On Sat, Nov 28, 2020 at 7:01 PM Gerald Pfeifer wrote:

On Sat 2020-11-28, Mark Stopka wrote:

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Let's assume the worst here, I won't report anything, but someone with a hero complex would take that conversation to the board complaining about Vojtěch's behavior, appropriate reaction from board side would be I believe to approach first myself (as "victim") and ask my opinion, and I would say "C'mon, Vojtěch, he is such as delicate flower I know him for ages, there is no harm intended on his side", case closed.

It's not that simple.

In public conversations like this there are observers, and what they see affects their own, future behavior. Which may include remaining silent for fear of being shamed. Or leaving. Or ...

I see Neal raising this a strong signal that we all should consider.

In my experience in the Linux Discord communities (especially the openSUSE one), I have dealt with *many* complaints about the mailing lists, and people being afraid to contribute because of how people respond on the lists. I was pushed over the edge after reading the excerpt in my original post after trying to convince someone in the openSUSE Discord community that contributing to openSUSE is easy and fun, and not scary. I want this community to be even more awesome than it already is, so that's why I brought it up. -- 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!

On Sat, 28 Nov 2020 21:22:37 -0500 Neal Gompa wrote:

On Sat, Nov 28, 2020 at 7:01 PM Gerald Pfeifer wrote:

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In public conversations like this there are observers, and what they see affects their own, future behavior. Which may include remaining silent for fear of being shamed. Or leaving. Or ...

I see Neal raising this a strong signal that we all should consider.

In my experience in the Linux Discord communities (especially the openSUSE one), I have dealt with *many* complaints about the mailing lists, and people being afraid to contribute because of how people respond on the lists. I was pushed over the edge after reading the excerpt in my original post after trying to convince someone in the openSUSE Discord community that contributing to openSUSE is easy and fun, and not scary.

Not only that, anyone following this list knows there have been people leaving it as a result of inappropriate responses.

I want this community to be even more awesome than it already is, so that's why I brought it up.

Yes and we can always do better. When I started participating and failed to follow the netiquette, some nice people emailed me privately to explain and I appreciated that. As said by someone else earlier I think this an appropriate way to avoid "shaming people" and prevent frustrating threads. Cheers, Maurizio -- Maurizio Galli (m4u9) Xfce Team https://en.opensuse.org/Portal:Xfce

On Sun, Nov 29, 2020 at 1:56 PM Per Jessen wrote:

Neal Gompa wrote:

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In my experience in the Linux Discord communities (especially the openSUSE one), I have dealt with *many* complaints about the mailing lists, and people being afraid to contribute because of how people respond on the lists.

Is there an archive anywhere where one can go educate oneself in this respect? I find it quite odd that someone should refrain from contributing just because of a poor response on a mailing list.

Personally speaking, my "itch" does not subside just because I am poorly received somewhere, I still wanna scratch it :-)

Neal, IMHO it is just a little too easy to announce that you "have dealt with *many* complaints about the mailing lists" and then scolding the mailing list members without any further evidence.

Each communication channel has it's own "atmosphere", some are tough and direct, others less so. There are learning curves, we all have to scale them.

I don't personally have one that I can offer, most of it was through private chats on Discord, but it has also come up in the main channels on the openSUSE Discord community. Myself, Stasiek, Knurpht, and Maurizio have talked to people publicly and privately about it. As the public chats are indexed and searchable from the Discord client, you can search for discussions about this there. -- 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!

Per Jessen composed on 2020-11-29 20:45 (UTC+0100):

BTW, I have also heard *many* complaints about the Discord channels, what would be a suitable place to bring those up? I am sure you will understand what I mean.

Does anyone really expect any different in a forum with a name that means what it does? : https://www.dictionary.com/browse/discord?s=t [quote] discord ... noun 1-lack of concord or harmony between persons or things: marital discord. 2-disagreement; difference of opinion. 3-strife; dispute; war. ... verb to disagree; be at variance. [/quote] The idiotic name "discord" was enough to dissuade me from even sampling it when originally introduced on mozilla.org as a replacement for other forums. Since Mozilla discontinued its mailing lists, my only recurring Mozilla support contact has been via IRC on Freenode. Learning new things may be easy and second nature while young, but it gets old as the decades pass. How are people supposed to understand attempts to communicate when prominent word choices are made from among those that have been hijacked to have meanings opposite the original(s)? -- Evolution as taught in public schools, like religion, is based on faith, not on science. Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/

On Sun, 2020-11-29 at 15:20 -0500, Felix Miata wrote:

Per Jessen composed on 2020-11-29 20:45 (UTC+0100):

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BTW, I have also heard *many* complaints about the Discord channels, what would be a suitable place to bring those up? I am sure you will understand what I mean.

Does anyone really expect any different in a forum with a name that means what it does? :

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/discord?s=t [quote] discord ... noun 1-lack of concord or harmony between persons or things: marital discord. 2-disagreement; difference of opinion. 3-strife; dispute; war. ... verb to disagree; be at variance. [/quote]

The idiotic name "discord" was enough to dissuade me from even sampling it when originally introduc Hi

Speaking of healthy environment on our mailing list - I would say that calling whatever tool/project "idiotic" is not really a way to go ... Regards Martin

* Petr Tesarik [12-02-20 07:54]:

On Wed, 02 Dec 2020 08:39:56 +0100 Martin Pluskal wrote:

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On Sun, 2020-11-29 at 15:20 -0500, Felix Miata wrote:

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Per Jessen composed on 2020-11-29 20:45 (UTC+0100):

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BTW, I have also heard *many* complaints about the Discord channels, what would be a suitable place to bring those up? I am sure you will understand what I mean.

Does anyone really expect any different in a forum with a name that means what it does? :

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/discord?s=t [quote] discord ... noun 1-lack of concord or harmony between persons or things: marital discord. 2-disagreement; difference of opinion. 3-strife; dispute; war. ... verb to disagree; be at variance. [/quote]

The idiotic name "discord" was enough to dissuade me from even sampling it when originally introduc Hi

Speaking of healthy environment on our mailing list - I would say that calling whatever tool/project "idiotic" is not really a way to go ...

As much as I do not like the word "idiotic" here, Felix did not call the tool and/or project idiotic. He referred to the name. I have to agree that it's not a particularly good name for what it is.

this is beginning to sound an awful lot like the continual bickering about the name/acronym "GIMP". people are going to have to just "man up" and wear thicker skin because there is always going to be something that offends one an not another. if the end in sight is to never "offend" "anyone", speach and the written word will disappear. deliberate and directed should be the only criteria! unintentional should be overlooked, and discussion is NOT necessary. perception does not equal reality! -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode

* Mark Stopka [12-02-20 11:08]:

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there is always going to be something that offends one an not another.

...people who get offended should be offended. ~ Linus Torvalds

I believe that is "very" thick skin. but you have taken it out of context and failed to convey the entire meaning. possibly it should read: people should be offended. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode

* Neal Gompa [12-02-20 11:29]:

On Wed, Dec 2, 2020 at 11:01 AM Patrick Shanahan wrote:

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* Petr Tesarik [12-02-20 07:54]:

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On Wed, 02 Dec 2020 08:39:56 +0100 Martin Pluskal wrote:

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On Sun, 2020-11-29 at 15:20 -0500, Felix Miata wrote:

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Per Jessen composed on 2020-11-29 20:45 (UTC+0100):

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BTW, I have also heard *many* complaints about the Discord channels, what would be a suitable place to bring those up? I am sure you will understand what I mean.

Does anyone really expect any different in a forum with a name that means what it does? :

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/discord?s=t [quote] discord ... noun 1-lack of concord or harmony between persons or things: marital discord. 2-disagreement; difference of opinion. 3-strife; dispute; war. ... verb to disagree; be at variance. [/quote]

The idiotic name "discord" was enough to dissuade me from even sampling it when originally introduc Hi

Speaking of healthy environment on our mailing list - I would say that calling whatever tool/project "idiotic" is not really a way to go ...

As much as I do not like the word "idiotic" here, Felix did not call the tool and/or project idiotic. He referred to the name. I have to agree that it's not a particularly good name for what it is.

this is beginning to sound an awful lot like the continual bickering about the name/acronym "GIMP".

This whole subthread has basically proven why GIMP should be renamed.

disagree but you are free to believe what you want. there is always going to be a difference of opinion on what is right or wrong, offensive or not. the *only* problem with the program name "GIMP" is in perception and perception is NOT reality.

...

people are going to have to just "man up" and wear thicker skin because there is always going to be something that offends one an not another. if the end in sight is to never "offend" "anyone", speach and the written word will disappear.

How are you the arbiter of what people should "man up" for? Generally, the collective consciousness of society decides that. Over the past several decades, as society has evolved, things that were considered okay have become not okay, and that's how it works as society evolves its perception of itself.

In general, a modern society prioritizes inclusiveness in order to benefit from the potential valuable output from a larger, more diverse group of people. This has been true in basically all fields and industries.

as France and it's Muslim populace?

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deliberate and directed should be the only criteria! unintentional should be overlooked, and discussion is NOT necessary.

What are you saying here? I'm confused on what your point is. My reading of this statement indicates that we are not allowed to be proactive about continually improving the Project, and must only react to improve in specific circumstances.

you are arguing about speech and/or perception within the Project. perception ...

This makes no sense, because that means we can't improve ourselves to make more people comfortable to contribute and improve the Project.

you are looking for something not there. has absolutely nothing to do with making perope comfortable to contribut.

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perception does not equal reality!

Perception *is* reality, but it doesn't equal it. Reality for each individual is shaped by their perceptions. Failure to understand that is how you wind up being non-inclusive. And as a Free Software project, we *need* people to feel welcome and able to contribute however they can to the success of the Project and its deliverables.

in fewer/other words, no one can achieve socially acceptable behavour. someone will *always* be offended and/or object. you are reaching for utopia, and I hope you find it. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode

On Wed, 02 Dec 2020 19:02:20 +0000, Jim Henderson wrote:

On Wed, 02 Dec 2020 11:40:45 -0500, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

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in fewer/other words, no one can achieve socially acceptable behavour. someone will *always* be offended and/or object.

The point is to learn from when offense is given (and to learn when offense isn't intended, just as much).

If you say something and someone tells you "that's offensive to me because ...." - the civil thing to do (and I would say 'correct') is to say "I'm sorry, I didn't mean to cause offense - this is what I meant" and then learn from it and don't do it again.

What's so hard about being considerate of other people? What's so hard about being kind?

Put another way: You have the absolute right to be as offensive as you want to be. Other people have the absolute right to call you out for your bullshit. But the world might just be a little better if we defaulted to kindness instead of trying to 'pwn' whomever we want to offend just for shits and giggles. -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits

On Wed, 02 Dec 2020 14:15:47 -0500, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

* Jim Henderson [12-02-20 14:04]:

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On Wed, 02 Dec 2020 11:40:45 -0500, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

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in fewer/other words, no one can achieve socially acceptable behavour. someone will *always* be offended and/or object.

