Hello folks!
I work together with some older people (60-70 years of life) and try to teach them some computer knowledge. I also say often that it will be easier to use a Linux-distro like openSUSE. So I ask myself, how I can say these people that openSUSE is better (easier) for them then Windows. They use Windows 7 and sometimes their are some really big problems they can´t fix by themselves. So they ask me. I think that openSUSE is easier for them because you just need to update your packages and don´t download a new exe-file for keep your system up-to-date.
Maybe we can make something (e.g. videos or pdf-files/presentations) for that people that they may use openSUSE and better understand their computers
kind regards and a happy new year kdl
Tirsdag den 28. december 2010 13:19:32 skrev Kim Leyendecker:
I work together with some older people (60-70 years of life) and try to teach them some computer knowledge. I also say often that it will be easier to use a Linux-distro like openSUSE. So I ask myself, how I can say these people that openSUSE is better (easier) for them then Windows.
For the elderly I'd say the main selling points are:
* No viruses and spyware * Cheap/gratis * Doesn't require latest/greatest hardware * Everything you need out of the box (almost) * Single click (default in KDE at least, the elderly often struggle with doubleclicking)
They use Windows 7 and sometimes their are some really big problems they can´t fix by themselves. So they ask me. I think that openSUSE is easier for them because you just need to update your packages and don´t download a new exe-file for keep your system up-to-date.
Maybe we can make something (e.g. videos or pdf-files/presentations) for that people that they may use openSUSE and better understand their computers
I think that to use any desktop computer - regardless of your age or your operating system - you need either:
A) To have the skills, time and motivation to learn enough yourself, or; B) Someone relatively close to you who can help you out
And ~90-95% don't meet requirement A. Therefore I think the trick is to target the 5-10% who are helping out the rest (i.e. "the kid next door" is the gatekeeper to the computers of the elderly).
But of course I take any opportunity to advertise http://opensuse-guide.org/ which I think could be a reasonable fit also for elderly people who are genuinely interested in reading and learning, and it has a few embedded videos etc.
Am 28.12.2010 13:44, schrieb Martin Schlander:
Tirsdag den 28. december 2010 13:19:32 skrev Kim Leyendecker:
I work together with some older people (60-70 years of life) and try to teach them some computer knowledge. I also say often that it will be easier to use a Linux-distro like openSUSE. So I ask myself, how I can say these people that openSUSE is better (easier) for them then Windows.
For the elderly I'd say the main selling points are:
- No viruses and spyware
- Cheap/gratis
- Doesn't require latest/greatest hardware
- Everything you need out of the box (almost)
- Single click (default in KDE at least, the elderly often struggle with
doubleclicking)
They use Windows 7 and sometimes their are some really big problems they can´t fix by themselves. So they ask me. I think that openSUSE is easier for them because you just need to update your packages and don´t download a new exe-file for keep your system up-to-date.
Maybe we can make something (e.g. videos or pdf-files/presentations) for that people that they may use openSUSE and better understand their computers
I think that to use any desktop computer - regardless of your age or your operating system - you need either:
A) To have the skills, time and motivation to learn enough yourself, or; B) Someone relatively close to you who can help you out
And ~90-95% don't meet requirement A. Therefore I think the trick is to target the 5-10% who are helping out the rest (i.e. "the kid next door" is the gatekeeper to the computers of the elderly).
But of course I take any opportunity to advertise http://opensuse-guide.org/ which I think could be a reasonable fit also for elderly people who are genuinely interested in reading and learning, and it has a few embedded videos etc.
Yes, I agree. But for Windows they need an good antivirus. So I try to make openSUSE the first choice. (I not say that openSUSE is the best and they have to use it, or I don´t give support anymore, but I try to say what´s better than Windows.)
The most time they used Mozilla Firefox and OpenOffice.org because these two things were free and I´ve installed them because I know that they are good and maybe better than the commercial products.
So I ask why they don´t want to use a free OS when they already use a free browser and a free office-suite?
kdl
On Tuesday 28 December 2010 13:44:31 Martin Schlander wrote:
Tirsdag den 28. december 2010 13:19:32 skrev Kim Leyendecker:
I work together with some older people (60-70 years of life) and try to teach them some computer knowledge. I also say often that it will be easier to use a Linux-distro like openSUSE. So I ask myself, how I can say these people that openSUSE is better (easier) for them then Windows.
For the elderly I'd say the main selling points are:
- No viruses and spyware
- Cheap/gratis
- Doesn't require latest/greatest hardware
- Everything you need out of the box (almost)
- Single click (default in KDE at least, the elderly often struggle with
doubleclicking)
I consider these selling points for most casual users :-)
They use Windows 7 and sometimes their are some really big problems they can´t fix by themselves. So they ask me. I think that openSUSE is easier for them because you just need to update your packages and don´t download a new exe-file for keep your system up-to-date.
