Re: [opensuse-project] openSUSE Strategy Discussion: Community Statement
Whilst we are talking about supporting a wide range of users/contributors, what about a11y? In all honesty I'm not so sure we could suck any more at it even if we tried to suck at it! As I had blogged previously a11y isn't just for those with disabilities but for all users. It can also be used for automating tests etc. In my mind a strategy needs to have a Short (0-12 months), Medium (12-24 months) & Long (>24 months) term goal. Both medium and long term would flex with the times but short term is fixed. As such it would be perfectly feasable to have openSUSE as the most accessible distro as a short term goal. There are some very knowledgable people within the community on the topic of a11y, heck several of them work for Novell. Why don't we get at least one of them across for the conference to educate us? Making sure that all users and contributors find openSUSE the best experience possible is what we have to do, and that means all aspects of the project, regardless of whether it is distro, obs, forums, mailing list, whatever. (Sorry for top posting, it's my phone - honest!) Andy "Alberto Passalacqua" <albert.passalacqua@gmail.com> wrote:
2010/6/18 Cornelius Schumacher <cschum@suse.de>:
Personally I'm not interested in a project which doesn't target a wide range of users. But that might be only me.
Well, we are at least two ;-)
Best, -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
-- Andrew Wafaa IRC: FunkyPenguin GPG: 0x3A36312F openSUSE: Get It, Discover It, Create It at http://www.opensuse.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Friday 18 June 2010 16:59:35 Andrew Wafaa wrote:
Whilst we are talking about supporting a wide range of users/contributors, what about a11y? In all honesty I'm not so sure we could suck any more at it even if we tried to suck at it! As I had blogged previously a11y isn't just for those with disabilities but for all users. It can also be used for automating tests etc.
Could you give some examples of what that would involve ? I hear a11y all the time, but I really don't see what "not sucking at a11y" would mean, from a technical POV. - add more packages ? - patch lots of upstream software because it's not a11y-friendly ? - improve our installer because it isn't a11y-friendly ? ... ? cheers -- -o) Pascal Bleser <pascal.bleser@opensuse.org> /\\ http://opensuse.org -- I took the green pill _\_v FOSDEM::6+7 Feb 2010, Brussels, http://fosdem.org
On Friday 2010-06-18 21:42, Pascal Bleser wrote:
On Friday 18 June 2010 16:59:35 Andrew Wafaa wrote:
Whilst we are talking about supporting a wide range of users/contributors, what about a11y? In all honesty I'm not so sure we could suck any more at it even if we tried to suck at it! As I had blogged previously a11y isn't just for those with disabilities but for all users. It can also be used for automating tests etc.
Could you give some examples of what that would involve ?
I hear a11y all the time, but I really don't see what "not sucking at a11y" would mean, from a technical POV.
- add more packages ? - patch lots of upstream software because it's not a11y-friendly ? - improve our installer because it isn't a11y-friendly ? ... ?
The installer is ok. People with blindness can choose text mode (not just during install) and use a brltty (special keyboard) which is how it's done currently. Ideal for server work :-) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Fri, 2010-06-18 at 22:19 +0200, Jan Engelhardt wrote:
On Friday 2010-06-18 21:42, Pascal Bleser wrote:
On Friday 18 June 2010 16:59:35 Andrew Wafaa wrote:
Whilst we are talking about supporting a wide range of users/contributors, what about a11y? In all honesty I'm not so sure we could suck any more at it even if we tried to suck at it! As I had blogged previously a11y isn't just for those with disabilities but for all users. It can also be used for automating tests etc.
Could you give some examples of what that would involve ?
I hear a11y all the time, but I really don't see what "not sucking at a11y" would mean, from a technical POV.
- add more packages ? - patch lots of upstream software because it's not a11y-friendly ? - improve our installer because it isn't a11y-friendly ? ... ?
The installer is ok. People with blindness can choose text mode (not just during install) and use a brltty (special keyboard) which is how it's done currently. Ideal for server work :-)
Frankly, while a goal of being the best accessible distro is a great one, I personally only care that we're good. I strongly believe in the philosophy of "a11y" which says that any person, regardless of physical or mental abilities, can use any computer that he/she walks up to. That being said... I think our biggest problems in making sure that a11y works.is: a) we don't have enough people testing a11y. We have not done well at attracting users of accessible technology (AT) tools to test us. And the few and far-in-between users we do have, most don't make themselves prominently known that they're such users. I actually don't have a roster of people I could list as a11y users because I don't know who's out there. b) we have packagers who genuinely do care about a11y but don't really know how to use AT in order to verify that what they packaged actually works. I think this could be resolved with some training. c) we're not doing a good job of utilizing the resources we do have within our "family." Novell does contribute to a11y and in fact one member of the mono-a11y team is now the maintainer of at-spi2. And its generally believed that with at-spi2, we're going to solve a lot of problems we've had in the past. d) We don't do a good job of keeping a11y high on the radar. As I understand it, LDTP (an automated testing system) didn't make it into OBS 2.0, although its being discussed for inclusion at a future release. Ensuring that we provide automated testing would help a lot to verify that a11y works at the distro level and at the package level. Likewise, I see more attitudinal attention to a11y in other distros. It's often a part of their conversations and development processes. I don't see that happening here as much. Actually, even at last year's Conference, I held a discussion session on a11y with Stephen Shaw (currently on the mono-a11y team) and only one person showed up for that discussion. It simply isn't high on our radar as a project. e) KDE vs. GNOME A11y. Now I'm not trying to start a discussion about better desktop environments here, but like it or not, GNOME does excel and invests heavily in a11y development. KDE is definitely not there yet. KDE is working towards it, for sure. And I'm rooting for KDE to get better at it. And there's been DBUS work in the last couple of years to make GNOME a11y apps work well in KDE environments. Perhaps we could do more to contribute to KDE upstream a11y? I don't know, but I'd love to see us be the leaders in this field rather than the followers. And this does actually bring up the question of whether it is prudent to propose a strategy of making openSUSE primarily a KDE distro. Until KDE is fully there with a11y, how can we expect openSUSE to be able to truly compete in new markets? Especially as more and more organizations (NFP's, governments, and corporates) are following accessibility mandates and regulations. That's one of the prime benefits, in my opinion, that openSUSE offers. If you *don't* need AT and prefer to use KDE, fine. If you do need AT and need to use GNOME, great, we can offer that as well. And Jan, about the brltty functionality. While I am not a braille user (yet), I have been getting second hand reports lately that the brltty doesn't work well in openSUSE. Again, this is an issue of proper testing before release of a11y, and we simply right now do not have the resources to support it well nor do we do enough to attract such testers. What can we do for the immediate future? Well, I have asked some a11y experts to consider coming out to the openSUSE Conference and at least begin a conversation with folks there about what a distro needs to do to tend to A11y and how we can improve our practices. I wish I could be that person, but I'm simply not technical enough to address it. Hopefully, we'll be able to use the Conference as a starting point to getting us on the road to a reputation as an accessible distro and hopefully people will actually show up and participate in the discussion. Bryen M Yunashko openSUSE Board Member GNOME-A11y Outreach lead -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
participants (4)
-
Andrew Wafaa -
Bryen M. Yunashko -
Jan Engelhardt -
Pascal Bleser