The point is to learn from when offense is given (and to learn when offense isn't intended, just as much).

If you say something and someone tells you "that's offensive to me because ...." - the civil thing to do (and I would say 'correct') is to say "I'm sorry, I didn't mean to cause offense - this is what I meant" and then learn from it and don't do it again.

What's so hard about being considerate of other people? What's so hard about being kind?

there is nothing wrong with being kind until everything else leave and "being kind" is all that is left.

I disagree with the premise. There is no situation where "everything else [has left]" in a technical discussion.

so far "GIMP" and "Discord" have been mentioned as not being socially suitable (to some people). we can no long address anything about these packages or even provide them for download since their mere presence is deemed unsuitable by some people.

Sure. In the case of things that are outside our control, those things aren't going to get renamed. Being angry on the openSUSE MLs about that isn't going to accomplish anything.

direction and intent should be necessary for deeming something socially unacceptable, not using the words.

you must not wear your feelings on your shirt sleeves but accept that in most usage the speaker is not intending to HARM YOUR FEELINGS.

Right. "Being kind" also (to me) means "assume someone has the best intentions rather than the worst - until proven otherwise". Having been on the receiving end not terribly long ago of people assuming I had the worst possible intention (not wanting to reopen that discussion or those wounds by any means, just using it as an illustration) instead of asking me off-list was actually quite hurtful.

get over it, you choose what offends you, not i/me/us/we/... and we do not necessarily feel the same.

Yes and no. If someone tells you "this thing you're doing is offensive or hurtful to me", the proper thing to do is to accept that, acknowledge it, and don't do it again. When you're punching someone in the face and they ask you to stop, you don't say "I'm not punching you in the face" and keep doing it - unless you're an asshole. The same is true with words.

PERCEPTION IS *NOT* REALITY!

Yes and no. Something that someone in a leadership class said that really resonated with me was this: We don't see others as they are; we see them as we are. What they meant was this: If I say something and someone says "that's offensive", if I double down and say "no, it isn't", I'm doing that not because it isn't, but because I wouldn't take offense at it, based on my life's experiences. But someone else doesn't have my life experience. They have their own, and the things that shape who they are are different. So just because you wouldn't be offended if someone said that to you doesn't mean they won't be (or shouldn't be, or couldn't be) because their experiences are different than yours. And their experiences are just as valid for them as your experiences are for you when it comes to subjective interpretation. (Objective reality is something entirely different - whether something is offensive or not, though, is *not* objective - it is generally *entirely* subjective). Try to see others as they are, not as a mirror of you. (Not using the personal 'you' pronoun here, BTW - this is "generic 'you'"). -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits

On Thu, 03 Dec 2020 14:39:05 -0500, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

if: If someone tells you "this thing you're doing is offensive or hurtful to me", the proper thing to do is to accept that, acknowledge it, and don't do it again. happen _on_list_, it is not suitable traffic for the list. it should be private mail.

Well, yes and no. Something that happens repeatedly (either an individual ignoring the request or multiple people piling on) is better addressed in-list rather than privately. But I agree in principle with the idea of taking personal stuff off-list.

and for it to be really considered offensive, should be directed and have intent, other wise it is just a personal attribute of _one_ person and while the world should be considerate, everyone cannot *always* be accomodated.

Well, again, that's how you see the world. Others have different experiences that lead them to a different place. This is a subjective opinion of how something should be handled. -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits

On 03/12/2020 20.15, Jim Henderson wrote:

...

so far "GIMP" and "Discord" have been mentioned as not being socially suitable (to some people). we can no long address anything about these packages or even provide them for download since their mere presence is deemed unsuitable by some people. Sure. In the case of things that are outside our control, those things aren't going to get renamed. Being angry on the openSUSE MLs about that isn't going to accomplish anything.

I'm not angry about those packages or their names, and certainly I'm not asking for the names to be changed, or the packages to be voided. Hey, we we still resolve "http://rtfm.opensuse.org/" and I supported the name as a cute joke. In fact, it is the contrary, it disgusts me the name was "removed". That said, nobody should be disgusted because somebody declares their opinion that the name choice is idiotic. There is no ofense intended. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.1 (Legolas))

On 03/12/2020 20.54, Jim Henderson wrote:

On Thu, 03 Dec 2020 20:47:21 +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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On 03/12/2020 20.15, Jim Henderson wrote:

...

...

so far "GIMP" and "Discord" have been mentioned as not being socially suitable (to some people). we can no long address anything about these packages or even provide them for download since their mere presence is deemed unsuitable by some people. Sure. In the case of things that are outside our control, those things aren't going to get renamed. Being angry on the openSUSE MLs about that isn't going to accomplish anything.

I'm not angry about those packages or their names, and certainly I'm not asking for the names to be changed, or the packages to be voided. Hey, we we still resolve "http://rtfm.opensuse.org/" and I supported the name as a cute joke. In fact, it is the contrary, it disgusts me the name was "removed".

That said, nobody should be disgusted because somebody declares their opinion that the name choice is idiotic. There is no ofense intended.

Whether it's intended or not isn't really material. Whether it offended is.

And if it does, those with the responsibility of deciding "do we leave something that we've been told is offensive or do we change it" is ultimately up to them. But unless someone says "hey, you know what? That's actually offensive to me" - they're not likely to know.

Transparency. It's good for all of us.

Must be a cultural issue. In Spain saying that the name of an object is idiotic is not considered offensive. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.1 (Legolas))

On Thu, 03 Dec 2020 15:07:48 -0500, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

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Must be a cultural issue. In Spain saying that the name of an object is idiotic is not considered offensive.

again perception arives. everyone is against something and all cannot be accomodated. reality is a fact, exists and is NOT perceived. it is.

people need to (must) man up and don't sweat the small shit.

As I said to Carlos, having information from multiple points of view informs decisions about how to proceed better. "man up and don't sweat the small shit" does two things - (a) dismisses those who actually are affected as having an 'invalid' view of the world, reinforcing the idea that yours is the only one that matters, and (b) perpetuates things that are actively harmful through ignorance of the fact that things are harmful. -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits

On Thu, 03 Dec 2020 20:59:14 +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote:

Must be a cultural issue. In Spain saying that the name of an object is idiotic is not considered offensive.

It may be, but look at it this way: By having an open and transparent discussion about it, we've both learned something, and if either of us were in a position to do anything about it, we could bring that shared experience into our thought process about how to move forward. Everyone wins. -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits

On Thu, 03 Dec 2020 15:53:37 -0500, Felix Miata wrote:

Jim Henderson composed on 2020-12-03 19:54 (UTC):

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On Thu, 03 Dec 2020 20:47:21 +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

...

That said, nobody should be disgusted because somebody declares their opinion that the name choice is idiotic. There is no ofense intended.

...

Whether it's intended or not isn't really material. Whether it offended is.

I disagree. A right to not be offended would be in direct contradiction to a right to speak freely. Both cannot co-exist. On these opensuse mailing lists in particular, in recent decades in general elsewhere, I see a pattern which seems to me that people think a right to not be offended exists. In the USA at least, freedom to speak is an explicit constitutional right, openSUSE Guiding principles and tort law notwithstanding. People looking to be offended, and complain about it when it happens, need to grow some thicker skin.

The above in no wise contradicts being polite and helpful are courtesies everyone, and no less so here, should exercise.

It isn't about not saying "this is idiotic" if you really don't understand that it is offensive (for whatever reason). It's about understanding the impact we have on each other. (Were I in a joking mood, I might be inclined to say something like "any other view is idiotic" as a way of humorously making a point - but that would be inappropriate.) -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday, 2020-12-03 at 21:16 -0000, Jim Henderson wrote:

On Thu, 03 Dec 2020 21:08:29 +0000, Jim Henderson wrote:

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It isn't about not saying "this is idiotic" if you really don't understand that it is offensive (for whatever reason).

It's about understanding the impact we have on each other.

I should also have added that it's also about understanding your audience. Professional writers do this all the time when creating content - you consider your audience and (a) what's likely to be understood, and (b) what's likely to be problematic for them.

So now I know, for example, if I were writing documentation that was targeted at people in Spain, it would be completely appropriate to say "don't do this, because it's idiotic to do so" whereas for a more global audience, I might be inclined to use different language in order to appeal to a broader reader base.

Maybe not. Notice that I applied the term "idiotic" to an object, whereas you are doing so to an action by people. It is different. Subtle perhaps. But yes, you can find in written texts "don't do this stupid thing". Look, an historic case. I think you know about it. Nissan named, long ago, a car "pajero" (1), a term than in Spanish is offensive (masturbator). Obviously every one was commenting that the name (choice?) was idiotic. It is under freedom of speech or opinion to say that name is idiotic. The incident is not alone: Mazda Laputa (the whore). Of course it gave rise to many written comments. (1) <https://www.motorpasion.com/industria/nombres-de-coches-poco-afortunados-for... https://www.elmundo.es/motor/2016/02/23/56cc3a78268e3e87438b45e9.html - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iHoEARECADoWIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCX8pFmhwccm9iaW4ubGlz dGFzQHRlbGVmb25pY2EubmV0AAoJELUzGBxtjUfVX0gAn0COuuLyJRxbFfL/OWCu vfARdl/PAJ0a7zi/QjRg9RRV6dQFz5C3D76k1A== =FJ17 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

On Fri, 04 Dec 2020 23:08:15 +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote:

I forgot to ask, which was the point of mentioning those two cases.

How can I criticise those two obvious naming errors (on the Spain market) without being offensive?

I can not say «the name "Mazda Laputa" is idiotic» because it will be offensive. That is limiting liberty of expression and liberty to criticise. There is no way I can think of to express discontent with the name choice without risking offending the other party.

I think it is better to say that «the name "Mazda Laputa" is idiotic» and then the other side can justify the name choice or choose another.

Well, obviously, you can't. In fact, in the example I just wrote about, it was incredibly awkward for me to bring it up to my management for that very reason. I did so privately with the VP over the organization involved. And in so doing, I prefaced with "I have to bring up something that is offensive and uncomfortable". You set the stage for what's being discussed so you can have an open and honest discussion about it. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Saturday, 2020-12-05 at 20:10 -0000, Jim Henderson wrote:

On Fri, 04 Dec 2020 15:20:10 +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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On Thursday, 2020-12-03 at 21:16 -0000, Jim Henderson wrote:

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On Thu, 03 Dec 2020 21:08:29 +0000, Jim Henderson wrote:

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It isn't about not saying "this is idiotic" if you really don't understand that it is offensive (for whatever reason).

It's about understanding the impact we have on each other.

