[opensuse-project] independence
On Tue, 8 Jun 2010 10:05:40 +0200, Andreas Jaeger <aj@novell.com> wrote:
openSUSE has evolved from SUSE Linux which was a distribution developed behind the firewall to a project with open mailing lists, bugzilla and wiki now to a real open source project. It's not anymore only Novell/SUSE employees that can do things - everybody in the community can get involved. That includes filing bug reports - like Richard does -, software translation, writing documentation, marketing the project and development. There might need to be some attitude adjustement for Novell developers for many of whom openSUSE is not the first priority and I'm happy to help with that when it gets pointed out to me. The question remains how to grow the openSUSE contributor community so that Richard doesn't need to learn C++ to get a bug fixed ;)
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I hear rumors Novell is for sale. Will opensuse get its own bugzilla independent from Novell? And what else needs to be done for opensuse to gain full independence? -- Web mail, POP3, and SMTP http://www.beewyz.com/freeaccounts.php -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On 8-6-2010 at 14:21, Trifle Menot <triflemenot@beewyz.com> wrote: If you like to continue this thread, please followup on the opensuse-project mailing list with a different subject
I hear rumors Novell is for sale. Will opensuse get its own bugzilla independent from Novell? And what else needs to be done for opensuse to gain full independence?
Any stock market listed company is for sale at any moment. nothing new there I would say. Have a look: Microsoft is for sale: Consult your bank and start buying up the shares from there... (other words for saying: so what?) As for independence: do we want / need this? Just look at all the services provided by Novell for the project: - openSUSE BuildService -> How many servers can 'we' as community afford without a partner, who is going to host it? Who is taking care of the energy bill? - Bugzilla: Why splitting it off? What's the real gain (other than having a different branded stylesheet?) (maybe having a CNAME from bugzilla.opensuse.org would be nice though; one that brings me to bugzilla, and not to en.opensuse.org/Submit_a_Bug ) - Bandwidth for mirror syncs: How much bandwidth can we afford without a strong parter to our side? Nothing against the idea of appearing as a strong project and putting a point to it: but consider everything when shouting loud out for 'let's get independent from Novell'. Dominique -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Tuesday 08 June 2010 14:28:27 Dominique Leuenberger wrote:
[...] As for independence: do we want / need this? Just look at all the services provided by Novell for the project: - openSUSE BuildService -> How many servers can 'we' as community afford without a partner, who is going to host it? Who is taking care of the energy bill? - Bugzilla: Why splitting it off? What's the real gain (other than having a different branded stylesheet?) (maybe having a CNAME from bugzilla.opensuse.org would be nice though; one that brings me to bugzilla, and not to en.opensuse.org/Submit_a_Bug )
No problem do change the CNAME. We discussed this in bugzilla and thought this way might be the better way.
- Bandwidth for mirror syncs: How much bandwidth can we afford without a strong parter to our side?
Nothing against the idea of appearing as a strong project and putting a point to it: but consider everything when shouting loud out for 'let's get independent from Novell'.
And I think that's the discussion we should have: Are we a strong project? And if not, how can we become one? How will you make this happen? Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, Program Manager openSUSE, aj@{novell.com,opensuse.org} Twitter: jaegerandi | Identica: jaegerandi SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126
Hi all.
Nothing against the idea of appearing as a strong project and putting a point to it: but consider everything when shouting loud out for 'let's get independent from Novell'.
And I think that's the discussion we should have: Are we a strong project? And if not, how can we become one? How will you make this happen?
It's always good to have a Plan-B and I guess it would be possible to fork openSUSE away from Novell, but I see no real good reason for atm. I agree with Andreas and would rather join forces to make oS better than ever. Best Regards Marcus -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On 06/08/2010 at 2:35 PM, Andreas Jaeger <aj@novell.com> wrote: And I think that's the discussion we should have: Are we a strong project? And if not, how can we become one? How will you make this happen?
I agree: the discussion of becoming a strong project is important and is (hopefully) in line of what the strategy discussion / draft will bring up. But I doubt that splitting off from the main sponsor (maybe not so much in man-power anymore, but a lot of resources in infrastructure!) is a good start in gaining strength. Dominique -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Tuesday 08 June 2010 14:21:05 Trifle Menot wrote:
On Tue, 8 Jun 2010 10:05:40 +0200, Andreas Jaeger <aj@novell.com> wrote:
openSUSE has evolved from SUSE Linux which was a distribution developed behind the firewall to a project with open mailing lists, bugzilla and wiki now to a real open source project. It's not anymore only Novell/SUSE employees that can do things - everybody in the community can get involved. That includes filing bug reports - like Richard does -, software translation, writing documentation, marketing the project and development. There might need to be some attitude adjustement for Novell developers for many of whom openSUSE is not the first priority and I'm happy to help with that when it gets pointed out to me. The question remains how to grow the openSUSE contributor community so that Richard doesn't need to learn C++ to get a bug fixed ;)
If you like to continue this thread, please followup on the opensuse-project mailing list with a different subject
I hear rumors Novell is for sale. Will opensuse get its own bugzilla independent from Novell? And what else needs to be done for opensuse to gain full independence?
Novell is a public traded company and it received an unfriendly offer for buy- out that was rejected. Let's not speculate what will or could happen but instead look where we want openSUSE to go. * Own bugzilla: Does it make sense to have a separate bugzilla that we need to administrate as part of the project? For me right now the benefits of using the Novell bugzilla outweight the limitations we have. My main concerns with moving bugzillas are: - engineers will hate to have to look into another bugzilla. So, Novell engineers will look first for enterprise bugs into the Novell ones and then later into the openSUSE one. Do we want that? If not, let's first create a webapp or desktop app that allows all of us to have one tool to access different bug tracking tools. - How do we want to authenticate? Stay with ichain or go another route? What do you understand with full independence? The project is run by those people that contribute to it. What is your contribution to make openSUSE succeed? IMO "independend from Novell" is the wrong question. I'd like to see Novell as main sponsor (it hosts lots more than bugzilla in our datacenter, nearly the whole opensuse.org infrastructure) and treated as such - but not as dictator that everybody bows in front of and gets scared by it. So, for me the question is do we want to be a real open source project driven by a community - with Novell employees in that community like everybody else - and how do we manage that? Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, Program Manager openSUSE, aj@{novell.com,opensuse.org} Twitter: jaegerandi | Identica: jaegerandi SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126
On 08/06/10 22:32, Andreas Jaeger wrote:
On Tuesday 08 June 2010 14:21:05 Trifle Menot wrote:
On Tue, 8 Jun 2010 10:05:40 +0200, Andreas Jaeger<aj@novell.com> wrote:
openSUSE has evolved from SUSE Linux which was a distribution developed behind the firewall to a project with open mailing lists, bugzilla and wiki now to a real open source project. It's not anymore only Novell/SUSE employees that can do things - everybody in the community can get involved. That includes filing bug reports - like Richard does -, software translation, writing documentation, marketing the project and development. There might need to be some attitude adjustement for Novell developers for many of whom openSUSE is not the first priority and I'm happy to help with that when it gets pointed out to me. The question remains how to grow the openSUSE contributor community so that Richard doesn't need to learn C++ to get a bug fixed ;)
If you like to continue this thread, please followup on the opensuse-project mailing list with a different subject
I hear rumors Novell is for sale. Will opensuse get its own bugzilla independent from Novell? And what else needs to be done for opensuse to gain full independence?
Novell is a public traded company and it received an unfriendly offer for buy- out that was rejected. Let's not speculate what will or could happen but instead look where we want openSUSE to go.
Well you now have 3 rumours to contend with: that Novell is looking for someone to take it out it of its misery, that Google is thinking of buying Novell, and that the rival Linux distro Red Hat is also "in the race". Haven't heard any denials from Novell about this. Good luck. BC -- Attorney: All your responses MUST be oral, OK? What school did you go to? Witness: Oral. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Tue, 2010-06-08 at 23:03 +1000, Basil Chupin wrote:
I hear rumors Novell is for sale. Will opensuse get its own bugzilla independent from Novell? And what else needs to be done for opensuse to gain full independence?
Novell is a public traded company and it received an unfriendly offer for buy- out that was rejected. Let's not speculate what will or could happen but instead look where we want openSUSE to go.
Well you now have 3 rumours to contend with: that Novell is looking for someone to take it out it of its misery, that Google is thinking of buying Novell, and that the rival Linux distro Red Hat is also "in the race".
Haven't heard any denials from Novell about this.
Good luck.
BC
And you won't hear any denials nor confirmations of this from Novell. Novell can't comment on such speculations until there is an actual agreement in place to purchase Novell. The only item you mentioned above which is not a rumor is that Novell is up for sale. This is indeed true, but as Dominique has pointed out, technically all stock-owned companies are for sale at any given time. Rumors of a company actually buying Novell is nothing new, this has been the case for 20 years now (as far back as I can remember.) With regards to the question of independence brought up by Trifle Menot, the openSUSE Board did bring up the question of what immediate impact Novell's "up-for-sale" status has on the Project, and we all agreed that as of this time, it is business as usual. We will proceed as we have always planned. As I'm sure you have been following previous discussions, the openSUSE Board is moving towards establishing a Foundation. This Foundation's intent is to give the Community some measure of control and influence on the project. However, it does not mean we intend to remove Novell from our project as a main sponsor. Their contributions to openSUSE is invaluable, and regardless of the future of Novell, we intend to continue to build upon this partnership as well as partnerships with other sponsors of openSUSE. With regards to infrastructure control, such as bugzilla and other areas, like OBS, we certainly are not going to move forward and start dismantling that relationship at this time, simply because of rumors. That would be premature and frankly, quite immature to do so. Even if Novell were bought out today, it would still have to undergo regulatory approval process by government agencies and thus would take a long time (possibly up to a year) before any transition became formalized. At the time that such an acquisition occurs, we will use this period of time to review the project's standing with whomever the new owner would be and what measures we want to take in order to ensure the health and success of the Project. Anything before then is just simply wild speculation because we don't even know who will purchase Novell (or even if someone WILL purchase Novell.) Sincerely, Bryen M Yunashko openSUSE Board Member -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Tue, Jun 8, 2010 at 15:28, Bryen M. Yunashko wrote:
And you won't hear any denials nor confirmations of this from Novell. Novell can't comment on such speculations until there is an actual agreement in place to purchase Novell.
Speculating about a possible sale or lack of a sale is (as Bryen said) a waste of effort. no one will be able to confirm or deny.. not because they don't want to say anything, but so that if there is a sale negotiation in process, they don't jeopardize that sale.... that plus the tight legal restrictions in place also prevent anyone from saying anything.
That would be premature and frankly, quite immature to do so. Even if Novell were bought out today, it would still have to undergo regulatory approval process by government agencies and thus would take a long time (possibly up to a year) before any transition became formalized.
Look at how long it's taken for Oracle and Sun to conclude their deal. C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Tue, 08 Jun 2010 08:28:53 -0500, "Bryen M. Yunashko" <suserocks@bryen.com> wrote:
As I'm sure you have been following previous discussions, the openSUSE Board is moving towards establishing a Foundation. This Foundation's intent is to give the Community some measure of control and influence on the project. However, it does not mean we intend to remove Novell from our project as a main sponsor. Their contributions to openSUSE is invaluable, and regardless of the future of Novell, we intend to continue to build upon this partnership as well as partnerships with other sponsors of openSUSE.
To get significant sponsorship from other corporate players, opensuse needs independence from Novell. The Novell/Microsoft relationship is repulsive to other players.
With regards to infrastructure control, such as bugzilla and other areas, like OBS, we certainly are not going to move forward and start dismantling that relationship at this time, simply because of rumors
Nurture the main sponsor relationship, but don't be dependent on their infrastructure. It's a question of organization, and the willpower to do the boring work of reorganizing it. -- Web mail, POP3, and SMTP http://www.beewyz.com/freeaccounts.php -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Bottom line: If you seek more independence, then just do it (as Henne says.) Each and every one of us brings something unique to the table. If there's something you can do and want to do, do it. And if you encounter obstacles, raise your voice loudly and challenge us (the community) to remove those obstacles to make your work more productive. Our ability to be more independent and have more control over the project has nothing to do with who owns Novell currently or tomorrow. It is us having the wherewithal and resolve to do so. As for sponsorship from other organizations, again this is speculation. We have not done anything yet to actively seek out sponsorships. This is one goal of the Foundation to begin an active process of sponsorship. But until we actively do so, any assumption why we don't have sponsors now besides the primary Novell sponsorship is pure speculation. Bryen M Yunashko openSUSE Board Member -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Tue, 08 Jun 2010 08:53:31 -0500, "Bryen M. Yunashko" <suserocks@bryen.com> wrote:
Bottom line:
If you seek more independence, then just do it (as Henne says.) Each and every one of us brings something unique to the table. If there's something you can do and want to do, do it. And if you encounter obstacles, raise your voice loudly and challenge us (the community) to remove those obstacles to make your work more productive.
Many individuals, and corporate players too, will refuse to work unless they believe their contributions are a good investment.
As for sponsorship from other organizations, again this is speculation. We have not done anything yet to actively seek out sponsorships. This is one goal of the Foundation to begin an active process of sponsorship. But until we actively do so, any assumption why we don't have sponsors now besides the primary Novell sponsorship is pure speculation.
It's not speculation, it's self evident: Novell/Microsoft is repulsive to other corporate players. Accept it, and recognize that gaining full independence is essential for overcoming it. -- Web mail, POP3, and SMTP http://www.beewyz.com/freeaccounts.php -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Trifle Menot schreef:
On Tue, 08 Jun 2010 08:53:31 -0500, "Bryen M. Yunashko" <suserocks@bryen.com> wrote:
It's not speculation, it's self evident: Novell/Microsoft is repulsive to other corporate players. Accept it, and recognize that gaining full independence is essential for overcoming it.
This, unfortunately, is true... It was MS way of getting rid of serious competition, and Novells to get some hardneeded bucks.... Full independence means to have resources and fundings to complete an OS that is taken serious. Even so unfortunate is the fact that life costs money, and because of some 'sharks' who want to own all the money, life is becoming more expensive every day. Best option was finding a biljonair who wants to 'own' his own software company, loves to pay all the bills, and who gives all that software away for free, without stressing up all the employees, who work for free, because they are 'involved', and don't know what they should do with their time, except creating the 'newest' software. In what way is this realistic? Nothing in the real world is for free, because everybody is brainwashed to believe and act that way. So, how to change this 'knowledge' into a 'working' solution? The community could buy 'shares', and thus provide an amount of money, gaining influence, feeling more 'responsible', and keep oS 'floating'. (But as many people, as many opinions, so probably this idea will be torpedood, as all the others, and nothing will change... ) This would need a lot of planning, but would eventualy attract more people who want to be involved as soon as 'the word' went out of oS's independence, and bold struggle for survival. It would be possible to show the world, there is something else than working for mere material profit: The 'legacy', and best operating system the world has ever seen. But, it would be nessesary to sell the product, and that has always been the difficult part. Should the choices than be to get commercial? I think not in the way other companies do, but making the difference... Strategies should be developed to restrict 'the plans' from the world as long as possible. If the majority of the shares is in 'good' hands, bad decisions can be opposed. (a possibility to discuss, at least) -- Enjoy your time around, Oddball, aka M9. OS: Linux 2.6.27.19-3.2-default x86_64 Huidige gebruiker: oddball@AMD64x2-sfn1 Systeem: openSUSE 11.1 (x86_64) KDE: 4.2.1 (KDE 4.2.1) "release 103" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Tue, 8 Jun 2010, Oddball wrote:
Best option was finding a biljonair who wants to 'own' his own software company, loves to pay all the bills, and who gives all that software away for free, without stressing up all the employees, who work for free, because they are 'involved', and don't know what they should do with their time, except creating the 'newest' software.
In what way is this realistic?
No, it's not. And I fail to see how that would bring us (openSUSE) independence, which is what this thread is about. Gerald -- Dr. Gerald Pfeifer gp@novell.com | SUSE Linux Products GmbH Director Product Management | HRB 16746 (AG Nuremberg) SUSE Linux Enterprise, openSUSE, Appliances | GF Markus Rex -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Gerald Pfeifer schreef:
On Tue, 8 Jun 2010, Oddball wrote:
Best option was finding a biljonair who wants to 'own' his own software company, loves to pay all the bills, and who gives all that software away for free, without stressing up all the employees, who work for free, because they are 'involved', and don't know what they should do with their time, except creating the 'newest' software.
In what way is this realistic?
No, it's not.
And I fail to see how that would bring us (openSUSE) independence, which is what this thread is about.
Gerald
Maybe you should read the entire post? -- Enjoy your time around, Oddball, aka M9. OS: Linux 2.6.27.19-3.2-default x86_64 Huidige gebruiker: oddball@AMD64x2-sfn1 Systeem: openSUSE 11.1 (x86_64) KDE: 4.2.1 (KDE 4.2.1) "release 103" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
** Reply Requested by 6/8/2010 (Tuesday) ** ...
As I'm sure you have been following previous discussions, the openSUSE Board is moving towards establishing a Foundation. This Foundation's intent is to give the Community some measure of control and influence on the project. However, it does not mean we intend to remove Novell from our project as a main sponsor. Their contributions to openSUSE is invaluable, and regardless of the future of Novell, we intend to continue to build upon this partnership as well as partnerships with other sponsors of openSUSE.
To get significant sponsorship from other corporate players, opensuse needs independence from Novell. The Novell/Microsoft relationship is repulsive to other players.
Trifle Menot, I heard this kind of applause/comments for the last 3 years. ;-). The kernel version changes, Novell changes, also we had some BIG CHANCES and TROUBLES into the worldwide financial market, Barack Obama was elected as US number one as first non-white guy in the history, also we finally have CERN improving their labs, .... As you can see the world is changing in constant evolution. Maybe this is a kind of sign to you reflect some of your points and change the man you see in the mirror. Don't you think? We must believe that datacenters are heterogeneous platforms nowadays, how can we deliver a better interoperability that helps EVERYONE and EVERY COMPANY that uses EVERY SYSTEMS in this fast and competitive world without players like Novell, Microsoft, IBM, Google.... ? take a look at www.moreinterop.com I quite sure you will be amazed how much benefits that partnership was for us.
With regards to infrastructure control, such as bugzilla and other areas, like OBS, we certainly are not going to move forward and start dismantling that relationship at this time, simply because of rumors
Nurture the main sponsor relationship, but don't be dependent on their infrastructure. It's a question of organization, and the willpower to do the boring work of reorganizing it.
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El 08/06/10 09:44, Trifle Menot escribió:
To get significant sponsorship from other corporate players, opensuse needs independence from Novell. The Novell/Microsoft relationship is repulsive to other players.
