17 Jun
2019
17 Jun
'19
11:08 p.m.
Hi there,
being relatively new to the openSUSE community over the past few weeks
I've been digging through websites and wiki. Quite often I stepped into
traps of unclear, misleading or just plain old content. This lead me to
the conclusion that there's urgent need of restructuring lots of things.
The following is a rough braindump strongly intended as RFC. I try to
visualize my thoughts as good as possible with screenshots.
# First sight
The website opensuse.org in overall is looking good and I really like
the coloring. But looking closer there is a lot of clutter which needs
to be restructured.
Important stuff needs to be visible at first glimpse. See the
screenshot taken on a regular FullHD monitor [1] and try to tell what's
this all about - imagining you don't know what openSUSE is. Why not
tell at first sight:
- this is a Linux distribution
- this is how it looks like
- these three things make it outstanding
Positive examples as comparison: Fedora [2], Solus [3]
# Getting information
To get more details I have to scroll quite a lot and/or click very
often in comparison to the amount of information I get in the end. The
waste of space is too high and it should be reduced. Also these
animations are quite annoying. Especially the bouncing circle when
clicking on "How to contribute" > "Code" just to show a few
sentences
afterwards.
# Consolidate information
## News
News about ongoing development and information about achievements is
one the crucial thing to be spead out widely. The "News" section on
opensuse.org is just way too small and is just drowned out by the
"Tools" and "Contribute" sections. So we should either remove it
there
completely and give it a separate page (See Solus Blog [4]). Or move it
upwards on opensuse.org and make it way more prominent. At least
linking to news.opensuse.org is useless and should be stopped (even
more from a design perspective).
Currently there are way too many places just to get news. Let me
summarize it and - please correct me if I got something wrong:
1. opensuse.org
It grabs first 2-3 sentences of a post and links to it on news.o.o.
2. news.opensuse.org
This filled by Doug and (just guessing) members of news mailing list.
3. lizards.opensuse.org
Looks exactly the same as news.o.o but consists of blog posts by devs
and dev teams. The difference to news.o.o is stated nowhere, the
reasons for this separation not made clear either.
4. planet.opensuse.org
This looks only slightly similar to news.o.o and lizards.o.o, even the
content is different. But: why is dimstar's blog (the TW reviews) and
the Open Build Service blog listed there? Following the logic above it
should at least be in lizards.o.o if not even in news.o.o!
## Website vs. Wiki
Looking at the content of opensuse.org and wiki.opensuse.org I think
there's no clear plan what to put where. My understand of a wiki is a)
collaboratively created content and b) content changing regularly. A
source for documentation if you will.
The "Contribute" section on opensuse.org gives you just a few sentences
but links to a wiki page. This is unnecessary as the ways to contribute
won't hardly change very often. I assume this is mostly done due to the
fact that opensuse.org has hardly any space left for slightly more
detailed information. But that's what a website is made for. Sending
people from URL to URL without giving them a consistent layout is at
best confusing if not frustrating.
Partly positive example: Fedora [5] (sat in comparison to opensuse.org)
That's all for now. I understand that many things have somehow grown
over the years. But as I'm willing to tackle these I am looking forward
to your comments/critics.
Regards,
vinz.
[1] https://vinzv.space/nextcloud/s/HzRmZnH7mwMgkEg
[2] https://vinzv.space/nextcloud/s/nPammszr3Z4me2B
[3] https://vinzv.space/nextcloud/s/G7xwekJPW6S5Dwi
[4] https://getsol.us/blog/
[5] https://vinzv.space/nextcloud/s/nXtaXHfqxwTyAbL
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17 Jun
17 Jun
11:39 p.m.
On pon, cze 17, 2019 at 11:08 PM, Vinzenz Vietzke <vinz(a)vinzv.de> wrote:
Hi there,
being relatively new to the openSUSE community over the past few weeks
I've been digging through websites and wiki. Quite often I stepped
into
traps of unclear, misleading or just plain old content. This lead me
to
the conclusion that there's urgent need of restructuring lots of
things.
The following is a rough braindump strongly intended as RFC. I try to
visualize my thoughts as good as possible with screenshots.
# First sight
The website opensuse.org in overall is looking good and I really like
the coloring. But looking closer there is a lot of clutter which needs
to be restructured.
Important stuff needs to be visible at first glimpse. See the
screenshot taken on a regular FullHD monitor [1] and try to tell
what's
this all about - imagining you don't know what openSUSE is. Why not
tell at first sight:
- this is a Linux distribution
- this is how it looks like
- these three things make it outstanding
Positive examples as comparison: Fedora [2], Solus [3]
I did start doing some work towards getting first mockups of website
going,
but focus more on the `openSUSE` than distributions, leaving the
marketing of
distros to software-o-o. I do believe this is the right direction,
because if
we wanted to sell openSUSE right on the main site, we would not be able
to
mention anything outside of it in enough detail. Distributions are
massive in
terms of what we should actually mention about them, so software-o-o
could
serve the purposes of showcasing the distributions, installation
process, go
into detail about differences between Leap and Tumbleweed. It would
also be
nice to have a dns rule for the distribution part of the site instead of
software-o-o/distributions, maybe something like get.openSUSE.org, so
it's
shorter and easier to type by anybody that wants to share the distros
(but not
the entire project) with other people ;)
# Getting information
To get more details I have to scroll quite a lot and/or click very
often in comparison to the amount of information I get in the end. The
waste of space is too high and it should be reduced. Also these
animations are quite annoying. Especially the bouncing circle when
clicking on "How to contribute" > "Code" just to show a few
sentences
afterwards.
Absolutely, animations aren't just a nice eye candy there, they
function very
often as a roadblock between person and information, which is not
acceptable, I
would be much more in favour of splitting some stuff into subpages just
to get
into enough detail about everything too.
# Consolidate information
## News
News about ongoing development and information about achievements is
one the crucial thing to be spead out widely. The "News" section on
opensuse.org is just way too small and is just drowned out by the
"Tools" and "Contribute" sections. So we should either remove it
there
completely and give it a separate page (See Solus Blog [4]). Or move
it
upwards on opensuse.org and make it way more prominent. At least
linking to news.opensuse.org is useless and should be stopped (even
more from a design perspective).
Currently there are way too many places just to get news. Let me
summarize it and - please correct me if I got something wrong:
1. opensuse.org
It grabs first 2-3 sentences of a post and links to it on news.o.o.
2. news.opensuse.org
This filled by Doug and (just guessing) members of news mailing list.
And news-o-o is the only official place for openSUSE news, I am hoping
that new
news-o-o [1] will be able to replace the wordpress site with something
that
will be way easier to contribute to through github prs. As for the news
widget,
I am glad it exists, it's an easy way to learn that the project isn't
dead yet
;)
3. lizards.opensuse.org
Looks exactly the same as news.o.o but consists of blog posts by devs
and dev teams. The difference to news.o.o is stated nowhere, the
reasons for this separation not made clear either.
Dead basically, I am still waiting for provo to get the stuff off
there, it
tends to be a long process (also YaST team needs blog on our infra,
which is
being worked on).
4. planet.opensuse.org
This looks only slightly similar to news.o.o and lizards.o.o, even the
content is different. But: why is dimstar's blog (the TW reviews) and
the Open Build Service blog listed there? Following the logic above it
should at least be in lizards.o.o if not even in news.o.o!
This is a news aggregator, from multiple contributors, it allows
anybody to add
their own blog to the sources, which is why it will be replacing
lizards (it's
way easier to have own blog with something like github/gitlab pages
too, so it
makes more sense, while it requires less maintenance from our side,
even though
it would be nice to drop python2 there too, contributors wanted!) [2].
