[opensuse-project] Forum registration has many data that a user doesn't want to give

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Efstathios Iosifidis (aka diamond_gr)

21 Jun 2013 21 Jun '13

16:47

Hello, I got few complaints about forum registration form. The form has fields for address, phone number etc. Most of my friends used fake information. But I still got the complain that there are many personal information that the new user doesn't want to provide. Do you think that we can do something about it? #osc13, Stathis -- http://about.me/iosifidis http://eiosifidis.blogspot.gr http://blogs.gnome.org/eiosifidis Great leaders don't tell you what to do... They show you how it's done. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

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Marcus Meissner

21 Jun 21 Jun

18:06

New subject: [opensuse-project] Forum registration has many data that a user doesn't want to give

On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 07:47:21PM +0300, Efstathios Iosifidis (aka diamond_gr) wrote:

...

Hello,

I got few complaints about forum registration form. The form has fields for address, phone number etc. Most of my friends used fake information. But I still got the complain that there are many personal information that the new user doesn't want to provide. Do you think that we can do something about it?

There is a different sign up form that you reach from e.g. the wiki (en.opensuse.org) (the one with the green theme) that needs way less information. This green form is also able to create a Novell account with less mandatory information. CIao, Marcus -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Rajko

23 Jun 23 Jun

15:49

On Fri, 21 Jun 2013 20:06:58 +0200 Marcus Meissner wrote:

...

On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 07:47:21PM +0300, Efstathios Iosifidis (aka diamond_gr) wrote:

...
Hello,

I got few complaints about forum registration form. The form has fields for address, phone number etc. ... There is a different sign up form that you reach from e.g. the wiki (en.opensuse.org) (the one with the green theme) that needs way less information.

It is removed. Now it leads to huge form that only the most interested and motivated will even try to fill out.

...

This green form is also able to create a Novell account with less mandatory information.

This is still old screen: https://features.opensuse.org/ICSLogin/?%22https://features.opensuse.org/%22 That leads to simple form: https://secure-www.novell.com/selfreg/jsp/createOpenSuseAccount.jsp?login=Si... Build service "Sign Up" link has direct access to that form: https://secure-www.novell.com/selfreg/jsp/createOpenSuseAccount.jsp?%22https... I didn't go farther as I did last time we had this discussion, but hiding simple form in misc places creates not so good picture about openSUSE. The openSUSE Team at SUSE may find that fixing this in accordance with current web trends (minimum questions for initial sign up, and more questions later, when a need arise) is one of essential ways to improve participation. -- Regards, Rajko. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Malcolm

16:23

New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Forum registration has many data that a user doesn't want to give

On Sun 23 Jun 2013 10:49:47 AM CDT, Rajko wrote:

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The openSUSE Team at SUSE may find that fixing this in accordance with current web trends (minimum questions for initial sign up, and more questions later, when a need arise) is one of essential ways to improve participation.

Hi Minimum questions for sign up leads to more spammers........ no thanks! ;) -- Cheers Malcolm °¿° (Linux Counter #276890) openSUSE 12.3 (x86_64) Kernel 3.7.10-1.16-desktop up 12:13, 3 users, load average: 0.14, 0.30, 0.21 CPU AMD Athlon(tm) II P360@2.30GHz | GPU Mobility Radeon HD 4200 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

17:25

New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Forum registration has many data that a user doesn't want to give

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2013-06-23 18:23, Malcolm wrote:

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On Sun 23 Jun 2013 10:49:47 AM CDT, Rajko wrote:

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The openSUSE Team at SUSE may find that fixing this in accordance with current web trends (minimum questions for initial sign up, and more questions later, when a need arise) is one of essential ways to improve participation.

Hi Minimum questions for sign up leads to more spammers........ no thanks! ;)

And too many questions lead people away, or to give false answers. Choose. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 12.3 x86_64 "Dartmouth" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.19 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iEYEARECAAYFAlHHL5MACgkQtTMYHG2NR9WRLQCfZU85dZuhph33kMTWVHpte2Z/ WfUAnAgslRJlwSd3/KLDGjs5DmpPSgt5 =q0s4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Rajko

24 Jun 24 Jun

23:43

New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Forum registration has many data that a user doesn't want to give

On Sun, 23 Jun 2013 11:23:42 -0500 Malcolm wrote:

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Hi Minimum questions for sign up leads to more spammers........ no thanks! ;)

Malcolm, it is not my idea, it is a web trend and not very new. If you want users you don't slam them with official registration form used for Novell customers that among other things is asking for company they work for, and will not let you trough without it. Spammers are part of the game they are relatively small part of the population which is well controlled only if you have a lot of normal users as many eyes will spot a problem earlier when it is easier to fix it. I have quite good experience with on the wiki where wiki users were reporting spam. I didn't find it first. Also, complicated sign up form did not prevent spam on the wiki. Most likely spammers are more motivated to create login and post ads then normal users that want to fix problem or two in wiki pages. -- Regards, Rajko. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Jim Henderson

25 Jun 25 Jun

00:39

New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Forum registration has many data that a user doesn't want to give

On Mon, 24 Jun 2013 18:43:50 -0500, Rajko wrote:

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Also, complicated sign up form did not prevent spam on the wiki.

