[opensuse-project] The new wiki search plain sucks
Hi guys, I don't know who decided on where the new wikis search searches and I don't care but the current way just sucks. E.g. go to the wiki and try to find the former "How to install the NVIDIA drivers" article as shown at http://old-en.opensuse.org/NVIDIA_drivers E.g. search for "nvidia" and note the first article shown there is something about compiz without the proper one being in sight. I've been told that most look for information about the project but I dare to differ cause most ppl - IMHO - look for solutions. If you think that the most important stuff is to offer information about the project then please split it up into 2 wikis: 1. where it is now about the project 2. at wiki.opensuse.org (even more naturally) and make that the "We have the answers" for your "I need help" questions". (Note, again, I'm not arguing to necessarily split it up but about having a search box (in the upper right corner) that actually is able to find some stuff.) My point simply is if someone bothers to search the wiki it certainly wont help to hide it behind some "just login and define your search preferences" thingy. And it certainly wont help if some searchbox on some subpage will show the proper stuff. regards, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Might be better to send something like this to: opensuse-wiki@opensuse.org On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 04:58, Stephan Kleine wrote:
I don't know who decided on where the new wikis search searches and I don't care but the current way just sucks.
Where MedaiWiki searches - if it's using the default search isn't really all that controllable. MedaiWiki search is rather poor (and acknowledged as such).
E.g. go to the wiki and try to find the former "How to install the NVIDIA drivers" article as shown at http://old-en.opensuse.org/NVIDIA_drivers
E.g. search for "nvidia" and note the first article shown there is something about compiz without the proper one being in sight.
From a human being standpoint I agree the search returns less than useful results. From a MediaWiki search algorithm... it's what I expect. It searches page titles and if it doesn't find an exact match it then guesses what to present based on a page content search. It's a bad guesser.
I've been told that most look for information about the project but I dare to differ cause most ppl - IMHO - look for solutions.
Info about the project or solutions is not the problem here.... it's MedaiWiki's poor default search.
If you think that the most important stuff is to offer information about the project then please split it up into 2 wikis:
That would be a nightmare and a recipe for disaster in my opinion. A better solution would be to refine or change the search engine used in the Wiki. MWSearch and GoogleSiteSearch (or alternatively the Google Custom Search Engine) do a much much much better job at producing useful results. My suggestion is that instead of splitting into two Wikis, we simple fix the broken default search that everyone knows is useless... replace it with something that actually works (meaning that provides more useful results). http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:MWSearch http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:GoogleSiteSearch http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Google_Custom_Search_Engine C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Might be better to send something like this to: opensuse-wiki@opensuse.org
On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 04:58, Stephan Kleine wrote:
I don't know who decided on where the new wikis search searches and I don't care but the current way just sucks.
Where MedaiWiki searches - if it's using the default search isn't really all that controllable. MedaiWiki search is rather poor (and acknowledged as such).
E.g. go to the wiki and try to find the former "How to install the NVIDIA drivers" article as shown at http://old-en.opensuse.org/NVIDIA_drivers
E.g. search for "nvidia" and note the first article shown there is something about compiz without the proper one being in sight.
From a human being standpoint I agree the search returns less than useful results. From a MediaWiki search algorithm... it's what I expect. It searches page titles and if it doesn't find an exact match it then guesses what to present based on a page content search. It's a bad guesser.
I've been told that most look for information about the project but I dare to differ cause most ppl - IMHO - look for solutions.
Info about the project or solutions is not the problem here.... it's MedaiWiki's poor default search.
If you think that the most important stuff is to offer information about the project then please split it up into 2 wikis:
That would be a nightmare and a recipe for disaster in my opinion. Right, two wiki just won't work by definition.
A better solution would be to refine or change the search engine used in the Wiki. MWSearch and GoogleSiteSearch (or alternatively the Google Custom Search Engine) do a much much much better job at producing useful results. My suggestion is that instead of splitting into two Wikis, we simple fix the broken default search that everyone knows is useless... replace it with something that actually works (meaning that provides more useful results). Yes, we need to fix our search. Imo we need to agree on a broader number of name spaces included in the default search. Yesterday I looked for Ambassadors with no result. And the small notification ..only some name spaces are searched is especially tricky
On Tuesday 13 July 2010 07:21:27 C wrote: the more you have a user in front of the wiki. What's a name space, what's the difference between Main and openSUSE etc. ? Best Michael
http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:MWSearch http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:GoogleSiteSearch http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Google_Custom_Search_Engine
C.
-- Michael Löffler, Product Management SUSE LINUX Products GmbH - Nürnberg - AG Nürnberg - HRB 16746 - GF: Markus Rex -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Jul 13, 10 09:40:41 +0200, Michael Loeffler wrote:
On Tuesday 13 July 2010 07:21:27 C wrote:
I've been told that most look for information about the project but I dare to differ cause most ppl - IMHO - look for solutions.
Both. It is perfectly okay that the wiki pefers to give info about the project. But ...
Info about the project or solutions is not the problem here.... it's MedaiWiki's poor default search.