## Website vs. Wiki
Looking at the content of opensuse.org and wiki.opensuse.org I think
there's no clear plan what to put where. My understand of a wiki is a)
collaboratively created content and b) content changing regularly. A
source for documentation if you will.
I believe the biggest mistake was separating contents between openSUSE
and SDB
namespaces, when you are looking for software, you are most likely also
looking
for tutorials on how to install and use said software anyway. There is
no
particular reason why this needs to be in SDB articles in most cases.
The "Contribute" section on opensuse.org
gives you just a few
sentences
but links to a wiki page. This is unnecessary as the ways to
contribute
won't hardly change very often. I assume this is mostly done due to
the
fact that opensuse.org has hardly any space left for slightly more
detailed information. But that's what a website is made for. Sending
people from URL to URL without giving them a consistent layout is at
best confusing if not frustrating.
The contributions side of things is being worked on by Imad Aldoj, with
a
dedicated website for helping newcomers with contributions.
Partly positive example: Fedora [5] (sat in comparison
to
opensuse.org)
A better example: https://whatcanidoforfedora.org/en/
That's all for now. I understand that many things
have somehow grown
over the years. But as I'm willing to tackle these I am looking
forward
to your comments/critics.
Regards,
vinz.
[1] https://opensuse.github.io/news-o-o/
[2] https://github.com/openSUSE/planet.opensuse.org
LCP [Stasiek]
https://lcp.world
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18 Jun
18 Jun
1:04 a.m.
Hi,
> # First sight
>
[…]
I did start doing some work towards getting first mockups of website
going,
but focus more on the `openSUSE` than distributions, leaving the
marketing of
distros to software-o-o.
What happened to them?
I do believe this is the right direction,
because if
we wanted to sell openSUSE right on the main site, we would not be
able to
mention anything outside of it in enough detail. Distributions are
massive in
terms of what we should actually mention about them, so software-o-o
could
serve the purposes of showcasing the distributions, installation
process, go
into detail about differences between Leap and Tumbleweed. It would
also be
nice to have a dns rule for the distribution part of the site instead
of software-o-o/distributions, maybe something like get.openSUSE.org,
so it's
shorter and easier to type by anybody that wants to share the distros
(but not
the entire project) with other people ;)
The thing is: opensuse.org is /the/ starting point for everyone with
either little or no knowledge of openSUSE at all. Going to a car store
you don't want to be forced to choose your desired type of car even
befor someone says hello to you.
You want to get an overview: what do they have, what price ranges
areavailable, is the sales man friendly etc. Basic stuff.
Going into detail is a second step and needs to be guided.
> # Getting information
>
[…]
Absolutely, animations aren't just a nice eye
candy there, they
function very
often as a roadblock between person and information, which is not
acceptable, I
would be much more in favour of splitting some stuff into subpages
just to get
into enough detail about everything too.
Yes, I'd favour that as well. A menu is already there so it would be
easy and quick to implement.
> # Consolidate information
>
> ## News
>
[…]
> 3. lizards.opensuse.org
[…]
Dead basically, I am still waiting for provo to get
the stuff off
there, it
tends to be a long process (also YaST team needs blog on our infra,
which is
being worked on).
Any idea what takes them so long? Is there a point we could help?
Don't get me wrong: we're all volunteers, but taking a website
_offline_ is nothing that should take weeks (?) to get done.
And telling YaST team to email their blog posts to Doug instead as well
is nothing to be causing severe trouble.
> ## Website vs. Wiki
[…]
I believe the biggest mistake was separating contents
between
openSUSE and SDB
namespaces, when you are looking for software, you are most likely
also looking
for tutorials on how to install and use said software anyway. There
is no
particular reason why this needs to be in SDB articles in most cases.
Yes! A documentation separated into information and documentation is...
strange somehow. Is there a way to revert that somehow?
The contributions side of things is being worked on by
Imad Aldoj,
with a
dedicated website for helping newcomers with contributions.
Yes, I talked to him as well. Some special site is a great thing for
external marketing and helping people to get on board. Looking at
https://whatcanidoforlibreoffice.org or as you mentioned the Fedora
equivalent is quite what we should get.
Yet there needs to be way more information on opensuse.org. We can't
just point people to some other website.
Regards,
vinz.
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1:26 a.m.
On wto, cze 18, 2019 at 1:04 AM, Vinzenz Vietzke <vinz(a)vinzv.de> wrote:
Yeah, it's not like I would totally remove distributions from there,
but the
choice between Tumbleweed and Leap should be given on software-o-o, not
on the
main page, because there is no way we can explain the difference in a
paragraph
of text hidden under an annoying animation. The primary view, the first
one you
see on the page should be about the distributions, with a single link to
software-o-o, so we can have a space for a solid explanation of
similarities,
differences, software etc.
Yeah, I think we all wonder what takes Provo that long most of the
time, but I
guess as any sysadmin office, they are busy doing their own stuff and
not ours
;) It is more than taking it offline, we need a full copy of
public_html from
wordpress to publish it as archive (and to github repo that already
exists for
this very purpose, but is very much outdated).
YaST Sprints are rather technical in most cases, not the best fit for
news-o-o
tbh. And YaST does have its blog, but it's burried, and
https://yast.opensuse.org is missing a valid ssl certificate. Minor
issues, the
plan is to host YaST blog on static server (which I was supposed to do
a few
months ago, but never got around to), news-o-o would be hosted the same
way.
A lot of manual work...
Quite obviously, but I would rather explain the process of how we get
things
done before mentioning how to contribute, because it's easier to get
into the
process if you know what's up overall.
LCP [Stasiek]
https://lcp.world
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Hi,
What happened was that I couldn't land on something that makes me 100%
happy, I
should share some more ideas and general layout somewhere sometime. In
the end
what caused the stop of any additional progress in January was my
ambition
to make the website too perfect, which cased me enough anxiety that I
stopped
before really starting to get results that would be good enough for a
starting
point, sorry :/
> # First sight
>
[…]
I did start doing some work towards getting first mockups of website
going,
but focus more on the `openSUSE` than distributions, leaving the
marketing of
distros to software-o-o.
What happened to them? I do believe
this is the right direction,
because if
we wanted to sell openSUSE right on the main site, we would not be
able to
mention anything outside of it in enough detail. Distributions are
massive in
terms of what we should actually mention about them, so software-o-o
could
serve the purposes of showcasing the distributions, installation
process, go
into detail about differences between Leap and Tumbleweed. It would
also be
nice to have a dns rule for the distribution part of the site
instead
of software-o-o/distributions, maybe something like
get.openSUSE.org,
so it's
shorter and easier to type by anybody that wants to share the
distros
(but not
the entire project) with other people ;)
The thing is: opensuse.org is /the/ starting point for everyone with
either little or no knowledge of openSUSE at all. Going to a car store
you don't want to be forced to choose your desired type of car even
befor someone says hello to you.
You want to get an overview: what do they have, what price ranges
areavailable, is the sales man friendly etc. Basic stuff.
Going into detail is a second step and needs to be guided.
> # Getting information
>
[…]
Absolutely, animations aren't just a nice
eye candy there, they
function very
often as a roadblock between person and information, which is not
acceptable, I
would be much more in favour of splitting some stuff into subpages
just to get
into enough detail about everything too.
Yes, I'd favour that as well. A menu is already there so it would be
easy and quick to implement.