Are you really saying that in order to be an effective anti-spam deterrent, it has to prevent 100% of spam posted on the wiki? If you are, I'd have to say that's kinda a silly approach to take. We see a fair amount of web-based forum spam on the forums, even with the long registration process, but it's very likely less than we would see with the "easy" form. Of course there's no easy way to tell for certain. FWIW, I'm in favor of the shorter form myself, and am not sure why that didn't get changed the last time this topic came around on the mailing lists. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Rajko

02:38

New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Forum registration has many data that a user doesn't want to give

On Tue, 25 Jun 2013 00:39:59 +0000 (UTC) Jim Henderson wrote:

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On Mon, 24 Jun 2013 18:43:50 -0500, Rajko wrote:

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Also, complicated sign up form did not prevent spam on the wiki.

Are you really saying that in order to be an effective anti-spam deterrent, it has to prevent 100% of spam posted on the wiki?

Absolutely not. Whether we like it or not spam is part of online business and even complicated form did not prevent it. In other words it is useless as a deterrent. It is a matter or motivation, and my view is that we lose more regular users and small contributors that come to help, or for help, and have weaker motivation then spammers to fill unwieldy long form. Spammer get paid, or at least think that he can make money from spam, while small contributor is not pressed to put up with long form.

...

If you are, I'd have to say that's kinda a silly approach to take.

:) I feel silly to ask for fix, as it is not fixed for a very long time. It seems that no one finds such stuff pressing. Replacing few links seems to be very complicated process.

...

We see a fair amount of web-based forum spam on the forums, even with the long registration process, but it's very likely less than we would see with the "easy" form. Of course there's no easy way to tell for certain.

Well, with more users it would be easier and faster to remove it and keep forums clean. Spammers don't like sites that promptly remove web spam; it is not worth effort to post anything if it will live so short that search engines will not pick it up. BTW, our rank on Alexa is lower then ever. Global rank is now 11,300 while it was for years around 8000 (smaller is better). http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/opensuse.org# I'd say that login is one of contributing factors.

...

FWIW, I'm in favor of the shorter form myself, and am not sure why that didn't get changed the last time this topic came around on the mailing lists.

For one, short form is old ICSLogin which should have been retired some time ago, but obviously it is not.

...

Jim

-- Regards, Rajko. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Jim Henderson

04:06

New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Forum registration has many data that a user doesn't want to give

On Mon, 24 Jun 2013 21:38:22 -0500, Rajko wrote:

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On Tue, 25 Jun 2013 00:39:59 +0000 (UTC) Jim Henderson wrote:

...
On Mon, 24 Jun 2013 18:43:50 -0500, Rajko wrote:

...
Also, complicated sign up form did not prevent spam on the wiki.

Are you really saying that in order to be an effective anti-spam deterrent, it has to prevent 100% of spam posted on the wiki?

Absolutely not. Whether we like it or not spam is part of online business and even complicated form did not prevent it. In other words it is useless as a deterrent.

You have no data that I am aware of (as I'm not sure how you'd gather it) to demonstrate that the level of spam isn't lower than it would be with a simpler process. Of course, if you do, feel free to share it. I'd be interested in how you gathered it.

...

It is a matter or motivation, and my view is that we lose more regular users and small contributors that come to help, or for help, and have weaker motivation then spammers to fill unwieldy long form. Spammer get paid, or at least think that he can make money from spam, while small contributor is not pressed to put up with long form.

Spammers don't tend to survive very long, and taking time to fill out a form when their spam is being deleted pretty rapidly is a waste of time. I'm happy to waste their time, if it means less spam overall.

...

I feel silly to ask for fix, as it is not fixed for a very long time. It seems that no one finds such stuff pressing. Replacing few links seems to be very complicated process.

I don't think it's really that big of a deal. I'm for the shorter form, as I said, *but* its easy to fill out a long form with fake information, too.

...

...
We see a fair amount of web-based forum spam on the forums, even with the long registration process, but it's very likely less than we would see with the "easy" form. Of course there's no easy way to tell for certain.

Well, with more users it would be easier and faster to remove it and keep forums clean. Spammers don't like sites that promptly remove web spam; it is not worth effort to post anything if it will live so short that search engines will not pick it up.

It's even worth less if registration takes too long.

...

BTW, our rank on Alexa is lower then ever. Global rank is now 11,300 while it was for years around 8000 (smaller is better).

I'm not sure why I should care about Alexa rankings any more than I should care about our distrowatch ranking.