Did you know that other big players, are in one way or another associated with MS anyway ? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Tue, 8 Jun 2010 14:32:32 +0200, Andreas Jaeger <aj@novell.com> wrote:
Novell is a public traded company and it received an unfriendly offer for buy- out that was rejected. Let's not speculate what will or could happen but instead look where we want openSUSE to go.
* Own bugzilla: Does it make sense to have a separate bugzilla that we need to administrate as part of the project? For me right now the benefits of using the Novell bugzilla outweight the limitations we have. My main concerns with moving bugzillas are: - engineers will hate to have to look into another bugzilla. So, Novell engineers will look first for enterprise bugs into the Novell ones and then later into the openSUSE one.
Yes that's a downside. But having opensuse bugzilla relying on Novell's login infrastructure is an impediment to independence. When Novell "goes away" you have a new problem to cope with. I think that's only a matter of time.
What do you understand with full independence?
Like debian. They rely on corporate donations to provide their mirror and download infrastructure.
IMO "independend from Novell" is the wrong question. I'd like to see Novell as main sponsor (it hosts lots more than bugzilla in our datacenter, nearly the whole opensuse.org infrastructure) and treated as such - but not as dictator that everybody bows in front of and gets scared by it.
It does not worry me that corporate might act like a dictator. But I believe it's only a matter of time before Novell "goes away" and morphs into something else. Best to plan for that now and anticipate how to keep opensuse alive. Under the present arrangement, opensuse is like a fetus. If the mother dies, the baby dies with it. opensuse needs to be born and get its own life. -- Web mail, POP3, and SMTP http://www.beewyz.com/freeaccounts.php -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Tue, 2010-06-08 at 13:20 +0000, Trifle Menot wrote:
On Tue, 8 Jun 2010 14:32:32 +0200, Andreas Jaeger <aj@novell.com> wrote:
Novell is a public traded company and it received an unfriendly offer for buy- out that was rejected. Let's not speculate what will or could happen but instead look where we want openSUSE to go.
* Own bugzilla: Does it make sense to have a separate bugzilla that we need to administrate as part of the project? For me right now the benefits of using the Novell bugzilla outweight the limitations we have. My main concerns with moving bugzillas are: - engineers will hate to have to look into another bugzilla. So, Novell engineers will look first for enterprise bugs into the Novell ones and then later into the openSUSE one.
Yes that's a downside. But having opensuse bugzilla relying on Novell's login infrastructure is an impediment to independence. When Novell "goes away" you have a new problem to cope with. I think that's only a matter of time.
You're assuming that when Novell gets bought, its present state will go away. We have no idea of this as we don't even know who will buy Novell. This is just pure wild speculation and the last thing we need right now.
What do you understand with full independence?
Like debian. They rely on corporate donations to provide their mirror and download infrastructure.
IMO "independend from Novell" is the wrong question. I'd like to see Novell as main sponsor (it hosts lots more than bugzilla in our datacenter, nearly the whole opensuse.org infrastructure) and treated as such - but not as dictator that everybody bows in front of and gets scared by it.
It does not worry me that corporate might act like a dictator. But I believe it's only a matter of time before Novell "goes away" and morphs into something else. Best to plan for that now and anticipate how to keep opensuse alive.
I've heard the "goes away" line so many times in the last 10 years that I've learned to just phase it out of my mind.
Under the present arrangement, opensuse is like a fetus. If the mother dies, the baby dies with it. opensuse needs to be born and get its own life.
Where have you been lately? The Community already has significant influence on the Project as it stands. It was the community that requested an extension of KDE 3.5 and got it. It was the community that took over the leads on various projects within the openSUSE Community. Novell has invested heavily in building community independence with its Booster team. KDE and GNOME are now largely packaged by community members. The openSUSE Board is an elected body of the Community, and has added an additional seat to reduce Novell's power on the board. Teams are being led by openSUSE community members. When I work, I often remind myself of what fellow board member Henne Vogelsang mentioned at last year's openSUSE Conference. "Novell wants the community to claim openSUSE." And Henne constantly reminds the community that if you want something done, JUST DO IT! We can go on and on and on about independence and Novell's powerful hold (which I don't believe is true), but the most important question remains: If Novell and openSUSE broke off ties today, what would we do? Have we done enough to step up as a Community to manage and influence openSUSE? Are we prepared for the kind of independence you're advocating? You say its time for openSUSE to not be a fetus and be born. I say its time for us to move into adolescence. We were already born a few years ago. Bryen M Yunashko openSUSE Board Member
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On Tue, 08 Jun 2010 08:41:18 -0500, "Bryen M. Yunashko" <suserocks@bryen.com> wrote:
You say its time for openSUSE to not be a fetus and be born. I say its time for us to move into adolescence. We were already born a few years ago.
If Novell pulls the power plug, your project infrastructure immediately collapses. The "community" is not strong enough to step in and turn the power back on. As long as that's true, you're still a fetus. To attract other corporate players, opensuse needs a life, independent from Novell. -- Web mail, POP3, and SMTP http://www.beewyz.com/freeaccounts.php -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Tuesday 08 June 2010 15:52:22 Trifle Menot wrote:
On Tue, 08 Jun 2010 08:41:18 -0500, "Bryen M. Yunashko"
<suserocks@bryen.com> wrote:
You say its time for openSUSE to not be a fetus and be born. I say its time for us to move into adolescence. We were already born a few years ago.
If Novell pulls the power plug, your project infrastructure immediately collapses. The "community" is not strong enough to step in and turn the power back on. As long as that's true, you're still a fetus.
Trifle, Novell will not pull the power plug immediately at all. So, let's concentrate on what makes sense *today* and care about other scenarios if they arise. And if they arise we need a strong community to continue. So, let's get back to the point I made: Are we a strong community? If not, what will we do to become one? Where will you get involved?
To attract other corporate players, opensuse needs a life, independent from Novell.
We do have already other corporate sponsors and a foundation will enable us to get more. I think that's the right focus in this area, Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, Program Manager openSUSE, aj@{novell.com,opensuse.org} Twitter: jaegerandi | Identica: jaegerandi SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126
On Tue, 8 Jun 2010 16:00:57 +0200, Andreas Jaeger <aj@novell.com> wrote:
Trifle, Novell will not pull the power plug immediately at all. So, let's concentrate on what makes sense *today* and care about other scenarios if they arise. And if they arise we need a strong community to continue. So, let's get back to the point I made: Are we a strong community? If not, what will we do to become one? Where will you get involved?
I won't, until opensuse is fully independent from Novell.
We do have already other corporate sponsors
I was not aware of that. Who are they?
a foundation will enable us to get more.
That's a step in the right direction. Bigger steps are needed though. -- Web mail, POP3, and SMTP http://www.beewyz.com/freeaccounts.php -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Le 08/06/2010 16:17, Trifle Menot a écrit :
I won't, until opensuse is fully independent from Novell.
are *you* fully independant of anything like your employer, your governent, including Microsoft? (like anybody else, nothing personal) and for sponsors, looks at the bottom of the page http://www.opensuse.org/en/ jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://www.facebook.com/pages/I-support-the-Linux-Documentation-Project/3720... http://www.facebook.com/pages/The-fan-page-of-Claire-Dodin/106485119372062?v... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Tue, 08 Jun 2010 16:41:30 +0200, jdd <jdd@dodin.org> wrote:
are *you* fully independant of anything like your employer, your governent, including Microsoft?
Yes. I don't work for Novell, its competitors, or any prospective corporate contributor. I have no axe to grind, unlike the opensuse contributors who depend on Novell for their paycheck. I like opensuse because I am able to install remote servers using text mode and ssh, without any hands on hardware access. Debian can do that too, but AFAIK, opensuse and debian are the only ones. I've invested a lot of time learning how to admin opensuse, and by now, I'm good enough at it, that I don't want to switch to Debian. But if I had to, I could.
and for sponsors, looks at the bottom of the page
AMD and a few Germans. Greater independence would attract more. -- Web mail, POP3, and SMTP http://www.beewyz.com/freeaccounts.php -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Tue, 2010-06-08 at 15:12 +0000, Trifle Menot wrote:
and for sponsors, looks at the bottom of the page
AMD and a few Germans. Greater independence would attract more.
As you have obviously studied this matter quite closely, we welcome your efforts to solicit sponsors to our Project. We look forward to hearing the feedback reports directly from the potential sponsors on their reasons for/against sponsorship. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Tue, 08 Jun 2010 10:17:57 -0500, "Bryen M. Yunashko" <suserocks@bryen.com> wrote:
and for sponsors, looks at the bottom of the page
AMD and a few Germans. Greater independence would attract more.
As you have obviously studied this matter quite closely, we welcome your efforts to solicit sponsors to our Project. We look forward to hearing the feedback reports directly from the potential sponsors on their reasons for/against sponsorship.
Your silly bombast is counterproductive, and repellent to those outside your clique. -- Web mail, POP3, and SMTP http://www.beewyz.com/freeaccounts.php -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
2010/6/8 Trifle Menot <triflemenot@beewyz.com>:
I won't, until opensuse is fully independent from Novell.
Well, this means that your contribution won't come anytime soon. But how do you think to actually influence the future of openSUSE? Sitting and waiting?
We do have already other corporate sponsors
I was not aware of that. Who are they?
This indicates you never carefully took the openSUSE wiki, because the sponsors logos are clearly shown there. Best, Alberto -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Tuesday 08 June 2010 16:17:05 Trifle Menot wrote:
I won't, until opensuse is fully independent from Novell.
Ok, then it does not make sense for me to engage in a discussion with you and I wonder what you want on this mailing list besides trolling. Plonk -- Andreas Jaeger, Program Manager openSUSE, aj@{novell.com,opensuse.org} Twitter: jaegerandi | Identica: jaegerandi SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126
On Tue, 8 Jun 2010 21:22:54 +0200, Andreas Jaeger <aj@novell.com> wrote:
On Tuesday 08 June 2010 16:17:05 Trifle Menot wrote:
I won't, until opensuse is fully independent from Novell.
Ok, then it does not make sense for me to engage in a discussion with you and I wonder what you want on this mailing list besides trolling.
Plonk
Like I told Bryen, you need to listen to opinions that originate outside your clique. And if your narrow minded thinking represents the project, a paid clique is all it will ever be. -- Web mail, POP3, and SMTP http://www.beewyz.com/freeaccounts.php -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Andreas Jaeger wrote:
On Tuesday 08 June 2010 16:17:05 Trifle Menot wrote:
I won't, until opensuse is fully independent from Novell.
Ok, then it does not make sense for me to engage in a discussion with you and I wonder what you want on this mailing list besides trolling.
Plonk
Well AJ, I still don't know which place you occupy in the organigramm (if any) but that "Plonk" didn't earn you a lot of credits. /Per Jessen, Zürich -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
2010/6/8 Per Jessen <per@computer.org>:
Well AJ, I still don't know which place you occupy in the organigramm (if any) but that "Plonk" didn't earn you a lot of credits.
This has to be a joke, I hope, really. It doesn't take a lot to understand AJ's role at Novell, just use Google. This said, what should AJ do? Should he accept the non-constructive criticism of someone that comes saying we should be absolutely independent from Novell just because: - He does not like Novell - Novell signed a deal with Microsoft (seems to be the reason of the end of the world...) - One day, maybe, Novell could not support the project anymore (the same thing could be said of all the projects backed by companies: fedora, ubuntu, mandriva, openoffice, mysql, ...) ? The last point might be valuable, but the way he puts things makes his point invalid. He suggested to completely change the nature of the project, in a manner that is not realistic and probably not even interesting for the openSUSE community. The need for more independence has been clear for a while, and both Novell and the openSUSE board have been working to that trying to set up the openSUSE foundation. What is not clear is the request of being completely independent from Novell, as if Novell were the absolute evil. Until today, if you are using openSUSE, you can say thank you to Novell, which surely made mistakes as all of us, but also took almost all the effort and the risk of developing openSUSE. I honestly did not see an army of volunteers when the community was looking for them, and it is a bit childish to claim "it's due to the deal", because if a contributor is really motivated to do something, he tries to understand before judging, as we did. About credit, I don't think AJ's merits are under discussion here, and in a moderated environment this discussion would have ended long before this. Who loses credit is who talks about the project without even knowing the basics, without having an idea of things that have been under his eyes for years (see sponsorship, to cite a simple example), and then suggests changes that he might like, but would simply risk to compromise the project much more than the potential risks he is talking about. Best, A -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Tue, 8 Jun 2010 15:32:28 -0500, Alberto Passalacqua <albert.passalacqua@gmail.com> wrote:
2010/6/8 Per Jessen <per@computer.org>:
Well AJ, I still don't know which place you occupy in the organigramm (if any) but that "Plonk" didn't earn you a lot of credits.
This has to be a joke, I hope, really. It doesn't take a lot to understand AJ's role at Novell, just use Google.
This said, what should AJ do? Should he accept the non-constructive criticism of someone that comes saying we should be absolutely independent from Novell just because:
- He does not like Novell - Novell signed a deal with Microsoft (seems to be the reason of the end of the world...) - One day, maybe, Novell could not support the project anymore (the same thing could be said of all the projects backed by companies: fedora, ubuntu, mandriva, openoffice, mysql, ...) ?
The last point might be valuable, but the way he puts things makes his point invalid. He suggested to completely change the nature of the project, in a manner that is not realistic and probably not even interesting for the openSUSE community.
The need for more independence has been clear for a while, and both Novell and the openSUSE board have been working to that trying to set up the openSUSE foundation. What is not clear is the request of being completely independent from Novell, as if Novell were the absolute evil. Until today, if you are using openSUSE, you can say thank you to Novell, which surely made mistakes as all of us, but also took almost all the effort and the risk of developing openSUSE. I honestly did not see an army of volunteers when the community was looking for them, and it is a bit childish to claim "it's due to the deal", because if a contributor is really motivated to do something, he tries to understand before judging, as we did.
About credit, I don't think AJ's merits are under discussion here, and in a moderated environment this discussion would have ended long before this. Who loses credit is who talks about the project without even knowing the basics, without having an idea of things that have been under his eyes for years (see sponsorship, to cite a simple example), and then suggests changes that he might like, but would simply risk to compromise the project much more than the potential risks he is talking about.
Your're wildly overreacting to my comments. As for sponsors, what percentage of the total budget do the non-Novell sponsors contribute? Is it more than 5%? If not, they don't help much, other than serving as poster children for project propaganda. The majority of opensuse development is done by salaried developers paid handsome sums by Novell. But the project calls for unpaid volunteers to do work too. Fine, I don't have a problem with that. But if you expect me to donate my time, the project needs a self sustaining infrastructure that can survive without a major corporate sponsor. I'm not wasting my time on a project that can go down the drain, because the major sponsor pulls out. Since you missed it, or refuse to read it, let me say it again. I'm not crusading against Novell, I don't care if the KGB sponsors opensuse. But as long as the project uses infrastructure which relies on a single major sponsor, the project is too fragile to attract a large community of unpaid developers. You can change that, but you will have to open your mind and change your provincial attitude first. -- Web mail, POP3, and SMTP http://www.beewyz.com/freeaccounts.php -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Tuesday 08 June 2010 22:06:28 Per Jessen wrote:
Well AJ, I still don't know which place you occupy in the organigramm (if any) but that "Plonk" didn't earn you a lot of credits.
It did with me, I laughed, out loud. I see a 20 mail thread with nothing but trolling after his first one or two posts. I wonder if I would always be so reserved to simply plonk people. Discussion is one thing, repeating your troll position over and over and over is quite something else. And the original poster in my opinion definitely falls under the something else category. There's a reason that the well known phrase "don't feed the trolls" exists. If you don't give him the attention he seems to be craving, he will go away. Cheers the noo, Graham -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Tue, 8 Jun 2010 23:34:44 +0200, Graham Anderson <graham.anderson@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tuesday 08 June 2010 22:06:28 Per Jessen wrote:
Well AJ, I still don't know which place you occupy in the organigramm (if any) but that "Plonk" didn't earn you a lot of credits.
It did with me, I laughed, out loud.
I see a 20 mail thread with nothing but trolling after his first one or two posts. I wonder if I would always be so reserved to simply plonk people.
Discussion is one thing, repeating your troll position over and over and over is quite something else.
The cheerleaders have arrived. Go team! -- Web mail, POP3, and SMTP http://www.beewyz.com/freeaccounts.php -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
2010/6/8 Trifle Menot <triflemenot@beewyz.com>:
If Novell pulls the power plug, your project infrastructure immediately collapses. The "community" is not strong enough to step in and turn the power back on. As long as that's true, you're still a fetus.
Why should Novell "pull the power plug"? If you read the last financial reports of Novell, SUSE Linux is one of their strong points, and it's not that SUSE Linux Enterprise comes out from nowhere thanks to some magic. It is based on openSUSE, and I feel free to believe openSUSE has a nice role in making SLE better, with a wider and free testing base. With all the criticism I had for Novell, and sometime I still have about some aspect, I have to say they tried hard to make openSUSE more open, sometime it worked, sometime it did not, but the effort was more on their side than on the community side. Novell, in spite of all the noise and the attacks, continued supporting open source project more than many others who talks with a loud voice and judge all the time. I'm clearly not going to say everything has been perfect, but Novell surely deserves a bit more respect, instead of being considered only the company that "could unplug the power cord", because until now it has been the company who has kept that power cord plugged in, while facing a lot of hostility from many parts. You say the community is not strong enough. True or not, Novell has a limited role in changing this, and surely is a significant part of the community with its contributions. The community can become stronger if external people contributes and keeps contributing. P.S. We had so many discussions about the Novell/Microsoft deal that ended up nowhere already. It is a fact that the deal was not the disaster someone was foreseeing. Let's move on and talk of the topics of actual interest for openSUSE. Thanks. :-) Best, Alberto -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Tue, 8 Jun 2010 09:45:00 -0500, Alberto Passalacqua <albert.passalacqua@gmail.com> wrote:
P.S. We had so many discussions about the Novell/Microsoft deal that ended up nowhere already. It is a fact that the deal was not the disaster someone was foreseeing. Let's move on and talk of the topics of actual interest for openSUSE. Thanks. :-)
As long as opensuse is a child of Novell, the politics of the deal will impede the growth of opensuse. Independence is necessary for attaining maturity. -- Web mail, POP3, and SMTP http://www.beewyz.com/freeaccounts.php -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
As long as opensuse is a child of Novell, the politics of the deal will impede the growth of opensuse. Independence is necessary for attaining maturity.