... yes the search is poor. It falsely claims e.g. No page title matches There is no page titled "video". You can create this page. This leaves me shouting, "I know that a page titled "video" exists, tell me in which namespace it is." (that is 'HCL:Video' in this case). (Adding a 'More ...' button or something should be easy)
Yes, we need to fix our search. Imo we need to agree on a broader number of name spaces included in the default search.
1) Using a 'real' search engine (like e.h. GoogleSiteSearch) is very important. Please push this. 2) Changing the number of included namespaces does not help. We need useful sorting more urgently than allowing the 'good' resutls to be buried further down in the list. 3) If 1) is not feasable, I'd volunteer to work on the search engine for a day or two.
Yesterday I looked for Ambassadors with no result. And the small notification ..only some name spaces are searched is especially tricky the more you have a user in front of the wiki. What's a name space, what's the difference between Main and openSUSE etc. ?
Right, this is too complicated. Everybody knows that google can do the trick without a lot of check boxes and additional fields filled in. BTW: The official solution - as i've been told - is this: Create a portal page for the stuff that you want searchable. - If you find that the search engine fails on 'Ambassador' then take care that this topic is covered by a portal page. - That is what I did for hackweek, I thought of it as an ugly workaround, but got official blessings. cheers, JW- -- o \ Juergen Weigert paint it green! __/ _=======.=======_ <V> | jw@suse.de back to ascii! __/ _---|____________\/ \ | 0911 74053-508 __/ (____/ /\ (/) | _____________________________/ _/ \_ vim:set sw=2 wm=8 SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nuernberg) "You are trying to use packages from project 'openSUSE:11.2'. Note that malicious packages can compromise your system." -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On 13/07/10 12:49, Juergen Weigert wrote: [...]
... yes the search is poor. It falsely claims e.g. No page title matches There is no page titled "video". You can create this page. This leaves me shouting, "I know that a page titled "video" exists, tell me in which namespace it is." (that is 'HCL:Video' in this case).
(Adding a 'More ...' button or something should be easy)
Yes, we need to fix our search. Imo we need to agree on a broader number of name spaces included in the default search.
1) Using a 'real' search engine (like e.h. GoogleSiteSearch) is very important. Please push this. 2) Changing the number of included namespaces does not help. We need useful sorting more urgently than allowing the 'good' resutls to be buried further down in the list. 3) If 1) is not feasable, I'd volunteer to work on the search engine for a day or two.
Yesterday I looked for Ambassadors with no result. And the small notification ..only some name spaces are searched is especially tricky the more you have a user in front of the wiki. What's a name space, what's the difference between Main and openSUSE etc. ?
Right, this is too complicated. Everybody knows that google can do the trick without a lot of check boxes and additional fields filled in.
BTW: The official solution - as i've been told - is this:
Create a portal page for the stuff that you want searchable. - If you find that the search engine fails on 'Ambassador' then take care that this topic is covered by a portal page. - That is what I did for hackweek, I thought of it as an ugly workaround, but got official blessings.
cheers, JW-
For your interest - there are some threads on corresponding issues on the forums: - http://forums.opensuse.org/english/community/opensuse-wiki-discussions/44027... - http://forums.opensuse.org/english/community/opensuse-wiki-discussions/43597... - http://forums.opensuse.org/english/community/opensuse-wiki-discussions/44116... And maybe for "red links" (links to not existing articles) a combination of the possibilities to search and to create a new page would make sense (like it in done in the en.wikipedia, the de.wikipedia,....e.g.: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pistazienfresser). Greetings pistazienfresser -- - openSUSE profile: https://users.opensuse.org/show/pistazienfresser -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Tirsdag den 13. juli 2010 04:58:36 skrev Stephan Kleine:
I don't know who decided on where the new wikis search searches and I don't care but the current way just sucks.
E.g. go to the wiki and try to find the former "How to install the NVIDIA drivers" article as shown at http://old-en.opensuse.org/NVIDIA_drivers
E.g. search for "nvidia" and note the first article shown there is something about compiz without the proper one being in sight.
I noticed the exact same problem. But if you check the checkbox to include the SDB namespace in the search, the proper Nvidia article is found. I think the SDB namespace should be included in searches by default along "main" and "Portal:" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 08:13, Martin Schlander wrote:
Tirsdag den 13. juli 2010 04:58:36 skrev Stephan Kleine:
I don't know who decided on where the new wikis search searches and I don't care but the current way just sucks.
E.g. go to the wiki and try to find the former "How to install the NVIDIA drivers" article as shown at http://old-en.opensuse.org/NVIDIA_drivers
E.g. search for "nvidia" and note the first article shown there is something about compiz without the proper one being in sight.
I noticed the exact same problem. But if you check the checkbox to include the SDB namespace in the search, the proper Nvidia article is found.