...

...
FWIW, I'm in favor of the shorter form myself, and am not sure why that didn't get changed the last time this topic came around on the mailing lists.

For one, short form is old ICSLogin which should have been retired some time ago, but obviously it is not.

It was, iChain (which used ICSLogin) is a retired product, and was replaced by Access Manager. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Christian Boltz

10:36

New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Forum registration has many data that a user doesn't want to give

Hello, Am Dienstag, 25. Juni 2013 schrieb Jim Henderson:

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On Mon, 24 Jun 2013 21:38:22 -0500, Rajko wrote:

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On Tue, 25 Jun 2013 00:39:59 +0000 (UTC)

Jim Henderson wrote:

...
On Mon, 24 Jun 2013 18:43:50 -0500, Rajko wrote:

...

...
Whether we like it or not spam is part of online business and even complicated form did not prevent it. In other words it is useless as a deterrent.

You have no data that I am aware of (as I'm not sure how you'd gather it) to demonstrate that the level of spam isn't lower than it would be with a simpler process.

Of course, if you do, feel free to share it. I'd be interested in how you gathered it.

I have some experience from a wiki I'm running, which has a rather long signup form. Most spammers (to be exact: their bots) fill _every_ field. If a fieldname is unknown to them, they usually fill the field with stuff that would be a good password ;-) This also means that one of my spam defenses is having a field that is hidden by CSS - if it is filled, it's a sure sign for a spammer... Spammers who register manually are very rare - but those are impossible to detect in advance.

...

...
I feel silly to ask for fix, as it is not fixed for a very long time. It seems that no one finds such stuff pressing.

I'd say the problem is that nobody has time to change it :-(

...

...
Replacing few links seems to be very complicated process.

;-)

...

I don't think it's really that big of a deal. I'm for the shorter form, as I said, *but* its easy to fill out a long form with fake information, too.

Indeed. It would be interesting to know how many people are working for the "." company ;-) (which is accepted as valid input AFAIK)

...

...
Well, with more users it would be easier and faster to remove it and keep forums clean. Spammers don't like sites that promptly remove web spam; it is not worth effort to post anything if it will live so short that search engines will not pick it up.

It's even worth less if registration takes too long.

See above - the spammers' bots don't care about the number of fields ;-)

...

...
BTW, our rank on Alexa is lower then ever. Global rank is now 11,300 while it was for years around 8000 (smaller is better).

Don't trust any statistics that you didn't fake yourself ;-) Regards, Christian Boltz --

...

No, much like a dickhead really. From you, that can only be taken as a compliment. Thanks ;) [> Basil Chupin and Graham Anderson in opensuse-factory]

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Jim Henderson

15:17

New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Forum registration has many data that a user doesn't want to give

On Tue, 25 Jun 2013 12:36:10 +0200, Christian Boltz wrote:

...

...
Of course, if you do, feel free to share it. I'd be interested in how you gathered it.

I have some experience from a wiki I'm running, which has a rather long signup form.

Most spammers (to be exact: their bots) fill _every_ field. If a fieldname is unknown to them, they usually fill the field with stuff that would be a good password ;-)

This also means that one of my spam defenses is having a field that is hidden by CSS - if it is filled, it's a sure sign for a spammer...

Spammers who register manually are very rare - but those are impossible to detect in advance.

Interesting. Of course, some field validation would also prevent the bots from working, too, but it's got to be field validation that a human would pass. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Rajko

26 Jun 26 Jun

02:15

New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Forum registration has many data that a user doesn't want to give

On Tue, 25 Jun 2013 15:17:08 +0000 (UTC) Jim Henderson wrote:

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Interesting. Of course, some field validation would also prevent the bots from working, too, but it's got to be field validation that a human would pass.

Christian mentioned one that is as simple as it can be, field hidden by css, which most of the login bots will not notice and fill it anyway, unlike humans :) -- Regards, Rajko. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Per Jessen

09:44

New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Forum registration has many data that a user doesn't want to give

Christian Boltz wrote:

...

Hello,

Am Dienstag, 25. Juni 2013 schrieb Jim Henderson:

...
On Mon, 24 Jun 2013 21:38:22 -0500, Rajko wrote:

...
On Tue, 25 Jun 2013 00:39:59 +0000 (UTC)

Jim Henderson wrote:

...
On Mon, 24 Jun 2013 18:43:50 -0500, Rajko wrote:

...
...
Whether we like it or not spam is part of online business and even complicated form did not prevent it. In other words it is useless as a deterrent.

You have no data that I am aware of (as I'm not sure how you'd gather it) to demonstrate that the level of spam isn't lower than it would be with a simpler process.

Of course, if you do, feel free to share it. I'd be interested in how you gathered it.

I have some experience from a wiki I'm running, which has a rather long signup form.