This clearly shows you didn't understand the deal itself, what came out of it and quite some other things. I still remember big statements about the deal and its consequence (a big and famous Linux-only company said it would have meant the end of Novell in one year, to cite one example). The reality is that all the negative predictions about the deal were, considering today's reality, wrong. There are many open source projects that are not independent from other companies. Fedora depends on Red Hat, Ubuntu depends on Canonical, and so on. Depending on Novell, or on other companies is exactly the same. It's not the deal to make any difference. Other companies signed similar deals, maybe better masked, but substantially similar, and the fact there is a lot of noise only around Novell should make you think a bit more about the reasons of why this happened. If you know someone with the financial resources Novell is investing in Linux and openSUSE, and with a lot of desire to sponsor openSUSE, feel free to tell us however ;-) Best, A. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Tue, 8 Jun 2010 11:55:28 -0500, Alberto Passalacqua <albert.passalacqua@gmail.com> wrote:
If you know someone with the financial resources Novell is investing in Linux and openSUSE, and with a lot of desire to sponsor openSUSE, feel free to tell us however ;-)
What I'm telling you is that no one ever will, as long as Novell pays for the power. Debian exists without a primary sponsor. Maybe that leap is too big for opensuse to make. But ask yourselves why. -- Web mail, POP3, and SMTP http://www.beewyz.com/freeaccounts.php -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
2010/6/8 Trifle Menot <triflemenot@beewyz.com>:
If you know someone with the financial resources Novell is investing in Linux and openSUSE, and with a lot of desire to sponsor openSUSE, feel free to tell us however ;-)
What I'm telling you is that no one ever will, as long as Novell pays for the power.
You have been proven wrong already. The only reason I can see why sponsors do not contribute is fiscal, since Novell is a company, and the contribution would not be subject to special fiscal treatments. This hopefully will be fixed once the foundation is in place, being it a non-profit organization. This reason is however very far from having Novell involved or from the existence of the Novell/Microsoft deal, which clearly is a point you are misusing to support your ideas.
Debian exists without a primary sponsor. Maybe that leap is too big for opensuse to make. But ask yourselves why.
I don't think openSUSE aims to be as Debian. The goals of the project are different, as well as the target. These differences are part of the reason why I use openSUSE and not Debian. I see a distribution backed by a company with a strong expertise in the field as an advantage, not as a problem. It has direct consequences on the quality, the usability, the possibility of obtaining commercial support, and, in the end, of sustainability of the project itself. Best, -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
El 08/06/10 14:06, Alberto Passalacqua escribió:
Which clearly is a point you are misusing to support your ideas.
got the point Alberto, it is a a "fallacy of irrelevance". -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Hi Cristian :) Whoever uses the deal as an explanation for something should first look at what happened with come criticism. The deal in itself is a very standard form of cooperation between companies with similar interests. The noise was not caused by Novell and by Microsoft, but by the Linux community itself. The same Linux community that, on one hand claims to be open minded, but on the other hand is unable to accept this kind of cooperation. They might like MS or not, but they should judge on what the deal lead to, and not on opinions and potential risks. I think It did not happen, in part because many did not understand the terms of the deal, and in part because someone in the community used it as to support his own ideas and goals. If there is any damage caused by the deal to Linux, and I still have to see where this damage is, I would start looking for the responsible in the community, beginning with those that made a lot to disparage who is actually trying to work and do something to improve Linux for its users. Just my two cents, of course :) Best, A. 2010/6/8 Cristian Rodríguez <crrodriguez@opensuse.org>:
El 08/06/10 14:06, Alberto Passalacqua escribió:
Which clearly is a point you are misusing to support your ideas.
got the point Alberto, it is a a "fallacy of irrelevance". -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
-- Alberto Passalacqua -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Tue, 08 Jun 2010 17:41:07 +0000 Trifle Menot <triflemenot@beewyz.com> wrote: Hi I have to ask do you actually use openSUSE or linux derivatives? Second please remove the commercial spam from your signature. -- Cheers Malcolm °¿° (Linux Counter #276890) SUSE Linux Enterprise Desktop 11 (x86_64) Kernel 2.6.32.12-0.7-default up 21:44, 2 users, load average: 0.05, 0.24, 0.20 GPU GeForce 8600 GTS Silent - CUDA Driver Version: 195.36.15 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
2010/6/8 Malcolm <malcolm_lewis@bellsouth.net>:
Second please remove the commercial spam from your signature.
It might be added by his provider automatically. So please be patient :) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Tue, 8 Jun 2010 13:17:22 -0500, Malcolm <malcolm_lewis@bellsouth.net> wrote:
I have to ask do you actually use openSUSE or linux derivatives? Second please remove the commercial spam from your signature.
If you read all my messages you would know the answer. Why should the sig trouble anyone. You're whining about a one line sig that mentions a free email service? What is your problem? -- Web mail, POP3, and SMTP http://www.beewyz.com/freeaccounts.php -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On 8 June 2010 21:00, Trifle Menot <triflemenot@beewyz.com> wrote:
On Tue, 8 Jun 2010 13:17:22 -0500, Malcolm <malcolm_lewis@bellsouth.net> wrote:
I have to ask do you actually use openSUSE or linux derivatives? Second please remove the commercial spam from your signature.
If you read all my messages you would know the answer. Why should the sig trouble anyone. You're whining about a one line sig that mentions a free email service? What is your problem?
-- Web mail, POP3, and SMTP http://www.beewyz.com/freeaccounts.php
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Because I like to be optimistic... I think that this thread is really interesting. At least, our community is really living its own life. And that's prettynice :-) Greetings, Agemen. -- OrbisGIS developer. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Le mardi 08 juin 2010, à 17:41 +0000, Trifle Menot a écrit :
Debian exists without a primary sponsor. Maybe that leap is too big for opensuse to make. But ask yourselves why.
Oh, I have an answer for that: because openSUSE has much less developers than openSUSE :-) Seriously. If you want to have openSUSE "independent", then the first step is to actually contribute so that openSUSE can live without Novell resources. I understand that you don't want to contribute until it's independent, but I hope you realize that it's a chicken and egg problem, in that case. The Foundation the board is working on would hopefully help people see that this is something that is getting worked on, and that we (openSUSE community) care about. Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Tue, 8 Jun 2010 23:15:15 +0200, Vincent Untz <vuntz@opensuse.org> wrote:
If you want to have openSUSE "independent", then the first step is to actually contribute so that openSUSE can live without Novell resources. I understand that you don't want to contribute until it's independent, but I hope you realize that it's a chicken and egg problem, in that case.
You want me to donate. But I don't have any money, and you won't pay me. Since Novell has the money, let them grow the chicken. I want to see a full grown chicken first.
The Foundation the board is working on would hopefully help people see that this is something that is getting worked on, and that we (openSUSE community) care about.
That's nice, but what goals are defined? I gather from this thread they are somewhat vague. -- Web mail, POP3, and SMTP http://www.beewyz.com/freeaccounts.php -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
2010/6/8 Trifle Menot <triflemenot@beewyz.com>:
On Tue, 8 Jun 2010 23:15:15 +0200, Vincent Untz <vuntz@opensuse.org> wrote:
You want me to donate. But I don't have any money, and you won't pay me. Since Novell has the money, let them grow the chicken. I want to see a full grown chicken first.
It's not that Debian, your project taken as reference, was created with this approach. There are many ways to sponsor a project, without donating a cent. If you just want to sponsor openSUSE, you can take part to the community, and help here and there, according to your knowledge and time, and in the meanwhile you also know new people and have fun. If there are enough external contributors, the project is automatically more independent. This clearly does not solve the problem at the infrastructure level, but it is a step. However, I guess it's time to stop taking part to this thread. It is quite clear nothing will come out of it. Bye, A. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Tue, 8 Jun 2010 16:45:23 -0500, Alberto Passalacqua <albert.passalacqua@gmail.com> wrote:
2010/6/8 Trifle Menot <triflemenot@beewyz.com>:
On Tue, 8 Jun 2010 23:15:15 +0200, Vincent Untz <vuntz@opensuse.org> wrote:
You want me to donate. But I don't have any money, and you won't pay me. Since Novell has the money, let them grow the chicken. I want to see a full grown chicken first.
It's not that Debian, your project taken as reference, was created with this approach. There are many ways to sponsor a project, without donating a cent. If you just want to sponsor openSUSE, you can take part to the community, and help here and there, according to your knowledge and time, and in the meanwhile you also know new people and have fun. If there are enough external contributors, the project is automatically more independent. This clearly does not solve the problem at the infrastructure level, but it is a step.
However, I guess it's time to stop taking part to this thread. It is quite clear nothing will come out of it.
Then why did you reply? "Listen up, I'm saying the last word now ..." -- Web mail, POP3, and SMTP http://www.beewyz.com/freeaccounts.php -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Le mardi 08 juin 2010, à 21:39 +0000, Trifle Menot a écrit :
On Tue, 8 Jun 2010 23:15:15 +0200, Vincent Untz <vuntz@opensuse.org> wrote:
If you want to have openSUSE "independent", then the first step is to actually contribute so that openSUSE can live without Novell resources. I understand that you don't want to contribute until it's independent, but I hope you realize that it's a chicken and egg problem, in that case.
You want me to donate. But I don't have any money, and you won't pay me. Since Novell has the money, let them grow the chicken. I want to see a full grown chicken first.
It's not about the money. It's about time. You're taking the Debian example, and I'll point out that nearly none of the more than 1000 Debian Developers are paid to work on Debian. I'll also point out that we have many contributors working on openSUSE in their spare time, including (but not limited to, far from that) Novell employees. That's because all those people want openSUSE to succeed, and they believe the right way to achieve that goal is to help, instead of waiting.
The Foundation the board is working on would hopefully help people see that this is something that is getting worked on, and that we (openSUSE community) care about.
That's nice, but what goals are defined? I gather from this thread they are somewhat vague.
Goals of the Foundation? I guess that would be to manage the legal and financial aspects of the openSUSE project, as well as to help the project achieve its goals in general. Now, if you're asking what are the goals of the openSUSE project, then that's what the Strategy team is working on right now. They should have something ready soon :-) Of course, if you have other ideas of goals, please share them. Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Tue, 8 Jun 2010 23:52:55 +0200, Vincent Untz <vuntz@opensuse.org> wrote:
It's not about the money. It's about time. You're taking the Debian example, and I'll point out that nearly none of the more than 1000 Debian Developers are paid to work on Debian.
That's not strictly true. Some of them are paid to work on Ubuntu, and that work filters back to Debian. So indirectly, some of them are paid.
Now, if you're asking what are the goals of the openSUSE project, then that's what the Strategy team is working on right now. They should have something ready soon :-)
Of course, if you have other ideas of goals, please share them.
Some people think trolls are anyone who says anything they don't like. There may be a clinical term for that. If I can't argue without being called a troll, then it's not a community, it's a clique. -- Web mail, POP3, and SMTP http://www.beewyz.com/freeaccounts.php -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Le mardi 08 juin 2010, à 22:07 +0000, Trifle Menot a écrit :
On Tue, 8 Jun 2010 23:52:55 +0200, Vincent Untz <vuntz@opensuse.org> wrote:
It's not about the money. It's about time. You're taking the Debian example, and I'll point out that nearly none of the more than 1000 Debian Developers are paid to work on Debian.
That's not strictly true. Some of them are paid to work on Ubuntu, and that work filters back to Debian. So indirectly, some of them are paid.
Not all the work being done on Ubuntu goes back to Debian. Part of it does, indeed. And that's one of the reasons I said "nearly none" and not none in my sentence above :-) I'm happy to debate on how many Canonical employees contribute to Debian, but I don't think opensuse-project is the proper forum for this.
Now, if you're asking what are the goals of the openSUSE project, then that's what the Strategy team is working on right now. They should have something ready soon :-)
Of course, if you have other ideas of goals, please share them.
Some people think trolls are anyone who says anything they don't like. There may be a clinical term for that. If I can't argue without being called a troll, then it's not a community, it's a clique.
I never implied you were trolling in the text you're quoting (nor in my replies to you). I'd appreciate if you could avoid putting words in my mouth. Thanks, Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Wed, 9 Jun 2010 00:13:06 +0200, Vincent Untz <vuntz@opensuse.org> wrote:
Of course, if you have other ideas of goals, please share them.
Some people think trolls are anyone who says anything they don't like. There may be a clinical term for that. If I can't argue without being called a troll, then it's not a community, it's a clique.
I never implied you were trolling in the text you're quoting (nor in my replies to you). I'd appreciate if you could avoid putting words in my mouth.
Vincent, I wasn't talking about you. The accusation was made by others, who seem to feel they represent the "community." I mentioned it because you invited me to share my ideas of goals. Which I already did, and got accused of trolling for it. A troll doesn't know when to stop. I do. -- Web mail, POP3, and SMTP http://www.beewyz.com/freeaccounts.php -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Trifle Menot schreef:
On Tue, 8 Jun 2010 09:45:00 -0500, Alberto Passalacqua <albert.passalacqua@gmail.com> wrote:
P.S. We had so many discussions about the Novell/Microsoft deal that ended up nowhere already. It is a fact that the deal was not the disaster someone was foreseeing. Let's move on and talk of the topics of actual interest for openSUSE. Thanks. :-)
As long as opensuse is a child of Novell, the politics of the deal will impede the growth of opensuse. Independence is necessary for attaining maturity.
For most 'outsiders', that deal was the worst case of *treason*, ever performed against the opensource world..... meaning suse became part of the 'enemy'.. The only player on the market, capable to defeat M$, was bought and sold... Foundations of open source shaken.... If you cann't beat them, buy them.... With this deal a curse went over suse, and many many people turned away from it. This is a fact, not to be denied... The only way to get over it is: Getting independent... But the damage is done, and we face the consequences every day... And i donot know, if Windows 7 is born out of that deal, but it is the best OS build by MS until now. But OK, done is done, nothing can change that now... Being independent does not mean Novell cannot sponsor oS, or lets it use the infrastructure... What of becoming a parter from Novell? If Novell is for sale, can the community buy it? What is it oS needs, besides the infrastructure and a lot of money? -- Enjoy your time around, Oddball, aka M9. OS: Linux 2.6.27.19-3.2-default x86_64 Huidige gebruiker: oddball@AMD64x2-sfn1 Systeem: openSUSE 11.1 (x86_64) KDE: 4.2.1 (KDE 4.2.1) "release 103" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Le 09/06/2010 11:12, Oddball a écrit :
This is a fact, not to be denied...
how ridiculous... jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://www.facebook.com/pages/I-support-the-Linux-Documentation-Project/3720... http://www.facebook.com/pages/The-fan-page-of-Claire-Dodin/106485119372062?v... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
jdd schreef:
Le 09/06/2010 11:12, Oddball a écrit :
This is a fact, not to be denied...
how ridiculous...
jdd
You think so? And that is why you don't react on the questions asked? -- Enjoy your time around, Oddball, aka M9. OS: Linux 2.6.27.19-3.2-default x86_64 Huidige gebruiker: oddball@AMD64x2-sfn1 Systeem: openSUSE 11.1 (x86_64) KDE: 4.2.1 (KDE 4.2.1) "release 103" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Oddball schreef:
jdd schreef:
Le 09/06/2010 11:12, Oddball a écrit :
This is a fact, not to be denied...
how ridiculous...
jdd
You think so? And that is why you don't react on the questions asked?
It is also a fact that the Dutch were slavetraders...which cannot be denied. You would find that rediculous too? What i am trying to say is that the facts have to be accepted, before being able to change the consequences... Same as with elections, if many people choose a certain party, that party will grow. If people decide to give their vote to another party, the previous one will shrink... That is what i mean by 'the curse' and its consequences, not to be denied, to be able to crawl from underneath its consequences... Fact is that oS has been able to stand, in reduced form, against collapsing opinion. So, it has managed to regain selfconsiousness, and being aware of the qualities and nessesity to exist. Eneveteble will be, as allready is in progress, a selfsustaining basis to keep the legacy safe: The Foundation. Because developing software is more than making bucks (and bugs), and can be a benefit to us all. Choices are offcourse free to buy 'dictated' software, so the hardware can be sold. But now hardware has to become more 'open' also, else it won't be sold. People will buy whatever is useble, if they can afford it, in a changing market. -- Enjoy your time around, Oddball, aka M9. OS: Linux 2.6.27.19-3.2-default x86_64 Huidige gebruiker: oddball@AMD64x2-sfn1 Systeem: openSUSE 11.1 (x86_64) KDE: 4.2.1 (KDE 4.2.1) "release 103" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Wed, 2010-06-09 at 11:12 +0200, Oddball wrote:
Being independent does not mean Novell cannot sponsor oS, or lets it use the infrastructure...
In fact, that's where we are, as AJ pointed out. Novell has moved from being a "controller" of openSUSE to being a partner/sponsor of openSUSE. But apparently, some people just can't see past that.
What of becoming a parter from Novell? If Novell is for sale, can the community buy it?
Sure. Last time I checked, the Novell price tag was around $2.5 Billion. Pocket change for us in the community! :-)
What is it oS needs, besides the infrastructure and a lot of money?
Contributions! Contributions! Contributions! Doesn't really matter if we have money and infrastructure if we don't have people stepping up to take the lead on various tasks.
Bryen M Yunashko openSUSE Board Member -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Bryen M. Yunashko schreef:
On Wed, 2010-06-09 at 11:12 +0200, Oddball wrote:
Being independent does not mean Novell cannot sponsor oS, or lets it use the infrastructure...
In fact, that's where we are, as AJ pointed out. Novell has moved from being a "controller" of openSUSE to being a partner/sponsor of openSUSE. But apparently, some people just can't see past that.
What of becoming a parter from Novell? If Novell is for sale, can the community buy it?
Sure. Last time I checked, the Novell price tag was around $2.5 Billion. Pocket change for us in the community! :-)
Lol... How about shares, not sold on the open market, representing certain 'value'? Meaning shares that can be bought if 'part of the community'?
What is it oS needs, besides the infrastructure and a lot of money?
Contributions! Contributions! Contributions! Doesn't really matter if we have money and infrastructure if we don't have people stepping up to take the lead on various tasks.
Wher can i become aware of these 'various tasks'?
Bryen M Yunashko openSUSE Board Member
-- Enjoy your time around, Oddball, aka M9. OS: Linux 2.6.27.19-3.2-default x86_64 Huidige gebruiker: oddball@AMD64x2-sfn1 Systeem: openSUSE 11.1 (x86_64) KDE: 4.2.1 (KDE 4.2.1) "release 103" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Being independent does not mean Novell cannot sponsor oS,
or lets it
use the infrastructure...
In fact, that's where we are, as AJ pointed out. Novell has moved from being a "controller" of openSUSE to being a partner/sponsor of openSUSE. But apparently, some people just can't see past that.
There's no such thing as independence, just diferent varietes of dependence. We can choose on whom we are dependent, and for what, and how closely "bound" we are. We can't choose to not be dependent on anybody unless we choose to go live in the woods, and grow / kill our own food (dependent on the continuing natural environment and a legal system to prevent our murder) and make all our own clothes and tools (dependent upon our forebears for education). Many would balk at dependence upon Microsoft, and I agree with that. I see no sign that either oS or Novell are dependent upon Microsoft, although there are direct and indirect relationships. oS is dependent upon Novell for the resources which have been described. This could be changed although no-one seems to have sufficient interest in finding an alternate onto whom we could switch our dependence. Why do so when there are other more important and interesting things to work on?