Maybe we can make something (e.g. videos or pdf-files/presentations) for that people that they may use openSUSE and better understand their computers
I think that to use any desktop computer - regardless of your age or your operating system - you need either:
A) To have the skills, time and motivation to learn enough yourself, or; B) Someone relatively close to you who can help you out
And ~90-95% don't meet requirement A. Therefore I think the trick is to target the 5-10% who are helping out the rest (i.e. "the kid next door" is the gatekeeper to the computers of the elderly).
But of course I take any opportunity to advertise http://opensuse-guide.org/ which I think could be a reasonable fit also for elderly people who are genuinely interested in reading and learning, and it has a few embedded videos etc.
+1 We set up our grandmas system with suse+kde right away, she still couldn't install the printer herself, but we did that for her in 5 minutes and now she obviously only needs to turn it on and send pages. We kept her interface consistent (yeah, that means icons on the desktop) and she knows where to find what and how to turn it of.
So now she does her mahjong games, kword, firefox, kmail, xbmc and skype with ease and doesn't want more. But my grandma ain't the type of person strolling through the local tech store looking for fun software like 'garden planer' or 'photo album creator'. This kind of person is my (non-related) grandpa, and even if that might work with wine that is just not the kind of stuff you can handle like you install some junk on windows.
So over all it comes down to what the people want to do, I think most are happy with a working browser, email and photo viewer
Regards, Karsten
Am 28.12.2010 16:45, schrieb Karsten König:
+1 We set up our grandmas system with suse+kde right away, she still couldn't install the printer herself, but we did that for her in 5 minutes and now she obviously only needs to turn it on and send pages. We kept her interface consistent (yeah, that means icons on the desktop) and she knows where to find what and how to turn it of.
So now she does her mahjong games, kword, firefox, kmail, xbmc and skype with ease and doesn't want more. But my grandma ain't the type of person strolling through the local tech store looking for fun software like 'garden planer' or 'photo album creator'. This kind of person is my (non-related) grandpa, and even if that might work with wine that is just not the kind of stuff you can handle like you install some junk on windows.
So over all it comes down to what the people want to do, I think most are happy with a working browser, email and photo viewer
+1 All what they need (in my eyes):
- Working Browser - Working Mail-client (I think Thunderbird is the best choice.) - Working Desktop Environment - Working Text processor - Working photo viewer - Maybe Skype or MSN/icq-compatible chatsoftware
Maybe we can create a live-distro via SUSE Studio that contains _this_ features and leave out the rest?
kdl
Le 28/12/2010 13:19, Kim Leyendecker a écrit :
Hello folks!
I work together with some older people (60-70 years of life) and try to teach them some computer knowledge. I also say often that it will be easier to use a Linux-distro like openSUSE. So I ask myself, how I can say these people that openSUSE is better (easier) for them then Windows. They use Windows 7 and sometimes their are some really big problems they can´t fix by themselves. So they ask me. I think that openSUSE is easier for them because you just need to update your packages and don´t download a new exe-file for keep your system up-to-date.
older people may have different needs than most of us...
my mother (now 90) started to use computer with windows 98 more than 10 years ago...
she used openSUSE for several years and liked it a lot, but I was obliged to keep her with Vista, I will say why.
The things she liked the most was the screen saver :-). Liked the most the various (random), ones.
The only thing that was difficult for her at the very beginning was to use the mouse. Clic, drag, drop, was very difficult. The ability of windows to move menus entry while dragging was extremely harmfull, because she always removed menu entrys by mistakes...
The main advantage of Linux is the complete remote access. I'm 150 miles away from her and could still manage the computer through the network.
I couldn't stay with openSUSE (and she regrets that), because one of the main use she have is to watch ppt and pps files send by his friends, and I never could make openoffice read them completely (with sound, flasheds, moves, etc).
I can still manage the computer through VNC, but it's pretty inconvenient. I also have to say Vista is the worst windows ever (never really used 7)
she uses mostely firefox and thunderbird
jdd
On Tue, Dec 28, 2010 at 8:05 AM, jdd jdd@dodin.org wrote: <snip>
The main advantage of Linux is the complete remote access. I'm 150 miles away from her and could still manage the computer through the network.
Windows has pretty good remote access too.
For XP/Vista/Win7, I don't know the details of setting it up / features, but I know some guys in our lab remote into the XP/Win 7 machines 10 ft away.
I use tsclient into a Windows 2008 server almost daily. (I do know how to set that up on Win 2008 - comes with 2 simultaneous users with the basic license - users can be admistrators).
It is more efficient than having to get out of our chairs.
The same can be done across the Internet.
