing openSUSE group on linkedin)
then ??? no information on the project list ? no formal information (on what was decided)
And now ? Some of us have met Doug ... he was not introduced, wasn't he. as far as I heard, he was not hired as a community manager, did he ?
in fact, we (member/contributors ... non SUSE employees) don't know who is "responsible" for what ? (about "SUSE ppl working for openSUSE" - since the openSUSE booster team is no more ... ?)
is there a wiki page somewhere ? explaining who (from SUSE) is working for openSUSE distribution or collaborating to openSUSE project with openSUSE "non-SUSE contributors" ? who do what ?
Comment : it's a difficult mission (challenge?) to manage a community as openSUSE but it's very pretentious to believe that a community can grow and go over challenges without a "community manager"
(boosting, listening, communicating, helping, animating)
it should be an important question for the present and future :
is openSUSE definitely a community without a community manager ?
(who can answer ? who decide ? who choose ?)
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On 06/11/2015 11:56 AM, Françoise Wybrecht wrote:
(I wrote a few mails about openSUSE. You are free to trash them or to "not read", but of course, I secretely ;-) hope not.)
So "is openSUSE a community without a community manager?"
Yes.
is my first "key project question",
as Joss was hired for that a few years ago, did a lot of articles, marketing, noise for and around openSUSE, he "did the job" (2011 was a good marketing year, no?)
So are you saying we need a person with the title of community manager to do marketing?
then Augustin was hired too did try to "reorganize openSUSE community with less success, he left ? we guess (even if he is still managing openSUSE group on linkedin)
Agustin does not work for SUSE anymore, but that has been a while and we as a community cannot really expect that SUSE makes announcements when people come and go.
then ??? no information on the project list ? no formal information (on what was decided)
And now ? Some of us have met Doug ... he was not introduced, wasn't he. as far as I heard, he was not hired as a community manager, did he ?
No, but again, why would we expect that personnel decisions by SUSE are announcement material on the openSUSE mailing lists?
If anyone that contributes to openSUSE with an @suse.com e-mail address leaves the company should that be announced? Why? Should it be announced that we just hired a new person on the team I work on? Why?
Doug is here to help with marketing, organization of events, getting openSUSE Beer orders sorted out and all kinds of other stuff. Does it matter what his title is? Can he not just be Doug, the great guy that happens to work at SUSE and helps out with the project?
in fact, we (member/contributors ... non SUSE employees) don't know who is "responsible" for what ?
We the community are responsible for openSUSE. Some of us in the community just happen to have @suse.com e-mail addresses.
(about "SUSE ppl working for openSUSE" - since the openSUSE booster team is no more ... ?)
And if there are specific issues the governance structure declares the openSUSE Board as the instance of last decision. The board is of course also there to answer questions when help is needed.
The openSUSE Board also has an appointed chairman with an @suse.com e-mail address that is the tying link between the company and the community when that link is necessary.
is there a wiki page somewhere ?
Good question, search for "governance" on the wiki produces nothing but a Google search reveals a section about governance in the guiding principles. That section should be sufficient.
explaining who (from SUSE) is working for openSUSE distribution or collaborating to openSUSE project with openSUSE "non-SUSE contributors" ?
This sounds like you are now advocating for counting who does what, when I am pretty certain in a different thread you questioned the reason behind the monitoring of contributions saying that it should not be all that important that we count.
Anyway, again, why would we need this?
who do what ?
People do what they are interested in.
Comment : it's a difficult mission (challenge?) to manage a community as openSUSE but it's very pretentious to believe that a community can grow and go over challenges without a "community manager"
Well that is debatable. I happen to have a different opinion. I think not having a person with the title community manager is a good thing. Does it make some things more difficult? Maybe. However, in the long run I expect a community that is more self organizing and stronger for i t.
Are we having trouble with the self organizing part? In certain areas of the project yes, no question. Will we solve these problems, I am convinced that we will. Once we get to the point where we actually focus on the problems rather than trying to find solutions to the problems by making changes in unrelated areas.
(boosting, listening, communicating, helping, animating)
it should be an important question for the present and future :
is openSUSE definitely a community without a community manager ?
Yes it is.
Later, Robert
- -- Robert Schweikert MAY THE SOURCE BE WITH YOU Public Cloud Architect LINUX rjschwei@suse.com IRC: robjo
Le 11/06/2015 18:30, Robert Schweikert a écrit :
is openSUSE definitely a community without a community manager ?
Yes it is.
well, it's sometime difficult to follow the stream...
the board have no task really affected to one people, at least here:
for example, I like this guy, but what is he doing, openSUSE related?
https://youtu.be/u844cs-V__Q?list=PL_AMhvchzBaeV36wYqnKb7xWAN0zfDfjz
I remember also having much difficulties to write release notes, not knowing what was new and interesting in the new distro
It's a bit for this than I tried to revive an openSUSE weekly news, without success...