What is it oS needs, besides the infrastructure and a lot of money?
Contributions! Contributions! Contributions! Doesn't really matter if we have money and infrastructure if we don't have people stepping up to take the lead on various tasks.
i.e. resources in different forms. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Administrator schreef:
Being independent does not mean Novell cannot sponsor oS,
or lets it
use the infrastructure...
In fact, that's where we are, as AJ pointed out. Novell has moved from being a "controller" of openSUSE to being a partner/sponsor of openSUSE. But apparently, some people just can't see past that.
There's no such thing as independence, just diferent varietes of dependence. We can choose on whom we are dependent, and for what, and how closely "bound" we are. We can't choose to not be dependent on anybody unless we choose to go live in the woods, and grow / kill our own food (dependent on the continuing natural environment and a legal system to prevent our murder) and make all our own clothes and tools (dependent upon our forebears for education).
Sure, you are right about that. In the universe all things and not things, are dependable upon one another, being aware of that fact or not.... I think however, to define independent in this case as 'unit', container, like the Foundation, which will be the legal person openSUSE. To be seen for everybody as an 'Independant Body'.. In this foundation, all the members can and cannot do is written, as offcourse the Aim, and how to achieve this. The means choosen to be appropriet to achieve the goal(s). Protecting the goals from personal failures. This is the best decision i heard of lately, and deserves the utmost care, to get the realy nessesary words exactly on paper the way they should, as they become 'law'. (put as less restrictions to acting as possible here..)
Many would balk at dependence upon Microsoft, and I agree with that. I see no sign that either oS or Novell are dependent upon Microsoft, although there are direct and indirect relationships. oS is dependent upon Novell for the resources which have been described. This could be changed although no-one seems to have sufficient interest in finding an alternate onto whom we could switch our dependence. Why do so when there are other more important and interesting things to work on?
The more important and interesting things should be done from the right basis: The Foundation.
What is it oS needs, besides the infrastructure and a lot of money?
Contributions! Contributions! Contributions! Doesn't really matter if we have money and infrastructure if we don't have people stepping up to take the lead on various tasks.
i.e. resources in different forms.
exactly, they can be attracted as soon as oS has become a legal Body. -- Enjoy your time around, Oddball, aka M9. OS: Linux 2.6.27.19-3.2-default x86_64 Huidige gebruiker: oddball@AMD64x2-sfn1 Systeem: openSUSE 11.1 (x86_64) KDE: 4.2.1 (KDE 4.2.1) "release 103" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Bryen M. Yunashko wrote:
Contributions! Contributions! Contributions! Doesn't really matter if we have money and infrastructure if we don't have people stepping up to take the lead on various tasks.
Is there an "open positions" notice somewhere? /Per Jessen, Zürich -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Wed, Jun 09, 2010 at 03:20:07PM +0200, Per Jessen wrote:
Bryen M. Yunashko wrote:
Contributions! Contributions! Contributions! Doesn't really matter if we have money and infrastructure if we don't have people stepping up to take the lead on various tasks.
Is there an "open positions" notice somewhere?
Not necessary, you are already accepted. Just login to: build.opensuse.org, features.opensuse.org, bugzilla.novell.com, forums.opensuse.org.... Ciao, Marcus -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Wednesday 09 June 2010 15:23:31 Marcus Meissner wrote:
On Wed, Jun 09, 2010 at 03:20:07PM +0200, Per Jessen wrote:
Bryen M. Yunashko wrote:
Contributions! Contributions! Contributions! Doesn't really matter if we have money and infrastructure if we don't have people stepping up to take the lead on various tasks.
Is there an "open positions" notice somewhere?
Not necessary, you are already accepted.
Just login to:
build.opensuse.org, features.opensuse.org, bugzilla.novell.com, forums.opensuse.org....
Yeah that one as well - Per can help wherever he wants and ask for help here if needed. I just think that list of bugs is too large for anybody as a start and agree with Per we should explain more what kind of involved is possible, e.g. regarding bugzilla: * screening of bugs * fixing bugs * cleaning up the queues Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, Program Manager openSUSE, aj@{novell.com,opensuse.org} Twitter: jaegerandi | Identica: jaegerandi SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126
Andreas Jaeger wrote:
On Wednesday 09 June 2010 15:23:31 Marcus Meissner wrote:
On Wed, Jun 09, 2010 at 03:20:07PM +0200, Per Jessen wrote:
Bryen M. Yunashko wrote:
Contributions! Contributions! Contributions! Doesn't really matter if we have money and infrastructure if we don't have people stepping up to take the lead on various tasks.
Is there an "open positions" notice somewhere?
Not necessary, you are already accepted.
Just login to:
build.opensuse.org, features.opensuse.org, bugzilla.novell.com, forums.opensuse.org....
Yeah that one as well - Per can help wherever he wants and ask for help here if needed.
I just think that list of bugs is too large for anybody as a start and agree with Per we should explain more what kind of involved is possible, e.g. regarding bugzilla: * screening of bugs * fixing bugs * cleaning up the queues
A while ago I subscribed to the 'community-screening' list (thinking it was bugzilla related), but I have not yet seen any traffic. Still, I think many would appreciate an explanation of what kind of involvement is possible and how it is done/organised/etc. (not just wrt bugzilla, but in general). /Per Jessen, Zürich -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Check the ML opensuse-testing. They do regular testing for new milestones. 2010/6/9 Per Jessen <per@computer.org>:
A while ago I subscribed to the 'community-screening' list (thinking it was bugzilla related), but I have not yet seen any traffic. Still, I think many would appreciate an explanation of what kind of involvement is possible and how it is done/organised/etc. (not just wrt bugzilla, but in general).
/Per Jessen, Zürich -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Alberto Passalacqua wrote:
Check the ML opensuse-testing. They do regular testing for new milestones.
So do I and I am also subscribed to opensuse-testing - afaict, that list is primarily for announcements. /Per Jessen, Zürich -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
2010/6/9 Per Jessen <per@computer.org>:
So do I and I am also subscribed to opensuse-testing - afaict, that list is primarily for announcements.
They have also an IRC meeting from time to time. Best, A. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Marcus Meissner wrote:
On Wed, Jun 09, 2010 at 03:20:07PM +0200, Per Jessen wrote:
Bryen M. Yunashko wrote:
Contributions! Contributions! Contributions! Doesn't really matter if we have money and infrastructure if we don't have people stepping up to take the lead on various tasks.
Is there an "open positions" notice somewhere?
Not necessary, you are already accepted.
Just login to:
build.opensuse.org, features.opensuse.org, bugzilla.novell.com, forums.opensuse.org....
Haha, good one! (although I'm not quite sure how to take the lead on bugzilla.novell.com :-) ) /Per Jessen, Zürich -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On 06/09/2010 at 3:39 PM, Per Jessen <per@computer.org> wrote: Marcus Meissner wrote:
On Wed, Jun 09, 2010 at 03:20:07PM +0200, Per Jessen wrote:
Bryen M. Yunashko wrote:
Contributions! Contributions! Contributions! Doesn't really matter if we have money and infrastructure if we don't have people stepping up to take the lead on various tasks.
Is there an "open positions" notice somewhere?
Not necessary, you are already accepted.
Just login to:
build.opensuse.org, features.opensuse.org, bugzilla.novell.com, forums.opensuse.org....
Haha, good one! (although I'm not quite sure how to take the lead on bugzilla.novell.com :-) )
Per, There would be plenty of things you can do on Bugzilla, which would not even require coding, or anything. Like: confirm bugs, look if you have all the information in a bug to be able to reproduce it. Very often this is the lengthiest process for the person that want to fix a bug: chasing all the information to be able to reproduce the problem (which very often is a first step to the idea for the solution). Or often a bug remains open during Factory development. As packages get updated, the bugs get 'outdated' and fix themselves. Work together with the reporters and self-testing to check if bugs are still an issue in latest snapshots. Hope to have you (and others!) motivated to go down this road. It helped me surely to get a good grip in the system. Then following some of the reports to see what the proposed solution was at the end (can be skipped of course, but I was interested in that). Dominique -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Dominique Leuenberger wrote:
Per,
There would be plenty of things you can do on Bugzilla, which would not even require coding, or anything. Like: confirm bugs, look if you have all the information in a bug to be able to reproduce it.
Hi Dominique that's what I do for the stuff I report, and when I come across bugs I also recognize. If I can reproduce, I always provide the info. Are you also talking about others peoples bugs here?
Very often this is the lengthiest process for the person that want to fix a bug: chasing all the information to be able to reproduce the problem (which very often is a first step to the idea for the solution).
Or often a bug remains open during Factory development. As packages get updated, the bugs get 'outdated' and fix themselves. Work together with the reporters and self-testing to check if bugs are still an issue in latest snapshots.
Isn't that the normal approach? /Per Jessen, Zürich -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Wednesday 09 June 2010 15:20:07 Per Jessen wrote:
Bryen M. Yunashko wrote:
Contributions! Contributions! Contributions! Doesn't really matter if we have money and infrastructure if we don't have people stepping up to take the lead on various tasks.
Is there an "open positions" notice somewhere?
A valid point - and something that I proposed for the new wiki: Team pages with open tasks. Hope to see it soon live. Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, Program Manager openSUSE, aj@{novell.com,opensuse.org} Twitter: jaegerandi | Identica: jaegerandi SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126
Le mercredi 09 juin 2010, à 15:20 +0200, Per Jessen a écrit :
Bryen M. Yunashko wrote:
Contributions! Contributions! Contributions! Doesn't really matter if we have money and infrastructure if we don't have people stepping up to take the lead on various tasks.
Is there an "open positions" notice somewhere?
FWIW, some teams regularly post requests for help on their mailing list. I know it's happening for GNOME, at least :-) Also, if there's an area you're interested in, a good first step is to contact the people already working on this to see if there's anything you can help with. (and yes, we should document that better -- but it's also information that gets out-of-date quickly, so it's a lot of work) Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
2010/6/9 Oddball <monkey9@iae.nl>:
For most 'outsiders', that deal was the worst case of *treason*, ever performed against the opensource world..... meaning suse became part of the 'enemy'.. The only player on the market, capable to defeat M$, was bought and sold... Foundations of open source shaken.... If you cann't beat them, buy them....
That's a problem of the Linux community more than of the deal itself. If you interpret a cooperation between two companies as a betrayal, and you see enemies in what are actually competitors in the business world, it's not the deal to be the problem, but the point of view that brings you to think that way. It is something the Linux community should work on, in the interest of Linux, and with a lot of criticism towards many of the extreme positions someone has. For the chronicles, MS did not buy Novell, who kept contributing to many open projects, more than many other noisy member of the community who criticized the deal. The work done on openoffice, mono and moonlight is unique and useful (to cite an example, I can have my CAD tools on Linux now because who makes them uses .NET, and they used mono on Linux). The Linux community should simply learn not to judge only by the name of the partner, which is not necessarily bad.
With this deal a curse went over suse, and many many people turned away from it. This is a fact, not to be denied...
I would reduce that "many" to "some". Some famous name left, yes. The project goes on. In the end that is what counts.
But the damage is done, and we face the consequences every day... And i donot know, if Windows 7 is born out of that deal, but it is the best OS build by MS until now.
Do you really think there is any connection? ;-) Best, A. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Wed, 9 Jun 2010, Oddball wrote:
The only player on the market, capable to defeat M$, was bought and sold... Foundations of open source shaken.... If you cann't beat them, buy them....
Novell still is an independent corporation, its stock being publicly traded as others have pointed out). And you'll have to ask Steve Ballmer, but I would be rather surprised if Novell or openSUSE are on his top three list of concerns or have ever been.
And i donot know, if Windows 7 is born out of that deal, but it is the best OS build by MS until now.
This is completely unfounded. In fact, it is outright silly.
What of becoming a parter from Novell?
I'd appreciate openSUSE growing into such a rule, the keyword being "growing".
If Novell is for sale, can the community buy it?
The community just needs Some two, three million €. Stock ticker is NOVL.
What is it oS needs, besides the infrastructure and a lot of money?
Contributors. Gerald -- Dr. Gerald Pfeifer gp@novell.com | SUSE Linux Products GmbH Director Product Management | HRB 16746 (AG Nuremberg) SUSE Linux Enterprise, openSUSE, Appliances | GF Markus Rex
Gerald Pfeifer schreef:
On Wed, 9 Jun 2010, Oddball wrote:
The only player on the market, capable to defeat M$, was bought and sold... Foundations of open source shaken.... If you cann't beat them, buy them....
Novell still is an independent corporation, its stock being publicly traded as others have pointed out). And you'll have to ask Steve Ballmer, but I would be rather surprised if Novell or openSUSE are on his top three list of concerns or have ever been.
And i donot know, if Windows 7 is born out of that deal, but it is the best OS build by MS until now.
This is completely unfounded. In fact, it is outright silly.
I would not wounder why...
What of becoming a parter from Novell?
I'd appreciate openSUSE growing into such a rule, the keyword being "growing".
exactly!
If Novell is for sale, can the community buy it?
The community just needs Some two, three million €. Stock ticker is NOVL.
Are you sure? This is much less than i thought...
What is it oS needs, besides the infrastructure and a lot of money?
Contributors.
Gerald
Than you must not kick them away.. ;-) -- Enjoy your time around, Oddball, aka M9. OS: Linux 2.6.27.19-3.2-default x86_64 Huidige gebruiker: oddball@AMD64x2-sfn1 Systeem: openSUSE 11.1 (x86_64) KDE: 4.2.1 (KDE 4.2.1) "release 103" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Am Dienstag, 8. Juni 2010, 15:52:22 schrieb Trifle Menot:
On Tue, 08 Jun 2010 08:41:18 -0500, "Bryen M. Yunashko"
<suserocks@bryen.com> wrote:
You say its time for openSUSE to not be a fetus and be born. I say its time for us to move into adolescence. We were already born a few years ago.
If Novell pulls the power plug, your project infrastructure immediately collapses. The "community" is not strong enough to step in and turn the power back on. As long as that's true, you're still a fetus.
To attract other corporate players, opensuse needs a life, independent from Novell.
It's not like openSUSE is the only community project heavyly dependent on a big sponsor... But whatever happens to Novell, the SUSE branch afaik is profitable and openSUSE certainly is part of that success, so it's highly unlikely that all sponsorship will be lost in a day like a pulled power plug. Karsten -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Tue, 8 Jun 2010, Trifle Menot wrote:
If Novell pulls the power plug, your project infrastructure immediately collapses. The "community" is not strong enough to step in and turn the power back on. As long as that's true, you're still a fetus.
Is this different for Fedora or Ubuntu? I am not saying this cannot or should not be changed, the question is, what is the priority (and who is going to bear the cost)? I am pretty Gerald -- Dr. Gerald Pfeifer gp@novell.com | SUSE Linux Products GmbH Director Product Management | HRB 16746 (AG Nuremberg) SUSE Linux Enterprise, openSUSE, Appliances | GF Markus Rex -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Wed, 9 Jun 2010, Gerald Pfeifer wrote:
I am pretty
...sure Novell won't be able to just take the investment we currently put into technical openSUSE infrastructure, convert it into currency, and transfer it to the donation. (Plus, taxes, markups and such, it likely would not even be sufficient, either.) Gerald -- Dr. Gerald Pfeifer gp@novell.com | SUSE Linux Products GmbH Director Product Management | HRB 16746 (AG Nuremberg) SUSE Linux Enterprise, openSUSE, Appliances | GF Markus Rex -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
El 08/06/10 08:32, Andreas Jaeger escribió:
* Own bugzilla: Does it make sense to have a separate bugzilla that we need to administrate as part of the project?
Maybe, however buzgilla is the epitome of old school bug tracking, please do not push this idea any further, bugzilla usability is horrendous, we need something like lunchpad or Jira, integrated with openfate, the buildservice etc..
- engineers will hate to have to look into another bugzilla.
Yes :)
So, Novell engineers will look first for enterprise bugs into the Novell ones and then later into the openSUSE one. Do we want that?
No way.
- How do we want to authenticate? Stay with ichain or go another route?
Well, several ways come to my mind, gmail, twitter, openID, facebook, aka. jump into the web 2.0 wagon. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Tirsdag den 8. juni 2010 14:21:05 skrev Trifle Menot:
I hear rumors Novell is for sale. Will opensuse get its own bugzilla independent from Novell? And what else needs to be done for opensuse to gain full independence?
I can no longer resist to share my 2 cents on some of the topics touched in this discussion. For me corporate backing is a motivator for contributing to openSUSE - and any significant corporate backing without giving away at least some control is unrealistic imho. It is true that there are some risks involved with investing your time and emotions in something that is fairly dependent on the whims of some corporate suits and market fluctuations, but there's also risks involved when contributing to a pure community based project like Debian - e.g. the release of all your hard work may be delayed for 6 months because of licence discussions. Of course it would be desirable to have some form of "guarantee" that openSUSE won't just go away. For Ubuntu this sense of security was achieved by Mark Shuttleworth putting 20 million USD in a foundation. Maybe it would be worth it for Novell to consider doing something similar when/if an openSUSE foundation is formed. There has been some mention of the other sponsors, but open-slx wasn't mentioned. Personally I find what open-slx are doing extremely interesting - since they are actually trying to monetize openSUSE. Something Novell never wanted to do, since Novell is greatly (and mistakenly so) underestimating the relevance of the consumer market. Open-slx have been hiring some people, and hopefully they'll be succesful and grow more influential - and hopefully other companies will copy this model and try to monetize openSUSE too. Regarding the MS deal. There can be no doubt that it was extremely damaging to openSUSE in terms of PR - and to some extent continues to be so even now, and probably will be for years to come. That is true regardless of whether the deal itself was "evil" or not - and is just something we have to live with. I'm not sure openSUSE being formally independent would stop Novell actions from affecting the way people perceive openSUSE. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Well said :-) 2010/6/9 Martin Schlander <martin.schlander@gmail.com>:
Tirsdag den 8. juni 2010 14:21:05 skrev Trifle Menot:
I hear rumors Novell is for sale. Will opensuse get its own bugzilla independent from Novell? And what else needs to be done for opensuse to gain full independence?
I can no longer resist to share my 2 cents on some of the topics touched in this discussion.
For me corporate backing is a motivator for contributing to openSUSE - and any significant corporate backing without giving away at least some control is unrealistic imho.
It is true that there are some risks involved with investing your time and emotions in something that is fairly dependent on the whims of some corporate suits and market fluctuations, but there's also risks involved when contributing to a pure community based project like Debian - e.g. the release of all your hard work may be delayed for 6 months because of licence discussions.