> # Consolidate information
>
> ## News
>
[…]
> 3. lizards.opensuse.org
[…]
Dead basically, I am still waiting for provo to
get the stuff off
there, it
tends to be a long process (also YaST team needs blog on our infra,
which is
being worked on).
Any idea what takes them so long? Is there a point we could help?
Don't get me wrong: we're all volunteers, but taking a website
_offline_ is nothing that should take weeks (?) to get done.
And telling YaST team to email their blog posts to Doug instead as
well
is nothing to be causing severe trouble.
> ## Website vs. Wiki
[…]
I believe the biggest mistake was separating
contents between
openSUSE and SDB
namespaces, when you are looking for software, you are most likely
also looking
for tutorials on how to install and use said software anyway. There
is no
particular reason why this needs to be in SDB articles in most
cases.
Yes! A documentation separated into information and documentation
is...
strange somehow. Is there a way to revert that somehow? The
contributions side of things is being worked on by Imad Aldoj,
with a
dedicated website for helping newcomers with contributions.
Yes, I talked to him as well. Some special site is a great thing for
external marketing and helping people to get on board. Looking at
https://whatcanidoforlibreoffice.org or as you mentioned the Fedora
equivalent is quite what we should get.
Yet there needs to be way more information on opensuse.org. We can't
just point people to some other website.
19 Jun
19 Jun
1:16 a.m.
Hi,
No need to apologize unless you start sharing the stuff now. I have the
feeling that there are quite a few unfinished ideas around gathering
dust...
Regards,
vinz.
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What happened
to them?
What happened was that I couldn't land on something that makes me
100% happy, I
should share some more ideas and general layout somewhere sometime.
In the end
what caused the stop of any additional progress in January was my
ambition
to make the website too perfect, which cased me enough anxiety that I
stopped
before really starting to get results that would be good enough for a
starting
point, sorry :/ 
18 Jun
18 Jun
2:03 a.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: RFC: How to improve openSUSE websites
On Tue, 18 Jun 2019 01:04:39 +0200, Vinzenz Vietzke wrote:
The thing is: opensuse.org is /the/ starting point for
everyone with
either little or no knowledge of openSUSE at all.
One would think so, but I'm surprised on our FB presence how many people
don't know to go there. The number of questions we see there about
"where do I go to download openSUSE?" or "where can I get more
information" is far higher than I would expect.
--
Jim Henderson
Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits
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9:01 a.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: RFC: How to improve openSUSE websites
Le 18/06/2019 à 02:03, Jim Henderson a écrit :
On Tue, 18 Jun 2019 01:04:39 +0200, Vinzenz Vietzke
wrote:
typing in google "opensuse" send here (first choice)
https://fr.opensuse.org/Bienvenue_sur_openSUSE.org
wich is fine, but I see in the page no "get openSUSE" entry and I don't
find a simple way do download the dvd :-(
jdd
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The thing is: opensuse.org is /the/ starting
point for everyone with
either little or no knowledge of openSUSE at all.
One would think so, but I'm surprised on our FB presence how many people
don't know to go there. The number of questions we see there about
"where do I go to download openSUSE?" or "where can I get more
information" is far higher than I would expect.
9:35 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: RFC: How to improve openSUSE websites
Am Tue, 18 Jun 2019 09:01:30 +0200
schrieb "jdd(a)dodin.org" <jdd(a)dodin.org>rg>:
typing in google "opensuse" send here (first
choice)
https://fr.opensuse.org/Bienvenue_sur_openSUSE.org
wich is fine, but I see in the page no "get openSUSE" entry and I
don't find a simple way do download the dvd :-(
Yes. Somehow the wiki has better search engine optimizations than the
website itself.
On the other hand it's no surprise that a website with hardly any
informations gets ranked lower on Google than the wiki.
Regards,
vinz.
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19 Jun
19 Jun
1:38 a.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] How to improve openSUSE websites
Ensure all dates site-wide are and stay in ISO 8601 format. It's a worldwide
project with worldwide users. Dates like 05/06/07 and 06/18/19 are ambiguous if
not obstructive.
--
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Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!
Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/
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18 Jun
18 Jun
9:05 a.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: RFC: How to improve openSUSE websites
On 6/18/19 2:03 AM, Jim Henderson wrote:
On Tue, 18 Jun 2019 01:04:39 +0200, Vinzenz Vietzke
wrote:
I made a few adjustments to the social media pages as well as to the
descriptions. I added a few more links as well to software.o.o.,
lists.o.o and news.o.o. For the user group, it seems a bit more
difficult as there is no description. Perhaps you can update your pinned
post Jim with some of the info as well?
v/r
Doug
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The thing is: opensuse.org is /the/ starting
point for everyone with
either little or no knowledge of openSUSE at all.
One would think so, but I'm
surprised on our FB presence how many people
don't know to go there. The number of questions we see there about
"where do I go to download openSUSE?" or "where can I get more
information" is far higher than I would expect.
5:48 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: RFC: How to improve openSUSE websites
On Tue, 18 Jun 2019 09:05:45 +0200, ddemaio wrote:
I made a few adjustments to the social media pages as
well as to the
descriptions. I added a few more links as well to software.o.o.,
lists.o.o and news.o.o. For the user group, it seems a bit more
difficult as there is no description. Perhaps you can update your pinned
post Jim with some of the info as well?
Not a bad idea, I'll take a look at it. FB has made some changes to how
rules can be posted as well, and I've been thinking about updating ours
to make them a little more easily consumed.
The page and the group are now linked as well, which should help
somewhat. But I did see on the page that there's a settings change
coming related to the description - guessing that's the change you made).
--
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19 Jun
19 Jun
1:17 a.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: RFC: How to improve openSUSE websites
On Tue, 18 Jun 2019 09:05:45 +0200, ddemaio wrote:
I made a few adjustments to the social media pages as
well as to the
descriptions.
I did notice looking at the page that there are a couple settings that
are being deprecated in early August - are those changes reflected in the
description, or is that something that's "yet to come"?
(We can take this offline if you like)
--
Jim Henderson
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7:32 a.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: RFC: How to improve openSUSE websites
On 6/19/19 1:17 AM, Jim Henderson wrote:
On Tue, 18 Jun 2019 09:05:45 +0200, ddemaio wrote:
There were a couple fields that are going to be deleted, so I basically
took the info in those fields and pasted it into the one that will
remain. I think the date for the change is at the end of the month.
v/r
Doug
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I made a few adjustments to the social media
pages as well as to the
descriptions.
I did notice looking at the page that there are a couple settings
that
are being deprecated in early August - are those changes reflected in the
description, or is that something that's "yet to come"?
(We can take this offline if you like)
11:36 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: RFC: How to improve openSUSE websites
On Wed, 19 Jun 2019 07:32:02 +0200, ddemaio wrote:
There were a couple fields that are going to be
deleted, so I basically
took the info in those fields and pasted it into the one that will
remain. I think the date for the change is at the end of the month.
Cool, I figured that you'd be on it, so I just left it alone.
I'll look to do the same on the group, probably this weekend (crazy work
week for me this week)
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12 Sep
12 Sep
3:10 a.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: RFC: How to improve openSUSE websites
On Tue, 18 Jun 2019 09:05:45 +0200, ddemaio wrote:
Perhaps you can update your pinned post Jim with some
of the info as
well?
Hey, Doug -
I finally had some time to tweak this - I actually deleted the pinned
post and wrote a new one, put the links in the group description, and
moved the rules to where Facebook now puts them by default (as "Rules"
under "About"). Should look a lot cleaner now.
Took a lot longer to get to this than I had thought - if there's anything
I missed, drop me a line and let me know, and I'll get it changed (much
more quickly than it took for this round).