Most spammers (to be exact: their bots) fill _every_ field. If a fieldname is unknown to them, they usually fill the field with stuff that would be a good password ;-)

This also means that one of my spam defenses is having a field that is hidden by CSS - if it is filled, it's a sure sign for a spammer...

Nice one, good idea, but why not use a CAPTCHA? I know they are occasionally also circumvented, but it requires a real person, which is a lot more effort. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (15.4°C) http://www.dns24.ch/ - free DNS hosting, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Christian Boltz

22:52

New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Forum registration has many data that a user doesn't want to give

Hello, Am Mittwoch, 26. Juni 2013 schrieb Per Jessen:

...

Christian Boltz wrote:

...
This also means that one of my spam defenses is having a field that is hidden by CSS - if it is filled, it's a sure sign for a spammer... Nice one, good idea, but why not use a CAPTCHA?

Because they annoy real users.

...

I know they are occasionally also circumvented, but it requires a real person, which is a lot more effort.

...

General Version Freeze is with Beta1, I can't help it, but when will the Version Freeze of the

I wouldn't be surprised if spammers use OCR, at least for the captchas that are not terribly readable (which is again also a question of annoying real users - I've seen captchas that are nearly impossible to read by humans) Besides that, blocking spam(mers) is possible even without using captchas. That's not a theory - it's real. I'm running some sites with a guestbook page, and the "write into guestbook" form is of course the main attraction for spammers. On one site, I get some thousand spam attemps per month. If things go really bad, I have to manually delete one (!) entry per month ;-) Let me finish the mail with some details: - the guestbook spamfilter is implemented in 15 lines of PHP (yes, blocking webform spam is much easier than blocking spam mails) - one of my filter conditions is a check if two fields contain the same (non-empty) content - spammers typically enter links in textareas, so checking for "

Per Jessen

27 Jun 27 Jun

05:57

New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Forum registration has many data that a user doesn't want to give

Christian Boltz wrote:

...

Hello,

Am Mittwoch, 26. Juni 2013 schrieb Per Jessen:

...
Christian Boltz wrote:

...
This also means that one of my spam defenses is having a field that is hidden by CSS - if it is filled, it's a sure sign for a spammer... Nice one, good idea, but why not use a CAPTCHA?

Because they annoy real users.

Hmm, I guess they might. I'm not so sure - even casual polls on news sites are using CAPTCHAs.

...

...
I know they are occasionally also circumvented, but it requires a real person, which is a lot more effort.

I wouldn't be surprised if spammers use OCR, at least for the captchas that are not terribly readable

I'm certain they do, that's why the graphical CAPTCHAs are always twisted etc. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (12.3°C) http://www.dns24.ch/ - free DNS hosting, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

19:24

New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Forum registration has many data that a user doesn't want to give

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday, 2013-06-27 at 07:57 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:

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Christian Boltz wrote:

...

...
...
Nice one, good idea, but why not use a CAPTCHA?

Because they annoy real users.

Hmm, I guess they might. I'm not so sure - even casual polls on news sites are using CAPTCHAs.

They annoy me. On some sites I have to try 3 or four times to get past them :-( There are some dumb sites that ask for a capcha after login/pass. And I know of one that asks for a human question (not capcha) before asking for login/pass, to deter dictionary attacks. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 12.3 x86_64 "Dartmouth" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.19 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlHMkVwACgkQtTMYHG2NR9VXXgCeLTqT/dc+6qFyQ1v74yuZz04x eKQAniYZjpTetIcVddbVZ2FPS4TDlpku =UH0h -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Per Jessen

28 Jun 28 Jun

07:27

New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Forum registration has many data that a user doesn't want to give

Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

On Thursday, 2013-06-27 at 07:57 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:

...
Christian Boltz wrote:

...
...
...
Nice one, good idea, but why not use a CAPTCHA?

Because they annoy real users.

Hmm, I guess they might. I'm not so sure - even casual polls on news sites are using CAPTCHAs.

They annoy me. On some sites I have to try 3 or four times to get past them :-(

There are some dumb sites that ask for a capcha after login/pass. And I know of one that asks for a human question (not capcha) before asking for login/pass, to deter dictionary attacks.

Just for the record - CAPTCHAs come in many different forms, it's not just the usual obscured graphic. "Wie viel ist dreiundzwanzig plus vierzehn?" is also a CAPTCHA. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (13.2°C) http://www.dns24.ch/ - free DNS hosting, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Rajko

26 Jun 26 Jun

02:12

New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Forum registration has many data that a user doesn't want to give

On Tue, 25 Jun 2013 04:06:19 +0000 (UTC) Jim Henderson wrote:

...

On Mon, 24 Jun 2013 21:38:22 -0500, Rajko wrote: ...

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Absolutely not. Whether we like it or not spam is part of online business and even complicated form did not prevent it. In other words it is useless as a deterrent.