Of course it would be desirable to have some form of "guarantee" that openSUSE won't just go away. For Ubuntu this sense of security was achieved by Mark Shuttleworth putting 20 million USD in a foundation. Maybe it would be worth it for Novell to consider doing something similar when/if an openSUSE foundation is formed.
There has been some mention of the other sponsors, but open-slx wasn't mentioned. Personally I find what open-slx are doing extremely interesting - since they are actually trying to monetize openSUSE. Something Novell never wanted to do, since Novell is greatly (and mistakenly so) underestimating the relevance of the consumer market. Open-slx have been hiring some people, and hopefully they'll be succesful and grow more influential - and hopefully other companies will copy this model and try to monetize openSUSE too.
Regarding the MS deal. There can be no doubt that it was extremely damaging to openSUSE in terms of PR - and to some extent continues to be so even now, and probably will be for years to come. That is true regardless of whether the deal itself was "evil" or not - and is just something we have to live with. I'm not sure openSUSE being formally independent would stop Novell actions from affecting the way people perceive openSUSE. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
-- Alberto Passalacqua -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Wed, 9 Jun 2010 19:31:10 +0100 (BST), Gerald Pfeifer <gp@novell.com> wrote:
On Tue, 8 Jun 2010, Trifle Menot wrote:
If Novell pulls the power plug, your project infrastructure immediately collapses. The "community" is not strong enough to step in and turn the power back on. As long as that's true, you're still a fetus.
Is this different for Fedora or Ubuntu? I am not saying this cannot or should not be changed, the question is, what is the priority (and who is going to bear the cost)?
Depends on your point of view. Novell developers earning nice salaries are in a comfort zone where risk poses a threat to their paycheck. But outsiders with little or nothing to lose, may have different ideas about goals. You can't beat the market leader by working in a comfort zone. You must take bold risks to grow grassroots support of opensuse. You need a much larger population of opensuse users. And that won't happen until Novell devs shed their clique mentality and reach outside their comfort zone. On Wed, 9 Jun 2010 21:23:58 +0200, Martin Schlander <martin.schlander@gmail.com> wrote:
Tirsdag den 8. juni 2010 14:21:05 skrev Trifle Menot:
I hear rumors Novell is for sale. Will opensuse get its own bugzilla independent from Novell? And what else needs to be done for opensuse to gain full independence?
Of course it would be desirable to have some form of "guarantee" that openSUSE won't just go away. For Ubuntu this sense of security was achieved by Mark Shuttleworth putting 20 million USD in a foundation. Maybe it would be worth it for Novell to consider doing something similar when/if an openSUSE foundation is formed.
Yes but Mark doesn't need board approval, he has his own money to spend. It's different for a corporation, whose prime directive is profit. How can they justify it to shareholders?
There has been some mention of the other sponsors, but open-slx wasn't mentioned. Personally I find what open-slx are doing extremely interesting - since they are actually trying to monetize openSUSE. Something Novell never wanted to do, since Novell is greatly (and mistakenly so) underestimating the relevance of the consumer market. Open-slx have been hiring some people, and hopefully they'll be succesful and grow more influential - and hopefully other companies will copy this model and try to monetize openSUSE too.
Regarding the MS deal. There can be no doubt that it was extremely damaging to openSUSE in terms of PR - and to some extent continues to be so even now, and probably will be for years to come. That is true regardless of whether the deal itself was "evil" or not - and is just something we have to live with. I'm not sure openSUSE being formally independent would stop Novell actions from affecting the way people perceive openSUSE.
Novell gave opensuse a bad reputation. A new corporate name may help change market perceptions. It seems likely that will happen soon. -- Web mail, POP3, and SMTP http://www.beewyz.com/freeaccounts.php -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
El 09/06/10 16:11, Trifle Menot escribió:
Depends on your point of view. Novell developers earning nice salaries are in a comfort zone
LOL, change that from confort zone to the battlefield ;)
Yes but Mark doesn't need board approval, he has his own money to spend. It's different for a corporation, whose prime directive is profit. How can they justify it to shareholders?
Do you sincerely believe that Canonical does it to gain nothing ? a millonarie putting USD $20M to gain absolutely nothing ?
Novell gave opensuse a bad reputation.
No, the talibans of free software (no offense to Osama :D) are responsible of making such a big scandal about it. Nothing of their conspirancy theories resulted to be true. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Cristian Rodríguez wrote:
El 09/06/10 16:11, Trifle Menot escribió:
Depends on your point of view. Novell developers earning nice salaries are in a comfort zone
LOL, change that from confort zone to the battlefield ;)
Yes but Mark doesn't need board approval, he has his own money to spend. It's different for a corporation, whose prime directive is profit. How can they justify it to shareholders?
Do you sincerely believe that Canonical does it to gain nothing ? a millonarie putting USD $20M to gain absolutely nothing ?
Certainly. He also paid USD20million for a ride on the Soyuz - just for the experience. You have to inform yourself better. /Per Jessen, Zürich -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
2010/6/9 Per Jessen <per@computer.org>:
Do you sincerely believe that Canonical does it to gain nothing ? a millonarie putting USD $20M to gain absolutely nothing ?
Certainly. He also paid USD20million for a ride on the Soyuz - just for the experience. You have to inform yourself better.
Who should read more and be better informed is you, especially since you have been involved in this community for long time (at least I've seen your name around for a while). Mark of Canonical clearly said many times the goal of Ubuntu is being profitable, and about one year ago he fixed a two-year term for this. It is really not a secret. Best, A. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Alberto Passalacqua wrote:
2010/6/9 Per Jessen <per@computer.org>:
Do you sincerely believe that Canonical does it to gain nothing ? a millonarie putting USD $20M to gain absolutely nothing ?
Certainly. He also paid USD20million for a ride on the Soyuz - just for the experience. You have to inform yourself better.
Who should read more and be better informed is you,
Alberto, there is no need to be so condescending, it doesn't suit you. Besides, I was only quoting Cristian Rodríguez, maybe you missed that subtlety.
especially since you have been involved in this community for long time (at least I've seen your name around for a while).
Yep, I've been around for a while. /Per Jessen, Zürich -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
2010/6/9 Per Jessen <per@computer.org>:
Alberto Passalacqua wrote:
2010/6/9 Per Jessen <per@computer.org>:
Do you sincerely believe that Canonical does it to gain nothing ? a millonarie putting USD $20M to gain absolutely nothing ?
Certainly. He also paid USD20million for a ride on the Soyuz - just for the experience. You have to inform yourself better.
Who should read more and be better informed is you,
Alberto, there is no need to be so condescending, it doesn't suit you. Besides, I was only quoting Cristian Rodríguez, maybe you missed that subtlety.
Just reporting what Mark himself said about Canonical goals. It's out there in an interview he released some time ago. A. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Wed, 09 Jun 2010 16:22:35 -0400, Cristian Rodríguez <crrodriguez@opensuse.org> wrote:
El 09/06/10 16:11, Trifle Menot escribió:
Novell gave opensuse a bad reputation.
the talibans of free software (no offense to Osama :D) are responsible of making such a big scandal about it. Nothing of their conspirancy theories resulted to be true.
The Novell copyright battle against SCO has helped to improve public opinion of Novell. But that may become moot when the business changes hands, especially if the new owner drops the Novell name. I would. It will be interesting to see who bids the highest to get Novell and their copyrights. -- Web mail, POP3, and SMTP http://www.beewyz.com/freeaccounts.php -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
El 09/06/10 16:41, Trifle Menot escribió:
It will be interesting to see who bids the highest to get Novell and their copyrights.
what has "Novell Copyrights" (?) to do with openSUSE in your opinion ? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Wed, 09 Jun 2010 16:53:27 -0400, Cristian Rodríguez <crrodriguez@opensuse.org> wrote:
El 09/06/10 16:41, Trifle Menot escribió:
It will be interesting to see who bids the highest to get Novell and their copyrights.
what has "Novell Copyrights" (?) to do with openSUSE in your opinion ?
Legally, very little. But the public does not understand that. The battle for public opinion and market share involves myth, rumor, and propaganda. -- Web mail, POP3, and SMTP http://www.beewyz.com/freeaccounts.php -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Trifle Menot schreef:
On Wed, 09 Jun 2010 16:53:27 -0400, Cristian Rodríguez <crrodriguez@opensuse.org> wrote:
El 09/06/10 16:41, Trifle Menot escribió:
It will be interesting to see who bids the highest to get Novell and their copyrights.
what has "Novell Copyrights" (?) to do with openSUSE in your opinion ?
Legally, very little. But the public does not understand that. The battle for public opinion and market share involves myth, rumor, and propaganda.
helas correct... -- Enjoy your time around, Oddball, aka M9. OS: Linux 2.6.27.19-3.2-default x86_64 Huidige gebruiker: oddball@AMD64x2-sfn1 Systeem: openSUSE 11.1 (x86_64) KDE: 4.2.1 (KDE 4.2.1) "release 103" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Cristian Rodríguez schreef:
El 09/06/10 16:11, Trifle Menot escribió:
Depends on your point of view. Novell developers earning nice salaries are in a comfort zone
LOL, change that from confort zone to the battlefield ;)
lol.
Yes but Mark doesn't need board approval, he has his own money to spend. It's different for a corporation, whose prime directive is profit. How can they justify it to shareholders?
Do you sincerely believe that Canonical does it to gain nothing ? a millonarie putting USD $20M to gain absolutely nothing ?
eventualy, is the key word here..
Novell gave opensuse a bad reputation.
No, the talibans of free software (no offense to Osama :D) are responsible of making such a big scandal about it.
Nothing of their conspirancy theories resulted to be true.
If that was not the case, the situation would not be as it is now, correct. The hatred against M$ must have been bigger than assumed at the time.. But to turn all people that went away towards oS again is another point... -- Enjoy your time around, Oddball, aka M9. OS: Linux 2.6.27.19-3.2-default x86_64 Huidige gebruiker: oddball@AMD64x2-sfn1 Systeem: openSUSE 11.1 (x86_64) KDE: 4.2.1 (KDE 4.2.1) "release 103" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Le 10/06/2010 09:27, Oddball a écrit :
But to turn all people that went away towards oS again is another point...
who knows howmany?? and do we want us again? jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://www.facebook.com/pages/I-support-the-Linux-Documentation-Project/3720... http://www.facebook.com/pages/The-fan-page-of-Claire-Dodin/106485119372062?v... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
jdd schreef:
Le 10/06/2010 09:27, Oddball a écrit :
But to turn all people that went away towards oS again is another point...
who knows howmany?? and do we want us again?
jdd
I don't know the guy/gal that knows how many exactly, but ubuntu sure took profit of it.. Personaly i think oS was, and can be the best distro on the market.. Personaly i think, i would want everybody back, and more, no, all of them, that have still not tasted oS... ;-) I was able to take a closer look at 11.3M7 on eeepc901 with 64GBSSD, and was amazed by the boot speed! If kernell can handle all X out here, oS realy makes a difference. -- Enjoy your time around, Oddball, aka M9. OS: Linux 2.6.27.19-3.2-default x86_64 Huidige gebruiker: oddball@AMD64x2-sfn1 Systeem: openSUSE 11.1 (x86_64) KDE: 4.2.1 (KDE 4.2.1) "release 103" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
2010/6/9 Trifle Menot <triflemenot@beewyz.com>:
You can't beat the market leader by working in a comfort zone. You must take bold risks to grow grassroots support of opensuse. You need a much larger population of opensuse users. And that won't happen until Novell devs shed their clique mentality and reach outside their comfort zone.
That's in part true that you have to go out of the comfort zone, but I don't see how this is related to developers being well paid. Being well paid to do something you like seems to me the perfect deal, and I really prefer to see well paid developers, than developers that have to deal with economic difficulties and be split between open source contributions and their work. Novell allowed SUSE developers to do this, with some compromise of course, but that's clearly something acceptable in the big picture. Remember one thing that you are forgetting: openSUSE would not exist without Novell. It is Novell that opened the project, and made all what we are talking about possible.
Yes but Mark doesn't need board approval, he has his own money to spend. It's different for a corporation, whose prime directive is profit. How can they justify it to shareholders?
Mark wants profit too. He says that clearly. He just invested waiting to have a return, and he also fixed a date for that.
Novell gave opensuse a bad reputation. A new corporate name may help change market perceptions. It seems likely that will happen soon.
Clearly we have different point of views. I think Novell made openSUSE possible, more open and accessible. Look at the facts for one minute instead than to the politics. Novell opened the whole SUSE, made YaST open source (it wasn't in SuSE), they offered the openSUSE buildservice to the community, opening it to all major distributions. They support, sometime alone, many open projects, and openSUSE has one of the best KDE and GNOME implementations of the Linux arena. The bad reputation is not that bad. It is often due to what people reads on certain press, but when they know the community and try the distribution, they often change their mind, even in comparison to other more popular distributions (read ubuntu). I see that happen quite often. What would be useful, is to stop considering Novell as a problem, and start looking at it as an advantage, because that's what it is. They surely made a lot of mistakes, especially at the beginning, but they also fixed many of them during these years. If you look at openSUSE today, you see a well built distribution, with a good user experience, a good hardware support, a cool look, and a friendly approach to Linux. I'm not saying it's perfect, and there surely is a lot of work to do, but it depends more on us (community) than on Novell. To conclude, I think it is really unfair to look at Novell as a problem. There were communication problems at the beginning, there are different needs and perspectives, but it is clear things changed. Maybe the first required change in the community is to honestly acknowledge their merits, and then poke them when there is what we consider a problem. Best, A. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Wed, 9 Jun 2010 15:42:22 -0500, Alberto Passalacqua <albert.passalacqua@gmail.com> wrote:
2010/6/9 Trifle Menot <triflemenot@beewyz.com>:
You can't beat the market leader by working in a comfort zone. You must take bold risks to grow grassroots support of opensuse. You need a much larger population of opensuse users. And that won't happen until Novell devs shed their clique mentality and reach outside their comfort zone.
That's in part true that you have to go out of the comfort zone, but I don't see how this is related to developers being well paid. Being well paid to do something you like seems to me the perfect deal, and I really prefer to see well paid developers, than developers that have to deal with economic difficulties and be split between open source contributions and their work. Novell allowed SUSE developers to do this, with some compromise of course, but that's clearly something acceptable in the big picture. Remember one thing that you are forgetting: openSUSE would not exist without Novell. It is Novell that opened the project, and made all what we are talking about possible.
Yes but Mark doesn't need board approval, he has his own money to spend. It's different for a corporation, whose prime directive is profit. How can they justify it to shareholders?
Mark wants profit too. He says that clearly. He just invested waiting to have a return, and he also fixed a date for that.
Novell gave opensuse a bad reputation. A new corporate name may help change market perceptions. It seems likely that will happen soon.
Clearly we have different point of views. I think Novell made openSUSE possible, more open and accessible. Look at the facts for one minute instead than to the politics. Novell opened the whole SUSE, made YaST open source (it wasn't in SuSE), they offered the openSUSE buildservice to the community, opening it to all major distributions. They support, sometime alone, many open projects, and openSUSE has one of the best KDE and GNOME implementations of the Linux arena.
The bad reputation is not that bad. It is often due to what people reads on certain press, but when they know the community and try the distribution, they often change their mind, even in comparison to other more popular distributions (read ubuntu). I see that happen quite often.
What would be useful, is to stop considering Novell as a problem, and start looking at it as an advantage, because that's what it is. They surely made a lot of mistakes, especially at the beginning, but they also fixed many of them during these years. If you look at openSUSE today, you see a well built distribution, with a good user experience, a good hardware support, a cool look, and a friendly approach to Linux. I'm not saying it's perfect, and there surely is a lot of work to do, but it depends more on us (community) than on Novell.
To conclude, I think it is really unfair to look at Novell as a problem. There were communication problems at the beginning, there are different needs and perspectives, but it is clear things changed. Maybe the first required change in the community is to honestly acknowledge their merits, and then poke them when there is what we consider a problem.
I don't look at Novell as a problem. I think you are mistaking my arguments for an attack. I want Novell (and its successor) to grow and thrive. I want devs to earn nice salaries, so they can support their families while doing work they enjoy. But the reality is, if you're not growing, you're dying. You must take risks to compete with market leaders. If you don't, you will fall so far behind in terms of market share, that you can never catch up. And that will mean the eventual death of opensuse. Fully separating the opensuse infrastructure from the main sponsor is a risk. But I think it's the best way to attract new opensuse users and grow grassroots support of opensuse. If it works, the corporate sponsor will reap the rewards of improved public opinion and increasing market share. I think you must do it or die trying; if you don't try, you will surely die. -- Web mail, POP3, and SMTP http://www.beewyz.com/freeaccounts.php -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Wednesday June 9 2010 22:56:55 Trifle Menot wrote:
On Wed, 9 Jun 2010 15:42:22 -0500, Alberto Passalacqua
<albert.passalacqua@gmail.com> wrote:
2010/6/9 Trifle Menot <triflemenot@beewyz.com>:
You can't beat the market leader by working in a comfort zone. You must take bold risks to grow grassroots support of opensuse. You need a much larger population of opensuse users. And that won't happen until Novell devs shed their clique mentality and reach outside their comfort zone.
That's in part true that you have to go out of the comfort zone, but I don't see how this is related to developers being well paid. Being well paid to do something you like seems to me the perfect deal, and I really prefer to see well paid developers, than developers that have to deal with economic difficulties and be split between open source contributions and their work. Novell allowed SUSE developers to do this, with some compromise of course, but that's clearly something acceptable in the big picture. Remember one thing that you are forgetting: openSUSE would not exist without Novell. It is Novell that opened the project, and made all what we are talking about possible.
Yes but Mark doesn't need board approval, he has his own money to spend. It's different for a corporation, whose prime directive is profit. How can they justify it to shareholders?
Mark wants profit too. He says that clearly. He just invested waiting to have a return, and he also fixed a date for that.
Novell gave opensuse a bad reputation. A new corporate name may help change market perceptions. It seems likely that will happen soon.
Clearly we have different point of views. I think Novell made openSUSE possible, more open and accessible. Look at the facts for one minute instead than to the politics. Novell opened the whole SUSE, made YaST open source (it wasn't in SuSE), they offered the openSUSE buildservice to the community, opening it to all major distributions. They support, sometime alone, many open projects, and openSUSE has one of the best KDE and GNOME implementations of the Linux arena.
The bad reputation is not that bad. It is often due to what people reads on certain press, but when they know the community and try the distribution, they often change their mind, even in comparison to other more popular distributions (read ubuntu). I see that happen quite often.
What would be useful, is to stop considering Novell as a problem, and start looking at it as an advantage, because that's what it is. They surely made a lot of mistakes, especially at the beginning, but they also fixed many of them during these years. If you look at openSUSE today, you see a well built distribution, with a good user experience, a good hardware support, a cool look, and a friendly approach to Linux. I'm not saying it's perfect, and there surely is a lot of work to do, but it depends more on us (community) than on Novell.