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18 Jun
18 Jun
9:52 a.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: RFC: How to improve openSUSE websites
On Tuesday, 18 June 2019 02:03:10 CEST Jim Henderson wrote:
On Tue, 18 Jun 2019 01:04:39 +0200, Vinzenz Vietzke
wrote:
That's true. Even true to other openSUSE and Linux social media groups.
Although I don't know why, because the Leap 15.1 download link is extremely
present on the opensuse.org landingpage. Although when not landing on the
mainpage navigation etc becomes a bit cluttered. So we might want to think
about improving the general UI and UX to be more streamlined with important
links present everywhere in the main menues like the Wiki/Documentation and
download pages.
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The thing is: opensuse.org is /the/ starting
point for everyone with
either little or no knowledge of openSUSE at all.
One would think so, but I'm surprised on our FB presence how many people
don't know to go there. The number of questions we see there about
"where do I go to download openSUSE?" or "where can I get more
information" is far higher than I would expect.
5:45 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: RFC: How to improve openSUSE websites
On Tue, 18 Jun 2019 09:52:00 +0200, Pierre Böckmann wrote:
On Tuesday, 18 June 2019 02:03:10 CEST Jim Henderson
wrote:
I tend to attribute it to people's laziness - it's easier to ask a
question than search for what you're looking for (at least in a lot of
peoples' eyes; I don't get that myself, if I want to know something, I
can search and get an answer now rather than having to come back when
someone answers).
But it always makes me shake my head when I see it.
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On Tue, 18 Jun 2019 01:04:39 +0200, Vinzenz
Vietzke wrote:
That's true. Even true to other openSUSE and Linux social media groups.
Although I don't know why, because the Leap 15.1 download link is
extremely present on the opensuse.org landingpage. Although when not
landing on the mainpage navigation etc becomes a bit cluttered. So we
might want to think about improving the general UI and UX to be more
streamlined with important links present everywhere in the main menues
like the Wiki/Documentation and download pages. The thing is: opensuse.org is /the/ starting
point for everyone with
either little or no knowledge of openSUSE at all.
One would think so, but I'm surprised on our FB presence how many
people don't know to go there. The number of questions we see there
about "where do I go to download openSUSE?" or "where can I get more
information" is far higher than I would expect.
9:36 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: RFC: How to improve openSUSE websites
Am Tue, 18 Jun 2019 15:45:26 -0000 (UTC)
schrieb Jim Henderson <hendersj(a)gmail.com>om>:
Yes, it's somewhat miraculous why people type their questions into some
community website instead of a search engine. But be it as it is:
The common questions need to get answered on opensuse.org and be
accessible there with as few clicks as possible.
Regards,
vinz.
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That's
true. Even true to other openSUSE and Linux social media
groups. Although I don't know why, because the Leap 15.1 download
link is extremely present on the opensuse.org landingpage. Although
when not landing on the mainpage navigation etc becomes a bit
cluttered. So we might want to think about improving the general UI
and UX to be more streamlined with important links present
everywhere in the main menues like the Wiki/Documentation and
download pages.
I tend to attribute it to people's laziness - it's easier to ask a
question than search for what you're looking for (at least in a lot
of peoples' eyes; I don't get that myself, if I want to know
something, I can search and get an answer now rather than having to
come back when someone answers).
But it always makes me shake my head when I see it.
9:45 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: RFC: How to improve openSUSE websites
On Tue, 18 Jun 2019 21:36:49 +0200, Vinzenz Vietzke wrote:
Yes, it's somewhat miraculous why people type
their questions into some
community website instead of a search engine. But be it as it is:
The common questions need to get answered on opensuse.org and be
accessible there with as few clicks as possible.
100% agreed. We can educate people to look where the answers are only if
the answers are actually there. :)
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19 Jun
19 Jun
9:17 a.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: RFC: How to improve openSUSE websites
On Tuesday, 18 June 2019 21:45:30 CEST Jim Henderson wrote:
On Tue, 18 Jun 2019 21:36:49 +0200, Vinzenz Vietzke
wrote:
That's the point!
And as soon as they are visible and easily find we will have less common
questions asked on community forums and chats. :-)
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Yes, it's somewhat miraculous why people type
their questions into some
community website instead of a search engine. But be it as it is:
The common questions need to get answered on opensuse.org and be
accessible there with as few clicks as possible.
100% agreed. We can educate people to look where the answers are only if
the answers are actually there. :) 
9:30 a.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: RFC: How to improve openSUSE websites
On 19/06/2019 09.17, Pierre Böckmann wrote:
On Tuesday, 18 June 2019 21:45:30 CEST Jim Henderson
wrote:
The old SDB attempted to be a list of solutions for typical problems,
among other things.
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Carlos E. R.
(from 15.0 x86_64 at Telcontar)
On Tue, 18 Jun 2019 21:36:49 +0200, Vinzenz
Vietzke wrote:
That's the point!
And as soon as they are visible and easily find we will have less common
questions asked on community forums and chats. :-) Yes, it's somewhat miraculous why people type
their questions into some
community website instead of a search engine. But be it as it is:
The common questions need to get answered on opensuse.org and be
accessible there with as few clicks as possible.
100% agreed. We can educate people to look where the answers are only if
the answers are actually there. :)
11:35 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: RFC: How to improve openSUSE websites
On Wed, 19 Jun 2019 09:17:41 +0200, Pierre Böckmann wrote:
We can certainly hope that happens. :D
Jim
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100% agreed.
We can educate people to look where the answers are only
if the answers are actually there. :)
That's the point!
And as soon as they are visible and easily find we will have less common
questions asked on community forums and chats. :-)
18 Jun
18 Jun
11:24 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: RFC: How to improve openSUSE websites
On 18/06/2019 21.36, Vinzenz Vietzke wrote:
Am Tue, 18 Jun 2019 15:45:26 -0000 (UTC)
schrieb Jim Henderson <hendersj(a)gmail.com>om>:
Yes, it's somewhat miraculous why people type their questions into some
community website instead of a search engine. But be it as it is:
The common questions need to get answered on opensuse.org and be
accessible there with as few clicks as possible.
Because the answers are more intelligent. A google search only sometimes
answers correctly, it needs the adequately correct question.
--
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Carlos E. R.
(from 15.0 x86_64 at Telcontar)
That's true. Even true to other openSUSE and Linux social media
groups. Although I don't know why, because the Leap 15.1 download
link is extremely present on the opensuse.org landingpage. Although
when not landing on the mainpage navigation etc becomes a bit
cluttered. So we might want to think about improving the general UI
and UX to be more streamlined with important links present
everywhere in the main menues like the Wiki/Documentation and
download pages.
I tend to attribute it to people's laziness - it's easier to ask a
question than search for what you're looking for (at least in a lot
of peoples' eyes; I don't get that myself, if I want to know
something, I can search and get an answer now rather than having to
come back when someone answers).
But it always makes me shake my head when I see it.
19 Jun
19 Jun
1:12 a.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: RFC: How to improve openSUSE websites
Am Tue, 18 Jun 2019 23:24:36 +0200
schrieb "Carlos E. R." <robin.listas(a)telefonica.net>et>:
Because the answers are more intelligent. A google
search only
sometimes answers correctly, it needs the adequately correct question.
I wouldn't bet on that...
But that's another topic.
Regards,
vinz.
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1:16 a.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: RFC: How to improve openSUSE websites
On Tue, 18 Jun 2019 23:24:36 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Because the answers are more intelligent. A google
search only sometimes
answers correctly, it needs the adequately correct question.