I should also have added that it's also about understanding your audience. Professional writers do this all the time when creating content - you consider your audience and (a) what's likely to be understood, and (b) what's likely to be problematic for them.

So now I know, for example, if I were writing documentation that was targeted at people in Spain, it would be completely appropriate to say "don't do this, because it's idiotic to do so" whereas for a more global audience, I might be inclined to use different language in order to appeal to a broader reader base.

Maybe not.

Notice that I applied the term "idiotic" to an object, whereas you are doing so to an action by people. It is different. Subtle perhaps. But yes, you can find in written texts "don't do this stupid thing".

You're not seeing the forest for the trees here (ie, you're nitpicking the particular example and missing the bigger picture).

And as someone who has done writing professionally, I can tell you that even with that example, yes, I would not use the word 'idiotic' in documentation because regardless of the usage, it's consider inflammatory and would be likely to turn the reader off of continuing to read the information.

...

Look, an historic case. I think you know about it.

Nissan named, long ago, a car "pajero" (1), a term than in Spanish is offensive (masturbator). Obviously every one was commenting that the name (choice?) was idiotic. It is under freedom of speech or opinion to say that name is idiotic.

The incident is not alone: Mazda Laputa (the whore). Of course it gave rise to many written comments.

And I think you'll find that those names aren't in use, likely because when they found out what the name meant in Spanish. A non-Spanish- speaking marketing person probably heard the word, thought "that sounds like a great word to use" without looking it up.

Oh, they did sell the car with that name in Spain :-D At least, according to google. Years ago. 2004? https://debates.coches.net/discussion/175633/laputa-de-mazda-y-el-moco-de-ni... I do not know how long they maintained those names, at some point they thought better. I just found that Laputa is a an Island in Gulliver travels. There are wikipedia articles on that car, but not in Spanish - however, apparently the article existed, because I found references and text copied from it. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazda_Laputa

I've long said that all marketing departments need a 'dirty old man' to take whatever terms they come up with and think of the worst way to use it.

:-D

I had to play that role once upon a time when an organization I worked for years ago created a program that abbreviated to "CNTS". I leave it as an exercise to the reader as to why I suggested this may not be the best idea in the world, and the name was thrown away (but for the non-English speaking audience who may somehow have missed it, add a vowel strategically in that to create a word that is generally considered pretty offensive to women).

Which is the perfect example, actually. The name was suggested, I said "hey, this is potentially offensive to an entire gender", and they said "oh, shit, you're right - we shouldn't do that".

And then they didn't.

Good :-) - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iHoEARECADoWIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCX80xqxwccm9iaW4ubGlz dGFzQHRlbGVmb25pY2EubmV0AAoJELUzGBxtjUfVHdAAoJadZk4QRlI4aYTulPFc /VbjEk/uAJ0TfKMmtr0RdEktw++IFuhY9mWkHA== =3S9Q -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

On Thu, 03 Dec 2020 22:20:24 +0100, Gerald Pfeifer wrote:

That does not mean we cannot disagree or argue or try to convince others, maybe help them understand something. Those I've been working with or for and those who reported to me likely will tell you I can do that quite a bit. ;-) I would, however, be quite surprised if they brought up growing a thicker skin in that context.

*How* we do things matters. As much as *what* we do.

Gerald

BINGO. That's what I'm trying to say. -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits

Am 4. Dezember 2020 21:20:06 schrieb Per Jessen :

Gerald, not at all. Thick skin can be useful when you are trying to integrate. Having "thick skin" simply means not taking everything at face value. Being punched in the face, sure, but if someone at the Stammtisch says "ach, du blöder Siech", it does not mean you have to respond in kind. Laugh if off and carry on.

Yes, and that exactly is the problem: This mailing list is not a semi-private meetup. It's a public conversation platform with lots of people not knowing each other. The only connecting point is the topic. Plus, this list is readable from "the outside" which makes it some kind of marketing tool. A first impression given by this project if you want to call it that. (Hence the name of the list.) That's why I consider neutral, on-topic conversations absolutely crucial. If we can't keep it that way the whole concept of this list doomed. Which has troublesome consequences for everything related. vinz.

Am 06.12.20 um 21:16 schrieb Per Jessen:

Hmm, while I cannot disagree with any of that (which is a little worrisome to me), it applies to every mailing list "out there". Presumably every forum and every IRC channel/too too. In my childhood in the 1970s, with no internet, it was called "life".

IOW, during our lives we all go to join new communities, football clubs, chess clubs, school classes, new companies, new mailing lists. Some will seem more receptive than others and receive/attract a different kind of people than others.

Yes, and all of these groups have it in their own hands how they will be recognized.

I am not convinced that openSUSE will necessarily "win" by being "neutral and on-topic".

That's not what I said. *This mailing list* will win (to use your phrasing) if we manage to keep the conversations neutral and on-topic.

Sometimes expressing ones opinion in a direct and open fashion is > much better, especially when trying to use a foreign language.

Oh, and I'm convinced that it's the exact opposite: we all need to be really careful when using a foreign language to talk to people with yet another native language. vinz.

* Vinzenz Vietzke [12-04-20 08:45]:

Am 03.12.20 um 21:53 schrieb Felix Miata:

...

People looking to be offended, and complain about it when it happens, need to grow some thicker skin.

I disagree that there are people in this community that are "looking to be offended". And I strongly hope you're not placing initiators of this discussion into that category. This would diminish their cause massively and unfairly.

you have quoted out-of-context and considerably altered the conveyed meaning. <quote> A right to not be offended would be in direct contradiction to a right to speak freely. Both cannot co-exist. On these opensuse mailing lists in particular, in recent decades in general elsewhere, I see a pattern which seems to me that people think a right to not be offended exists. In the USA at least, freedom to speak is an explicit constitutional right, openSUSE Guiding principles and tort law notwithstanding. People looking to be offended, and complain about it when it happens, need to grow some thicker skin. </quote> he definitely does not say that people in "this community" are "looking to be offended", but that "people who are looking to be offended" ... very easy for one to become "offended" without just cause. one will never satisfy everyone. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode

Felix Miata wrote:

Jim Henderson composed on 2020-12-03 19:54 (UTC):

...

On Thu, 03 Dec 2020 20:47:21 +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

...

That said, nobody should be disgusted because somebody declares their opinion that the name choice is idiotic. There is no ofense intended.

...

Whether it's intended or not isn't really material. Whether it offended is.

I disagree. A right to not be offended would be in direct contradiction to a right to speak freely. Both cannot co-exist.

+1

People looking to be offended, and complain about it when it happens, need to grow some thicker skin.

+1 Well said, Felix. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (1.2°C) Member, openSUSE Heroes

Jim Henderson wrote:

On Fri, 04 Dec 2020 21:11:06 +0100, Per Jessen wrote:

...

Felix Miata wrote:

...

Jim Henderson composed on 2020-12-03 19:54 (UTC):

...

On Thu, 03 Dec 2020 20:47:21 +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

...

That said, nobody should be disgusted because somebody declares their opinion that the name choice is idiotic. There is no ofense intended.

...

Whether it's intended or not isn't really material. Whether it offended is.

I disagree. A right to not be offended would be in direct contradiction to a right to speak freely. Both cannot co-exist.

+1

Sure, you *can* speak freely, but it doesn't mean that you always *should*. That's the point.

Being considerate of others is a responsibility that comes with the right of being able to speak freely. Because other people matter, too.

Absolutely. IMHO, it applies to speakers and listeners both.

I am getting so sick of living in a world where nobody gives a damn about how they affect other people.

I cannot speak for the world you are living in, as little as you can for the world I am living in. I don't know if either is better or worse, but that is the whole point, we all live in different worlds. My standards do not always correspond to your standards. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (1.3°C) Member, openSUSE Heroes

Jim Henderson wrote:

On Wed, 02 Dec 2020 14:15:47 -0500, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

direction and intent should be necessary for deeming something socially unacceptable, not using the words.

you must not wear your feelings on your shirt sleeves but accept that in most usage the speaker is not intending to HARM YOUR FEELINGS.

Right. "Being kind" also (to me) means "assume someone has the best intentions rather than the worst - until proven otherwise".

To me, the suggestion "be kind" implies "for he knows not any better" (I sense biblical undertones). It does not really assume much about anyone's intentions.

...

get over it, you choose what offends you, not i/me/us/we/... and we do not necessarily feel the same.

Yes and no. If someone tells you "this thing you're doing is offensive or hurtful to me", the proper thing to do is to accept that, acknowledge it, and don't do it again.

While I cannot entirely disagree with that idea, the idea of someone actually telling me "this thing you're doing is offensive or hurtful to me" - that is pretty offensive or hurtful to me. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (0.4°C) Member, openSUSE Heroes

Jim Henderson wrote:

...

...

...

get over it, you choose what offends you, not i/me/us/we/... and we do not necessarily feel the same.

Yes and no. If someone tells you "this thing you're doing is offensive or hurtful to me", the proper thing to do is to accept that, acknowledge it, and don't do it again.

While I cannot entirely disagree with that idea, the idea of someone actually telling me "this thing you're doing is offensive or hurtful to me" - that is pretty offensive or hurtful to me.

Um, I don't see how that's realistically possible. If someone says "please stop doing this thing that is hurtful to me", they are sharing their experience with you and asking that you stop metaphorically punching them in the face.

To me that is a criticism of my use of the language, and if we are not native speakers, either of our use could be right. I.e. I might be using it wrongly and they might be understanding it wrongly. I vote more thick skin for everyone. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (1.4°C) Member, openSUSE Heroes

On Wed, Dec 02, 2020 at 07:02:20PM -0000, Jim Henderson wrote:

If you say something and someone tells you "that's offensive to me because ...." - the civil thing to do (and I would say 'correct') is to say "I'm sorry, I didn't mean to cause offense - this is what I meant" and then learn from it and don't do it again.

I cannot possibly agree with such requirement stated this absolutely general way which does not admit any exception. There is a lot of people who could be offended by being told e.g. - that they did something wrong - that they are wrong - that they made a mistake - that they should read the documentation Do you really want to say that whenever someone feels offended by one of these, we should stop telling them these things even if we are right? The fact that someone is offended by something does not automatically mean that they are right and that the thing is wrong and should not happen again. As a thought experiment, just imagine someone would tell you he is offended by your statement I quoted above because it denies him the right to decide if he really did something wrong or if the response is inadequate. (Or any other reason, actually, you don't seem to give the accused "offender" any right to validate the reason.) Would you happily apologize for it and refrain from repeating it ever again? Michal Kubecek

On Fri, Dec 04, 2020 at 04:46:43AM -0000, Jim Henderson wrote:

On Thu, 03 Dec 2020 22:41:40 +0100, Michal Kubecek wrote:

...

On Wed, Dec 02, 2020 at 07:02:20PM -0000, Jim Henderson wrote:

...