You have no data that I am aware of (as I'm not sure how you'd gather it) to demonstrate that the level of spam isn't lower than it would be with a simpler process.

It is expectation that with lower barrier to contribution, we will have more members and that will lower chance of spam being undetected for longer period of time which will lower spammer's incentive to post spam.

...

Of course, if you do, feel free to share it. I'd be interested in how you gathered it.

You don't need data, just a bit knowledge about spammers and their tools. The rest is just a logical conclusion. Spammers use bots, as confirmed by Christian, that handle long and short forms with the same level of satisfaction (they don't care), which we can't tell for humans, considering repeated complaints. In other words we repel only real people by using long form. -- Regards, Rajko. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Jim Henderson

03:32

New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Forum registration has many data that a user doesn't want to give

On Tue, 25 Jun 2013 21:12:15 -0500, Rajko wrote:

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On Tue, 25 Jun 2013 04:06:19 +0000 (UTC) Jim Henderson wrote:

...
On Mon, 24 Jun 2013 21:38:22 -0500, Rajko wrote: ...

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Absolutely not. Whether we like it or not spam is part of online business and even complicated form did not prevent it. In other words it is useless as a deterrent.

You have no data that I am aware of (as I'm not sure how you'd gather it) to demonstrate that the level of spam isn't lower than it would be with a simpler process.

It is expectation that with lower barrier to contribution, we will have more members and that will lower chance of spam being undetected for longer period of time which will lower spammer's incentive to post spam.

Have you ever been contacted by someone who said "gee, I'd love to contribute to the openSUSE project, but your sign-up form is just too long; it'd take me 2 minutes to fill it out, but I can only spare 10 seconds to fill out the form." I kinda doubt it. If someone wants to contribute to the project and sign up for an account, taking the 2 minutes to register is small compared to the amount of time they'll put into the project if they want to be a significant contributor. It's not like they have to fill the darned form out every time they make a contribution to the project. They fill it out exactly *once*. Then maybe another 5-10 minutes turnaround (not of actual *work*) to validate their e-mail address.

...

...
Of course, if you do, feel free to share it. I'd be interested in how you gathered it.

You don't need data, just a bit knowledge about spammers and their tools. The rest is just a logical conclusion.

The rest is a guess - maybe an educated guess, but still a guess.

...

Spammers use bots, as confirmed by Christian, that handle long and short forms with the same level of satisfaction (they don't care), which we can't tell for humans, considering repeated complaints. In other words we repel only real people by using long form.

Well, I guess it was time for the annual debate about this anyways. ;) Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Felix Miata

04:17

On 2013-06-26 03:32 (GMT) Jim Henderson composed:

...

If someone wants to contribute to the project and sign up for an account, taking the 2 minutes to register is small compared to the amount of time they'll put into the project if they want to be a significant contributor.

IMO it's not the time, but the very _idea_ of divulging of information that bears no apparent justification or relevance as a pre-condition to acceptance of gratis contribution to a FOSS project, and is information not required by similar or even any other FOSS projects. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Marcus Meissner

08:29

New subject: [opensuse-project] Forum registration has many data that a user doesn't want to give

Hi, https://secure-www.novell.com/selfreg/jsp/createOpenSuseAccount.jsp Ciao, Marcus On Wed, Jun 26, 2013 at 12:17:37AM -0400, Felix Miata wrote:

...

On 2013-06-26 03:32 (GMT) Jim Henderson composed:

...
If someone wants to contribute to the project and sign up for an account, taking the 2 minutes to register is small compared to the amount of time they'll put into the project if they want to be a significant contributor.

IMO it's not the time, but the very _idea_ of divulging of information that bears no apparent justification or relevance as a pre-condition to acceptance of gratis contribution to a FOSS project, and is information not required by similar or even any other FOSS projects. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

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Per Jessen

09:42

Marcus Meissner wrote:

...

Hi,

https://secure-www.novell.com/selfreg/jsp/createOpenSuseAccount.jsp

Ciao, Marcus

Yes, that form is short and concise, but I guess that is not the one used for forum registration? -- Per Jessen, Zürich (15.4°C) http://www.dns24.ch/ - free DNS hosting, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

10:06

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Wednesday, 2013-06-26 at 11:42 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:

...

Marcus Meissner wrote:

...
Hi,

https://secure-www.novell.com/selfreg/jsp/createOpenSuseAccount.jsp

Ciao, Marcus

Yes, that form is short and concise, but I guess that is not the one used for forum registration?

But it is valid. Once you register, you get in, no matter how exactly you register. So we only need to point people to the place Marcus mentioned instead of the default one. Also, if the short form exists, the long one is moot. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 12.3 x86_64 "Dartmouth" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.19 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlHKvRsACgkQtTMYHG2NR9XWbgCeNz4Nqifbe8/jJIcqtfWQ9KP1 x1MAn0REGxz3oAL6YVLd0c4pPJiBeQKm =umoB -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Per Jessen

09:40

Felix Miata wrote:

...