Ultimately, it depends on the complexity of the question.
If the question is "where do I get openSUSE?" - that's something that
should be easy to find, and logic would dictate that going to the project
website should provide some easy clues about that.
If the question is "my system is crashing with a stack dump in the nVidia
proprietary video driver, what do I do?" - that maybe is a more complex
question that merits asking in a forum or on a mailing list (even though
the answer may be "don't use nVidia video cards" - which may be a correct
answer, but is also usually not a helpful answer).
Questions where "recall" is the method used should be answered before
they're asked, if they're common.
Questions that require knowledge synthesis, OTOH, make more sense to ask
a group of experts.
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18 Jun
18 Jun
12:11 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: RFC: How to improve openSUSE websites
On 18/06/2019 02.03, Jim Henderson wrote:
On Tue, 18 Jun 2019 01:04:39 +0200, Vinzenz Vietzke
wrote:
The first site I go when I want to find about some new (to me) project,
is the Wikipedia. From there I might go to the "Official website"
listed there.
--
Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R.
(from 15.0 x86_64 at Telcontar)
The thing is: opensuse.org is /the/ starting
point for everyone with
either little or no knowledge of openSUSE at all.
One would think so, but I'm surprised on our FB presence how many people
don't know to go there. The number of questions we see there about
"where do I go to download openSUSE?" or "where can I get more
information" is far higher than I would expect.
12:05 p.m.
On 18/06/2019 01.04, Vinzenz Vietzke wrote:
I need to use bookmarks to bypass that entry page and get directly to
the stuff I need. Those animations don't help, IMO.
...
You have missed doc.opensuse.org (aka rtfm.opensuse.org) :-)
The SDB is historic. Two decades ago it was a collection of text files
we could download and even install as an rpm, and be served from our
local apache if we wanted. Each entry possibly written by a single
person that knew that particular stuff inside out, ie, probably the
packager.
--
Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R.
(from 15.0 x86_64 at Telcontar)
Hi,
>> # First sight
...
> # Getting
information
>
[…]
Absolutely, animations aren't just a nice eye
candy there, they
function very often as a roadblock between person and information,
which is not acceptable, I would be much more in favour of
splitting some stuff into subpages just to get into enough detail
about everything too.
Yes, I'd favour that as well. A menu is already there so it would be
easy and quick to implement. > ## Website
vs. Wiki
[…]
I believe the biggest mistake was separating
contents between
openSUSE and SDB namespaces, when you are looking for software, you
are most likely also looking for tutorials on how to install and
use said software anyway. There is no particular reason why this
needs to be in SDB articles in most cases.
Yes! A documentation separated into information and documentation is...
strange somehow. Is there a way to revert that somehow?
12:08 p.m.
Le 18/06/2019 à 12:05, Carlos E. R. a écrit :
The SDB is historic. Two decades ago it was a
collection of text files
we could download and even install as an rpm, and be served from our
local apache if we wanted. Each entry possibly written by a single
person that knew that particular stuff inside out, ie, probably the
packager.
no, anybody, but with strict organization. But now there is also a
(pretty good) manual somewhere
jdd
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9:40 p.m.
Am Tue, 18 Jun 2019 12:05:02 +0200
schrieb "Carlos E. R." <robin.listas(a)telefonica.net>et>:
Not really. In fact I just did not start to dig more detailed into the
whole documentation and tutorial bits. That's yet another big mess to
tackle...
Regards,
vinz.
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Yes! A
documentation separated into information and documentation
is... strange somehow. Is there a way to revert that somehow?
You have missed doc.opensuse.org (aka rtfm.opensuse.org) :-) 
19 Jun
19 Jun
2:10 p.m.
Hey,
On 18.06.19 12:05, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Each entry possibly written by a single
person that knew that particular stuff inside out, ie, probably the
packager.
It was a collaboratively edited by many people (mostly from the SUSE
support departments), it was a semantic (each article/section had lots
of metadata) wiki before there where semantic wikis :-)
As most often, the idea (document common problems & fixes/workarounds)
today is still valid but the execution (people taking care of SDB
content) today is weak.
</grandpa>
Henne
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Everybody has a plan, until they get hit.
- Mike Tyson
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8:14 p.m.
On 19/06/2019 14.10, Henne Vogelsang wrote:
Hey,
On 18.06.19 12:05, Carlos E. R. wrote:
:-D
I tell you, it was a godsend. It was one of the things that tied me to
openSUSE. At that time (pre 2000), downloading the packaged SDB took
some time over my slow modem, but was worth it.
Thanks a lot!
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Carlos E. R.
(from 15.0 x86_64 at Telcontar)
Each entry possibly written by a single
person that knew that particular stuff inside out, ie, probably the
packager.
It was a collaboratively edited by many people (mostly from the SUSE
support departments), it was a semantic (each article/section had lots
of metadata) wiki before there where semantic wikis :-)
As most often, the idea (document common problems & fixes/workarounds)
today is still valid but the execution (people taking care of SDB
content) today is weak.
</grandpa>
20 Jun
20 Jun
12:53 a.m.
Hi,
Following the replies and feedback in this thread I started to draft a
reworked opensuse.org:
- took chameleon bootstrap theme [1]
- adapted it to a basic structure
- copy/pasted a few contents
You can click through it [2] or even pull the code [3].
Please keep in mind that this is a very rough, unpolished draft far
from completion. My intention is to outline a structure how the site
could work.
Looking forward to your comments or even code commits rightaway!
Regards,
vinz.
[1] https://github.com/openSUSE/opensuse-theme-chameleon
[2] https://vinzv.de/dev/opensuse/
[3] https://github.com/vinzv/opensuse-landingpage
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8:33 a.m.
On czw, cze 20, 2019 at 12:53 AM, Vinzenz Vietzke <vinz(a)vinzv.de> wrote:
Hi,
Following the replies and feedback in this thread I started to draft a
reworked opensuse.org:
- took chameleon bootstrap theme [1]
- adapted it to a basic structure
- copy/pasted a few contents
You can click through it [2] or even pull the code [3].
Please keep in mind that this is a very rough, unpolished draft far
from completion. My intention is to outline a structure how the site
could work.
Looking forward to your comments or even code commits rightaway!
Regards,
vinz.
[1] https://github.com/openSUSE/opensuse-theme-chameleon
[2] https://vinzv.de/dev/opensuse/
[3] https://github.com/vinzv/opensuse-landingpage
I drew a quick mockup [1] for the sake of it, I didn't think that there
are not
enough links to external pages, and too many subpages there, so I
consolidated
most of it. I don't really see why the page shouldn't be as long as it
currently is, as long as it uses the space in ways that make sense ;)
(This mockup probably has the worst spacing ever anyway, but we will
fix that
in post)
The distributions section got shorter, you get that at the absolute
top, while
letting the software-o-o explain tw and leap in more detail instead.
Tools are represented in categories, so we can explain how they fit into
overall openSUSE goals, while staying relatively short and concise.
News are just one (latest) article sourced from news-o-o, it also links
to
news-o-o, in case you want to see more news.
Some explanation about who openSUSE Community is, that will require
some more
links than just events, but it's a good start on having people
understand that
we aren't that scary (hopefully ;)
Contributions, well, it will point to the site that Imad Aldoj is
making, as
well as subpage about hardware donations, it still requires some more
contents,
but will probably be a little easier to navigate.
I also feel, this is probably the worst time to be making this, we will
need to
remake the page after logo changes, after colour changes, after name
changes,
after foundation happens anyway, which is being discussed right now.
Maybe we
should wait?