If you say something and someone tells you "that's offensive to me because ...." - the civil thing to do (and I would say 'correct') is to say "I'm sorry, I didn't mean to cause offense - this is what I meant" and then learn from it and don't do it again.

I cannot possibly agree with such requirement stated this absolutely general way which does not admit any exception. There is a lot of people who could be offended by being told e.g.

- that they did something wrong - that they are wrong - that they made a mistake - that they should read the documentation

There are good ways to tell someone that they did something wrong or that they are wrong without saying they're stupid.

...

Do you really want to say that whenever someone feels offended by one of these, we should stop telling them these things even if we are right?

That's not what I'm saying at all.

But if someone pushes back and says "you called me an idiot, and that's offensive", maybe take a look at the situation and consider that perhaps engaging in an ad hominem attack was the wrong way of expressing that they had made an error.

...

The fact that someone is offended by something does not automatically mean that they are right and that the thing is wrong and should not happen again.

Of course it doesn't. I would never suggest that it does.

...

As a thought experiment, just imagine someone would tell you he is offended by your statement I quoted above because it denies him the right to decide if he really did something wrong or if the response is inadequate. (Or any other reason, actually, you don't seem to give the accused "offender" any right to validate the reason.) Would you happily apologize for it and refrain from repeating it ever again?

This is getting silly. It should be pretty clear that I'm not talking about things that are factually incorrect, or dangerously so.

But if I were to say "Michal, you're an idiot for thinking that that's what I meant" - I'd be causing you offense for no good reason - and I'd be shutting down the discussion, which doesn't benefit anyone.

I'm talking about approaching the discussion with kindness first. Otherwise, you tell the person you're discussing things with that they should stop listening to you.

I'm sure that's not your intention (impersonal "your" there - I don't mean "you" personally here - talking in general terms about the person who is causing offense).

Summed up, you did not actually mean what you wrote. While that's a relief for me (that statement was really scary), you now say essentially the same as me and others you argued with: when someone tells you he is offended by what you said or did, you have right to assess if his response makes sense to you and, based on that, decide if and how you act upon it. Just one important note: being offended has little to do with facts or reason, it's an emotional reaction. Which is why even if I'm not denying the "right to be offended", I will always fight for it to be balanced by right to say "well, that's your problem". Michal Kubecek

* Jim Henderson [12-05-20 14:57]:

On Fri, 04 Dec 2020 09:50:53 +0100, Michal Kubecek wrote:

...

Summed up, you did not actually mean what you wrote.

I meant what I wrote, but our discussion has clarified it.

...

While that's a relief for me (that statement was really scary), you now say essentially the same as me and others you argued with: when someone tells you he is offended by what you said or did, you have right to assess if his response makes sense to you and, based on that, decide if and how you act upon it.

Well, of course. But if, for example, a trans person says they prefer that you not call them "he" or "she" and you refuse, you are actively *knowingly* being offensive - because you are denying them their right to self-identify who they are and insisting that you know better than they do who they are.

That doesn't mean you have to stop. But it does mean that you're being an asshole if you don't stop. And on a public mailing list, you're being an asshole in public.

...

Just one important note: being offended has little to do with facts or reason, it's an emotional reaction. Which is why even if I'm not denying the "right to be offended", I will always fight for it to be balanced by right to say "well, that's your problem".

Sure, offense is an emotional reaction. Usually based on a lifetime of experience and how people who actively go out of their way to cause offense because they get kicks out of it.

*****************

Causing someone pain for kicks and then laughing about it is simply not acceptable behavior.

that *would* qualify as directed and intended, ie: abusive forcing someone to identify a man as ??not-a-man?? or xx, is exactly, "forcing" and I might take offense at that. which is correct? not a request for comment! -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode

Jim Henderson wrote:

On Wed, 02 Dec 2020 11:40:45 -0500, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

in fewer/other words, no one can achieve socially acceptable behavour. someone will *always* be offended and/or object.

The point is to learn from when offense is given (and to learn when offense isn't intended, just as much).

If you say something and someone tells you "that's offensive to me because ...." - the civil thing to do (and I would say 'correct') is to say "I'm sorry, I didn't mean to cause offense - this is what I meant" and then learn from it and don't do it again.

What's so hard about being considerate of other people? What's so hard about being kind?

Cultures. We all have them, some of us more than one, but they differ. I teach my son not to use 'WTF' in text because I consider it to be nekulturny, but the F-word is not generally considered offensive in German-speaking Switzerland. The issue is perhaps how often people actually care or understand to say "that's offensive to me because ...." -- Per Jessen, Zürich (0.2°C) Member, openSUSE Heroes

* Jim Henderson [12-05-20 15:03]:

On Fri, 04 Dec 2020 20:51:24 +0100, Per Jessen wrote:

...

Jim Henderson wrote:

...

On Wed, 02 Dec 2020 11:40:45 -0500, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

in fewer/other words, no one can achieve socially acceptable behavour. someone will *always* be offended and/or object.

The point is to learn from when offense is given (and to learn when offense isn't intended, just as much).

If you say something and someone tells you "that's offensive to me because ...." - the civil thing to do (and I would say 'correct') is to say "I'm sorry, I didn't mean to cause offense - this is what I meant" and then learn from it and don't do it again.

What's so hard about being considerate of other people? What's so hard about being kind?

Cultures. We all have them, some of us more than one, but they differ.

They differ, but I rarely see cultures where being actively offensive to people is considered acceptable normal behavior. I see cultures where being direct is considered kind, but there's a pretty wide gap between being direct and being offensive - and it is possible to be direct without being offensive.

...

I teach my son not to use 'WTF' in text because I consider it to be nekulturny, but the F-word is not generally considered offensive in German-speaking Switzerland.

The issue is perhaps how often people actually care or understand to say "that's offensive to me because ...."

For those who are in marginalized communities and groups, having to teach the 101-level "here's why you're being offensive" gets old. Especially in marginalized communities who have actively made a lot of noise about why certain behaviors are generally considered offensive.

and in my book, requesting special treatment. noise is noise. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode

Am So, 6. Dez, 2020 um 7:47 P. M. schrieb Per Jessen :

...

Especially in marginalized communities who have actively made a lot of noise about why certain behaviors are generally considered offensive.

Jim, I have to ask, who are these "marginalized communities" ? Do we have some of them here, in openSUSE, on this or other lists?

We have a bunch, pretty much everywhere in the project, even on the board ;) LCP [Stasiek] https://lcp.world

Dne středa 2. prosince 2020 17:27:19 CET, Neal Gompa napsal(a):

On Wed, Dec 2, 2020 at 11:01 AM Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

* Petr Tesarik [12-02-20 07:54]:

...

On Wed, 02 Dec 2020 08:39:56 +0100 Martin Pluskal wrote:

...

On Sun, 2020-11-29 at 15:20 -0500, Felix Miata wrote:

...

Per Jessen composed on 2020-11-29 20:45 (UTC+0100):

this is beginning to sound an awful lot like the continual bickering about the name/acronym "GIMP".

This whole subthread has basically proven why GIMP should be renamed.

Could You explain?

...

people are going to have to just "man up" and wear thicker skin because there is always going to be something that offends one an not another. if the end in sight is to never "offend" "anyone", speach and the written word will disappear.

Agreed.

How are you the arbiter of what people should "man up" for? Generally, the collective consciousness of society decides that. Over the past several decades, as society has evolved, things that were considered okay have become not okay, and that's how it works as society evolves its perception of itself.

Well, of course, society does develop. But it's not so straightforward as You can see all around the world. If playing advocatus diaboli for a second, how do You know the direction You described is the correct one?

In general, a modern society prioritizes inclusiveness in order to benefit from the potential valuable output from a larger, more diverse group of people. This has been true in basically all fields and industries.

Yes, but IMHO the doors are opened here. I don't really see what's Your problem.

...

deliberate and directed should be the only criteria! unintentional should be overlooked, and discussion is NOT necessary.

Agreed.

What are you saying here? I'm confused on what your point is. My reading of this statement indicates that we are not allowed to be proactive about continually improving the Project, and must only react to improve in specific circumstances.

I don't read it like that. How did You came to that conclusion, please?

...

perception does not equal reality!

Perception *is* reality, but it doesn't equal it. Reality for each individual is shaped by their perceptions.

It's bit playing with words, I'm not sure if helpful, but from daily perspective of most of us (unless we are sailors or pilots or so) is that the Earth is flat. But this perception is clearly wrong. Do You see the point?

Failure to understand that is how you wind up being non-inclusive.

Not necessarily. As bit extreme corner-case, *if* someone's perception is completely out of reality (for any reason), I don't see any reason to reflect it, otherwise *everyone else* will sooner or later loose contact with reality.

And as a Free Software project, we *need* people to feel welcome and able to contribute however they can to the success of the Project and its deliverables.

Of course. But You can never ever please everyone. -- Vojtěch Zeisek https://trapa.cz/ Komunita openSUSE GNU/Linuxu Community of the openSUSE GNU/Linux https://www.opensuse.org/

On Fri, 04 Dec 2020 20:34:51 +0100, Per Jessen wrote:

Neal Gompa wrote:

...

On Wed, Dec 2, 2020 at 11:01 AM Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

this is beginning to sound an awful lot like the continual bickering about the name/acronym "GIMP".

This whole subthread has basically proven why GIMP should be renamed.

I guess I am little late to the game, but would you care to elaborate on that? I may not be a native English speaker, but is wrong with GIMP ?

See definition 3 at https://www.dictionary.com/browse/gimp -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits

On Sat, 05 Dec 2020 19:46:48 -0500, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

* Jim Henderson [12-05-20 15:05]:

...

On Fri, 04 Dec 2020 20:34:51 +0100, Per Jessen wrote:

...

Neal Gompa wrote:

...

On Wed, Dec 2, 2020 at 11:01 AM Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

this is beginning to sound an awful lot like the continual bickering about the name/acronym "GIMP".

This whole subthread has basically proven why GIMP should be renamed.

I guess I am little late to the game, but would you care to elaborate on that? I may not be a native English speaker, but is wrong with GIMP ?

See definition 3 at https://www.dictionary.com/browse/gimp

but that is only in English, there are many thing offensive in other languages that you know nothing about.

Yes, and if someone says "hey, this Spanish word that you're saying means something really rude and offensive" - I'm going to respect their culture and stop using it. Because that's how one is kind in an international community. -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits

Jim Henderson wrote:

On Fri, 04 Dec 2020 20:34:51 +0100, Per Jessen wrote:

...

Neal Gompa wrote:

...

On Wed, Dec 2, 2020 at 11:01 AM Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

this is beginning to sound an awful lot like the continual bickering about the name/acronym "GIMP".

This whole subthread has basically proven why GIMP should be renamed.

I guess I am little late to the game, but would you care to elaborate on that? I may not be a native English speaker, but is wrong with GIMP ?