On 2013-06-26 03:32 (GMT) Jim Henderson composed:

...
If someone wants to contribute to the project and sign up for an account, taking the 2 minutes to register is small compared to the amount of time they'll put into the project if they want to be a significant contributor.

IMO it's not the time, but the very _idea_ of divulging of information that bears no apparent justification or relevance as a pre-condition to acceptance of gratis contribution to a FOSS project, and is information not required by similar or even any other FOSS projects.

+1 It's a simple issue of privacy and perception. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (15.4°C) http://www.dns24.ch/ - free DNS hosting, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Jim Henderson

16:35

New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Forum registration has many data that a user doesn't want to give

On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 00:17:37 -0400, Felix Miata wrote:

...

IMO it's not the time, but the very _idea_ of divulging of information that bears no apparent justification or relevance as a pre-condition to acceptance of gratis contribution to a FOSS project, and is information not required by similar or even any other FOSS projects.

And of course, this is like a credit application, everything put on the forum *must* be 100% accurate under penalty of perjury. I understand now. (Yes, sarcasm) As I've said, I'm in favor of using the short form by default, but the level of resistance to the longer form being used just strikes me as over- the-top. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Marcus Meissner

08:29

New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Forum registration has many data that a user doesn't want to give

Hi, https://secure-www.novell.com/selfreg/jsp/createOpenSuseAccount.jsp Ciao, Marcus On Wed, Jun 26, 2013 at 03:32:55AM +0000, Jim Henderson wrote:

...

On Tue, 25 Jun 2013 21:12:15 -0500, Rajko wrote:

...
On Tue, 25 Jun 2013 04:06:19 +0000 (UTC) Jim Henderson wrote:

...
On Mon, 24 Jun 2013 21:38:22 -0500, Rajko wrote: ...

...
Absolutely not. Whether we like it or not spam is part of online business and even complicated form did not prevent it. In other words it is useless as a deterrent.

You have no data that I am aware of (as I'm not sure how you'd gather it) to demonstrate that the level of spam isn't lower than it would be with a simpler process.

It is expectation that with lower barrier to contribution, we will have more members and that will lower chance of spam being undetected for longer period of time which will lower spammer's incentive to post spam.

Have you ever been contacted by someone who said "gee, I'd love to contribute to the openSUSE project, but your sign-up form is just too long; it'd take me 2 minutes to fill it out, but I can only spare 10 seconds to fill out the form."

I kinda doubt it. If someone wants to contribute to the project and sign up for an account, taking the 2 minutes to register is small compared to the amount of time they'll put into the project if they want to be a significant contributor.

It's not like they have to fill the darned form out every time they make a contribution to the project. They fill it out exactly *once*. Then maybe another 5-10 minutes turnaround (not of actual *work*) to validate their e-mail address.

...
...
Of course, if you do, feel free to share it. I'd be interested in how you gathered it.

You don't need data, just a bit knowledge about spammers and their tools. The rest is just a logical conclusion.

The rest is a guess - maybe an educated guess, but still a guess.

...
Spammers use bots, as confirmed by Christian, that handle long and short forms with the same level of satisfaction (they don't care), which we can't tell for humans, considering repeated complaints. In other words we repel only real people by using long form.

Well, I guess it was time for the annual debate about this anyways. ;)

Jim

-- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits

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Carlos E. R.

10:09

New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Forum registration has many data that a user doesn't want to give

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Wednesday, 2013-06-26 at 03:32 -0000, Jim Henderson wrote:

...

On Tue, 25 Jun 2013 21:12:15 -0500, Rajko wrote:

...

Have you ever been contacted by someone who said "gee, I'd love to contribute to the openSUSE project, but your sign-up form is just too long; it'd take me 2 minutes to fill it out, but I can only spare 10 seconds to fill out the form."

We have been contacted by people refusing to connect and ask questions because of that long form, yes. Would be contributors seldom are newcommers. The issue is not the time required, but the privacy. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 12.3 x86_64 "Dartmouth" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.19 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlHKveUACgkQtTMYHG2NR9WO8gCfez/vXMCL69U7R+khPO0vrrXi V3sAnjCBL6N2ssHBXpqFZFnOGpADluVP =3Pll -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Jim Henderson

16:34

New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Forum registration has many data that a user doesn't want to give

On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 12:09:33 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

We have been contacted by people refusing to connect and ask questions because of that long form, yes. Would be contributors seldom are newcommers.

The issue is not the time required, but the privacy.

It's not that difficult to use fake information. There's a fair amount of false information in that system, from what I understand. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

27 Jun 27 Jun

13:48

New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Forum registration has many data that a user doesn't want to give

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Wednesday, 2013-06-26 at 16:34 -0000, Jim Henderson wrote:

...