[1]
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/496049131928682506/59114854945089129…
LCP [Stasiek]
https://lcp.world
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2:05 p.m.
Hi,
in advance: can you please fix your email client's wrapping? It's
really hard to read your emails.
I drew a quick mockup [1] for the sake of it, I
didn't think that
there are not
enough links to external pages, and too many subpages there, so I
consolidated
most of it. I don't really see why the page shouldn't be as long as it
currently is, as long as it uses the space in ways that make sense ;)
(This mockup probably has the worst spacing ever anyway, but we will
fix that
in post)
The distributions section got shorter, you get that at the absolute
top, while
letting the software-o-o explain tw and leap in more detail instead.
Tools are represented in categories, so we can explain how they fit
into overall openSUSE goals, while staying relatively short and
concise.
News are just one (latest) article sourced from news-o-o, it also
links to
news-o-o, in case you want to see more news.
Some explanation about who openSUSE Community is, that will require
some more
links than just events, but it's a good start on having people
understand that
we aren't that scary (hopefully ;)
Contributions, well, it will point to the site that Imad Aldoj is
making, as
well as subpage about hardware donations, it still requires some more
contents,
but will probably be a little easier to navigate.
Hm, that whole story is a bit frustrating to be honest.
I haven't seen the mockups yet you mentioned earlier in this thread. So
I had to start somewhere out of the blue which is quite pointless when
there are things around being already half finished.
But now you're coming around the corner with a 90% copy of the current
landing page. All in all you gave it different fonts and made the
colours more eye burning but kept the unclear overall structure.
I also feel, this is probably the worst time to be making this, we
will need to
remake the page after logo changes, after colour changes, after name
changes,
after foundation happens anyway, which is being discussed right now.
Maybe we
should wait?
Wait until when? Settling the foundation alone will take up to 6
months. But even leaving it out there's still not a single date or time
span for logo and renaming around at all. Which means it will take 2-3
months at minimum until there is any final decision in sight.
That aside: changing color codes and switching logos is no rocket
science.
Regards,
vinz.
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2:17 p.m.
On 20/06/2019 14.05, Vinzenz Vietzke wrote:
Hi,
in advance: can you please fix your email client's wrapping? It's
really hard to read your emails.
His mail looks fine here :-?
There is a problem with the automatic wrapping when replying to him, though.
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Carlos E. R.
(from 15.0 x86_64 at Telcontar)
2:59 p.m.
Am Thu, 20 Jun 2019 14:17:53 +0200
schrieb "Carlos E. R." <robin.listas(a)telefonica.net>et>:
His mail looks fine here :-?
There is a problem with the automatic wrapping when replying to him,
though.
Sure? Even the web archive of this list shows the messed up wrapping:
https://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2019-06/msg00253.html
Regards,
vinz.
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3:12 p.m.
* Vinzenz Vietzke <vinz(a)vinzv.de> [06-20-19 09:01]:
Am Thu, 20 Jun 2019 14:17:53 +0200
schrieb "Carlos E. R." <robin.listas(a)telefonica.net>et>:
they look fine to me viewing and replying and on the archive.
but I use a text client, mutt. perhaps you both have a problem with your
client configuration or you client is deficient.
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His mail looks fine here :-?
There is a problem with the automatic wrapping when replying to him,
though.
Sure? Even the web archive of this list shows the messed up wrapping:
https://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2019-06/msg00253.html
6:21 p.m.
Am Thu, 20 Jun 2019 09:12:22 -0400
schrieb Patrick Shanahan <paka(a)opensuse.org>rg>:
they look fine to me viewing and replying and on the
archive.
but I use a text client, mutt. perhaps you both have a problem with
your client configuration or you client is deficient.
Nope. Problem was Stasiek's char count of 79 which is non-standard.
Problem solved.
Regards,
vinz.
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6:38 p.m.
* Vinzenz Vietzke <vinz(a)vinzv.de> [06-20-19 12:22]:
Am Thu, 20 Jun 2019 09:12:22 -0400
schrieb Patrick Shanahan <paka(a)opensuse.org>rg>:
standard is <80 chars, and iirc 72 is suggested. your client is
apparently only able to adjust to "72" chars. what will you do if someone
sends 70 or doesn't wrap as is quite common amoung the unwashed?
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they look fine to me viewing and replying and on
the archive.
but I use a text client, mutt. perhaps you both have a problem with
your client configuration or you client is deficient.
Nope. Problem was Stasiek's char count of 79 which is non-standard.
Problem solved.
7:15 p.m.
Am Thu, 20 Jun 2019 12:38:31 -0400
schrieb Patrick Shanahan <paka(a)opensuse.org>rg>:
standard is <80 chars, and iirc 72 is suggested.
your client is
apparently only able to adjust to "72" chars. what will you do if
someone sends 70 or doesn't wrap as is quite common amoung the
unwashed?
As said: the problem is solved. You're going off topic.
Regards,
vinz.
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6:41 p.m.
On 20/06/2019 14.59, Vinzenz Vietzke wrote:
Am Thu, 20 Jun 2019 14:17:53 +0200
schrieb "Carlos E. R." <robin.listas(a)telefonica.net>et>:
Sorry, I don't see the problem there. I only notice that line length varies a lot, but
it could be because the font is proportional when it should be fixed.
The problem I see is not while reading the post. Example, as it displays here (I had to
disable automatic wrap, so this post has long lines):
+++--------------
I drew a quick mockup [1] for the sake of it, I didn't think that there are not
enough links to external pages, and too many subpages there, so I consolidated
most of it. I don't really see why the page shouldn't be as long as it
currently is, as long as it uses the space in ways that make sense
(This mockup probably has the worst spacing ever anyway, but we will fix that
in post)
--------------++-
When quoting, this is done as:
His mail looks fine here :-?
There is a problem with the automatic wrapping when replying to him,
though.
Sure? Even the web archive of this list shows the messed up wrapping:
https://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2019-06/msg00253.html I drew a quick mockup [1] for the sake of it, I
didn't think that there
are not
enough links to external pages, and too many subpages there, so I
consolidated
most of it. I don't really see why the page shouldn't be as long as it
currently is, as long as it uses the space in ways that make sense ;)
(This mockup probably has the worst spacing ever anyway, but we will fix
that
in post)
which is strange. The explanation is seen looking at the raw text in the email:
+++--------------
I drew a quick mockup [1] for the sake of it, I didn't think that there
are not
enough links to external pages, and too many subpages there, so I
consolidated
most of it. I don't really see why the page shouldn't be as long as it
currently is, as long as it uses the space in ways that make sense ;)
(This mockup probably has the worst spacing ever anyway, but we will
fix that
in post)
--------------++-
Better looking at the first line of that paragraph in hex:
00000400 67 65 0a 0a 49 20 64 72 65 77 20 61 20 71 75 69 |ge..I drew a qui|
00000410 63 6b 20 6d 6f 63 6b 75 70 20 5b 31 5d 20 66 6f |ck mockup [1] fo|
00000420 72 20 74 68 65 20 73 61 6b 65 20 6f 66 20 69 74 |r the sake of it|
00000430 2c 20 49 20 64 69 64 6e 27 74 20 74 68 69 6e 6b |, I didn't think|
00000440 20 74 68 61 74 20 74 68 65 72 65 20 0a 61 72 65 | that there .are|
00000450 20 6e 6f 74 0a 65 6e 6f 75 67 68 20 6c 69 6e 6b | not.enough link|
There is a '0a' (LF) before "are not" and another after the
"not". This is perhaps what you are seeing. Some clients are able to cope with
that, while others are not. But both Thunderbird and Alpine show the problem when quoting
the text.