Greg
Le 28/12/2010 15:10, Greg Freemyer a écrit :
On Tue, Dec 28, 2010 at 8:05 AM, jdd jdd@dodin.org wrote:
<snip> > > The main advantage of Linux is the complete remote access. I'm 150 > miles away from her and could still manage the computer through the > network.
Windows has pretty good remote access too.
client, but not all the version have server, and mine don't have. I can use VNC, but the lack of usable CLI is a real annoyance
anyway, in that respect, openSUSE is much better (I use it for my daughter) - as anybody could guess
jdd
On Tue, Dec 28, 2010 at 9:41 AM, jdd jdd@dodin.org wrote:
Le 28/12/2010 15:10, Greg Freemyer a écrit :
On Tue, Dec 28, 2010 at 8:05 AM, jdd jdd@dodin.org wrote:
<snip> > > The main advantage of Linux is the complete remote access. I'm 150 > miles away from her and could still manage the computer through the > network.
Windows has pretty good remote access too.
client, but not all the version have server, and mine don't have. I can use VNC, but the lack of usable CLI is a real annoyance
A little googling confirms XP Home does not have the server software. Stupid.
I didn't check Vista / Win7 home versions.
Greg
Hi,
I have the following list which shows up the major problems I've encountered with non-technical-savvy people (don't like the term elderly ;)):
- Support for today's "standard" office formats (OOXML _and_ DOC(x)/XLS(x), etc.) - However: Please don't start to blame OoO oder LibreOffice for some "stupid" things the traditional formats of MSOffice does. - Support for today's standard Multimedia/Entertainment formats: - Flash, (Silver/Moon)light, WMV, MP3 and more - OOTB sun-java working in browsers (lots of people use java-based portals for their financing, etc. Some crypto stuff is only available in non-oss sun-java - FTR: A simple "install multimedia extensions" icon or something like that - In-Place upgrades (zypper dup) should be integrated more nicely and without major knowledge/interaction within openSUSE. I really don't like Ubuntu, but they really do a great job regarding this part. - Better implementation of remote support (vino is ok, but VNC is a really bad idea over weak links) -> x2godesktopsharing would be an idea for this - Some form of better wine integration to enable windows-based apps that can run. Like something making an auto-lookup to winehq.com of how good an application is supported.
What do you think? Just some ideas I've been gathering over time...
- mike
Hello folks!
I work together with some older people (60-70 years of life) and try to teach them some computer knowledge. I also say often that it will be easier to use a Linux-distro like openSUSE. So I ask myself, how I can say these people that openSUSE is better (easier) for them then Windows. They use Windows 7 and sometimes their are some really big problems they can´t fix by themselves. So they ask me. I think that openSUSE is easier for them because you just need to update your packages and don´t download a new exe-file for keep your system up-to-date.
Maybe we can make something (e.g. videos or pdf-files/presentations) for that people that they may use openSUSE and better understand their computers
kind regards and a happy new year kdl
Le 28/12/2010 15:40, Michael Kromer a écrit :
- Support for today's "standard" office formats (OOXML _and_
DOC(x)/XLS(x), etc.)
the main problem is obscure Microsoft formats. For example, how is the sound included in ppt files (just an example, I don't need answer)?
Support for today's standard Multimedia/Entertainment formats: - Flash, (Silver/Moon)light, WMV, MP3 and more - OOTB sun-java working in browsers (lots of people use java-based portals for their financing, etc. Some crypto stuff is only available in non-oss sun-java
better support of html 5 :-). It's pretty rare that *important* web sites wont work on Firefox
- FTR: A simple "install
multimedia extensions" icon or something like that
If you have to help somebody, you should be aware of the traditional way to solve those problems. Do *not* expect anybody to be able to *install* openSUSE completely by itself. I refused to install XP on my mother's laptop. Who is able to install Windows with no recovery disk available?
Until we get an openSUSE certified (prepackaged) hardware, there is no solution
jdd
@jdd: sorry for dup
- Support for today's "standard" office formats (OOXML _and_
DOC(x)/XLS(x), etc.)
the main problem is obscure Microsoft formats. For example, how is the sound included in ppt files (just an example, I don't need answer)?
The list would (and will probably) never end... You won't make it to get 100% compatibility for billions of created files around the globe. No way, don't even think about it ;)
Support for today's standard Multimedia/Entertainment formats: - Flash, (Silver/Moon)light, WMV, MP3 and more - OOTB sun-java working in browsers (lots of people use java-based portals for their financing, etc. Some crypto stuff is only available in non-oss sun-java
better support of html 5 :-). It's pretty rare that *important* web sites wont work on Firefox
Well, I wasn't talking about Firefox as browser itself, but how do (non-technical) users think ...: The page opens up in Internet Explorer, why doesn't it do the job in <your-distro-here>? Doesn't work. period. I think a distribution should take care for this stuff. Just take an example: If you buy a new laptop by an OEM, what do you get: A naked Win<VERSION>-OS? no. You get it bulked with various applications which take down support calls as good as possible (to drill down the costs for service/support personnel). So Java, Flash and all that nifty stuff is there. Users don't really care about: "Well, its that way" - They just realize the difference, and of course they would like to get the working system back ASAP.