On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 12:09:33 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...
We have been contacted by people refusing to connect and ask questions because of that long form, yes. Would be contributors seldom are newcommers.

The issue is not the time required, but the privacy.

It's not that difficult to use fake information. There's a fair amount of false information in that system, from what I understand.

IMO, it is very bad that the information collected can be false in large proportions. That alone should be a reason to stop collecting it. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 12.3 x86_64 "Dartmouth" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.19 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlHMQqAACgkQtTMYHG2NR9VbDACfY01Oacz37jb/m26m7DkQjYtW I/8An15y9JScUbNZSOu55FTwi2KY3iQL =PnzU -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Jim Henderson

17:57

New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Forum registration has many data that a user doesn't want to give

On Thu, 27 Jun 2013 15:48:16 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

...
It's not that difficult to use fake information. There's a fair amount of false information in that system, from what I understand.

IMO, it is very bad that the information collected can be false in large proportions. That alone should be a reason to stop collecting it.

And when one doesn't get to make that decision, then one does the best with what one has available. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Stefan Seyfried

18:26

New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Forum registration has many data that a user doesn't want to give

Hi Jim, Am 26.06.2013 05:32, schrieb Jim Henderson:

...

Have you ever been contacted by someone who said "gee, I'd love to contribute to the openSUSE project, but your sign-up form is just too long; it'd take me 2 minutes to fill it out, but I can only spare 10 seconds to fill out the form."

No, because those people don't complain or contact anyone, they just go elsewhere. If I had to fill out the form today (I filled it almost 10 years ago and I did not need to give all that information back then, probably because I came from the internal network), I'd just turn away and look for another distribution that wants my contribution. I'm not giving all my private data to everyone on the internet. Period. And "you can just enter fake data" => then why are they asking for it anyway? I don't buy from spammers. I don't service unreasonable requests for personal data. If someone wants me to help with his project, he should not force me to do things I don't want to do (give away too much personal data)

...

I kinda doubt it. If someone wants to contribute to the project and sign up for an account, taking the 2 minutes to register is small compared to the amount of time they'll put into the project if they want to be a significant contributor.

Yes. But at least in my case, I'd consider this form as "that project does not want my help." It's not about the time filling out the form. It's about the unreasonable request. And yes, I know, there are people using facebook etc. and not caring about their privacy in any way. I'm not one of them. And it does not help the project to ridicule those requests for a reasonable signup form IMVHO. It just makes me think "how have i come here? Do I really want to be here?" (A feeling I already get on a regular base because of the technical decisions anyway...) -- Stefan Seyfried "If your lighter runs out of fluid or flint and stops making fire, and you can't be bothered to figure out about lighter fluid or flint, that is not Zippo's fault." -- bkw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Jim Henderson

21:33

New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Forum registration has many data that a user doesn't want to give

On Thu, 27 Jun 2013 20:26:24 +0200, Stefan Seyfried wrote:

...

And it does not help the project to ridicule those requests for a reasonable signup form IMVHO.

Nobody's ridiculing that request. I've said I'm in favor of the shorter form, multiple times. But my reasons are nothing more than it only makes sense to collect necessary data - and while that data is necessary for corporate customers of SUSE/Novell/NetIQ, it's not for openSUSE. So again, I'm in *agreement* that the simpler form *should* be used. But the amount of energy put into this discussion year after year after year seems really unnecessary to me. *Yes* we should use the shorter form. That it hasn't happened, though, isn't a death knell to the project. It's an inconvenience at worst AFAICS. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Marcus Meissner

26 Jun 26 Jun

08:29

New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Forum registration has many data that a user doesn't want to give

Hi, Did you read my email that there are _TWO_ sign up forms? There is: https://www.suse.com/selfreg/jsp/createAccount.jsp which is long with lots of fields to fill in and there is (reachable from e.g. build.opensuse.org): https://secure-www.novell.com/selfreg/jsp/createOpenSuseAccount.jsp Which only needs your name and country as mandatory fields. Just point cautious users to the second one. Ciao, Marcus On Tue, Jun 25, 2013 at 09:12:15PM -0500, Rajko wrote:

...

On Tue, 25 Jun 2013 04:06:19 +0000 (UTC) Jim Henderson wrote:

...
On Mon, 24 Jun 2013 21:38:22 -0500, Rajko wrote: ...

...
Absolutely not. Whether we like it or not spam is part of online business and even complicated form did not prevent it. In other words it is useless as a deterrent.

You have no data that I am aware of (as I'm not sure how you'd gather it) to demonstrate that the level of spam isn't lower than it would be with a simpler process.

It is expectation that with lower barrier to contribution, we will have more members and that will lower chance of spam being undetected for longer period of time which will lower spammer's incentive to post spam.

...
Of course, if you do, feel free to share it. I'd be interested in how you gathered it.