See definition 3 at https://www.dictionary.com/browse/gimp

An Americanism dating back about a hundred years ??? I guess that explains why nobody cares much. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (1.3°C) Member, openSUSE Heroes

On Sun, 06 Dec 2020 13:39:06 -0500, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

it is back to "perception". I am American, understand the negative usage of "gimp" which is definitely not "GIMP" and understand that the title/name of the graphic application is not intended to be derogatory, and there is that term "intended", I do not find it undesirable.

Context is important. I was having a conversation with coworkers, and brought up the BBC TV Programme "Mock the Week". That has a decidedly different meaning from what was heard, which was "Mock the Weak". A quick explanation avoided a problem. Simple. -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits

On Sun, 06 Dec 2020 16:47:56 -0500, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

* Jim Henderson [12-06-20 16:33]:

...

On Sun, 06 Dec 2020 13:39:06 -0500, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

it is back to "perception". I am American, understand the negative usage of "gimp" which is definitely not "GIMP" and understand that the title/name of the graphic application is not intended to be derogatory, and there is that term "intended", I do not find it undesirable.

Context is important.

I was having a conversation with coworkers, and brought up the BBC TV Programme "Mock the Week".

That has a decidedly different meaning from what was heard, which was "Mock the Weak".

A quick explanation avoided a problem. Simple.

get off the fence or quit changing horses.

you just proposed the name was not acceptable. this is not a debate, it is a duscussion and not about examples of "how you would do it" in order to avoid taking a clear stand.

My stand is pretty clear, Patrick. I'm not on the fence, and I'm not changing horses. My example is intended to illustrate how to deal with a situation where offense is unintentionally given - and how the clarification actually resolved the situation. But whatever, I'm done with you. You want to find ways to be offended at the idea that treating others with respect and kindness is a bad thing? Go for it. -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits

It seems to me this conversation aught to be continued off ML. David Mulder Labs Software Engineer, Samba SUSE 1800 Novell Place Provo, UT 84606 (P)+1 801.861.6571 dmulder@suse.com http://www.suse.com

* Jim Henderson [12-06-20 16:17]:

On Sun, 06 Dec 2020 19:24:08 +0100, Per Jessen wrote:

...

An Americanism dating back about a hundred years ??? I guess that explains why nobody cares much.

That's its first usage, not how long it's been since it's been used.

Some people still use it actively today.

But that's kinda the point - culturally, it's a word that we don't use here unless we're trying to be offensive.

so you must accept that the people who provided the name and the people that *use* the name intend no disrespect or offense and accept it as that. that is what give-and-take is about, having understand in both directions. it is not all about you and your feelings, it is also about the rest of us and our feelings.

So, by "nobody cares much" you're talking about 300 million people (give or take) who constitute "nobody" - at a minimum.

I fail to see a point here. are you disrespecting 300 million people (give or take) by labeling them? see that I might take your statement in a manner different than your "intent"? grow a thicker skin. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode

* Gryffus [12-03-20 15:31]:

On Wed, Dec 2, 2020 at 11:01 AM Patrick Shanahan wrote:

<snip>

...

perception does not equal reality!

Actually, most probably perception creates reality. :)

only if you redefine "reality". reality *is*, perception is only what it appears "to you". perception != reality by definition perception != reality

http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20170215-the-strange-link-between-the-human-m...

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/10/quantum-experiment-space-confirms-re...

-- Gfs

Sent from my BlackBerry smartphone _______________________________________________ openSUSE Project mailing list -- project@lists.opensuse.org To unsubscribe, email project-leave@lists.opensuse.org List Netiquette: https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Mailing_list_netiquette List Archives: https://lists.opensuse.org/archives/list/project@lists.opensuse.org

-- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode

On Wed, 2 Dec 2020 18:30:03 +0100 "Carlos E. R." wrote:

On 02/12/2020 08.39, Martin Pluskal wrote:

...

On Sun, 2020-11-29 at 15:20 -0500, Felix Miata wrote: [...] [...] [...] Hi

Speaking of healthy environment on our mailing list - I would say that calling whatever tool/project "idiotic" is not really a way to go ...

I would think that is wearing too thin a skin.

Yes, I also find the name "discord" sufficiently /unattractive/ to not try the thing. I could have said "repulsive", but you would consider that offensive, perhaps so I did not say it.

So you would limit the limit the liberty of speech to block opinions?

Before anyone else feels their "free speech" being attacked let me remind the list that Discord is a perfectly fine tool widely used by openSUSE users and members and that this conversation is happening in the main openSUSE Mailing list aka openSUSE Project, not in your living room. It is not just offtopic but also inappropriate, especially when the reasons given are really just about the name and not about constructive criticism. Keep in mind that we have developers and packagers who may be involved with Discord watching this list. -- Maurizio Galli (m4u9) Xfce Team https://en.opensuse.org/Portal:Xfce

On 02/12/2020 19.02, Knurpht-openSUSE wrote:

Op woensdag 2 december 2020 18:54:19 CET schreef Maurizio Galli:

...

On Wed, 2 Dec 2020 18:30:03 +0100

"Carlos E. R." wrote:

...

On 02/12/2020 08.39, Martin Pluskal wrote:

...

On Sun, 2020-11-29 at 15:20 -0500, Felix Miata wrote: [...] [...] [...]

...

Hi

Speaking of healthy environment on our mailing list - I would say that calling whatever tool/project "idiotic" is not really a way to go ...

I would think that is wearing too thin a skin.

Yes, I also find the name "discord" sufficiently /unattractive/ to not try the thing. I could have said "repulsive", but you would consider that offensive, perhaps so I did not say it.

So you would limit the limit the liberty of speech to block opinions?

Before anyone else feels their "free speech" being attacked let me remind the list that Discord is a perfectly fine tool widely used by openSUSE users and members and that this conversation is happening in the main openSUSE Mailing list aka openSUSE Project, not in your living room.

It is not just offtopic but also inappropriate, especially when the reasons given are really just about the name and not about constructive criticism.

Keep in mind that we have developers and packagers who may be involved with Discord watching this list.

IMHO we've seen enough proof on this thread alone, that Neal has a valid point.

I do not agree. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)

On 2020/12/02 10:07, Carlos E. R. wrote:

On 02/12/2020 18.54, Maurizio Galli wrote:

...

Keep in mind that we have developers and packagers who may be involved with Discord watching this list.

I'm absolutely sure that it is a fine tool, I have no doubts about it.

--- Discord supports its name. I used it for 2-3 years by requirement in line with a game I was playing. It is an ideal environment to support personal _ir_responsibility and create multiple fiefdoms/cliques where each forum owner gets to decide on a regular basis what you are allowed to say and ensure that any "history" is edited and updated to reflect their view. If you join one of their forums (called a 'server') the first thing you may note is you have no way to keep a record of what you wrote and what you were responding to, other than by making a screen shot of each page of conversation. There is no logging option and forum owners can selectively delete content from any channel in their forum (server). Also, anyone can go back and edit any post they've ever made and selectively delete posts counter to the picture you want to create. I went through situations where agreements that were made, later were updated so original agreements disappeared, or were slanted to create a different view. If you lose access to a "forum", you very often lose the ability to communicate to anyone else on that forum unless you were friends with them before you joined that forum. Communication is often restricted so that you cannot send a message to someone who doesn't share a forum with you or hasn't specified you as a friend. Thing is, if you are on a group forum for months or years, you meet lots of people. You have little reason to selectively add all those people as 'friends' as it give you no extra communication options -- you can send private messages to anyone who is on a forum that you are also a member of. But if you leave a forum -- often you are removed from access, and you no longer can send messages of any sort to those you used to talk to if that forum was your only common-point with them. So in the game I played, you had clans -- and nearly all clans required you to also sign up for their discord as it would be used for all clan activities. It actually comes across a bit odd if someone additionally sends a friend request because if you share a forum with them, it gives you no further communication options. While it discord supplies the ability to coordinate people on different schedules, it's not like email where you have a record of what was sent to you or what you said. Also lacking is a good search interface -- it has searching, but it really lacks flexibility. In addition to text, pictures and media being supported 'inline', some channels are voice channels where everyone is talking in the same group (not bad for multi-user games where you coordinate group activities online). But the ability to edit history and posts, and the lack of any logging feature, as well as defaults that tend to make it easy to "shun" or "ghost" people you don't like anymore, make it a poor platform for doing anything' meaningful. Posts like this one composed of multiple paragraphs are considered a "wall of text", and the platform itself forces you to break apart longer posts into a series of 1.5-2K chunks. So it isn't really meant for anything other than fluff.

But its choice of name is enough to deter me from trying. I can not say the name choice as idiotic, because you will censorship me.

--- Simple rule to go by -- stick to facts and don't use adjectives.

The name suggests to me a place where arguments take place constantly. Is that better choice of words?

--- Yeah, such was often the case.

On 2020/12/04 16:32, Stasiek Michalski wrote:

Am Fr, 4. Dez, 2020 um 4:02 P. M. schrieb L A Walsh :

...

On 2020/12/02 10:07, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

On 02/12/2020 18.54, Maurizio Galli wrote:

...

Keep in mind that we have developers and packagers who may be involved with Discord watching this list.

I'm absolutely sure that it is a fine tool, I have no doubts about it.

--- Discord supports its name. I used it for 2-3 years by requirement in line with a game I was playing. It is an ideal environment to support personal _ir_responsibility and create multiple fiefdoms/cliques where each forum owner gets to decide on a regular basis what you are allowed to say and ensure that any "history" is edited and updated to reflect their view.

If you join one of their forums (called a 'server') the first thing you may note is you have no way to keep a record of what you wrote and what you were responding to, other than by making a screen shot of each page of conversation.

There is no logging option and forum owners can selectively delete content from any channel in their forum (server). I went through situations where agreements that were made, later were updated so original agreements disappeared, or were slanted to create a different view.

If you come to discord for the purpose of having archives of conversations from years back, you are probably using it wrong. Consider it a live conversation between people, you wouldn't just record every conversation you ever had on tape in real life (at least I hope not).

I have no issue with there being no written record of voice channels. But we are talking about planning sessions for runs that are to last over a period of a few months to a year or more. Links to diagrams of who is doing what and who is in what "run-group" (out of maybe 1-6 active run groups depending on group) were usually kept current. Some channels maintained 10-20 pins mixed into the conversation where FAQ's were addressed as questions came up in conversation, they'd bookmark some where they wanted to add the answer to the list of important items. The channels automatically "archive" postings going back years unless cleaned out -- so a conversation that occurred 3-4 weeks before, would be unlikely to be pruned. It's not just a chat client, its often billed as providing support for teams developing projects.