I sometime wonder : are there two many communication channels, or not enough? Confused.
I'm still glad to see that the discussions after OSC- allowed to see more people than usual on the discussion.
We will have the summer to reread all this and try to make it clear(er)
thanks jdd
jdd wrote:
Le 11/06/2015 18:30, Robert Schweikert a écrit :
is openSUSE definitely a community without a community manager ?
Yes it is.
well, it's sometime difficult to follow the stream...
the board have no task really affected to one people, at least here:
for example, I like this guy, but what is he doing, openSUSE related?
https://youtu.be/u844cs-V__Q?list=PL_AMhvchzBaeV36wYqnKb7xWAN0zfDfjz
Talking & dancing. According to Xing, since March 2015 he is "Team Lead Documentation Team" @ SUSE, prior to that he was a journalist/author/freelancer.
On 11/06/15 18:30, Robert Schweikert wrote:
explaining who (from SUSE) is working for openSUSE distribution or collaborating to openSUSE project with openSUSE "non-SUSE contributors" ?
This sounds like you are now advocating for counting who does what, when I am pretty certain in a different thread you questioned the reason behind the monitoring of contributions saying that it should not be all that important that we count.
Anyway, again, why would we need this?
to collaborate ;)
Robert Schweikert wrote:
Agustin does not work for SUSE anymore, but that has been a while and we as a community cannot really expect that SUSE makes announcements when people come and go.
If they have any significant involvement/presence wrt openSUSE, I think we can really expect that. Jos was announced when being bolted on as a community manager. When it was not announced that he'd left, there's a message in that by itself.
No, but again, why would we expect that personnel decisions by SUSE are announcement material on the openSUSE mailing lists?
Only when they have a more or less specific role in openSUSE.
Doug is here to help with marketing, organization of events, getting openSUSE Beer orders sorted out and all kinds of other stuff. Does it matter what his title is? Can he not just be Doug, the great guy that happens to work at SUSE and helps out with the project?
Hah, we're back to the missing organigram. Stop.
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On 06/11/2015 02:31 PM, Per Jessen wrote:
Robert Schweikert wrote:
Agustin does not work for SUSE anymore, but that has been a while and we as a community cannot really expect that SUSE makes announcements when people come and go.
If they have any significant involvement/presence wrt openSUSE, I think we can really expect that. Jos was announced when being bolted on as a community manager. When it was not announced that he'd left, there's a message in that by itself.
Yes, the message is, things change. So did the idea about announcements. I do not disagree with you that at some point in time there were announcements. At some point in time we also had < 5 contributors that did not have a @suse.com e-mail address. We should be happy and proud that we have established the community with sufficient independence that such announcements no longer take place.
Later, Robert
- -- Robert Schweikert MAY THE SOURCE BE WITH YOU Public Cloud Architect LINUX rjschwei@suse.com IRC: robjo
Robert Schweikert wrote:
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On 06/11/2015 02:31 PM, Per Jessen wrote:
Robert Schweikert wrote:
Agustin does not work for SUSE anymore, but that has been a while and we as a community cannot really expect that SUSE makes announcements when people come and go.
If they have any significant involvement/presence wrt openSUSE, I think we can really expect that. Jos was announced when being bolted on as a community manager. When it was not announced that he'd left, there's a message in that by itself.
Yes, the message is, things change.
I beg to differ. To me, the message reads "we don't care enough to tell you". Whoever sacked Jos or received his resignation, did not think it worthwhile to inform the openSUSE community that their SUSE appointed community manager had left.
On 11 June 2015 at 20:55, Per Jessen per@computer.org wrote:
I beg to differ. To me, the message reads "we don't care enough to tell you". Whoever sacked Jos or received his resignation, did not think it worthwhile to inform the openSUSE community that their SUSE appointed community manager had left.
It was announced, by the SUSE appointed community manager at the time:
http://blog.jospoortvliet.com/2014/03/leaving-suse.html
Richard Brown wrote:
On 11 June 2015 at 20:55, Per Jessen per@computer.org wrote:
I beg to differ. To me, the message reads "we don't care enough to tell you". Whoever sacked Jos or received his resignation, did not think it worthwhile to inform the openSUSE community that their SUSE appointed community manager had left.
It was announced, by the SUSE appointed community manager at the time:
Richard, making important announcements to the openSUSE community in one's own blog is, well, mind boggling. Pretty odd for both Jos and whoever paid his salary.