For example, I made it to get my wife using openSUSE. She will never ever start to do an upgrade herself, as she simply doesn't know yast/zypper/rpm. Why should she? I bet there are tons of Ubuntu users out there in the world never ever realized what DPKG is. I think this should be the target to go for.
- FTR: A simple "install
multimedia extensions" icon or something like that
If you have to help somebody, you should be aware of the traditional way to solve those problems. Do *not* expect anybody to be able to *install* openSUSE completely by itself. I refused to install XP on my mother's laptop. Who is able to install Windows with no recovery disk available?
I've been using S.u.S.E-based products since '96, so no problem with the "traditional method" ;). But: oh yes: I _do_ expect somebody to be able to install openSUSE himself, or lets say at LEAST to keep it uptodate himself. (Have you ever seen a SUSE-bundled OEM-System (Leave out SLED)?) If I would have to support all the people I've brought to openSUSE (only counting the real non-technical-guys), I probably would have zero time for my employer ;). But: For everyone I've shown SuSE it still takes a few weeks to get all questions out of the way. Most of the problems are in the list. For this reason I've built up my own "non-technical" kiwiconf, with all stuff shipped - after every 4 weeks after a new release I'm pretty much helping people to get the newest version.
Until we get an openSUSE certified (prepackaged) hardware, there is no solution
I NACK this one. openSUSE is IMHO one of the best compatible distros on the planet. The only guys which are lacking behind are the OEMS and Manufacturers to provide the newest hardware for their chips. We still have to fight the OEM-fight. Who said there is no monopol?
- mike
Am 28.12.2010 15:40, schrieb Michael Kromer:
I have the following list which shows up the major problems I've encountered with non-technical-savvy people (don't like the term elderly ;)):
But this is the point. I don´t wanna do it for people who are non-technical savvy. I want to do it for elderly. They maybe need a grand fontsize and need some bigger windows than I. Maybe they can´t see very well (Like me, when I´m not wearing my contact lenses or my glasses.) Yes, maybe they aren´t technical experts or advanced users, but I know also people who are very good in some technical things but they need special support because they cannot see everything with their eyes.
Remember, the people I mean have 60-70 years of life experience and want to learn the really difficult unit "computer".
So, you maybe are right in some things, but for me, the most important thing is that they can use the PC without any Restrictions due to her body.
Sorry, If I don´t say this in the first post :/
kind regards and an happy new year again kdl
Am 28.12.2010 15:40, schrieb Michael Kromer:
I have the following list which shows up the major problems I've encountered
with non-technical-savvy people (don't like the term elderly ;)):
But this is the point. I don´t wanna do it for people who are non-technical savvy. I want to do it for elderly. They maybe need a grand fontsize and need some bigger windows than I. Maybe they can´t see very well (Like me, when I´m not wearing my contact lenses or my glasses.) Yes, maybe they aren´t technical experts or advanced users, but I know also people who are very good in some technical things but they need special support because they cannot see everything with their eyes.
I understand this point. Aren't there enough possibilities to change this already, or do you think to integrate this already while installation, etc.?
- mike
Am 28.12.2010 16:47, schrieb Michael Kromer:
I understand this point. Aren't there enough possibilities to change this already, or do you think to integrate this already while installation, etc.?
I don´t find some of this point already for myself. +1 for the installation-integration
kdl
I understand this point. Aren't there enough possibilities to change this
already, or do you think to integrate this already while installation, etc.?
I don´t find some of this point already for myself. +1 for the installation-integration
for gnome: gnome-session-properties ; for kde i don't know, but this might be a good starting point: http://www.bbc.co.uk/accessibility/linux/language/text/os/fonts_kde.shtml
- mike
Dnia wtorek, 28 grudnia 2010 o 17:00:22 Michael Kromer napisał(a):
I understand this point. Aren't there enough possibilities to change this
already, or do you think to integrate this already while installation, etc.?
I don´t find some of this point already for myself. +1 for the installation-integration
for gnome: gnome-session-properties ; for kde i don't know, but this might be a good starting point: http://www.bbc.co.uk/accessibility/linux/language/text/os/fonts_kde.shtml
- mike
For KDE systemsettings: http://docs.kde.org/stable/en/kdebase- workspace/kcontrol/fonts/index.html
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Greg Freemyer -
jdd -
Karsten König -
Kim Leyendecker -
Mariusz Fik -
Martin Schlander -
Michael Kromer