--
Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R.
(from 15.0 x86_64 at Telcontar)
3:24 p.m.
Hey Vinzv,
I completely agree with your points but I also understand where lcp is
coming from and I wish it was as simple as changing the color... but
we might end up starting from scratch again if a complete rebranding
takes place (for example just making the logo circular will lead to
changes in the navbar which may no longer work well with the rest of
landing page and so on)
I'm afraid we're fighting on many fronts right now, so I suggest the
following: for now we can improve the website but not in a dramatic
way just to make it right and without rushing it up.
By waiting a couple of months, we'll have a better(although maybe not
polished but still better) vision about the future of the branding/
the foundation/ the name and all of this. the outcome of these even if
it was "no foundation, stay with the current brand" then that's stable
enough to build on, and in the case of rebranding, we don't have to
wait for everything to finish, as soon as the name settle down we can
work on branding/design language and shortly after the website
architecture and design.
So the points are valid and we all agree that the website can use some
improvement but we need to take the timeline into account.
Hope you find this somewhat convenient.
On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 3:05 PM Vinzenz Vietzke <vinz(a)vinzv.de> wrote:
Hi,
in advance: can you please fix your email client's wrapping? It's
really hard to read your emails.
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I drew a quick mockup [1] for the sake of it, I
didn't think that
there are not
enough links to external pages, and too many subpages there, so I
consolidated
most of it. I don't really see why the page shouldn't be as long as it
currently is, as long as it uses the space in ways that make sense ;)
(This mockup probably has the worst spacing ever anyway, but we will
fix that
in post)
The distributions section got shorter, you get that at the absolute
top, while
letting the software-o-o explain tw and leap in more detail instead.
Tools are represented in categories, so we can explain how they fit
into overall openSUSE goals, while staying relatively short and
concise.
News are just one (latest) article sourced from news-o-o, it also
links to
news-o-o, in case you want to see more news.
Some explanation about who openSUSE Community is, that will require
some more
links than just events, but it's a good start on having people
understand that
we aren't that scary (hopefully ;)
Contributions, well, it will point to the site that Imad Aldoj is
making, as
well as subpage about hardware donations, it still requires some more
contents,
but will probably be a little easier to navigate.
Hm, that whole story is a bit frustrating to be honest.
I haven't seen the mockups yet you mentioned earlier in this thread. So
I had to start somewhere out of the blue which is quite pointless when
there are things around being already half finished.
But now you're coming around the corner with a 90% copy of the current
landing page. All in all you gave it different fonts and made the
colours more eye burning but kept the unclear overall structure.
I also feel, this is probably the worst time to be making this, we
will need to
remake the page after logo changes, after colour changes, after name
changes,
after foundation happens anyway, which is being discussed right now.
Maybe we
should wait?
Wait until when? Settling the foundation alone will take up to 6
months. But even leaving it out there's still not a single date or time
span for logo and renaming around at all. Which means it will take 2-3
months at minimum until there is any final decision in sight.
That aside: changing color codes and switching logos is no rocket
science.
Regards,
vinz.
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5:13 p.m.
On czw, cze 20, 2019 at 2:05 PM, Vinzenz Vietzke <vinz(a)vinzv.de> wrote:
Attribute the eye burning colours to the awful colour palette openSUSE
has, which instead of enabling more interesting designs causes
everything to way too bright
The worst part is that this is how the colours were supposed to be used,
despite not being fit for the purpose (at least that's how they appear
to be used in marketing materials).
And despite the fact that it is a 90% of the current landing page, it
fixes all the issues that the current page has in my opinion:
* Links more to external resources instead of relying on the landing
page itself (software-o-o already explains the differences between
distributions, why duplicate, news-o-o already has all the news, why
duplicate, contributions page will have all the details about
contributing, why duplicate)
* Gives more space to projects other than distributions
* References to openSUSE as us, not them
* Mentions community more
If we want to fix the way openSUSE Distributions are presented to
people, we should need to do it in one place, not two or three (there is
also some stuff on the wiki after all).
And obviously mockup is half finished, it's a mockup, it shows ideas,
it took me a few minutes to make it, don't expect a Mona Lisa out of a
sketch ;)
It isn't, but I would hope all of this would be tied together. It's
just a few years at most, we can wait :P
LCP [Stasiek]
https://lcp.world
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Hi,
in advance: can you please fix your email client's wrapping? It's
really hard to read your emails.
I guess having 79 characters per line doesn't work too well, changed
it to 72
I drew a
quick mockup [1] for the sake of it, I didn't think that
there are not
enough links to external pages, and too many subpages there, so I
consolidated
most of it. I don't really see why the page shouldn't be as long as
it
currently is, as long as it uses the space in ways that make sense
;)
(This mockup probably has the worst spacing ever anyway, but we will
fix that
in post)
The distributions section got shorter, you get that at the absolute
top, while
letting the software-o-o explain tw and leap in more detail instead.
Tools are represented in categories, so we can explain how they fit
into overall openSUSE goals, while staying relatively short and
concise.
News are just one (latest) article sourced from news-o-o, it also
links to
news-o-o, in case you want to see more news.
Some explanation about who openSUSE Community is, that will require
some more
links than just events, but it's a good start on having people
understand that
we aren't that scary (hopefully ;)
Contributions, well, it will point to the site that Imad Aldoj is
making, as
well as subpage about hardware donations, it still requires some
more
contents,
but will probably be a little easier to navigate.
Hm, that whole story is a bit frustrating to be honest.
I haven't seen the mockups yet you mentioned earlier in this thread.
So
I had to start somewhere out of the blue which is quite pointless when
there are things around being already half finished.
But now you're coming around the corner with a 90% copy of the current
landing page. All in all you gave it different fonts and made the
colours more eye burning but kept the unclear overall structure.
I also feel, this is probably the worst time to be making this, we
will need to
remake the page after logo changes, after colour changes, after name
changes,
after foundation happens anyway, which is being discussed right now.
Maybe we
should wait?
Wait until when? Settling the foundation alone will take up to 6
months. But even leaving it out there's still not a single date or
time
span for logo and renaming around at all. Which means it will take 2-3
months at minimum until there is any final decision in sight.
That aside: changing color codes and switching logos is no rocket
science.
7:26 p.m.
Am Thu, 20 Jun 2019 17:13:22 +0200
schrieb Stasiek Michalski <hellcp(a)opensuse.org>rg>:
Thanks, much better now.
So why not unclutter it and use one or two main colors? It's not
like we have you use every tone given from the palette as if it was
the holy grail.
We agreed on the overall web presence being at best not satisfying. So
why wait until the tasks are stacked?
Regards,
vinz.
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in advance:
can you please fix your email client's wrapping? It's
really hard to read your emails.
I guess having 79 characters per line doesn't work too well, changed
it to 72 Hm, that whole
story is a bit frustrating to be honest.
I haven't seen the mockups yet you mentioned earlier in this
thread. So
I had to start somewhere out of the blue which is quite pointless
when there are things around being already half finished.
But now you're coming around the corner with a 90% copy of the
current landing page. All in all you gave it different fonts and
made the colours more eye burning but kept the unclear overall
structure.
Attribute the eye burning colours to the awful colour palette openSUSE
has, which instead of enabling more interesting designs causes
everything to way too bright
The worst part is that this is how the colours were supposed to be
used, despite not being fit for the purpose (at least that's how they
appear to be used in marketing materials).