I make sure to add people I expect to want to communicate with after me or they leave the server as friends for that reason. === That's nice. As these were game clans, I was looking for family type clans for a long-term relation. Some of the clans had been around for 4-5 years since the game went live. Unfortunately, that also meant that they often would have core groups that originally met in real-life at work or school.

It's not like people can't just leave of their own volition, so it's always better to have reassurance you can message them later.

Since many were there before the game, they already had other communication methods in place. Those leaving a group usually would be going to a new group because of issues.

You can actually also disable receiving messages from non-friends even if you share a server, so it really depends on what the person wants to see in their DMs.

I saw that used, and that's fine. IF people don't want to talk to you, that's their issue. However, the bit of no communication from "unrelated"'s, is/was sold as a way to reduce fishing and malware attempts, so many set it up as a default. Since you are also running with these folks and wanting a more permanent group to run with, the idea that you'd suddenly lose contact with everyone seems a bit of a distant possibility. So often adding group members after you joined might be seen as the first step to poaching people away. The groups and people were competitive in the game.

...

So in the game I played, you had clans -- and nearly all clans required you to also sign up for their discord as it would be used for all clan activities. It actually comes across a bit odd if someone additionally sends a friend request because if you share a forum with them, it gives you no further communication options.

While it discord supplies the ability to coordinate people on different schedules, it's not like email where you have a record of what was sent to you or what you said.

--- Except that what you say _can_ be archived and kept as others wish to. It's the disparate treatment given out to 'in groups' vs. out with many of the children there playing games in game, like ignoring you when they organized group events.

...

Also lacking is a good search interface -- it has >> searching, but it really lacks flexibility.

I recommend the inbox in the top right of the screen, you can see all of mentions of you, which is handy.

That's the search box that lack flexibility. If what you are looking for didnt' mention you, and you don't remember who posted it, you can't even do wildcard searching for text.

I have never experienced the search lacking flexibility, it allows you to search by pretty much every piece of metadata in a message.

But not by the data itself. I usually remember what was "said" in a situation, but may know none of the metadata. Not being able to search through content is very limiting for those who remember what was said but maybe not who said it or when.

We used that for a few game nights in the past on the openSUSE server,

You are one of those that had a group before you came to your game. For established groups, it can be fine, but for people who've never been in such a group, it's easily abused. In one group, besides being thought to be under 13, due to a voice session with new SW, I found myself with a bunch of Christian-right guys who had recently graduated who often expressed elitist ideas about how the group should be run, and didn't want to hear other view. When a new dungeon came out, I was finally kicked for wanting to go check it out before they had a chance to see pros going through in a video so they could memorize the mech's first. They said I wass too pushy/ argumentative (because I didn't necessarily agree with their politics or want to participate in "griefing" others.

...

But the ability to edit history and posts, and the lack of any logging feature, as well as defaults that tend to make it easy to "shun" or "ghost" people you don't like anymore, make it a poor platform for doing anything' meaningful. Posts like this one composed of multiple paragraphs are considered a "wall of text", and the platform itself forces you to break apart longer posts into a series of 1.5-2K chunks. So it isn't really meant for anything other than fluff.

Well, it's an instant messenger, and this is a standard fare with instant messengers.

Since when to instant messengers support instructional videos you should watch? Pictures? Screenshots? Posted schedules with people parts in upcoming events.... It's very much like a forum -- but no permanent archive and one that can be selectively pruned. It's certainly not a forum or a mailing list, it's

used for instant communication instead of deliberate multi-paragraph letters.

That's why people would webdocs (pictures, movies, spreadsheets, diagrams.. etc? Also, it's very much non-instant except for the voice-channels when people did runs together. Voice is instant. Talking in-depth about tactics and how to improve isn't what I would call "chat".

It's not for everyone, I know plenty of people for whom even IRC is a wild concept to this day ;)

At least you can get a log of that. And those who liked it most were friends with their circle before they got on discord. You and they would have a different view of what is useful. -l

Stasiek Michalski wrote:

If you come to discord for the purpose of having archives of conversations from years back, you are probably using it wrong. Consider it a live conversation between people, you wouldn't just record every conversation you ever had on tape in real life (at least I hope not).

Yeah, that is my impression too, it's IRC with eye-candy. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (1.3°C) Member, openSUSE Heroes

On 12/3/20 4:37 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

On 02/12/2020 18.54, Maurizio Galli wrote:

...

On Wed, 2 Dec 2020 18:30:03 +0100 "Carlos E. R." <> wrote:

...

On 02/12/2020 08.39, Martin Pluskal wrote:

...

On Sun, 2020-11-29 at 15:20 -0500, Felix Miata wrote: [...] [...] [...] Hi

Speaking of healthy environment on our mailing list - I would say that calling whatever tool/project "idiotic" is not really a way to go ...

I would think that is wearing too thin a skin.

Yes, I also find the name "discord" sufficiently /unattractive/ to not try the thing. I could have said "repulsive", but you would consider that offensive, perhaps so I did not say it.

So you would limit the limit the liberty of speech to block opinions?

Before anyone else feels their "free speech" being attacked let me remind the list that Discord is a perfectly fine tool widely used by openSUSE users and members and that this conversation is happening in the main openSUSE Mailing list aka openSUSE Project, not in your living room.

It is not just offtopic but also inappropriate, especially when the reasons given are really just about the name and not about constructive criticism.

Keep in mind that we have developers and packagers who may be involved with Discord watching this list.

I'm absolutely sure that it is a fine tool, I have no doubts about it. But its choice of name is enough to deter me from trying. I can not say the name choice as idiotic, because you will censorship me.

The name suggests to me a place where arguments take place constantly. Is that better choice of words?

How would you have me express the idea that I find the name, er... unattractive (as I am not allowed to say repelling).

English is not my first language, so sometimes my choice of words differs.

Yeah, here as an Aussie i'd translate Discord to "Robust Conversation" ie the idea that 2 or more people may have a discussion around differing views of a certain idea in "good faith" ie some way thats not abusive, overly aggressive or argumentative. Maybe also in a way that could be considered pub banter. In the end all people could walk away not necessarily with a changed mind but with a better understanding of why people think they way they do or believe the things they do. In my opinion the world probably needs much more of this. -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 I apologise for not bottom posting or for that matter quoting anything at all but I think everyone knows what this thread is about now. I have no wish to point fingers as, being an Asperger's sufferer, I am far from perfect from a social interaction aspect but it seems that this thread is starting to get a little heated and bordering on the verge of personal attacks. I am not trying to tell anyone what they should or shouldn't do or what they should or shouldn't say as I am well aware that what is considered acceptable ways to speak to someone varies from one culture to another but I do think that maybe people should try and sit back for a second before hitting the send button and consider whether they would say what they are writing directly to someone's face and whether it is acceptable behaviour. I know I haven't contributed much to either the mailing list or the project in general in many ways so feel free to ignore this email but I am hoping that this may highlight what this looks like from a point of view of someone from the outside who could well be looking at this on an archive while trying to consider if they consider openSUSE to be a worthwhile recipient of there time and effort. Cheers Robin -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: ProtonMail wsFmBAEBCAAQBQJfx+j5CRCfBMG52iOh3wAKCRCfBMG52iOh3yMmEACVbmZX ApLagXeXIY/kTm+vI5GjEYWLEd8WeGVYfMVLChoW2i/TtHpitTOeFb2/0+2v FU2+X3BdP92xDQSBKfTm+GHv/YUFdAbiZDyNszFvGRfwDn4gziN/NqIjAM0+ O0SxahePBE2S60jPfBoJuPeCxHuC2d/ajvwrfTNxs6+ZGdM4uNfHxtuWL8MV iFqc0dnlf3pgIITRMWUA319OgmUHbmjLhtHZj+u5fDp6NRr1D6cSlWRsIjZh xUjHq7TLaxKsZ6FYj+fvjRhtlRfEh/eqBPb6VP7fKC+ANEKF5+jCRMRvxBK6 MjH1WwbamG17P6b4omPCEp9T/DWGzHFUNBSfGmaLHZq9eT0ry5buNJhIN96r RrSoSJ6NiXYgpjpbPslVl65JgODziFmiMp5xhbl5/t+SyW9p5EXcG/CWX+n2 4OnDU2JVJ+zrXceMUxbwlpTMXnjifRqccYtF08fNugYTAjsIwhMuiAQEgVrP 9VLEmKvsrIBQf751JTxePr7QyDir17JG2a0ziZe8qWCiIDvtvQksYXAMky5I otScAJjW9atrXjcgOdfJWu3k/1GJO70bdfbIjBRFYfi3v8L1wcVkJUxRfmlS DJh9Io30fm+m2GBaAslxXQ17M2hw+0xNtOeMBIWFbvKPoCjg3GdyGp8HXBCI IcW0k6Zj4Tf6FdeWpg== =5qo9 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

On 02/12/2020 20.20, Robin Shepheard wrote:

I apologise for not bottom posting or for that matter quoting anything at all but I think everyone knows what this thread is about now.

Not quoting is perfect, as you are not replying to some thing specific that has been said :-)

I have no wish to point fingers as, being an Asperger's sufferer, I am far from perfect from a social interaction aspect but it seems that this thread is starting to get a little heated and bordering on the verge of personal attacks.

You are not the only one with interpretation difficulties for one reason or another ;-)

I am not trying to tell anyone what they should or shouldn't do or what they should or shouldn't say as I am well aware that what is considered acceptable ways to speak to someone varies from one culture to another but I do think that maybe people should try and sit back for a second before hitting the send button and consider whether they would say what they are writing directly to someone's face and whether it is acceptable behaviour.

That's true. At the same time, a person of one culture may consider as offensive what someone of another culture wrote without imagining that what he wrote could be considered offensive, being normal behaviour in his culture. (If you want to see offensive replies, try to ask a newby question on the ffmpeg list)

I know I haven't contributed much to either the mailing list or the project in general in many ways so feel free to ignore this email but I am hoping that this may highlight what this looks like from a point of view of someone from the outside who could well be looking at this on an archive while trying to consider if they consider openSUSE to be a worthwhile recipient of there time and effort.

Cheers

Robin

Ok :-) -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)

On Sun, 29 Nov 2020 20:45:46 +0100 Per Jessen wrote:

Neal Gompa wrote:

...

On Sun, Nov 29, 2020 at 1:56 PM Per Jessen wrote:

...

Neal Gompa wrote:

...

In my experience in the Linux Discord communities (especially the openSUSE one), I have dealt with *many* complaints about the mailing lists, and people being afraid to contribute because of how people respond on the lists.

Is there an archive anywhere where one can go educate oneself in this respect? I find it quite odd that someone should refrain from contributing just because of a poor response on a mailing list.

Personally speaking, my "itch" does not subside just because I am poorly received somewhere, I still wanna scratch it :-)

Neal, IMHO it is just a little too easy to announce that you "have dealt with *many* complaints about the mailing lists" and then scolding the mailing list members without any further evidence.