To conclude, I think it is really unfair to look at Novell as a problem. There were communication problems at the beginning, there are different needs and perspectives, but it is clear things changed. Maybe the first required change in the community is to honestly acknowledge their merits, and then poke them when there is what we consider a problem.
I don't look at Novell as a problem. I think you are mistaking my arguments for an attack. I want Novell (and its successor) to grow and thrive. I want devs to earn nice salaries, so they can support their families while doing work they enjoy.
With all due respect but: 1. You said you wont contribute in any way as long as openSUSE "depends" on Novell in any way. 2. You are arguing over and over that the patent deal between Novell and "M$" drives others aways. So I guess it is fair to say that you see Novell as a problem.
But the reality is, if you're not growing, you're dying. You must take risks to compete with market leaders. If you don't, you will fall so far behind in terms of market share, that you can never catch up. And that will mean the eventual death of opensuse.
Well, how do you define "market leader"? In an enterprise field clearly Red Hat and Novell _are_ the "market leaders". And until someone found out how to earn money with linux on the desktop it simply doesn't matter what is the most "popular" distro for people who will never pay a single cent for it.
Fully separating the opensuse infrastructure from the main sponsor is a risk. But I think it's the best way to attract new opensuse users and grow grassroots support of opensuse. If it works, the corporate sponsor will reap the rewards of improved public opinion and increasing market share.
Before you raise claims like that please answer some questions: 1. Who will pay the core devs working on it since the current "community" isn't able to do so? 2. Who will pay for the basic infrastructure like OBS (since that will be the most costly) so development can go on as it does currently?
I think you must do it or die trying; if you don't try, you will surely die.
Well, while the number of people assigned to work merely on openSUSE might be ridiculously small compared to the whole number of employees (11 if I'm not mistaken) openSUSE still profits from the others working on SLE (which certainly are quite some more). Point being, me personally, I contribute to it because I consider it the best KDE distro available and it - now - gives me the tools to contribute by 1. Trolling IRC a bit. 2. Packaging stuff I find missing and updating others I find outdated (yes, I love OBS) 3. Testing it since that will be what I have to use. Also I honestly don't see a reason why other corporations should be driven away from contributing by said "M$" Novell deal. IOW your whole rant against "get independent of Novell" is as ridiculous as if you would visit the Fedora mailing list and tell them to get independent of Red Hat. It is just a community distro that is the base for a corporate one. You have all the possibilities to enhance it or change its direction _if_ you contribute and have valid arguments but some silly rant while refusing to do anything "cause it is reigned by some evil overlord" is simply ridiculous. Point being, until 1. You can come up with some reasonable idea how to pay core devs to work on it. 2. You tell us how to pay for the necessary infrastructure (e.g OBS). 3. _You_ start contributing instead of telling others what they should do. 4. You enlighten us how the relationship between Fedora and RHEL is different to openSUSE and SLE. 5. You provide some _proof_ of someone that got driven away by that "M$" deal - and no, some random joe sitting in his cellar doesn't count but we are talking about "corporate" sponsors who would be willing to invest more than just some 3-5 digits sum. So, either surprise me or please simply cut it since that thread has run its course quite some time ago. For sure you had valid arguments about the independence of Novell in case they were sold but that ongoing rant about some evil "M$" plots leads nowhere - or at least makes you look like something you prolly wont want. regards, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Thu, 10 Jun 2010 01:47:04 +0200, Stephan Kleine <bitdealer@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wednesday June 9 2010 22:56:55 Trifle Menot wrote:
I don't look at Novell as a problem. I think you are mistaking my arguments for an attack. I want Novell (and its successor) to grow and thrive. I want devs to earn nice salaries, so they can support their families while doing work they enjoy.
With all due respect but: 1. You said you wont contribute in any way as long as openSUSE "depends" on Novell in any way.
No, I said I want to see independent opensuse project infrastructure, like bugzilla. I don't care that paid Novell devs can influence the project with their opinions and work. I want Novell to show good faith by separating the project infrastructure. I think that's an important step.
2. You are arguing over and over that the patent deal between Novell and "M$" drives others aways.
That's not my focus. You're twisting my words.
So I guess it is fair to say that you see Novell as a problem.
No, but some people here are too sensitive, and take offense at the least thing.
But the reality is, if you're not growing, you're dying. You must take risks to compete with market leaders. If you don't, you will fall so far behind in terms of market share, that you can never catch up. And that will mean the eventual death of opensuse.
Well, how do you define "market leader"? In an enterprise field clearly Red Hat and Novell _are_ the "market leaders".
Ubuntu and Red Hat look like leaders to me.
Fully separating the opensuse infrastructure from the main sponsor is a risk. But I think it's the best way to attract new opensuse users and grow grassroots support of opensuse. If it works, the corporate sponsor will reap the rewards of improved public opinion and increasing market share.
Before you raise claims like that please answer some questions:
1. Who will pay the core devs working on it since the current "community" isn't able to do so?
Novell, or its buyer.
2. Who will pay for the basic infrastructure like OBS (since that will be the most costly) so development can go on as it does currently?
Novell, or its buyer. You are jumping to wrong conclusions about my intent.
Well, while the number of people assigned to work merely on openSUSE might be ridiculously small compared to the whole number of employees (11 if I'm not mistaken) openSUSE still profits from the others working on SLE (which certainly are quite some more).
Point being, me personally, I contribute to it because I consider it the best KDE distro available and it - now - gives me the tools to contribute by
1. Trolling IRC a bit. 2. Packaging stuff I find missing and updating others I find outdated (yes, I love OBS) 3. Testing it since that will be what I have to use.
Also I honestly don't see a reason why other corporations should be driven away from contributing by said "M$" Novell deal. IOW your whole rant against "get independent of Novell" is as ridiculous as if you would visit the Fedora
Again, you are jumping to wrong conclusions. I'm talking about opensuse project infrastructure. I'm not asking Novell people to go away.
mailing list and tell them to get independent of Red Hat. It is just a community distro that is the base for a corporate one. You have all the possibilities to enhance it or change its direction _if_ you contribute and have valid arguments but some silly rant while refusing to do anything "cause it is reigned by some evil overlord" is simply ridiculous.
Point being, until 1. You can come up with some reasonable idea how to pay core devs to work on it. 2. You tell us how to pay for the necessary infrastructure (e.g OBS). 3. _You_ start contributing instead of telling others what they should do. 4. You enlighten us how the relationship between Fedora and RHEL is different to openSUSE and SLE. 5. You provide some _proof_ of someone that got driven away by that "M$" deal - and no, some random joe sitting in his cellar doesn't count but we are talking about "corporate" sponsors who would be willing to invest more than just some 3-5 digits sum.
So, either surprise me or please simply cut it since that thread has run its course quite some time ago.
For sure you had valid arguments about the independence of Novell in case they were sold but that ongoing rant about some evil "M$" plots leads nowhere - or at least makes you look like something you prolly wont want.
I am not ranting about MS/Novell. Again you are twisting my words. You're not paying attention to what I say, you're listening to your own imagination. -- Web mail, POP3, and SMTP http://www.beewyz.com/freeaccounts.php -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Thursday 10 June 2010 02:44:14 Trifle Menot wrote:
Ubuntu and Red Hat look like leaders to me.
What follows is my personal opinion. Ubuntu have quite a major sway on the newbie linux desktop market. Ubuntu on the server is not really a serious proposition for enterprise computing; for the same reason that Debian is not a serious proposition for enterprise computing. This won't change soon because debian devs need to show enterprise customers that they suddenly appropriated the skills that would prevent them fucking up SSH so badly as they did before and left all their users, customers and clients utterly fucked. I make no apologies for the use of my language, this was a cluster-fuck in no uncertain terms. I will try to never use debian based code for this single reason. Red Hat guys are cool but SuSE always had the better engineers, use openSUSE, SLES, fedora, RHEL or CentOS. Use Ubuntu if you want to use code from hobbyists. Cheers the noo, Graham -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Torsdag den 10. juni 2010 03:23:35 skrev Graham Anderson:
Ubuntu have quite a major sway on the newbie linux desktop market. Ubuntu on the server is not really a serious proposition for enterprise computing; for the same reason that Debian is not a serious proposition for enterprise computing.
I think Novell "strategists" feel the same way, but I believe it's a mistake. The enormous mindshare and hype that Ubuntu is getting in the home user market (virtually unopposed), will let them grow and over time gain larger inroads in the more profitable enterprise market too, and become a real competitor for Novell - despite having an inferior product. And while this is happening Novell are obsessing about Red Hat and resting on their laurels. Instead of managing openSUSE like a real product, they're treating it like a Fedora. The idea seems to be that techies, sysadmins and enthusiasts don't really care about polish, ease of use and stability. But that's wrong. My take has always been that with 5% more end user friendlyness, openSUSE would be 100% more successful in the home user market - and this would have a very positive spill-over effect on SLE sales - because sysadmins and IT-buyers are consumers too when they go home. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Thu, Jun 10, 2010 at 10:39, Martin Schlander wrote:
My take has always been that with 5% more end user friendlyness, openSUSE would be 100% more successful in the home user market - and this would have a very positive spill-over effect on SLE sales - because sysadmins and IT-buyers are consumers too when they go home.
I agree 100%. All too often though people familiar with Linux and its inner workings fail to see that "just open a terminal and type (string of obscure text commands) to do X" is the wrong answer. I see this all the time on the various mailing lists. Heck, take a look at the documented "procedure" for making a bootable USB stick from the openSUSE DVD ISO, and compare it to the Ubuntu process (it's a menu entry choice). We constantly seem recoil from the user "friendlyness" in favor of "the way we've always done it". That said, there are parts about openSUSE that shine in terms of user friendlyness... YaST for example. It has its warts, but overall it's a great tool. C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
C schreef:
On Thu, Jun 10, 2010 at 10:39, Martin Schlander wrote:
My take has always been that with 5% more end user friendlyness, openSUSE would be 100% more successful in the home user market - and this would have a very positive spill-over effect on SLE sales - because sysadmins and IT-buyers are consumers too when they go home.
I agree 100%. All too often though people familiar with Linux and its inner workings fail to see that "just open a terminal and type (string of obscure text commands) to do X" is the wrong answer. I see this all the time on the various mailing lists. Heck, take a look at the documented "procedure" for making a bootable USB stick from the openSUSE DVD ISO, and compare it to the Ubuntu process (it's a menu entry choice). We constantly seem recoil from the user "friendlyness" in favor of "the way we've always done it".
That said, there are parts about openSUSE that shine in terms of user friendlyness... YaST for example. It has its warts, but overall it's a great tool.
C.
Both posts, points well seen.. -- Enjoy your time around, Oddball, aka M9. OS: Linux 2.6.27.19-3.2-default x86_64 Huidige gebruiker: oddball@AMD64x2-sfn1 Systeem: openSUSE 11.1 (x86_64) KDE: 4.2.1 (KDE 4.2.1) "release 103" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Thu, Jun 10, 2010 at 2:09 PM, Martin Schlander <martin.schlander@gmail.com> wrote:
Torsdag den 10. juni 2010 03:23:35 skrev Graham Anderson:
Ubuntu have quite a major sway on the newbie linux desktop market. Ubuntu on the server is not really a serious proposition for enterprise computing; for the same reason that Debian is not a serious proposition for enterprise computing.
I think Novell "strategists" feel the same way, but I believe it's a mistake.
The enormous mindshare and hype that Ubuntu is getting in the home user market (virtually unopposed), will let them grow and over time gain larger inroads in the more profitable enterprise market too, and become a real competitor for Novell - despite having an inferior product.
And while this is happening Novell are obsessing about Red Hat and resting on their laurels. Instead of managing openSUSE like a real product, they're treating it like a Fedora.
The idea seems to be that techies, sysadmins and enthusiasts don't really care about polish, ease of use and stability. But that's wrong.
My take has always been that with 5% more end user friendlyness, openSUSE would be 100% more successful in the home user market - and this would have a very positive spill-over effect on SLE sales - because sysadmins and IT-buyers are consumers too when they go home. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
My two cents...I'm a corporate user of Linux products (an exclusive non-syadmin user- I have a no-Windows policy in my group). I had standardized my test platforms for manufacturing long time ago on Mandriva 2008.1 and openSUSE 11.0/11.1. Now to my dismay, I find the futures of Mandriva and Novell murky and unclear at best. I've spent close to 3 years on standardizing my test platform on a Linux platform (which is extremely difficult in my field). I am being forced to reconsider my platforms and migrate them to core *stable* Linux companies like RH or Canonical. Novell's one such company- or thats what I had thought so. Now I am unsure of what openSUSE will become...or will it survive? I use Suse studio and the OBS heavily and am preparing for the eventuality that it may disappear. Now to comment on Martin's point on "The idea seems to be that techies, sysadmins and enthusiasts don't really care
about polish, ease of use and stability. But that's wrong."...he couldn't be any more right about my predicament. I'm a fairly advanced Linux user- but its not my core profession- far from it. I'd like to get my work done with minimal fuss and from my options between Ubuntu and Fedora...Ubuntu's the only one that provides me with a consistent platform (I can live with some instability) for me and my group. I will probably migrate over to Ubuntu over the next year or so, if the situation persists for long. Personally, its a very gut-wrenching thing to do, as I really really like openSUSE...
-Anshul -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Torsdag den 10. juni 2010 11:07:12 skrev Anshul Jain:
I had standardized my test platforms for manufacturing long time ago on Mandriva 2008.1 and openSUSE 11.0/11.1. Now to my dismay, I find the futures of Mandriva and Novell murky and unclear at best.
Well. Don't get too desperate because of some random rumours. It's still doubtful that anything will happen - and _if_ something does happen, it's most likely that Mandriva and openSUSE would continue more or less in their present forms, with more or less the same people - even if there were different owners. There have been rumours about RH takeovers before too. Maybe I should go plant some rumours about Hedgefunds wanting to buy Canonical - but I guess noone would believe it ;-) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Thu, 10 Jun 2010 11:29:55 +0200, Martin Schlander <martin.schlander@gmail.com> wrote:
Well. Don't get too desperate because of some random rumours. It's still doubtful that anything will happen
Novell is not getting enough traction against the competition, and management knows it. A new owner is needed to shake things up. I think that's more than a random rumor. -- Web mail, POP3, and SMTP http://www.beewyz.com/freeaccounts.php -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Thursday 10 June 2010 04:29:55 Martin Schlander wrote:
Maybe I should go plant some rumours about Hedgefunds wanting to buy Canonical - but I guess noone would believe it ;-)
Hedgefund idea is already used. Be original, like there are rumors that some big computer builder is considering to have own Linux :) -- Regards Rajko, -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
My take has always been that with 5% more end user friendlyness, openSUSE would be 100% more successful in the home user market - and this would have a very positive spill-over effect on SLE sales - because sysadmins and IT- buyers are consumers too when they go home.
+1 Usability, particularly support for / interfacing with other devices & OS's is of prime importance for most users. The minor compatibility issues ake little time to fix but cause major annoyance by being in-your-face all day while in use. David -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Thu, 10 Jun 2010 10:39:50 +0200, Martin Schlander <martin.schlander@gmail.com> wrote:
The enormous mindshare and hype that Ubuntu is getting in the home user market (virtually unopposed), will let them grow and over time gain larger inroads in the more profitable enterprise market too, and become a real competitor for Novell - despite having an inferior product.
Publicity. Exactly.
And while this is happening Novell are obsessing about Red Hat and resting on their laurels. Instead of managing openSUSE like a real product, they're treating it like a Fedora.
The idea seems to be that techies, sysadmins and enthusiasts don't really care about polish, ease of use and stability. But that's wrong.
My take has always been that with 5% more end user friendlyness, openSUSE would be 100% more successful in the home user market - and this would have a very positive spill-over effect on SLE sales - because sysadmins and IT-buyers are consumers too when they go home.
They also need more polish before release. They treat opensuse as a preview of SLE, and the users of opensuse as lab rats. That attitude produces sloppy releases with too many annoying bugs. -- Web mail, POP3, and SMTP http://www.beewyz.com/freeaccounts.php -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Trifle Menot schreef:
They also need more polish before release. They treat opensuse as a preview of SLE, and the users of opensuse as lab rats. That attitude produces sloppy releases with too many annoying bugs.
You mean the tight schedule every release is kept on? Only the most important bugs get squashed that way? So oS would never be able to earn a nickle herself? And would be dependable upon 'N' for all eternity? Just packed in nice words, so nobody notices? Keep the pressure on the kettle so nobody has time to complain? Pay the main programmers so they keep their mouth shut? oS under the evil spell of 'N'? Is it that obvious? Sure at least it is very stupid to 'handle' intelligent people that way..... Because that way you put the horse behind the wagon.... -- Enjoy your time around, Oddball, aka M9. OS: Linux 2.6.27.19-3.2-default x86_64 Huidige gebruiker: oddball@AMD64x2-sfn1 Systeem: openSUSE 11.1 (x86_64) KDE: 4.2.1 (KDE 4.2.1) "release 103" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Oddball schreef:
Trifle Menot schreef:
They also need more polish before release. They treat opensuse as a preview of SLE, and the users of opensuse as lab rats. That attitude produces sloppy releases with too many annoying bugs.
You mean the tight schedule every release is kept on? Only the most important bugs get squashed that way? So oS would never be able to earn a nickle herself? And would be dependable upon 'N' for all eternity? Just packed in nice words, so nobody notices? Keep the pressure on the kettle so nobody has time to complain? Pay the main programmers so they keep their mouth shut? oS under the evil spell of 'N'?
Is it that obvious? Sure at least it is very stupid to 'handle' intelligent people that way..... Because that way you put the horse behind the wagon....
Or you are hired by the competition?...lol. -- Enjoy your time around, Oddball, aka M9. OS: Linux 2.6.27.19-3.2-default x86_64 Huidige gebruiker: oddball@AMD64x2-sfn1 Systeem: openSUSE 11.1 (x86_64) KDE: 4.2.1 (KDE 4.2.1) "release 103" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Thu, 10 Jun 2010 13:58:00 +0200, Oddball <monkey9@iae.nl> wrote:
Trifle Menot schreef:
They also need more polish before release. They treat opensuse as a preview of SLE, and the users of opensuse as lab rats. That attitude produces sloppy releases with too many annoying bugs.
You mean the tight schedule every release is kept on?
A schedule does not guarantee a good release. They push it out the door on schedule, sloppy or not. They cram in so many changes between releases, they don't have enough time to sort things out. They need to rethink the process, and improve it. -- Web mail, POP3, and SMTP http://www.beewyz.com/freeaccounts.php -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Trifle Menot schreef:
On Thu, 10 Jun 2010 13:58:00 +0200, Oddball <monkey9@iae.nl> wrote:
Trifle Menot schreef:
They also need more polish before release. They treat opensuse as a preview of SLE, and the users of opensuse as lab rats. That attitude produces sloppy releases with too many annoying bugs.