And despite the fact that it is a 90% of the current landing page, it
fixes all the issues that the current page has in my opinion:
* Links more to external resources instead of relying on the landing
page itself (software-o-o already explains the differences between
distributions, why duplicate, news-o-o already has all the news, why
duplicate, contributions page will have all the details about
contributing, why duplicate)
Sending people from A to B to C with always different layouts. That is
so wrong. I'd prefer any duplication instead of this navigation mess.
* Gives more space to projects other than
distributions
* References to openSUSE as us, not them
* Mentions community more
If we want to fix the way openSUSE Distributions are presented to
people, we should need to do it in one place, not two or three (there
is also some stuff on the wiki after all).
Please re-read your first bullet point. You're dissenting with yourself
here now.
Wait until
when? Settling the foundation alone will take up to 6
months. But even leaving it out there's still not a single date or
time
span for logo and renaming around at all. Which means it will take
2-3 months at minimum until there is any final decision in sight.
That aside: changing color codes and switching logos is no rocket
science.
It isn't, but I would hope all of this would be tied together. It's
just a few years at most, we can wait :P
9:06 p.m.
On czw, cze 20, 2019 at 7:26 PM, Vinzenz Vietzke <vinz(a)vinzv.de> wrote:
All of those places do, or already have plans to move to new navigation
bar/footer with chameleon migration (except OSEM), It's the same
navigation for this very reason. We certainly can't avoid not linking
elsewhere, so why not link everything externally, especially since
that's where the content already is.
Nope, I'm repeating myself, I want one place with all the basic
information you need on distributions, without the need to edit many of
them to fit the current state. So moving everything to software-o-o
seems like the most sensible way to do it.
We agreed on the overall web presence being at best not satisfying. So
why wait until the tasks are stacked?
We can already fix a bulk of it by forming a plan for fixing
software-o-o's presentation of distributions, cleaning up wiki from
useless stuff that is already said in other places, fixing OSEM to use
the same navigation as existing openSUSE websites, stuff that might not
be related to the main site at this moment, but would make navigating
between websites easier and more informational.
LCP [Stasiek]
https://lcp.world
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Am Thu, 20 Jun 2019 17:13:22 +0200
schrieb Stasiek Michalski <hellcp(a)opensuse.org>rg>:
Thanks, much better now.
So why not unclutter it and use one or two main colors? It's not
like we have you use every tone given from the palette as if it was
the holy grail.
Eh, this particular green gets worse the darker it gets, it's certainly
less eye burning, but that's not helping it look any better.
in
advance: can you please fix your email client's wrapping? It's
really hard to read your emails.
I guess having 79 characters per line doesn't work too well, changed
it to 72 Hm, that
whole story is a bit frustrating to be honest.
I haven't seen the mockups yet you mentioned earlier in this
thread. So
I had to start somewhere out of the blue which is quite pointless
when there are things around being already half finished.
But now you're coming around the corner with a 90% copy of the
current landing page. All in all you gave it different fonts and
made the colours more eye burning but kept the unclear overall
structure.
Attribute the eye burning colours to the awful colour palette
openSUSE
has, which instead of enabling more interesting designs causes
everything to way too bright
The worst part is that this is how the colours were supposed to be
used, despite not being fit for the purpose (at least that's how
they
appear to be used in marketing materials).
And despite the fact that it is a 90% of the current landing page,
it
fixes all the issues that the current page has in my opinion:
* Links more to external resources instead of relying on the landing
page itself (software-o-o already explains the differences between
distributions, why duplicate, news-o-o already has all the news, why
duplicate, contributions page will have all the details about
contributing, why duplicate)
Sending people from A to B to C with always different layouts. That is
so wrong. I'd prefer any duplication instead of this navigation mess. * Gives more
space to projects other than distributions
* References to openSUSE as us, not them
* Mentions community more
If we want to fix the way openSUSE Distributions are presented to
people, we should need to do it in one place, not two or three
(there
is also some stuff on the wiki after all).
Please re-read your first bullet point. You're dissenting with
yourself
here now. Wait until when? Settling the foundation alone will
take up to 6
months. But even leaving it out there's still not a single date or
time
span for logo and renaming around at all. Which means it will take
2-3 months at minimum until there is any final decision in sight.
That aside: changing color codes and switching logos is no rocket
science.
It isn't, but I would hope all of this would be tied together. It's
just a few years at most, we can wait :P
21 Jun
21 Jun
1:03 a.m.
Am Thu, 20 Jun 2019 21:06:05 +0200
schrieb Stasiek Michalski <hellcp(a)opensuse.org>rg>:
Then reduce the use of green to just logos, menus and accents. Get rid
of the huge blank spaces with no special purpose.
Then if there are plans already, what keeps it from being fulfilled?
And to link everything externally because there are some things that
have be linked externally is a really, really strange UX approach.
So, to recap:
you want one place with basic information and instead of making
opensuse.org this place you want to move everything to software-o-o?
That sounds like where I'm trying to get to. But not by literally
patching a broken design from 2015.
Regards,
vinz.
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So why not
unclutter it and use one or two main colors? It's not
like we have you use every tone given from the palette as if it was
the holy grail.
Eh, this particular green gets worse the darker it gets, it's
certainly less eye burning, but that's not helping it look any better. Sending people
from A to B to C with always different layouts. That
is so wrong. I'd prefer any duplication instead of this navigation
mess.
All of those places do, or already have plans to move to new
navigation bar/footer with chameleon migration (except OSEM), It's
the same navigation for this very reason. We certainly can't avoid
not linking elsewhere, so why not link everything externally,
especially since that's where the content already is. Please re-read
your first bullet point. You're dissenting with
yourself
here now.
Nope, I'm repeating myself, I want one place with all the basic
information you need on distributions, without the need to edit many
of them to fit the current state. So moving everything to software-o-o
seems like the most sensible way to do it. We agreed on
the overall web presence being at best not satisfying.
So why wait until the tasks are stacked?
We can already fix a bulk of it by forming a plan for fixing
software-o-o's presentation of distributions, cleaning up wiki from
useless stuff that is already said in other places, fixing OSEM to use
the same navigation as existing openSUSE websites, stuff that might
not be related to the main site at this moment, but would make
navigating between websites easier and more informational.
20 Jun
20 Jun
9:49 p.m.
Vinzenz Vietzke composed on 2019-06-20 14:05 (UTC+0200):
But now you're coming around the corner with a 90%
copy of the current
landing page. All in all you gave it different fonts and made the
colours more eye burning but kept the unclear overall structure.
Eye burning? Where? What?
--
Evolution as taught in public schools is religion, not science.
Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!
Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/
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11:47 p.m.
Am Thu, 20 Jun 2019 15:49:39 -0400
schrieb Felix Miata <mrmazda(a)earthlink.net>et>:
Eye burning? Where? What?
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/496049131928682506/59114854945089129…
Regards,
vinz.
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21 Jun
21 Jun
4:06 a.m.
Vinzenz Vietzke composed on 2019-06-20 23:47 (UTC+0200):
Am Thu, 20 Jun 2019 15:49:39 -0400 Felix Miata
composed:
> Eye burning? Where? What?
If you mean garish, ugly shade of yellowish-green background I agree. I just get
lost trying to understand the use of "eye burning" to describe it.
--
Evolution as taught in public schools is religion, not science.
Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!
Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/
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494
days inactive
581
days old
48 comments
11 participants
participants (11)
-
Carlos E. R. -
ddemaio -
Felix Miata -
Henne Vogelsang -
Imad Aldoj -
jdd＠dodin.org -
Jim Henderson -
Patrick Shanahan -
Pierre Böckmann -
Stasiek Michalski -
Vinzenz Vietzke