Each communication channel has it's own "atmosphere", some are tough and direct, others less so. There are learning curves, we all have to scale them.

I don't personally have one that I can offer, most of it was through private chats on Discord, but it has also come up in the main channels on the openSUSE Discord community. Myself, Stasiek, Knurpht, and Maurizio have talked to people publicly and privately about it. As the public chats are indexed and searchable from the Discord client, you can search for discussions about this there.

Neal, I think it is actually up to you (or Stasiek, Knurpht or Maurizio) to offer some plain URLs to those chats you are talking about. That is a far more friendly way to enable communication than to ask me to use "the Discord client".

The point is not what people say about the ML on another platform but us trying to be more inclusive and less hostile. Some felt that we don't do this well enough and felt they had to leave. I wish we can focus on that and discuss ways to do better instead of posting URLs. Enough people in this thread have already spoken about the issue.

BTW, I have also heard *many* complaints about the Discord channels, what would be a suitable place to bring those up? I am sure you will understand what I mean.

Complaints can reported to the moderators and if that is not enough the openSUSE Board. Ultimately if neither of those option is suitable, you can report abuses etc directly to Discord within the UI. -- Maurizio Galli (m4u9) Xfce Team https://en.opensuse.org/Portal:Xfce

Op zondag 29 november 2020 21:56:11 CET schreef Per Jessen:

Maurizio Galli wrote:

...

On Sun, 29 Nov 2020 20:45:46 +0100 Per Jessen wrote:

...

Neal Gompa wrote:

...

On Sun, Nov 29, 2020 at 1:56 PM Per Jessen wrote:

...

Neal Gompa wrote:

...

In my experience in the Linux Discord communities (especially the openSUSE one), I have dealt with *many* complaints about the mailing lists, and people being afraid to contribute because of how people respond on the lists.

Is there an archive anywhere where one can go educate oneself in this respect? I find it quite odd that someone should refrain from contributing just because of a poor response on a mailing list.

Personally speaking, my "itch" does not subside just because I am poorly received somewhere, I still wanna scratch it :-)

Neal, IMHO it is just a little too easy to announce that you "have dealt with *many* complaints about the mailing lists" and then scolding the mailing list members without any further evidence.

Each communication channel has it's own "atmosphere", some are tough and direct, others less so. There are learning curves, we all have to scale them.

I don't personally have one that I can offer, most of it was through private chats on Discord, but it has also come up in the main channels on the openSUSE Discord community. Myself, Stasiek, Knurpht, and Maurizio have talked to people publicly and privately about it. As the public chats are indexed and searchable from the Discord client, you can search for discussions about this there.

Neal, I think it is actually up to you (or Stasiek, Knurpht or Maurizio) to offer some plain URLs to those chats you are talking about. That is a far more friendly way to enable communication than to ask me to use "the Discord client".

The point is not what people say about the ML on another platform but us trying to be more inclusive and less hostile. Some felt that we don't do this well enough and felt they had to leave. I wish we can focus on that and discuss ways to do better instead of posting URLs.

What do you propose exactly ? Focus on _what_ exactly when you can't tell us what it is ? I am not trying to be difficult, but it's just too fluffy.

...

...

BTW, I have also heard *many* complaints about the Discord channels, what would be a suitable place to bring those up? I am sure you will understand what I mean.

Complaints can reported to the moderators and if that is not enough the openSUSE Board. Ultimately if neither of those option is suitable, you can report abuses etc directly to Discord within the UI.

So _exactly_ like on the openSUSE mailing lists, except we have publicly available archives, needing nothing but a browser.

I do not understand why "Neal, Stasiek, Knurpht, and yourself" are not simply referring any ML complaints to the moderators and the openSUSE board. Neal says he has "dealt with many complaints about the mailing lists, and people being afraid to contribute because of how people respond on the lists.". Why was this not brought to the list moderators or the openSUSE board ?

This was brought up to the Board a several times.

-- Per Jessen, Zürich (0.0°C) Member, openSUSE Heroes _______________________________________________ openSUSE Project mailing list -- project@lists.opensuse.org To unsubscribe, email project-leave@lists.opensuse.org List Netiquette: https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Mailing_list_netiquette List Archives: https://lists.opensuse.org/archives/list/project@lists.opensuse.org

-- Gertjan Lettink a.k.a. Knurpht openSUSE Forums Team

Hello, Am Sonntag, 29. November 2020, 22:00:55 CET schrieb Knurpht-openSUSE:

Op zondag 29 november 2020 21:56:11 CET schreef Per Jessen:

[...]

...

I do not understand why "Neal, Stasiek, Knurpht, and yourself" are not simply referring any ML complaints to the moderators and the openSUSE board. Neal says he has "dealt with many complaints about the mailing lists, and people being afraid to contribute because of how people respond on the lists.". Why was this not brought to the list moderators or the openSUSE board ?

This was brought up to the Board a several times.

Years ago, the installation of some packages sent emails to root [...] This is not done any more. Why? :-? Because you didn't reply to them, the installation process then decided

Well, depends on the definitions of "This". In the ~3 years I was in the board, we didn't get any complaints because someone was asked not to top-post, to shorten quotes or similar things. We also didn't get complaints about people who top-post, full-quote etc. I only remember complaints about _serious_ issues on a mailinglist, for example calling someone names. For completeness: The board also discussed about the atmosphere on a specific mailinglist, but that was brought up by a board member, not from outside the board. Regards, Christian Boltz -- that it was a waste of time sending you e-mails and so......stopped sending them to you. [> Carlos E. R. and Basil Chupin in opensuse-factory]

On 29/11/2020 19.56, Per Jessen wrote:

Neal Gompa wrote:

...

In my experience in the Linux Discord communities (especially the openSUSE one), I have dealt with *many* complaints about the mailing lists, and people being afraid to contribute because of how people respond on the lists.

Is there an archive anywhere where one can go educate oneself in this respect? I find it quite odd that someone should refrain from contributing just because of a poor response on a mailing list.

Personally speaking, my "itch" does not subside just because I am poorly received somewhere, I still wanna scratch it :-)

Neal, IMHO it is just a little too easy to announce that you "have dealt with *many* complaints about the mailing lists" and then scolding the mailing list members without any further evidence.

Each communication channel has it's own "atmosphere", some are tough and direct, others less so. There are learning curves, we all have to scale them.

I have seen people on Usenet comment that the Linux crowd is rough and not welcoming, that they got grunts and even insults when asking things. Interestingly, none mentioned openSUSE, they mentioned other distributions (I would have to search the posts to find out which. I can't grep, sorry). Which is curious, because on Usenet there is no moderation and you can be indeed insulted. I have been insulted more than once! (sometimes for using Linux, or for not doing perfect photographs). Hey! Remember when sudo would insult us? The default was changed on openSUSE to avoid this. And we all have seen how the "creator" treats other developers :-p -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)

On 29/11/2020 20.56, Per Jessen wrote:

Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

On 29/11/2020 19.56, Per Jessen wrote:

...

Neal Gompa wrote:

...

I have seen people on Usenet comment that the Linux crowd is rough and not welcoming,

I appreciate that you probably don't know, but who might "the Linux crowd" be ? Is it the postfix guys, the mariadb gang or the kernel crew ? or the kde users ?

Hey, I was trying to be mocking :-) To complain in Usenet that the Linux crowd is rough, when in Usenet you can easily be insulted every other day, and the number of trolls to avoid is large, is somewhat ridiculous. I think that person was referring to some user help mail list or forum, maybe on Ubuntu or Debian - I don't know the actual groups or distributions he was referring to, I have not saved that post and I have forgotten the details. What I'm sure is that he had not tried openSUSE. I encouraged him to try us. (I have been grossly insulted at my own home by a person that loves Debian and considers me using openSUSE a gross mistake and agravance. I had to eject that person from my premises. Just saying.)

I re-iterate that we (openSUSE) have to be inclusive, not exclusive, that is important to me. For one group, i.e. users of one means of communication, to whine about another ditto is just weird.

Wrt mailing lists, we have more than a hundred, and I expect the "environment" varies enormously across them.

Painting e.g. all of our forums members or all of our mailing list subscribers or all of our discord ditto with one broad brush is simply wrong.

Agreed :-) -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)

* Gryffus [11-29-20 07:16]:

<snip>

...

It's not that simple.

In public conversations like this there are observers, and what they see affects their own, future behavior.  Which may include remaining silent for fear of being shamed.  Or leaving.  Or ...

Gerald

Or not top-posting when they decide to write their first message to the list...? Imagine sending a private mail each time someone is top-posting...

:D

Regards, Gfs

expecially when our own elected officers do not follow the published netiquette. if no one every admonishes/informs any one of the standards they fail to follow probably partly from not taking the time to read them, what reason is there to have standards? many do not even wrap their lines. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode

It does matter.

The issue for me is not that much if it is above or below, top or bottom, but its size. The not trimming that is implied by top posting. The sending of 3 kilobytes of material with a 15 kilobyte quote.

And the problem is, if clients collapse that excess repeated material, that you are simply not aware of the problem.

I think we should look for a way if we can remove the quoted body of prior e-mails directly on the mail-server side TBH. Hey, have a look at Linus responses! ;-p I did go through some of my favorites today, it was a nice saturday morning full of laughter :-) I used to live in Finland and know "management by perkele" very well (I was working for Tieto, a rather large corporation of 15k employees but mostly located in Nordics), I love their style for genuity. You ask a cashier in a shop "how are you doing" and she points blank says "today is a crappy day, I did not sleep well", it's lovely... I am sure you've also seen the "bus stop in Finland before COVID and now" meme going around, if not google it, I can testify it is true! :) -- Best regards / S pozdravem, BSc. Mark Stopka, BBA Managing Partner (at) PERLUR Group mobile: +420 704 373 561 website: www.perlur.cloud

On Sat, Nov 28, 2020 at 3:32 PM Stasiek Michalski wrote:

Am Sa, 28. Nov, 2020 um 2:46 P. M. schrieb Mark Stopka :

...

I think we should look for a way if we can remove the quoted body of prior e-mails directly on the mail-server side TBH.

I sincerely hope this is a joke suggestion, under no circumstances should we ever modify the body content of anything on the mailing list apart from amending footer.

It is not a joke, I understand the argument of immutability, but as you omitted (I believe that was one of the arguments made in favor of top-posting in the Hacker News linked earlier), I was reacting to a large mail size, body size creep is a reality, and I was merely suggesting a solution for problem at hand, where that leads further is for a whole another debate and all factors would have to be considered in such, and I am not looking into having that debate now. TL;DR it is something other members of the community can think about and we can decide months later, or never open again, but it brings the so called 90% upside with the 10% downside, we live in a world where we don't delete emails anymore, they are archived,... -- Best regards / S pozdravem, BSc. Mark Stopka, BBA Managing Partner (at) PERLUR Group mobile: +420 704 373 561 website: www.perlur.cloud

On 28/11/2020 16.00, Stasiek Michalski wrote:

Am Sa, 28. Nov, 2020 um 3:43 P. M. schrieb Mark Stopka <>:

...