No, unless it was posted to opensuse-project or opensuse-announcement, Jos' leaving was not announced to the openSUSE community. I found out through linkedin at some point.
Le 11/06/2015 21:09, Richard Brown a écrit :
On 11 June 2015 at 20:55, Per Jessen per@computer.org wrote:
I beg to differ. To me, the message reads "we don't care enough to tell you". Whoever sacked Jos or received his resignation, did not think it worthwhile to inform the openSUSE community that their SUSE appointed community manager had left.
It was announced, by the SUSE appointed community manager at the time:
and I remember having read it, but I didn't read hat there would no more be somebody to make the job. It could have been somebody of the board, or somebody else, but anyway it often needs close (physical) connection with SUSE.
when things go well, we do not need any manager, but when they don't somebody have to start.
I tried, at my small level, to do so starting discussions, and I hope to be able in a month or so to summarize what have been said.
but it's not possible to start really doing things without knowing if everybody agree, at least in part.
For example, the way I think we should communicate with candidate members and the way you see the things are pretty different (not to say mine is better).
Also, when it's time to build tools, only the connect admin can do...
jdd
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On 06/11/2015 03:46 PM, jdd wrote:
Le 11/06/2015 21:09, Richard Brown a écrit :
On 11 June 2015 at 20:55, Per Jessen per@computer.org wrote:
I beg to differ. To me, the message reads "we don't care enough to tell you". Whoever sacked Jos or received his resignation, did not think it worthwhile to inform the openSUSE community that their SUSE appointed community manager had left.
It was announced, by the SUSE appointed community manager at the time:
and I remember having read it, but I didn't read hat there would no more be somebody to make the job. It could have been somebody of the board, or somebody else, but anyway it often needs close (physical) connection with SUSE.
when things go well, we do not need any manager, but when they don't somebody have to start.
I tried, at my small level,
thank you for the start.
Is this not the point in the end? If there is always someone there that gets paid and has @suse.com as their e-mail address how are we as a community ever going to learn to walk on our own? Especially in the areas of marketing and other not so technical areas.
Yes, we are lacking right now, yes, we are discussing more than doing, and ... But I truly believe that we will emerge from this eventually with a functioning marketing part of the community that is not driven by someone that has @suse.com.
Later, Robert
- -- Robert Schweikert MAY THE SOURCE BE WITH YOU Public Cloud Architect LINUX rjschwei@suse.com IRC: robjo
On 12/06/15 04:55, Per Jessen wrote:
Robert Schweikert wrote:
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On 06/11/2015 02:31 PM, Per Jessen wrote:
Robert Schweikert wrote:
Agustin does not work for SUSE anymore, but that has been a while and we as a community cannot really expect that SUSE makes announcements when people come and go.
If they have any significant involvement/presence wrt openSUSE, I think we can really expect that. Jos was announced when being bolted on as a community manager. When it was not announced that he'd left, there's a message in that by itself.
Yes, the message is, things change.
I beg to differ. To me, the message reads "we don't care enough to tell you". Whoever sacked Jos or received his resignation, did not think it worthwhile to inform the openSUSE community that their SUSE appointed community manager had left
Spot on, Per!
BC
On 11/06/15 18:30, Robert Schweikert wrote:
is my first "key project question",
as Joss was hired for that a few years ago, did a lot of articles, marketing, noise for and around openSUSE, he "did the job" (2011 was a good marketing year, no?)
So are you saying we need a person with the title of community manager to do marketing?
thank you Robert for your answer to the main thread question, and :
NO I was not saying "that we we need a person with the title of community manager to do marketing?"
Five minutes ago, I found very great answers and actions around boosting (*) a community ...
The job requires you to be creative and analytical, empathetic but data driven, a leader and a follower, a communicator and a listener, a people person but have technical skills, a thinker and an organizer.
The community manager's job is to create a participatory environment -- the conditions where people are motivated to build and grow the community together.
Communities are like gardens, which can whither away by applying too much pressure and the wrong amount of water. Instead of controlling every outcome and every activity, the community manager's job is to create a participatory environment -- the conditions where people are motivated to build and grow the community together.
Just to explain what it can be ... (of course different & specific in each community)
(*) (@Andy : it's in the dictionary )
On Thursday 11 June 2015 12:30:45 Robert Schweikert wrote:
And if there are specific issues the governance structure declares the openSUSE Board as the instance of last decision. The board is of course also there to answer questions when help is needed.
The governance structure doesn't declare the board as instance of last decision. It's there to facilitate decision making, not to take decisions for the community. This is a very important distinction which is a key to a healthy community. I would hope that the board is very well aware of that.
The much more important part is communication, and that's more than just answering questions, and it's also not about writing many and long emails. Establishing better transparency within the community regarding SUSE's involvement (e.g. the community manager role) would be one example.