You mean the tight schedule every release is kept on?
A schedule does not guarantee a good release. They push it out the door on schedule, sloppy or not.
They cram in so many changes between releases, they don't have enough time to sort things out. They need to rethink the process, and improve it.
Absolutely, many 'contributors' said the same, but until now it has lead only to a system without X, broken on all sides, instead of taken serious.. -- Enjoy your time around, Oddball, aka M9. OS: Linux 2.6.27.19-3.2-default x86_64 Huidige gebruiker: oddball@AMD64x2-sfn1 Systeem: openSUSE 11.1 (x86_64) KDE: 4.2.1 (KDE 4.2.1) "release 103" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Torsdag den 10. juni 2010 14:13:03 skrev Trifle Menot:
They cram in so many changes between releases, they don't have enough time to sort things out. They need to rethink the process, and improve it.
So you do want openSUSE to become Debian? ;-) Cuz Fedora and Ubuntu certainly are not reluctant to adopt new experimental technologies. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Martin Schlander schreef:
Torsdag den 10. juni 2010 14:13:03 skrev Trifle Menot:
They cram in so many changes between releases, they don't have enough time to sort things out. They need to rethink the process, and improve it.
So you do want openSUSE to become Debian? ;-)
Cuz Fedora and Ubuntu certainly are not reluctant to adopt new experimental technologies.
Well, there is something as 'overclocking', but this should be done best when stable... Too many major changes at once are very difficult to control. What causes what exactly? On the other hand, which goals are set: only test and try-out, or create a release that is usefull? -- Enjoy your time around, Oddball, aka M9. OS: Linux 2.6.27.19-3.2-default x86_64 Huidige gebruiker: oddball@AMD64x2-sfn1 Systeem: openSUSE 11.1 (x86_64) KDE: 4.2.1 (KDE 4.2.1) "release 103" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Thu, 10 Jun 2010 14:20:20 +0200, Martin Schlander <martin.schlander@gmail.com> wrote:
Torsdag den 10. juni 2010 14:13:03 skrev Trifle Menot:
They cram in so many changes between releases, they don't have enough time to sort things out. They need to rethink the process, and improve it.
So you do want openSUSE to become Debian? ;-)
Not exactly.
Cuz Fedora and Ubuntu certainly are not reluctant to adopt new experimental technologies.
Yes, it's a race against the competition, to meet the insatiable public desire for all things "new." But some of us, hoping to use opensuse on servers, are frustrated by too many bugs. -- Web mail, POP3, and SMTP http://www.beewyz.com/freeaccounts.php -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Thu, 10 Jun 2010 12:35:53 +0000, Trifle Menot <triflemenot@beewyz.com> wrote:
But some of us, hoping to use opensuse on servers, are frustrated by too many bugs.
And that reminds me of my original question about "novell" bugzilla. The OBS had the lofty, universal goal of building other distros besides opensuse. IOW, a build service for the "world." I admire big thinking, even if the goals are not fully met. So why not have a bug tracker for the world too. Then SLE can track their own bugs as a subproject within the independent, opensuse "world." Think big! -- Web mail, POP3, and SMTP http://www.beewyz.com/freeaccounts.php -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
El 10/06/10 08:48, Trifle Menot escribió:
So why not have a bug tracker for the world too. Then SLE can track their own bugs as a subproject within the independent, opensuse "world."
Problem is that bugs are shared between the two worlds, because *surprise* SLE is based in openSUSE. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Thu, 10 Jun 2010 10:15:55 -0400, Cristian Rodríguez <crrodriguez@opensuse.org> wrote:
El 10/06/10 08:48, Trifle Menot escribió:
So why not have a bug tracker for the world too. Then SLE can track their own bugs as a subproject within the independent, opensuse "world."
Problem is that bugs are shared between the two worlds, because *surprise* SLE is based in openSUSE.
Well then, I guess you need a better bug tracking system. One that share bugs between subprojects. -- Web mail, POP3, and SMTP http://www.beewyz.com/freeaccounts.php -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Cuz Fedora and Ubuntu certainly are not reluctant to adopt new experimental technologies.
Yes, it's a race against the competition, to meet the insatiable public desire for all things "new."
I've never been convinced by the argument that everyone wants the latest ... look how difficult a time MS has in persuading people to adopt a new version of Office / Windows / whatever ... David -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Thursday 10 June 2010 08:13:03 Trifle Menot wrote:
On Thu, 10 Jun 2010 13:58:00 +0200, Oddball <monkey9@iae.nl> wrote:
Trifle Menot schreef:
They also need more polish before release. They treat opensuse as a preview of SLE, and the users of opensuse as lab rats. That attitude produces sloppy releases with too many annoying bugs.
You mean the tight schedule every release is kept on?
A schedule does not guarantee a good release. They push it out the door on schedule, sloppy or not.
They cram in so many changes between releases, they don't have enough time to sort things out. They need to rethink the process, and improve it.
I have tried to refrain from joining this bru-ha-ha but this is the first thing I've really read from you that actually seems to belong in the discussion about PROJECTs and related to strategy that can be effected by the community. To wit: "They need to rethink the process and improve it." To some degree, you are correct in your observation that "They cram in so many changes between releases, they don't have enough time to sort things out." I'm not sure what the biggest problem is: Too many changes, or the bug handling procedures (Bugzilla, et al). I do think this is a valid area of discussion, albeit, not in *THIS* thread, but I do think it should be a PRIMARY point of discussion as strategy for the future is developed. Richard -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Thu, Jun 10, 2010 at 8:06 PM, Richard Creighton <ricreig@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thursday 10 June 2010 08:13:03 Trifle Menot wrote:
On Thu, 10 Jun 2010 13:58:00 +0200, Oddball <monkey9@iae.nl> wrote:
Trifle Menot schreef:
They also need more polish before release. They treat opensuse as a preview of SLE, and the users of opensuse as lab rats. That attitude produces sloppy releases with too many annoying bugs.
You mean the tight schedule every release is kept on?
A schedule does not guarantee a good release. They push it out the door on schedule, sloppy or not.
They cram in so many changes between releases, they don't have enough time to sort things out. They need to rethink the process, and improve it.
I have tried to refrain from joining this bru-ha-ha but this is the first thing I've really read from you that actually seems to belong in the discussion about PROJECTs and related to strategy that can be effected by the community.
To wit: "They need to rethink the process and improve it."
To some degree, you are correct in your observation that "They cram in so many changes between releases, they don't have enough time to sort things out."
I'm not sure what the biggest problem is: Too many changes, or the bug handling procedures (Bugzilla, et al). I do think this is a valid area of discussion, albeit, not in *THIS* thread, but I do think it should be a PRIMARY point of discussion as strategy for the future is developed.
Richard -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Couple of my observations on how we as a community can make openSUSE better:- (Disclaimer: This is for the normal user and not the expert) 1. Simplify zypper: The whole upgrading procedure where patches and packages are treated separately have to be streamlined. It is a tad confusing for the normal user. Mandriva provides a very elegant and neat way to upgrade the system through their mdkonline applet. Something we should look at as well 2. Package Management through YaST: The Qt version rocks, but the GNOME version simply is sucks. 3. Better bootsplash experience by using Plymouth 4. Simplify the repository structure. There are too many confusing ones, Factory, STABLE, UNSTABLE etc...the KDE guys are working on simplifying it...I guess. GNOME needs simplification. Many mistake Ubuntu to have the best user experience distro....but that tag actually belongs to Mandriva, which still has managed to keep itself alive (I don't know how longer though). Some of their tools are very good like msec (Mandriva Security), menu layout for GNOME and KDE which is unique and very consistent. We could take some cues from there and add the requisite polish on top of it. I'm sure some of these suggestions will be flamed...but I'd appreciate if this not be taken as criticism, but as suggestions to greater improve the distro that we all like. -Anshul -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Thu, 10 Jun 2010 20:18:42 +0530, Anshul Jain <anshulajain@gmail.com> wrote:
I'm sure some of these suggestions will be flamed...but I'd appreciate if this not be taken as criticism, but as suggestions to greater improve the distro that we all like.
Good suggestions. Some people hold back, for fear of being flamed, or worse, called a "troll." Mommy, he called me a TROLL! Heh. Let it rip. -- Web mail, POP3, and SMTP http://www.beewyz.com/freeaccounts.php -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Thu, Jun 10, 2010 at 16:48, Anshul Jain <anshulajain@gmail.com> wrote:
2. Package Management through YaST: The Qt version rocks, but the GNOME version simply is sucks.
The Gnome guys will say the exact opposite. They do not like the QT version, and think the Gnome one is considerably better. There is a Google group that is used as a discussion node for any improvements to the GTK YaST Package Management. See: http://groups.google.com/group/yast2-gtk
3. Better bootsplash experience by using Plymouth
See:https://features.opensuse.org/305493 It was rejected for 11.2.
4. Simplify the repository structure. There are too many confusing ones, Factory, STABLE, UNSTABLE etc...the KDE guys are working on simplifying it...I guess. GNOME needs simplification.
It is getting better. C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
I think your problems might drown in this thread, it's too unspecific and widespread, maybe think about adressing these seperatly, as most have been already discussed at one point or another I'll try to give an overview. Also please don't create general multiple issues threads, it's hard to track the different points, especially when it touches vastly different topics Am Donnerstag, 10. Juni 2010, 16:48:42 schrieb Anshul Jain:
Couple of my observations on how we as a community can make openSUSE better:- (Disclaimer: This is for the normal user and not the expert)
1. Simplify zypper: The whole upgrading procedure where patches and packages are treated separately have to be streamlined. It is a tad confusing for the normal user. Mandriva provides a very elegant and neat way to upgrade the system through their mdkonline applet. Something we should look at as well
I don't even know this patches system, but the zypper guys are very responsive, so please ping them on either factory or even better their lst
2. Package Management through YaST: The Qt version rocks, but the GNOME version simply is sucks.
Came up often, the gtk and qt guys have different ideas about a good interface, just judging one as bad and the other as good won't improve either, maybe suggest making it easy to choose (don't know if that's possible)
3. Better bootsplash experience by using Plymouth
Discussed and mainly discarded by coolo, we try booting as fast as possible, even if opensuse isn't really fast here, but work goes into that topic
4. Simplify the repository structure. There are too many confusing ones, Factory, STABLE, UNSTABLE etc...the KDE guys are working on simplifying it...I guess. GNOME needs simplification.
This is where opensuse lacks imho, mighty obs but the regular user keeps butchering his repo list, kde team often tried getting it right and it's the next round currently, if you want to start a general initiative feel free to do so, but you better be prepared ;-) btw, I am speaking out of a kde point of view, I'd be interested in this topic in general how the other teams are doing here that also track different releases concurrently
Many mistake Ubuntu to have the best user experience distro....but that tag actually belongs to Mandriva, which still has managed to keep itself alive (I don't know how longer though). Some of their tools are very good like msec (Mandriva Security), menu layout for GNOME and KDE which is unique and very consistent. We could take some cues from there and add the requisite polish on top of it.
I think oS has the best user experience ;-) But I have a lot of respect for the polish Mandriva puts in that and I think Mandriva and openSUSE are catering for the same user base here.
I'm sure some of these suggestions will be flamed...but I'd appreciate if this not be taken as criticism, but as suggestions to greater improve the distro that we all like.
Why should you, I dare to say even Trifle Menot didn't get flamed for his not very specific topics.
-Anshul
Cheers! Karsten -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Argh, noticed you started a seperate thread, which is good =) Please let that just die here. Karsten Am Donnerstag, 10. Juni 2010, 19:52:12 schrieb Karsten König:
I think your problems might drown in this thread, it's too unspecific and widespread, maybe think about adressing these seperatly, as most have been already discussed at one point or another I'll try to give an overview.
Also please don't create general multiple issues threads, it's hard to track the different points, especially when it touches vastly different topics
Am Donnerstag, 10. Juni 2010, 16:48:42 schrieb Anshul Jain:
Couple of my observations on how we as a community can make openSUSE better:- (Disclaimer: This is for the normal user and not the expert)
1. Simplify zypper: The whole upgrading procedure where patches and packages are treated separately have to be streamlined. It is a tad confusing for the normal user. Mandriva provides a very elegant and neat way to upgrade the system through their mdkonline applet. Something we should look at as well
I don't even know this patches system, but the zypper guys are very responsive, so please ping them on either factory or even better their lst
2. Package Management through YaST: The Qt version rocks, but the GNOME version simply is sucks.
Came up often, the gtk and qt guys have different ideas about a good interface, just judging one as bad and the other as good won't improve either, maybe suggest making it easy to choose (don't know if that's possible)
3. Better bootsplash experience by using Plymouth
Discussed and mainly discarded by coolo, we try booting as fast as possible, even if opensuse isn't really fast here, but work goes into that topic
4. Simplify the repository structure. There are too many confusing ones, Factory, STABLE, UNSTABLE etc...the KDE guys are working on simplifying it...I guess. GNOME needs simplification.
This is where opensuse lacks imho, mighty obs but the regular user keeps butchering his repo list, kde team often tried getting it right and it's the next round currently, if you want to start a general initiative feel free to do so, but you better be prepared ;-) btw, I am speaking out of a kde point of view, I'd be interested in this topic in general how the other teams are doing here that also track different releases concurrently
Many mistake Ubuntu to have the best user experience distro....but that tag actually belongs to Mandriva, which still has managed to keep itself alive (I don't know how longer though). Some of their tools are very good like msec (Mandriva Security), menu layout for GNOME and KDE which is unique and very consistent. We could take some cues from there and add the requisite polish on top of it.
I think oS has the best user experience ;-) But I have a lot of respect for the polish Mandriva puts in that and I think Mandriva and openSUSE are catering for the same user base here.
I'm sure some of these suggestions will be flamed...but I'd appreciate if this not be taken as criticism, but as suggestions to greater improve the distro that we all like.
Why should you, I dare to say even Trifle Menot didn't get flamed for his not very specific topics.
-Anshul
Cheers! Karsten
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Thu, Jun 10, 2010 at 10:48 AM, Anshul Jain <anshulajain@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, Jun 10, 2010 at 8:06 PM, Richard Creighton <ricreig@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thursday 10 June 2010 08:13:03 Trifle Menot wrote:
On Thu, 10 Jun 2010 13:58:00 +0200, Oddball <monkey9@iae.nl> wrote:
Trifle Menot schreef:
They also need more polish before release. They treat opensuse as a preview of SLE, and the users of opensuse as lab rats. That attitude produces sloppy releases with too many annoying bugs.
You mean the tight schedule every release is kept on?
A schedule does not guarantee a good release. They push it out the door on schedule, sloppy or not.
They cram in so many changes between releases, they don't have enough time to sort things out. They need to rethink the process, and improve it.
I have tried to refrain from joining this bru-ha-ha but this is the first thing I've really read from you that actually seems to belong in the discussion about PROJECTs and related to strategy that can be effected by the community.
To wit: "They need to rethink the process and improve it."
To some degree, you are correct in your observation that "They cram in so many changes between releases, they don't have enough time to sort things out."
I'm not sure what the biggest problem is: Too many changes, or the bug handling procedures (Bugzilla, et al). I do think this is a valid area of discussion, albeit, not in *THIS* thread, but I do think it should be a PRIMARY point of discussion as strategy for the future is developed.
Richard -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Couple of my observations on how we as a community can make openSUSE better:- (Disclaimer: This is for the normal user and not the expert)
1. Simplify zypper: The whole upgrading procedure where patches and packages are treated separately have to be streamlined. It is a tad confusing for the normal user. Mandriva provides a very elegant and neat way to upgrade the system through their mdkonline applet. Something we should look at as well
If you're only talking about distribution upgrade, have you looked at wagon? (The gui tool to do a "zypper dup".) http://en.opensuse.org/Wagon (I wrote most of that by that page, so extra detail / updates appreciated. I for one think there are still too many preliminary steps in those instructions before calling wagon, but as far as I know they are all still required. I would like to see a lot of the prelim steps sucked into Wagon and Wagon become the standard end-user distribution upgrade tool.) It was usable for 11.1 => 11.2 upgrades, but I haven't kept up with changes to it in the last year or so. I hate to say I haven't tried it for 11.2 => factory. Greg -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Thu, 10 Jun 2010 10:36:07 -0400, Richard Creighton <ricreig@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thursday 10 June 2010 08:13:03 Trifle Menot wrote:
They cram in so many changes between releases, they don't have enough time to sort things out. They need to rethink the process, and improve it.
To some degree, you are correct in your observation that "They cram in so many changes between releases, they don't have enough time to sort things out."
I'm not sure what the biggest problem is: Too many changes, or the bug handling procedures (Bugzilla, et al).
It's simple. Too much ambition, and too little manpower. They are biting off more than they can chew. They need more paid devs.
I do think this is a valid area of discussion, albeit, not in *THIS* thread, but I do think it should be a PRIMARY point of discussion as strategy for the future is developed.
Let me repeat that: they need more paid devs. Some people seem to misunderstand my intentions. I'm not advocating against Novell, or paid devs. The more the merrier. But Novell can't afford to hire them, unless they grow their market share. And that's where Novell is failing: market share. All my suggestions have one goal in mind: increased market share. It may not be obvious how an independent opensuse infrastructure will help with that. But I believe it will. -- Web mail, POP3, and SMTP http://www.beewyz.com/freeaccounts.php -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
2010/6/10 Trifle Menot <triflemenot@beewyz.com>:
Some people seem to misunderstand my intentions. I'm not advocating against Novell, or paid devs. The more the merrier. But Novell can't afford to hire them, unless they grow their market share. And that's where Novell is failing: market share.
Did you read the last financial reports of Novell regarding the growth of their Linux business? For the chronicles, in 2008 they had 29.8% (http://www.novell.com/company/blogs/cmo/?p=207) of market share (about half of RH). It's hard to say that with about 30% of the market share you are "failing" at it. Best, A. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Thu, 10 Jun 2010 13:00:13 -0500, Alberto Passalacqua <albert.passalacqua@gmail.com> wrote:
Did you read the last financial reports of Novell regarding the growth of their Linux business?
For the chronicles, in 2008 they had 29.8% (http://www.novell.com/company/blogs/cmo/?p=207) of market share (about half of RH). It's hard to say that with about 30% of the market share you are "failing" at it.
Enterprise market is one thing, total market is another. Without strong grassroots support, their enterprise market share will shrink. Why do you think they put Novell on the auction block? If executive management was optimistic about Novell's potential to gain significant market share, why would they do that? After Novell lost the networking market to Microsoft, the public viewed Novell as a "loser." And that reputation dogs them to this day. To the credit of executive management, they seem to understand that. The best thing they can do for their shareholders is sell out, and let a new name take over. -- Web mail, POP3, and SMTP http://www.beewyz.com/freeaccounts.php -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Hi, 2010/6/10 Trifle Menot <triflemenot@beewyz.com>:
Enterprise market is one thing, total market is another. Without strong grassroots support, their enterprise market share will shrink.