I think the SDB namespace should be included in searches by default along "main" and "Portal:"
That's easy to set... http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:$wgNamespacesToBeSearchedDefault On the topic of how poor the default search is... http://www.searchtools.com/analysis/mediawiki-search/index-mediawiki-search-... C -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Hi, On 13.07.2010 04:58, Stephan Kleine wrote:
E.g. go to the wiki and try to find the former "How to install the NVIDIA drivers" article as shown at http://old-en.opensuse.org/NVIDIA_drivers
E.g. search for "nvidia" and note the first article shown there is something about compiz without the proper one being in sight.
In reality the most prominent page that you find in the search results is http://wiki.opensuse.org/SDB:NVIDIA which is a nice overview article about the whole topic of NVIDIA cards. So what exactly is the problem?
I've been told that most look for information about the project but I dare to differ cause most ppl - IMHO - look for solutions.
Well that might certainly be your opinion, as you expressed it so florid, but it's not the reality and also not what we, the openSUSE wiki team, want for the wiki. We have set some clear goals for the new openSUSE wiki and everybody was invited to participate in this effort. You didn't so please respect what we came up with. We are certainly open to discuss how to enhance the wiki search results in any way other then starting from scratch again. Just come by our mailinglist (opensuse-wiki) and talk to us... Henne -- Henne Vogelsang, openSUSE. Everybody has a plan, until they get hit. - Mike Tyson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On 13/07/10 14:01, Henne Vogelsang wrote:
Hi,
On 13.07.2010 04:58, Stephan Kleine wrote:
E.g. go to the wiki and try to find the former "How to install the NVIDIA drivers" article as shown at http://old-en.opensuse.org/NVIDIA_drivers
E.g. search for "nvidia" and note the first article shown there is something about compiz without the proper one being in sight. Possible solutions:
1a) Search with google: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=site%3Awiki.opensuse.org+nvidia&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai= 1b) Search with google by bilding yourself a search plugin that uses something like 1a) for your browser. 2) Log in and change your default settings in the wiki.opensuse.org .
In reality the most prominent page that you find in the search results is http://wiki.opensuse.org/SDB:NVIDIA which is a nice overview article about the whole topic of NVIDIA cards. So what exactly is the problem?
The problems may be: 1) If I search for NVIDA on wiki.openSUSE.org I get to http://wiki.opensuse.org/Special:Search cause in the default settings the search engine of the wiki.openSUSE.org only searches in the namespaces Main and Portal, see: http://forums.opensuse.org/english/community/opensuse-wiki-discussions/44116... 2) There is no redirect on http://wiki.opensuse.org/NVIDIA or http://en.opensuse.org/NVIDIA_drivers (#REDIRECT [[SDB:NVIDIA]]) 3) But the biggest problem may be, that Henne (see http://en.opensuse.org/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&limit=500&target=Hennevogel , click on next 500 and count) and the others from the wiki-Team had been working really hard on this new wiki and there was not much talk related to the wiki on the wiki-discussion pages or the user-talk pages of the wiki team or on the forums http://forums.opensuse.org/english/community/opensuse-wiki-discussions/ or any where else I had looked at. ;-) So I think it is understandable that Henne seems to be a bit 'puzzled' about time of complaining...;-) Greetings pistazienfresser -- - openSUSE profile: https://users.opensuse.org/show/pistazienfresser -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Tuesday July 13 2010 14:01:45 Henne Vogelsang wrote:
Hi,
On 13.07.2010 04:58, Stephan Kleine wrote:
E.g. go to the wiki and try to find the former "How to install the NVIDIA drivers" article as shown at http://old-en.opensuse.org/NVIDIA_drivers
E.g. search for "nvidia" and note the first article shown there is something about compiz without the proper one being in sight.
In reality the most prominent page that you find in the search results is http://wiki.opensuse.org/SDB:NVIDIA which is a nice overview article about the whole topic of NVIDIA cards. So what exactly is the problem?
That one has to know in advance to which namespace the article one is searching belongs to? In my reality that page doesn't show up until I tick the "SDB" box in the advanced search options which isn't exactly obvious.
I've been told that most look for information about the project but I dare to differ cause most ppl - IMHO - look for solutions.
Well that might certainly be your opinion, as you expressed it so florid, but it's not the reality and also not what we, the openSUSE wiki team, want for the wiki. We have set some clear goals for the new openSUSE wiki and everybody was invited to participate in this effort. You didn't so please respect what we came up with.
So it is no bug but a "feature", fine. I wasn't aware that some working search that includes howtos / help isn't taken for granted but needs to be explicitly set as goal. Thanks for correcting my understanding of what a wiki is good for, I certainly will respect your work.
We are certainly open to discuss how to enhance the wiki search results in any way other then starting from scratch again. Just come by our mailinglist (opensuse-wiki) and talk to us...
The solution apparently were to include e.g. the SDB namespace by default but since you just told me that this isn't what you, the openSUSE wiki team, want for the wiki I'm not gonna waste your time any further. regards, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
participants (7)
-
C -
Henne Vogelsang -
Juergen Weigert -
Martin Schlander -
Michael Loeffler -
pistazienfresser -
Stephan Kleine