On Friday 12 June 2015 10.31:10 Cornelius Schumacher wrote:
On Thursday 11 June 2015 12:30:45 Robert Schweikert wrote:
And if there are specific issues the governance structure declares the openSUSE Board as the instance of last decision. The board is of course also there to answer questions when help is needed.
The governance structure doesn't declare the board as instance of last decision. It's there to facilitate decision making, not to take decisions for the community. This is a very important distinction which is a key to a healthy community. I would hope that the board is very well aware of that.
Personally, I am ;-)
The much more important part is communication, and that's more than just answering questions, and it's also not about writing many and long emails. Establishing better transparency within the community regarding SUSE's involvement (e.g. the community manager role) would be one example.
Are you talking about dreams comes true ? :-)))
On 11 June 2015 at 16:56, Françoise Wybrecht fwybrecht@ioda-net.ch wrote:
(I wrote a few mails about openSUSE. You are free to trash them or to "not read", but of course, I secretely ;-) hope not.)
So "is openSUSE a community without a community manager?"
Excuse me for being blunt, but *WAT?!*
Until Jono Bacon was recruited by Canonical 5+ years ago there was no notion of "Community Manager", none of our peers have this role anymore and very very few projects or companies have someone with this empty meaning title. We had a vibrant community back then and still do, sure things have changed but we still have active members and our usage is good.
I would rather have an "openSUSE Janitor" than "openSUSE Community Manager", why? Well a Janitor cleans and fixes stuff, our community should not be managed but should be fostered and encouraged.
is my first "key project question",
If that is a *key* question for you related to the project, then I fear you are either looking at the project incorrectly or don't understand the project.
as Joss was hired for that a few years ago, did a lot of articles, marketing, noise for and around openSUSE, he "did the job" (2011 was a good marketing year, no?)
As much as I like Jos, I disagree. I made my thoughts very clear on this in the past. Jos did nothing but marketing, if PR/blogs/social media are what a community manager does then Doug fulfils that role and then some. Titles are immaterial here, we don't need nor do we want flashy sounding titles; we don't want rock stars, primadonnas, evangelists. What we do need and want are people that get stuff done, their title has nothing to do with it. Why should it?
then Augustin was hired too did try to "reorganize openSUSE community with less success, he left ? we guess (even if he is still managing openSUSE group on linkedin)
Really? You want to bring that up?!
then ??? no information on the project list ? no formal information (on what was decided)
So what if there was no announcement of new starters etc? Why should we care?
And now ? Some of us have met Doug ... he was not introduced, wasn't he. as far as I heard, he was not hired as a community manager, did he ?
No he wasn't hired as a community manager, his role is multi faceted and he's doing a pretty good job at it. If I remember correctly, his official title is consultant. So what?!
in fact, we (member/contributors ... non SUSE employees) don't know who is "responsible" for what ? (about "SUSE ppl working for openSUSE" - since the openSUSE booster team is no more ... ?)
We are not the Linux kernel, do not need subsystem maintainers. If you want to and can, then just do it!
is there a wiki page somewhere ? explaining who (from SUSE) is working for openSUSE distribution or collaborating to openSUSE project with openSUSE "non-SUSE contributors" ? who do what ?
I don't think so, and to be honest I hope there isn't. Why should we care where someone works? You are running into the past and creating a "them & us" scenario. We have enough on our plate than caring about who someone's employer is.
Comment : it's a difficult mission (challenge?) to manage a community as openSUSE but it's very pretentious to believe that a community can grow and go over challenges without a "community manager"
(boosting, listening, communicating, helping, animating)
it should be an important question for the present and future :
is openSUSE definitely a community without a community manager ?
(who can answer ? who decide ? who choose ?)
As I mentioned, our community does not need managing. What it needs is mentoring, fostering, and importantly have fun.
If you have any questions, issues or complaints then you can contact the Board at board@opensuse.org. It is our job to mediate and communicate. The mailing lists are not the place for ramblings. All this noise drowns out the useful content because people switch off. If you feel that you must write your thoughts down, then please do it in a blog post.
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On 11/06/15 20:10, Andrew Wafaa wrote:
The mailing lists are not the place for ramblings
since 2011, I never told you that kind of remark,
even when you "wrote ramblings on this list, instead of putting it in you blog",
(I like so much boomerang, and you ? same word in french and english, isn't it) ?
and you're right, my native langage is not english but I understand my friend google when searching for community manager ...
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Andrew Wafaa -
Basil Chupin -
Bruno Friedmann -
Cornelius Schumacher -
Françoise Wybrecht -
jdd -
Per Jessen -
Richard Brown -
Robert Schweikert