You don't need data, just a bit knowledge about spammers and their tools. The rest is just a logical conclusion.

Spammers use bots, as confirmed by Christian, that handle long and short forms with the same level of satisfaction (they don't care), which we can't tell for humans, considering repeated complaints. In other words we repel only real people by using long form.

-- Regards, Rajko. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

DenverD

10:13

New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Forum registration has many data that a user doesn't want to give

On 06/26/2013 10:29 AM, Marcus Meissner wrote:

...

Did you read my email that there are _TWO_ sign up forms?

There is: https://www.suse.com/selfreg/jsp/createAccount.jsp which is long with lots of fields to fill in

and there is (reachable from e.g. build.opensuse.org): https://secure-www.novell.com/selfreg/jsp/createOpenSuseAccount.jsp

Which only needs your name and country as mandatory fields.

Just point cautious users to the second one.

might it be an idea for the opensuse.org webmaster to cause _every_ account creation request originating from _any_ opensuse.org page to present the short form, only.. on the other hand, if suse.de, novell or netiq.com wishes to have all requests originating from their pages to use only the long form, then their webmasters could require that. think about it: 99.9n% of all new potential openSUSE users/contributors will never need accounts at any of Novell, NetIQ, SUSE.de or Attachmate. and, if an openSUSE user/contributor decides they do need account holder access to those non-openSUSE sites, then the additional personal info they need can be collected simply by presenting the long form pre-populated with the short form's data whenever they might try to access account holder only areas/data/repos/etc.. dd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Rajko

27 Jun 27 Jun

02:17

New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Forum registration has many data that a user doesn't want to give

On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 10:29:36 +0200 Marcus Meissner wrote:

...

Did you read my email that there are _TWO_ sign up forms?

I did Marcus, and you can see from my post that I listed that link. Problem is that only Build Service has that link.

...

Just point cautious users to the second one.

We will not see large majority of them. They will silently find someone that doesn't ask that much. Web is huge and there is a plenty of offers for each imaginable thing. -- Regards, Rajko. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

26 Jun 26 Jun

02:32

New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Forum registration has many data that a user doesn't want to give

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Monday, 2013-06-24 at 21:38 -0500, Rajko wrote:

...

It is a matter or motivation, and my view is that we lose more regular users and small contributors that come to help, or for help, and have weaker motivation then spammers to fill unwieldy long form. Spammer get paid, or at least think that he can make money from spam, while small contributor is not pressed to put up with long form.

IMHO, I don't see the motivation for a long form if people are going to fake their answers. Even less if bots can fill long forms just fine. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 12.3 x86_64 "Dartmouth" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.19 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlHKUroACgkQtTMYHG2NR9XbrwCdHLTG5OrAxV8XB7yqmLiYzU42 5JQAnAgM7Dp8YEHevM8V8/oyDEFdlrkm =t9ub -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

DenverD

21 Jun 21 Jun

19:29

On 06/21/2013 06:47 PM, Efstathios Iosifidis (aka diamond_gr) wrote:

...

I got few complaints about forum registration form. The form has fields for address, phone number etc. Most of my friends used fake information. But I still got the complain that there are many personal information that the new user doesn't want to provide. Do you think that we can do something about it?

using a usenet news client one can both read and write via the NNTP interface without giving _any_ information, info on how here: https://forums.opensuse.org/faq.php?faq=novfor#faq_nntp however, the nntp server has not worked since a planned maintenance on 19 June, and no one has said how long it might be out of service.. dd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Malcolm

23:03

New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Forum registration has many data that a user doesn't want to give

On Fri 21 Jun 2013 09:29:54 PM CDT, DenverD wrote:

...

however, the nntp server has not worked since a planned maintenance on 19 June, and no one has said how long it might be out of service..

dd

It's back but still needs some tweaking by the looks.... -- Cheers Malcolm °¿° (Linux Counter #276890) openSUSE 12.3 (x86_64) Kernel 3.7.10-1.16-desktop up 23:49, 4 users, load average: 0.22, 0.14, 0.12 CPU AMD Athlon(tm) II P360@2.30GHz | GPU Mobility Radeon HD 4200 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Rajko

27 Jun 27 Jun

03:27

On Fri, 21 Jun 2013 19:47:21 +0300 "Efstathios Iosifidis (aka diamond_gr)" wrote:

...

Hello,

I got few complaints about forum registration form. The form has fields for address, phone number etc. ...

To make this thread shorter I opened a bug report: https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=826983 I'm not sure whom at SUSE, or Novell, to address, so I left default assignee. -- Regards, Rajko. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

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11 participants

participants (11)

Carlos E. R.
Christian Boltz
DenverD
Efstathios Iosifidis (aka diamond_gr)
Felix Miata
Jim Henderson
Malcolm
Marcus Meissner
Per Jessen
Rajko
Stefan Seyfried