Linux has 1% of the marketshare on the desktop. It is not an interesting amount for a company honestly.
Why do you think they put Novell on the auction block? If executive management was optimistic about Novell's potential to gain significant market share, why would they do that?
Because they want more money. It has nothing to do with technology, software or plans. It's just business, and if they find the buyer who pays as much as they want, they'll sell. I would invite you in not reading too much in that: we simply do not have any element to judge at the moment. The rest is pure speculation, and it is not going to help in any way. A. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Thu, 10 Jun 2010 14:03:12 -0500, Alberto Passalacqua <albert.passalacqua@gmail.com> wrote:
Why do you think they put Novell on the auction block? If executive management was optimistic about Novell's potential to gain significant market share, why would they do that?
Because they want more money.
If money was the only concern, they would not actively solicit offers. They would carry on business as usual, and wait for more money to come along.
It has nothing to do with technology, software or plans.
As I said, I believe it does.
It's just business, and if they find the buyer who pays as much as they want, they'll sell. I would invite you in not reading too much in that: we simply do not have any element to judge at the moment. The rest is pure speculation
Any financial investment is speculation. "Speculators" get rich by making more good guesses than bad guesses. I can't see the future, but Novell finding a buyer and selling out looks like a good guess to me.
it is not going to help in any way.
Investors and speculators spend the whole day gathering information, often by talking. That's what they do. That's their job. -- Web mail, POP3, and SMTP http://www.beewyz.com/freeaccounts.php -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
2010/6/10 Trifle Menot <triflemenot@beewyz.com>:
Investors and speculators spend the whole day gathering information, often by talking. That's what they do. That's their job.
Yes, but they invest money. You just talk, you don't want to help, you are not an investor (or you didn't identify yourself as one). -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Thu, 10 Jun 2010 15:11:11 -0500, Alberto Passalacqua <albert.passalacqua@gmail.com> wrote:
You just talk, you don't want to help
You told me to work to "change the priorities." But I'm not a mechanic. I can't fix your oil leak. That's beyond my ability. You need professional help for that. Once you get that done, then I can help you fix the flat tire. That's something I can do. But if you insist on driving with an oil leak, helping fix your flat tire would be counterproductive, even dangerous to your vehicle. If you expect people to come in here and help, first you need to explain to them why their efforts will be a good investment of their time. Again: let's talk about priorities. Describe the priorities you would like to see. That type of high level discussion may attract some of the worker bees you are looking for. -- Web mail, POP3, and SMTP http://www.beewyz.com/freeaccounts.php -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Thursday June 10 2010 02:44:14 Trifle Menot wrote:
On Thu, 10 Jun 2010 01:47:04 +0200, Stephan Kleine <bitdealer@gmail.com>
wrote:
On Wednesday June 9 2010 22:56:55 Trifle Menot wrote:
I don't look at Novell as a problem. I think you are mistaking my arguments for an attack. I want Novell (and its successor) to grow and thrive. I want devs to earn nice salaries, so they can support their families while doing work they enjoy.
With all due respect but: 1. You said you wont contribute in any way as long as openSUSE "depends" on Novell in any way.
No, I said I want to see independent opensuse project infrastructure, like bugzilla. I don't care that paid Novell devs can influence the project with their opinions and work. I want Novell to show good faith by separating the project infrastructure. I think that's an important step.
Well, what would that be good for if we had an "independent" Bugzilla where it were exactly the same thing as it were now? I certainly wont start to argue with you about the goods and bads of bugzilla since those are well known. My point simply is that having an independent bug tracker totally doesn't matter since the core of the distro depends on OBS and you simply don't have the financial reserves to replace that. Surely you aren't the first to say that bugzilla sucks and it should be replaced with $superior_solution but all others like e.g. JIRA aren't that better either. So I somehow fail to see your point besides "we have to get an independent one" just for the sake of it (besides you prolly wont notice if bugs.opensuse.org leads to some Novell hosted site). So ....
2. You are arguing over and over that the patent deal between Novell and "M$" drives others aways.
That's not my focus. You're twisting my words.
So I guess it is fair to say that you see Novell as a problem.
No, but some people here are too sensitive, and take offense at the least thing.
Well, that is the impression you give here, not only to me.
But the reality is, if you're not growing, you're dying. You must take risks to compete with market leaders. If you don't, you will fall so far behind in terms of market share, that you can never catch up. And that will mean the eventual death of opensuse.
Well, how do you define "market leader"? In an enterprise field clearly Red Hat and Novell _are_ the "market leaders".
Ubuntu and Red Hat look like leaders to me.
Right, Ubuntu being a leader in the _enterprise_ market? Now you really have to be kidding .... Sorry, but that simply can't be taken seriously. (and before you got on some rant that Ubuntu has the biggest market share please note that I am talking about the _enterprise_ market and not about home users since no one figured out yet how to earn money from them.)
Fully separating the opensuse infrastructure from the main sponsor is a risk. But I think it's the best way to attract new opensuse users and grow grassroots support of opensuse. If it works, the corporate sponsor will reap the rewards of improved public opinion and increasing market share.
Before you raise claims like that please answer some questions:
1. Who will pay the core devs working on it since the current "community" isn't able to do so?
Novell, or its buyer.
So nothing changes?
2. Who will pay for the basic infrastructure like OBS (since that will be the most costly) so development can go on as it does currently?
Novell, or its buyer.
So nothing changes?
You are jumping to wrong conclusions about my intent.
I honestly doubt so albeight you make it pretty hard since you didn't answer any question asked.
Well, while the number of people assigned to work merely on openSUSE might be ridiculously small compared to the whole number of employees (11 if I'm not mistaken) openSUSE still profits from the others working on SLE (which certainly are quite some more).
Point being, me personally, I contribute to it because I consider it the best KDE distro available and it - now - gives me the tools to contribute by
1. Trolling IRC a bit. 2. Packaging stuff I find missing and updating others I find outdated (yes, I love OBS) 3. Testing it since that will be what I have to use.
Also I honestly don't see a reason why other corporations should be driven away from contributing by said "M$" Novell deal. IOW your whole rant against "get independent of Novell" is as ridiculous as if you would visit the Fedora
Again, you are jumping to wrong conclusions. I'm talking about opensuse project infrastructure. I'm not asking Novell people to go away.
Well, please provide me with one reason why $mighty_sponsor should sponsor this why said sponsor is unwilling to sponsor anything currently cause bad Novell has a deal with the devil aka "M$". IOW: why should they invest the money to create some independent infrastructure just to rebuild what we have now? To me this sounds like some waste of resources.
mailing list and tell them to get independent of Red Hat. It is just a community distro that is the base for a corporate one. You have all the possibilities to enhance it or change its direction _if_ you contribute and have valid arguments but some silly rant while refusing to do anything "cause it is reigned by some evil overlord" is simply ridiculous.
Point being, until 1. You can come up with some reasonable idea how to pay core devs to work on it. 2. You tell us how to pay for the necessary infrastructure (e.g OBS). 3. _You_ start contributing instead of telling others what they should do. 4. You enlighten us how the relationship between Fedora and RHEL is different to openSUSE and SLE. 5. You provide some _proof_ of someone that got driven away by that "M$" deal - and no, some random joe sitting in his cellar doesn't count but we are talking about "corporate" sponsors who would be willing to invest more than just some 3-5 digits sum.
So, either surprise me or please simply cut it since that thread has run its course quite some time ago.
For sure you had valid arguments about the independence of Novell in case they were sold but that ongoing rant about some evil "M$" plots leads nowhere - or at least makes you look like something you prolly wont want.
I am not ranting about MS/Novell. Again you are twisting my words. You're not paying attention to what I say, you're listening to your own imagination.
I'm not twisting anything but I'm seriously looking forward to get an answer to the question I asked you. So, since you apparently refuse to answer most of them lets just boil it down once more: How is openSUSE vs. SLE different to Fedora vs. RHEL? As in both are community distributions that are the base for respective corporate efforts. And I dare to say neither of them is able to survive without backing of their main sponsors (Novell or Red Hat). Did you already try to ask the Fedora folks on their mailing list to get rid of Red Hat? If so, please provide the URL of that thread so we can all have a laugh. Before you go on arguing please be so kind to answer the two questions stated in the last two paragraphs. Just so you don't miss them let me repeat it for you: 1. How is openSUSE vs. SLE different to Fedora vs. RHEL? 2. Did you already try to ask the Fedora folks to get rid of Red Hat? I'm looking forward to your answers. regards, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
2010/6/9 Stephan Kleine <bitdealer@gmail.com>:
Well, how do you define "market leader"? In an enterprise field clearly Red Hat and Novell _are_ the "market leaders".
Ubuntu and Red Hat look like leaders to me.
Right, Ubuntu being a leader in the _enterprise_ market? Now you really have to be kidding .... Sorry, but that simply can't be taken seriously. (and before you got on some rant that Ubuntu has the biggest market share please note that I am talking about the _enterprise_ market and not about home users since no one figured out yet how to earn money from them.)
According to independent market analysis that can be found in a single search with Google Red Hat is the first leading distribution in the enterprise market, immediately followed by Novell with SUSE, as second market leader. It is not really that hard to find this information, what is hard is understanding why who claims to know the solution to all the problems did not open a search engine and search for it, before writing. A. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Alberto Passalacqua schreef:
2010/6/9 Trifle Menot <triflemenot@beewyz.com>:
You can't beat the market leader by working in a comfort zone. You must take bold risks to grow grassroots support of opensuse. You need a much larger population of opensuse users. And that won't happen until Novell devs shed their clique mentality and reach outside their comfort zone.
That's in part true that you have to go out of the comfort zone, but I don't see how this is related to developers being well paid. Being well paid to do something you like seems to me the perfect deal, and I really prefer to see well paid developers, than developers that have to deal with economic difficulties and be split between open source contributions and their work. Novell allowed SUSE developers to do this, with some compromise of course, but that's clearly something acceptable in the big picture. Remember one thing that you are forgetting: openSUSE would not exist without Novell. It is Novell that opened the project, and made all what we are talking about possible.
Yes but Mark doesn't need board approval, he has his own money to spend. It's different for a corporation, whose prime directive is profit. How can they justify it to shareholders?
Mark wants profit too. He says that clearly. He just invested waiting to have a return, and he also fixed a date for that.
Novell gave opensuse a bad reputation. A new corporate name may help change market perceptions. It seems likely that will happen soon.
Clearly we have different point of views. I think Novell made openSUSE possible, more open and accessible. Look at the facts for one minute instead than to the politics. Novell opened the whole SUSE, made YaST open source (it wasn't in SuSE), they offered the openSUSE buildservice to the community, opening it to all major distributions. They support, sometime alone, many open projects, and openSUSE has one of the best KDE and GNOME implementations of the Linux arena.
The bad reputation is not that bad. It is often due to what people reads on certain press, but when they know the community and try the distribution, they often change their mind, even in comparison to other more popular distributions (read ubuntu). I see that happen quite often.
What would be useful, is to stop considering Novell as a problem, and start looking at it as an advantage, because that's what it is. They surely made a lot of mistakes, especially at the beginning, but they also fixed many of them during these years. If you look at openSUSE today, you see a well built distribution, with a good user experience, a good hardware support, a cool look, and a friendly approach to Linux. I'm not saying it's perfect, and there surely is a lot of work to do, but it depends more on us (community) than on Novell.
To conclude, I think it is really unfair to look at Novell as a problem. There were communication problems at the beginning, there are different needs and perspectives, but it is clear things changed. Maybe the first required change in the community is to honestly acknowledge their merits, and then poke them when there is what we consider a problem.
Best, A.
I think this point of vieuw is correct. The deal brought money, and the vision that SUSE is realy something that matters... It is easier to invest when there is money to do that... Somtimes things that look for the worst, are for the best. -- Enjoy your time around, Oddball, aka M9. OS: Linux 2.6.27.19-3.2-default x86_64 Huidige gebruiker: oddball@AMD64x2-sfn1 Systeem: openSUSE 11.1 (x86_64) KDE: 4.2.1 (KDE 4.2.1) "release 103" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 [Sent later] On 2010-06-09 22:42, Alberto Passalacqua wrote:
2010/6/9 Trifle Menot <>:
Novell gave opensuse a bad reputation. A new corporate name may help change market perceptions. It seems likely that will happen soon.
Clearly we have different point of views. I think Novell made openSUSE possible, more open and accessible. Look at the facts for one minute instead than to the politics. Novell opened the whole SUSE, made YaST open source (it wasn't in SuSE), they offered the openSUSE buildservice to the community, opening it to all major distributions. They support, sometime alone, many open projects, and openSUSE has one of the best KDE and GNOME implementations of the Linux arena.
That's true.
The bad reputation is not that bad. It is often due to what people reads on certain press, but when they know the community and try the distribution, they often change their mind, even in comparison to other more popular distributions (read ubuntu). I see that happen quite often.
On the other hand, I have seen old time users, even contributors, go away to some other distro just because the support time went down from two years to 18 months. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" GM (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iF4EAREIAAYFAkwQsZMACgkQja8UbcUWM1z7QgD/VQoXDqMkk5TJnmOkMn8MkRBj +8bn+lqEtnvOpS/W5tAA/1XWe2CkwU9amy0+PbNEK4d6I1RzFVGYjKIEmGJizHm2 =A+Me -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
2010/6/10 Carlos E. R. <carlos.e.r@opensuse.org>:
On the other hand, I have seen old time users, even contributors, go away to some other distro just because the support time went down from two years to 18 months.
Yes, that was something that made some user upset. But 18 months is also the standard support time for many other distributions (I know there is Ubuntu LTS). Best, A. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 [Sent later] On 2010-06-09 21:23, Martin Schlander wrote:
There has been some mention of the other sponsors, but open-slx wasn't mentioned. Personally I find what open-slx are doing extremely interesting - since they are actually trying to monetize openSUSE. Something Novell never wanted to do, since Novell is greatly (and mistakenly so) underestimating the relevance of the consumer market. Open-slx have been hiring some people, and hopefully they'll be succesful and grow more influential - and hopefully other companies will copy this model and try to monetize openSUSE too.
I wasn't aware of this, so I googled a bit and found the site. Unfortunately, it is in German only, so I don't understand a word. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" GM (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iF4EAREIAAYFAkwQrw4ACgkQja8UbcUWM1xsmwD/U+khDdOOJlFCslntUKBVofRJ lqquNaxycpw0slPlxEEA/ibpuu2KRJXYtcBODddGLo+vk8J1PgUrvANL/ZHNBmF+ =dJIu -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Am Donnerstag, 10. Juni 2010, 11:23:26 schrieb Carlos E. R.:
[Sent later]
On 2010-06-09 21:23, Martin Schlander wrote:
There has been some mention of the other sponsors, but open-slx wasn't mentioned. Personally I find what open-slx are doing extremely interesting - since they are actually trying to monetize openSUSE. Something Novell never wanted to do, since Novell is greatly (and mistakenly so) underestimating the relevance of the consumer market. Open-slx have been hiring some people, and hopefully they'll be succesful and grow more influential - and hopefully other companies will copy this model and try to monetize openSUSE too.
I wasn't aware of this, so I googled a bit and found the site. Unfortunately, it is in German only, so I don't understand a word.
They took over the production, marketing and selling of the boxed edition and in return want to improve documentation and work on other parts of the distribution/upstream projects. For me this looks like a sound project, Novell itself isn't interested in doing the 90 day support etc for a project they don't expect a direct revenue stream from. And for us this means this goes to people we know that care directly about openSUSE, free from any Novell control. Karsten -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2010-06-10 21:17, Karsten König wrote:
Am Donnerstag, 10. Juni 2010, 11:23:26 schrieb Carlos E. R.:
[open-slx]
I wasn't aware of this, so I googled a bit and found the site. Unfortunately, it is in German only, so I don't understand a word.
They took over the production, marketing and selling of the boxed edition and in return want to improve documentation and work on other parts of the distribution/upstream projects. For me this looks like a sound project, Novell itself isn't interested in doing the 90 day support etc for a project they don't expect a direct revenue stream from. And for us this means this goes to people we know that care directly about openSUSE, free from any Novell control.
I understand that, but the web page should not be German language only. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" GM (Elessar)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkwRSJgACgkQU92UU+smfQXnxgCfVvMIncRlSC8Ko8eG8DP5QiyG QDwAoIAriG2nRvY/Jp2GS/rzIE/M4lz+ =nhft -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
2010/6/10 Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net>:
I understand that, but the web page should not be German language only.
Ask some of the translators to translate it. I'm sure they'll be happy to help :-) Best, A. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Thu, Jun 10, Alberto Passalacqua wrote:
2010/6/10 Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net>:
I understand that, but the web page should not be German language only.
Ask some of the translators to translate it. I'm sure they'll be happy to help :-)
Or open the .com URL instead of the .de one: http://www.open-slx.com/ Daniel -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Torsdag den 10. juni 2010 22:18:32 skrev Carlos E. R.:
On 2010-06-10 21:17, Karsten König wrote:
Am Donnerstag, 10. Juni 2010, 11:23:26 schrieb Carlos E. R.: [open-slx]
I wasn't aware of this, so I googled a bit and found the site. Unfortunately, it is in German only, so I don't understand a word.
They took over the production, marketing and selling of the boxed edition and in return want to improve documentation and work on other parts of the distribution/upstream projects. For me this looks like a sound project, Novell itself isn't interested in doing the 90 day support etc for a project they don't expect a direct revenue stream from. And for us this means this goes to people we know that care directly about openSUSE, free from any Novell control.
I understand that, but the web page should not be German language only.
This page is English for me: http://www.open-slx.com/ Also see: http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2010-04/msg00003.html and: http://vizzzion.org/blog/2010/05/new-challenges/ And previously it has been announced that open-slx sponsored work done on the wiki. So we should support open-slx. And maybe they deserve to be listed among the sponsors, to give them added visibility. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
participants (30)
-
Administrator -
Alberto Passalacqua -
Alexis "Agemen" -
Andreas Jaeger -
Anshul Jain -
Basil Chupin -
Bryen M. Yunashko -
C -
Carlos E. R. -
Carlos E. R. -
Carlos Ribeiro -
Cristian Rodríguez -
Daniel Rahn -
Dominique Leuenberger -
Gerald Pfeifer -
Graham Anderson -
Greg Freemyer -
jdd -
Karsten König -
Malcolm -
Marcus Meissner -
Marcus Moeller -
Martin Schlander -
Oddball -
Per Jessen -
Rajko M. -
Richard Creighton -
Stephan Kleine -
Trifle Menot -
Vincent Untz