It is not a joke, I understand the argument of immutability, but as you omitted (I believe that was one of the arguments made in favor of top-posting in the Hacker News linked earlier), I was reacting to a large mail size, body size creep is a reality, and I was merely suggesting a solution for problem at hand, where that leads further is for a whole another debate and all factors would have to be considered in such, and I am not looking into having that debate now.

TL;DR it is something other members of the community can think about and we can decide months later, or never open again, but it brings the so called 90% upside with the 10% downside, we live in a world where we don't delete emails anymore, they are archived,...

If the problem is the size, we can limit the size of the accepted mails very easily in mailman. We lifted the default size restriction because the emails from scripts not getting through (most notably Tumbleweed snapshot announcement), we can give tokens to the scripts to send emails that get accepted despite the restriction (I would recommend talking with the release managers of every distro/variant beforehand though ;)

I have the vague recollection of some place where software would directly reject a post if it had a large percent of quoted materials. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)

Op zondag 29 november 2020 03:32:33 CET schreef Michal Kubecek:

I'm sorry but I'm not sure I understand you. Do you really want to say that quoting a slightly extended version of a famous illustrative example found in various mailing list netiquette documents, e.g.

https://www.freebsd.org/doc/en/articles/mailing-list-faq/etiquette.html https://tilde.wiki/mailing_lists#top-posting

is supposed to be considered "shaming people"?

Michal Kubecek IMHO that is not what Neal is saying at all. But there's a huge difference between banging just a $URL in the face and "Could you please not blah, see $URL", agreed?

-- Gertjan Lettink a.k.a. Knurpht openSUSE Forums Team

On Sun, 29 Nov 2020 10:21:47 +0100 Michal Kubecek wrote:

On Sun, Nov 29, 2020 at 03:42:45AM +0100, Knurpht-openSUSE wrote:

...

...

I'm sorry but I'm not sure I understand you. Do you really want to say that quoting a slightly extended version of a famous illustrative example found in various mailing list netiquette documents, e.g.

https://www.freebsd.org/doc/en/articles/mailing-list-faq/etiquette.html https://tilde.wiki/mailing_lists#top-posting

is supposed to be considered "shaming people"?

Michal Kubecek IMHO that is not what Neal is saying at all. But there's a huge difference between banging just a $URL in the face and "Could you

Op zondag 29 november 2020 03:32:33 CET schreef Michal Kubecek: please not blah, see $URL", agreed?

And I don't understand you now either. Vojtěch's e-mail started with "Bottom-posting is the standard here. Let's keep it so." - and Neal even quoted this part in his e-mail. While there is no "Could you please", I find the fact that such innocuous e-mail received this kind of bashing, extremely disturbing.

Seriously, if it's going to be a norm to react to perfectly normal e-mails like this with public scolding and strong words like "shaming people" and "assuming ill intent", I should probably reconsider if I want to be part of such "community" and participate in openSUSE mailing lists because I could also become a victim of this "politeness police" soon.

This is all ridiculous... And also ironic that Neal accuses people of "public shaming" and "assuming ill intent" in an e-mail where he is doing exactly that.

I think we should move past the specific email from Vojtěch because it was already explained by the people involved that there was no ill intention, and I am also torn and sorry that it was interpreted the way it was. I hope it can be forgiven but also understood that the reason why this thread is still ongoing is because some people here agreed and acknowledged that in more general terms, in the past the general attitude in the mailing lists has been a problem that has happened and should be addressed one way or the other rather than brushing it off. Cheers, Maurizio -- Maurizio Galli (m4u9) Xfce Team https://en.opensuse.org/Portal:Xfce

On 2020-11-29 10:21, Michal Kubecek wrote:

Seriously, if it's going to be a norm to react to perfectly normal e-mails like this with public scolding and strong words like "shaming people" and "assuming ill intent", I should probably reconsider if I want to be part of such "community" and participate in openSUSE mailing lists because I could also become a victim of this "politeness police" soon.

This is all ridiculous... And also ironic that Neal accuses people of "public shaming" and "assuming ill intent" in an e-mail where he is doing exactly that.

Michal Kubeček

I think Neal's general point and request that people try and elevate the tone of conversation in our lists is a valid one, well thought out, and justified. I'm not surprised that some folk might struggle with accepting that. I feel the specific post Neal used as an example is immaterial; For example, one might also consider a recent Factory thread where a certain maintainer attempts to cast shame and assumes ill-intent on an openSUSE release manager, who was in practice just dealing with the consequences of rpmlint changes made by other community members. I'm sure there are other examples readily findable, I agree with Neal that our collective tone is a problem, and I'm disappointed in those who are advocating against improving the decorum in our lists. I'm certainly going to keep Neal's request in mind in my own posts to the lists and I'd encourage other's to do so also. -Rich

On Sun, Nov 29, 2020 at 07:12:22PM +0100, Knurpht-openSUSE wrote:

Op zondag 29 november 2020 10:21:47 CET schreef Michal Kubecek:

...

And I don't understand you now either. Vojtěch's e-mail started with "Bottom-posting is the standard here. Let's keep it so." - and Neal even quoted this part in his e-mail. While there is no "Could you please", I find the fact that such innocuous e-mail received this kind of bashing, extremely disturbing.

I admit that Neal could have found a better example. A good example. Or better: no example But I wasn't so much referring to the example Neal used, more to the general part of his email. And probably triggered by the fact that what he describes matches my experiences..

For me, the example is very important. Without it, the e-mail would be just another generic "let's be nice to each other" call that hardly anyone could say anything else to than "yes, of course" but that would be likely all impact it would have. A specific example of what is supposed to be considered "shaming people" gives it an idea of scale or threshold. Seeing what Neal chose as an example (and what was likely his trigger for opening the topic) makes me uneasy and seeing all the people agreeing with him enthusiastically that this is what drives people away and what must be dealt with makes me very uneasy. Perhaps they didn't really think about it and it's just the same automatic meaningless "yes, of course" but I'm not sure that would make things much better. This thread made me realize how far the atmosphere in the main openSUSE mailing lists got from the traditional spirit of open source developer lists. Of course it's not just this thread, I've been feeling it for a long time, but it was a hint that things may have gone too far.

...

Seriously, if it's going to be a norm to react to perfectly normal e-mails like this with public scolding and strong words like "shaming people" and "assuming ill intent", I should probably reconsider if I want to be part of such "community" and participate in openSUSE mailing lists because I could also become a victim of this "politeness police" soon.

Absolutely not.

I'm not so sure, just check Mr. Brown's reply next to yours. He apparently believes I already violated all kinds of policies and norms of behaviour and wrote so quite unambiguously. Michal Kubeček

Hi, reading the thread after weekend off (not just off-line, even without electricity:-) is very... interesting... ;-) Dne neděle 29. listopadu 2020 10:21:47 CET, Michal Kubecek napsal(a):

On Sun, Nov 29, 2020 at 03:42:45AM +0100, Knurpht-openSUSE wrote:

...

Op zondag 29 november 2020 03:32:33 CET schreef Michal Kubecek:

...

I'm sorry but I'm not sure I understand you. Do you really want to say that quoting a slightly extended version of a famous illustrative https://www.freebsd.org/doc/en/articles/mailing-list-faq/etiquette.html https://tilde.wiki/mailing_lists#top-posting is supposed to be considered "shaming people"? Michal Kubecek

IMHO that is not what Neal is saying at all. But there's a huge difference between banging just a $URL in the face and "Could you please not blah, see $URL", agreed?

And I don't understand you now either. Vojtěch's e-mail started with "Bottom-posting is the standard here. Let's keep it so." - and Neal even quoted this part in his e-mail. While there is no "Could you please", I find the fact that such innocuous e-mail received this kind of bashing, extremely disturbing.

I'm sorry, but I don't get what was supposed to be so shaming. If anyone feels offended, I'm sorry, It wasn't intending to do so. But Neal's conclusions are simply completely wrong. I'm sorry, I have no idea where his assumptions could go from. Thank You, Michal, for perfect explanation in my absence. :-)

This is all ridiculous... And also ironic that Neal accuses people of "public shaming" and "assuming ill intent" in an e-mail where he is doing exactly that.

Yep, totally ridiculous for me. So, let's move forward, or do we need more discussion about styling of our mails? ;) Yours, -- Vojtěch Zeisek https://trapa.cz/ Komunita openSUSE GNU/Linuxu Community of the openSUSE GNU/Linux https://www.opensuse.org/

On Sun, Nov 29, 2020 at 03:35:43PM -0800, Fraser_Bell wrote:

On 11/27/20 9:12 PM, Neal Gompa wrote:

...

Hey all,

We seem to have a problem on the openSUSE mailing list of shaming people and assuming ill intent. ?????

Here we have someone asking the people on the list to please become friendlier and more courteous, to respect others, to not attack others, and to follow the openSUSE Guidelines (Yes, they exist for all to see!).

What is the response?

To attack and disrespect this request, to argue against us following our guidelines or to "be nice"!

Someone said the list has not driven people away from openSUSE. I know, for a FACT, that it has.

There are several others I know of who have done the same, but I can *certainly* speak for myself.

I withdrew from contributing to openSUSE months ago, most of the reason a principle along with the nasty tone of these lists, and publicly stated so in these lists.

In fact, I had asked that my Membership be cancelled: A request that was not honoured.

I now withdraw that request, tentatively, while I participate at a fraction in the new conversations.

I will be watching to see if I will return to openSUSE and to contributing, or if I will just drift off. So what??? Well, if I am stating this publicly, you can bet there are others doing the same.

Let's get some balance here. I also decided to leave most openSUSE mailing list and minimize my involvement in openSUSE project but this is in no way related to harsh language or communication being too direct, touching someone's feelings. Quite the contrary, it's the fact that representants of openSUSE "community", while speaking of being nice, friendly and inclusive, behave in most uncommunitylike manner. Michal Kubeček

Op vrijdag 4 december 2020 01:13:06 CET schreef Fraser_Bell:

Just for the record:

The term "man up" has one purpose and one purpose only: To be arrogantly offensive. Nothing else. Period.

To allow /permit oneself to be arrogantly offensive ? -- Gertjan Lettink a.k.a. Knurpht openSUSE Forums Team

Goodbye, openSUSE -- -Gerry Makaro Fraser-Bell on Github

* Fraser_Bell [12-03-20 19:14]:

Just for the record:

The term "man up" has one purpose and one purpose only: To be arrogantly offensive. Nothing else. Period.

for the public record: I find your statement and position offensive! -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode