21 Jun
2013
21 Jun
'13
12:47 p.m.
Hello,
I got few complaints about forum registration form. The form has fields
for address, phone number etc.
Most of my friends used fake information. But I still got the complain
that there are many personal information that the new user doesn't want
to provide.
Do you think that we can do something about it?
#osc13,
Stathis
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21 Jun
21 Jun
2:06 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Forum registration has many data that a user doesn't want to give
On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 07:47:21PM +0300, Efstathios Iosifidis (aka diamond_gr) wrote:
Hello,
I got few complaints about forum registration form. The form has fields for
address, phone number etc.
Most of my friends used fake information. But I still got the complain that
there are many personal information that the new user doesn't want to
provide.
Do you think that we can do something about it?
There is a different sign up form that you reach from e.g. the wiki (en.opensuse.org)
(the one with the green theme) that needs way less information.
This green form is also able to create a Novell account with less mandatory information.
CIao, Marcus
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23 Jun
23 Jun
11:49 a.m.
On Fri, 21 Jun 2013 20:06:58 +0200
Marcus Meissner <meissner(a)suse.de> wrote:
On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 07:47:21PM +0300, Efstathios
Iosifidis (aka
diamond_gr) wrote:
It is removed. Now it leads to huge form that only the most interested
and motivated will even try to fill out.
Hello,
I got few complaints about forum registration form. The form has
fields for address, phone number etc.
...
There is a different sign up form that you reach from e.g. the wiki
(en.opensuse.org) (the one with the green theme) that needs way less
information. This green form is also able to create a Novell
account with less
mandatory information.
This is still old screen:
https://features.opensuse.org/ICSLogin/?%22https://features.opensuse.org/%22
That leads to simple form:
https://secure-www.novell.com/selfreg/jsp/createOpenSuseAccount.jsp?login=S…
Build service "Sign Up" link has direct access to that form:
https://secure-www.novell.com/selfreg/jsp/createOpenSuseAccount.jsp?%22http…
I didn't go farther as I did last time we had this discussion, but
hiding simple form in misc places creates not so good picture about
openSUSE.
The openSUSE Team at SUSE may find that fixing this in accordance with
current web trends (minimum questions for initial sign up, and more
questions later, when a need arise) is one of essential ways to improve
participation.
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12:23 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Forum registration has many data that a user doesn't want to give
On Sun 23 Jun 2013 10:49:47 AM CDT, Rajko wrote:
The openSUSE Team at SUSE may find that fixing this in accordance with
current web trends (minimum questions for initial sign up, and more
questions later, when a need arise) is one of essential ways to improve
participation.
Hi
Minimum questions for sign up leads to more spammers........ no
thanks! ;)
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1:25 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Forum registration has many data that a user doesn't want to give
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
On 2013-06-23 18:23, Malcolm wrote:
On Sun 23 Jun 2013 10:49:47 AM CDT, Rajko wrote:
And too many questions lead people away, or to give false answers.
Choose.
- --
Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R.
(from 12.3 x86_64 "Dartmouth" at Telcontar)
The openSUSE Team at SUSE may find that fixing this in accordance
with current web trends (minimum questions for initial sign up,
and more questions later, when a need arise) is one of essential
ways to improve participation.
Hi Minimum questions for sign up leads to more spammers........ no
thanks! ;) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v2.0.19 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/
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24 Jun
24 Jun
7:43 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Forum registration has many data that a user doesn't want to give
On Sun, 23 Jun 2013 11:23:42 -0500
Malcolm <malcolmlewis(a)cableone.net> wrote:
Hi
Minimum questions for sign up leads to more spammers........ no
thanks! ;)
Malcolm, it is not my idea, it is a web trend and not very new.
If you want users you don't slam them with official registration form
used for Novell customers that among other things is asking for
company they work for, and will not let you trough without it.
Spammers are part of the game they are relatively small part of the
population which is well controlled only if you have a lot of normal
users as many eyes will spot a problem earlier when it is easier to
fix it.
I have quite good experience with on the wiki where wiki users were
reporting spam. I didn't find it first.
Also, complicated sign up form did not prevent spam on the wiki. Most
likely spammers are more motivated to create login and post ads then
normal users that want to fix problem or two in wiki pages.
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8:39 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Forum registration has many data that a user doesn't want to give
On Mon, 24 Jun 2013 18:43:50 -0500, Rajko wrote:
Also, complicated sign up form did not prevent spam on
the wiki.
Are you really saying that in order to be an effective anti-spam
deterrent, it has to prevent 100% of spam posted on the wiki?
If you are, I'd have to say that's kinda a silly approach to take.
We see a fair amount of web-based forum spam on the forums, even with the
long registration process, but it's very likely less than we would see
with the "easy" form. Of course there's no easy way to tell for certain.
FWIW, I'm in favor of the shorter form myself, and am not sure why that
didn't get changed the last time this topic came around on the mailing
lists.
Jim
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10:38 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Forum registration has many data that a user doesn't want to give
On Tue, 25 Jun 2013 00:39:59 +0000 (UTC)
Jim Henderson <hendersj(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On Mon, 24 Jun 2013 18:43:50 -0500, Rajko wrote:
Absolutely not.
Whether we like it or not spam is part of online business and even
complicated form did not prevent it. In other words it is useless as
a deterrent.
It is a matter or motivation, and my view is that we lose more regular
users and small contributors that come to help, or for help, and have
weaker motivation then spammers to fill unwieldy long form. Spammer get
paid, or at least think that he can make money from spam, while small
contributor is not pressed to put up with long form.
Also, complicated sign up form did not prevent
spam on the wiki.
Are you really saying that in order to be an effective anti-spam
deterrent, it has to prevent 100% of spam posted on the wiki? If you are, I'd have to say that's kinda a
silly approach to take.
:)
I feel silly to ask for fix, as it is not fixed for a very long time.
It seems that no one finds such stuff pressing. Replacing few links
seems to be very complicated process.
We see a fair amount of web-based forum spam on the
forums, even with
the long registration process, but it's very likely less than we
would see with the "easy" form. Of course there's no easy way to
tell for certain.
Well, with more users it would be easier and faster to remove it and
keep forums clean. Spammers don't like sites that promptly remove web
spam; it is not worth effort to post anything if it will live so short
that search engines will not pick it up.
BTW, our rank on Alexa is lower then ever. Global rank is now 11,300
while it was for years around 8000 (smaller is better).
http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/opensuse.org#
I'd say that login is one of contributing factors.
FWIW, I'm in favor of the shorter form myself, and
am not sure why
that didn't get changed the last time this topic came around on the
mailing lists.
For one, short form is old ICSLogin which should have been retired some
time ago, but obviously it is not.
Jim
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25 Jun
25 Jun
12:06 a.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Forum registration has many data that a user doesn't want to give
On Mon, 24 Jun 2013 21:38:22 -0500, Rajko wrote:
It's even worth less if registration takes too long.
It was, iChain (which used ICSLogin) is a retired product, and was
replaced by Access Manager.
Jim
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On Tue, 25 Jun 2013 00:39:59 +0000 (UTC)
Jim Henderson <hendersj(a)gmail.com> wrote:
You have no data that I am aware of (as I'm not sure how you'd gather it)
to demonstrate that the level of spam isn't lower than it would be with a
simpler process.
Of course, if you do, feel free to share it. I'd be interested in how
you gathered it.
On Mon, 24 Jun 2013 18:43:50 -0500, Rajko wrote:
Absolutely not.
Whether we like it or not spam is part of online business and even
complicated form did not prevent it. In other words it is useless as a
deterrent. Also, complicated sign up form did not prevent
spam on the wiki.
Are you really saying that in order to be an effective anti-spam
deterrent, it has to prevent 100% of spam posted on the wiki? It is a matter or motivation, and my view is that we
lose more regular
users and small contributors that come to help, or for help, and have
weaker motivation then spammers to fill unwieldy long form. Spammer get
paid, or at least think that he can make money from spam, while small
contributor is not pressed to put up with long form.
Spammers don't tend to survive very long, and taking time to fill out a
form when their spam is being deleted pretty rapidly is a waste of time.
I'm happy to waste their time, if it means less spam overall.
I feel silly to ask for fix, as it is not fixed for a
very long time. It
seems that no one finds such stuff pressing. Replacing few links seems
to be very complicated process.
I don't think it's really that big of a deal. I'm for the shorter form,
as I said, *but* its easy to fill out a long form with fake information,
too.
We see a fair
amount of web-based forum spam on the forums, even with
the long registration process, but it's very likely less than we would
see with the "easy" form. Of course there's no easy way to tell for
certain.
Well, with more users it would be easier and faster to remove it and
keep forums clean. Spammers don't like sites that promptly remove web
spam; it is not worth effort to post anything if it will live so short
that search engines will not pick it up. BTW, our rank on Alexa is lower then ever. Global rank
is now 11,300
while it was for years around 8000 (smaller is better).
I'm not sure why I should care about Alexa rankings any more than I
should care about our distrowatch ranking.
FWIW, I'm
in favor of the shorter form myself, and am not sure why that
didn't get changed the last time this topic came around on the mailing
lists.
For one, short form is old ICSLogin which should have been retired some
time ago, but obviously it is not. 
6:36 a.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Forum registration has many data that a user doesn't want to give
Hello,
Am Dienstag, 25. Juni 2013 schrieb Jim Henderson:
I have some experience from a wiki I'm running, which has a rather long
signup form.
Most spammers (to be exact: their bots) fill _every_ field.
If a fieldname is unknown to them, they usually fill the field with
stuff that would be a good password ;-)
This also means that one of my spam defenses is having a field that is
hidden by CSS - if it is filled, it's a sure sign for a spammer...
Spammers who register manually are very rare - but those are impossible
to detect in advance.
See above - the spammers' bots don't care about the number of fields ;-)
On Mon, 24 Jun 2013 21:38:22 -0500, Rajko wrote:
> On Tue, 25 Jun 2013 00:39:59 +0000 (UTC)
>
> Jim Henderson <hendersj(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, 24 Jun 2013 18:43:50 -0500, Rajko wrote:
Whether we
like it or not spam is part of online business and even
complicated form did not prevent it. In other words it is useless as
a deterrent.
You have no data that I am aware of (as I'm not sure how you'd gather
it) to demonstrate that the level of spam isn't lower than it would
be with a simpler process.
Of course, if you do, feel free to share it. I'd be interested in how
you gathered it. > I feel silly to ask for fix, as it is not fixed
for a very long
> time. It seems that no one finds such stuff pressing.
I'd say the problem is that nobody has time to change it :-(
> Replacing few
> links seems to be very complicated process.
;-)
I don't think it's really that big of a deal.
I'm for the shorter
form, as I said, *but* its easy to fill out a long form with fake
information, too.
Indeed. It would be interesting to know how many people are working for
the "." company ;-) (which is accepted as valid input AFAIK)
Well, with
more users it would be easier and faster to remove it and
keep forums clean. Spammers don't like sites that promptly remove
web
spam; it is not worth effort to post anything if it will live so
short that search engines will not pick it up.
It's even worth less if registration takes too long. > BTW, our rank on Alexa is lower then ever. Global
rank is now 11,300
> while it was for years around 8000 (smaller is better).
Don't trust any statistics that you didn't fake yourself ;-)
Regards,
Christian Boltz
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No, much like a dickhead really.
From you, that can only be taken as a compliment. Thanks ;)
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Graham Anderson in opensuse-factory]
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11:17 a.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Forum registration has many data that a user doesn't want to give
On Tue, 25 Jun 2013 12:36:10 +0200, Christian Boltz wrote:
Interesting. Of course, some field validation would also prevent the
bots from working, too, but it's got to be field validation that a human
would pass.
Jim
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Of course, if
you do, feel free to share it. I'd be interested in how
you gathered it.
I have some experience from a wiki I'm running, which has a rather long
signup form.
Most spammers (to be exact: their bots) fill _every_ field.
If a fieldname is unknown to them, they usually fill the field with
stuff that would be a good password ;-)
This also means that one of my spam defenses is having a field that is
hidden by CSS - if it is filled, it's a sure sign for a spammer...
Spammers who register manually are very rare - but those are impossible
to detect in advance.
10:15 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Forum registration has many data that a user doesn't want to give
On Tue, 25 Jun 2013 15:17:08 +0000 (UTC)
Jim Henderson <hendersj(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Interesting. Of course, some field validation would
also prevent the
bots from working, too, but it's got to be field validation that a
human would pass.
Christian mentioned one that is as simple as it can be, field hidden by
css, which most of the login bots will not notice and fill it anyway,
unlike humans :)
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26 Jun
26 Jun
5:44 a.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Forum registration has many data that a user doesn't want to give
Christian Boltz wrote:
Hello,
Am Dienstag, 25. Juni 2013 schrieb Jim Henderson:
I have some experience from a wiki I'm running, which has a rather
long signup form.
Most spammers (to be exact: their bots) fill _every_ field.
If a fieldname is unknown to them, they usually fill the field with
stuff that would be a good password ;-)
This also means that one of my spam defenses is having a field that is
hidden by CSS - if it is filled, it's a sure sign for a spammer...
Nice one, good idea, but why not use a CAPTCHA? I know they are
occasionally also circumvented, but it requires a real person, which is
a lot more effort.
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On Mon, 24 Jun 2013 21:38:22 -0500, Rajko wrote:
> On Tue, 25 Jun 2013 00:39:59 +0000 (UTC)
>
> Jim Henderson <hendersj(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, 24 Jun 2013 18:43:50 -0500, Rajko wrote:
Whether
we like it or not spam is part of online business and even
complicated form did not prevent it. In other words it is useless
as a deterrent.
You have no data that I am aware of (as I'm not sure how you'd gather
it) to demonstrate that the level of spam isn't lower than it would
be with a simpler process.
Of course, if you do, feel free to share it. I'd be interested in
how you gathered it.
6:52 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Forum registration has many data that a user doesn't want to give
Hello,
Am Mittwoch, 26. Juni 2013 schrieb Per Jessen:
Christian Boltz wrote:
Because they annoy real users.
This also means that one of my spam defenses is
having a field that
is hidden by CSS - if it is filled, it's a sure sign for a
spammer...
Nice one, good idea, but why not use a CAPTCHA? I know they are
occasionally also circumvented, but it requires a real person, which
is a lot more effort.
I wouldn't be surprised if spammers use OCR, at least for the captchas
that are not terribly readable (which is again also a question of
annoying real users - I've seen captchas that are nearly impossible to
read by humans)
Besides that, blocking spam(mers) is possible even without using
captchas.
That's not a theory - it's real.
I'm running some sites with a guestbook page, and the "write into
guestbook" form is of course the main attraction for spammers.
On one site, I get some thousand spam attemps per month. If things go
really bad, I have to manually delete one (!) entry per month ;-)
Let me finish the mail with some details:
- the guestbook spamfilter is implemented in 15 lines of PHP
(yes, blocking webform spam is much easier than blocking spam mails)
- one of my filter conditions is a check if two fields contain the same
(non-empty) content
- spammers typically enter links in textareas, so checking for "<a href"
and "[link=" is a good idea
- it's also a good idea to limit how often "http://" may be in a
textarea
- and, best of all - if someone entered "abc123" in a textarea, it's a
sure sign for a spammer ;-)
Regards,
Christian Boltz
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27 Jun
27 Jun
1:57 a.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Forum registration has many data that a user doesn't want to give
Christian Boltz wrote:
I'm certain they do, that's why the graphical CAPTCHAs are always
twisted etc.
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Hello,
Am Mittwoch, 26. Juni 2013 schrieb Per Jessen:
Hmm, I guess they might. I'm not so sure - even casual polls on news
sites are using CAPTCHAs.
Christian Boltz wrote:
Because they annoy real users. This also means that one of my spam defenses is
having a field that
is hidden by CSS - if it is filled, it's a sure sign for a
spammer...
Nice one, good idea, but why not use a CAPTCHA? I know they
are
occasionally also circumvented, but it requires a real person, which
is a lot more effort.
I wouldn't be surprised if spammers use OCR, at least for the captchas
that are not terribly readable
3:24 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Forum registration has many data that a user doesn't want to give
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
On Thursday, 2013-06-27 at 07:57 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:
Hmm, I guess they might. I'm not so sure - even casual polls on news
sites are using CAPTCHAs.
They annoy me. On some sites I have to try 3 or four times to get past
them :-(
There are some dumb sites that ask for a capcha after login/pass. And I
know of one that asks for a human question (not capcha) before asking for
login/pass, to deter dictionary attacks.
- --
Cheers,
Carlos E. R.
(from 12.3 x86_64 "Dartmouth" at Telcontar)
Christian Boltz wrote:
Nice one, good idea, but why not use a CAPTCHA?
Because they annoy real users. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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28 Jun
28 Jun
3:27 a.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Forum registration has many data that a user doesn't want to give
Carlos E. R. wrote:
On Thursday, 2013-06-27 at 07:57 +0200, Per Jessen
wrote:
Hmm, I guess they might. I'm not so sure - even casual polls on news
sites are using CAPTCHAs.
They annoy me. On some sites I have to try 3 or four times to get past
them :-(
There are some dumb sites that ask for a capcha after login/pass. And
I know of one that asks for a human question (not capcha) before
asking for login/pass, to deter dictionary attacks.
Just for the record - CAPTCHAs come in many different forms, it's not
just the usual obscured graphic. "Wie viel ist dreiundzwanzig plus
vierzehn?" is also a CAPTCHA.
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Christian Boltz wrote:
Nice one, good idea, but why not use a CAPTCHA?
Because they annoy real users.
25 Jun
25 Jun
10:12 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Forum registration has many data that a user doesn't want to give
On Tue, 25 Jun 2013 04:06:19 +0000 (UTC)
Jim Henderson <hendersj(a)gmail.com> wrote:
It is expectation that with lower barrier to contribution, we will have
more members and that will lower chance of spam being undetected for
longer period of time which will lower spammer's incentive to post
spam.
On Mon, 24 Jun 2013 21:38:22 -0500, Rajko wrote:
...
Absolutely
not.
Whether we like it or not spam is part of online business and even
complicated form did not prevent it. In other words it is useless
as a deterrent.
You have no data that I am aware of (as I'm not sure how you'd gather
it) to demonstrate that the level of spam isn't lower than it would
be with a simpler process. Of course, if you do, feel free to share it. I'd
be interested in
how you gathered it.
You don't need data, just a bit knowledge about spammers and their
tools. The rest is just a logical conclusion.
Spammers use bots, as confirmed by Christian, that handle long and
short forms with the same level of satisfaction (they don't care), which
we can't tell for humans, considering repeated complaints. In other
words we repel only real people by using long form.
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11:32 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Forum registration has many data that a user doesn't want to give
On Tue, 25 Jun 2013 21:12:15 -0500, Rajko wrote:
The rest is a guess - maybe an educated guess, but still a guess.
On Tue, 25 Jun 2013 04:06:19 +0000 (UTC)
Jim Henderson <hendersj(a)gmail.com> wrote:
It is expectation that with lower barrier to contribution, we will have
more members and that will lower chance of spam being undetected for
longer period of time which will lower spammer's incentive to post spam.
Have you ever been contacted by someone who said "gee, I'd love to
contribute to the openSUSE project, but your sign-up form is just too
long; it'd take me 2 minutes to fill it out, but I can only spare 10
seconds to fill out the form."
I kinda doubt it. If someone wants to contribute to the project and sign
up for an account, taking the 2 minutes to register is small compared to
the amount of time they'll put into the project if they want to be a
significant contributor.
It's not like they have to fill the darned form out every time they make
a contribution to the project. They fill it out exactly *once*. Then
maybe another 5-10 minutes turnaround (not of actual *work*) to validate
their e-mail address.
On Mon, 24 Jun 2013 21:38:22 -0500, Rajko wrote:
...
Absolutely not.
Whether we like it or not spam is part of online business and even
complicated form did not prevent it. In other words it is useless as
a deterrent.
You have no data that I am aware of (as I'm not sure how you'd gather
it) to demonstrate that the level of spam isn't lower than it would be
with a simpler process. Of course, if
you do, feel free to share it. I'd be interested in how
you gathered it.
You don't need data, just a bit knowledge about spammers and their
tools. The rest is just a logical conclusion. Spammers use bots, as confirmed by Christian, that
handle long and short
forms with the same level of satisfaction (they don't care), which we
can't tell for humans, considering repeated complaints. In other words
we repel only real people by using long form.
Well, I guess it was time for the annual debate about this anyways. ;)
Jim
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26 Jun
26 Jun
12:17 a.m.
On 2013-06-26 03:32 (GMT) Jim Henderson composed:
If someone wants to contribute to the project and
sign
up for an account, taking the 2 minutes to register is small compared to
the amount of time they'll put into the project if they want to be a
significant contributor.
IMO it's not the time, but the very _idea_ of divulging of information that
bears no apparent justification or relevance as a pre-condition to acceptance
of gratis contribution to a FOSS project, and is information not required by
similar or even any other FOSS projects.
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Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!
Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/
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4:29 a.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Forum registration has many data that a user doesn't want to give
Hi,
https://secure-www.novell.com/selfreg/jsp/createOpenSuseAccount.jsp
Ciao, Marcus
On Wed, Jun 26, 2013 at 12:17:37AM -0400, Felix Miata wrote:
On 2013-06-26 03:32 (GMT) Jim Henderson composed:
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If someone wants to contribute to the project and
sign
up for an account, taking the 2 minutes to register is small compared to
the amount of time they'll put into the project if they want to be a
significant contributor.
IMO it's not the time, but the very _idea_ of divulging of information that
bears no apparent justification or relevance as a pre-condition to
acceptance of gratis contribution to a FOSS project, and is information not
required by similar or even any other FOSS projects.
--
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words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)
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Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/
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5:42 a.m.
Marcus Meissner wrote:
Hi,
https://secure-www.novell.com/selfreg/jsp/createOpenSuseAccount.jsp
Ciao, Marcus
Yes, that form is short and concise, but I guess that is not the one
used for forum registration?
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6:06 a.m.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
On Wednesday, 2013-06-26 at 11:42 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:
Marcus Meissner wrote:
But it is valid.
Once you register, you get in, no matter how exactly you register.
So we only need to point people to the place Marcus mentioned instead of
the default one. Also, if the short form exists, the long one is moot.
- --
Cheers,
Carlos E. R.
(from 12.3 x86_64 "Dartmouth" at Telcontar)
Hi,
https://secure-www.novell.com/selfreg/jsp/createOpenSuseAccount.jsp
Ciao, Marcus
Yes, that form is short and concise, but I guess that is not the one
used for forum registration? -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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x1MAn0REGxz3oAL6YVLd0c4pPJiBeQKm
=umoB
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
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5:40 a.m.
Felix Miata wrote:
On 2013-06-26 03:32 (GMT) Jim Henderson composed:
+1
It's a simple issue of privacy and perception.
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If someone wants to contribute to the project and
sign
up for an account, taking the 2 minutes to register is small compared
to the amount of time they'll put into the project if they want to be
a significant contributor.
IMO it's not the time, but the very _idea_ of divulging of information
that bears no apparent justification or relevance as a pre-condition
to acceptance of gratis contribution to a FOSS project, and is
information not required by similar or even any other FOSS projects.
12:35 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Forum registration has many data that a user doesn't want to give
On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 00:17:37 -0400, Felix Miata wrote:
IMO it's not the time, but the very _idea_ of
divulging of information
that bears no apparent justification or relevance as a pre-condition to
acceptance of gratis contribution to a FOSS project, and is information
not required by similar or even any other FOSS projects.
And of course, this is like a credit application, everything put on the
forum *must* be 100% accurate under penalty of perjury.
I understand now.
(Yes, sarcasm)
As I've said, I'm in favor of using the short form by default, but the
level of resistance to the longer form being used just strikes me as over-
the-top.
Jim
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4:29 a.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Forum registration has many data that a user doesn't want to give
Hi,
https://secure-www.novell.com/selfreg/jsp/createOpenSuseAccount.jsp
Ciao, Marcus
On Wed, Jun 26, 2013 at 03:32:55AM +0000, Jim Henderson wrote:
On Tue, 25 Jun 2013 21:12:15 -0500, Rajko wrote:
The rest is a guess - maybe an educated guess, but still a guess.
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On Tue, 25 Jun 2013 04:06:19 +0000 (UTC)
Jim Henderson <hendersj(a)gmail.com> wrote:
It is expectation that with lower barrier to contribution, we will have
more members and that will lower chance of spam being undetected for
longer period of time which will lower spammer's incentive to post spam.
Have you ever been contacted by someone who said "gee, I'd love to
contribute to the openSUSE project, but your sign-up form is just too
long; it'd take me 2 minutes to fill it out, but I can only spare 10
seconds to fill out the form."
I kinda doubt it. If someone wants to contribute to the project and sign
up for an account, taking the 2 minutes to register is small compared to
the amount of time they'll put into the project if they want to be a
significant contributor.
It's not like they have to fill the darned form out every time they make
a contribution to the project. They fill it out exactly *once*. Then
maybe another 5-10 minutes turnaround (not of actual *work*) to validate
their e-mail address.
On Mon, 24 Jun 2013 21:38:22 -0500, Rajko wrote:
...
Absolutely not.
Whether we like it or not spam is part of online business and even
complicated form did not prevent it. In other words it is useless as
a deterrent.
You have no data that I am aware of (as I'm not sure how you'd gather
it) to demonstrate that the level of spam isn't lower than it would be
with a simpler process. Of
course, if you do, feel free to share it. I'd be interested in how
you gathered it.
You don't need data, just a bit knowledge about spammers and their
tools. The rest is just a logical conclusion. Spammers use bots, as confirmed by Christian,
that handle long and short
forms with the same level of satisfaction (they don't care), which we
can't tell for humans, considering repeated complaints. In other words
we repel only real people by using long form.
Well, I guess it was time for the annual debate about this anyways. ;)
Jim
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6:09 a.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Forum registration has many data that a user doesn't want to give
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
On Wednesday, 2013-06-26 at 03:32 -0000, Jim Henderson wrote:
On Tue, 25 Jun 2013 21:12:15 -0500, Rajko wrote:
Have you ever been contacted by someone who said
"gee, I'd love to
contribute to the openSUSE project, but your sign-up form is just too
long; it'd take me 2 minutes to fill it out, but I can only spare 10
seconds to fill out the form."
We have been contacted by people refusing to connect and ask questions
because of that long form, yes. Would be contributors seldom are
newcommers.
The issue is not the time required, but the privacy.
- --
Cheers,
Carlos E. R.
(from 12.3 x86_64 "Dartmouth" at Telcontar)
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12:34 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Forum registration has many data that a user doesn't want to give
On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 12:09:33 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
We have been contacted by people refusing to connect
and ask questions
because of that long form, yes. Would be contributors seldom are
newcommers.
The issue is not the time required, but the privacy.
It's not that difficult to use fake information. There's a fair amount
of false information in that system, from what I understand.
Jim
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27 Jun
27 Jun
9:48 a.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Forum registration has many data that a user doesn't want to give
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
On Wednesday, 2013-06-26 at 16:34 -0000, Jim Henderson wrote:
On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 12:09:33 +0200, Carlos E. R.
wrote:
IMO, it is very bad that the information collected can be false in large
proportions. That alone should be a reason to stop collecting it.
- --
Cheers,
Carlos E. R.
(from 12.3 x86_64 "Dartmouth" at Telcontar)
We have been contacted by people refusing to
connect and ask questions
because of that long form, yes. Would be contributors seldom are
newcommers.
The issue is not the time required, but the privacy.
It's not that difficult to use fake information. There's a fair amount
of false information in that system, from what I understand. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v2.0.19 (GNU/Linux)
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I/8An15y9JScUbNZSOu55FTwi2KY3iQL
=PnzU
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
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1:57 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Forum registration has many data that a user doesn't want to give
On Thu, 27 Jun 2013 15:48:16 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
And when one doesn't get to make that decision, then one does the best
with what one has available.
Jim
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It's not
that difficult to use fake information. There's a fair amount
of false information in that system, from what I understand.
IMO, it is very bad that the information collected can be false in large
proportions. That alone should be a reason to stop collecting it. 
2:26 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Forum registration has many data that a user doesn't want to give
Hi Jim,
Am 26.06.2013 05:32, schrieb Jim Henderson:
Have you ever been contacted by someone who said
"gee, I'd love to
contribute to the openSUSE project, but your sign-up form is just too
long; it'd take me 2 minutes to fill it out, but I can only spare 10
seconds to fill out the form."
No, because those people don't complain or contact anyone, they just go
elsewhere.
If I had to fill out the form today (I filled it almost 10 years ago and
I did not need to give all that information back then, probably because
I came from the internal network), I'd just turn away and look for
another distribution that wants my contribution.
I'm not giving all my private data to everyone on the internet. Period.
And "you can just enter fake data" => then why are they asking for it
anyway?
I don't buy from spammers.
I don't service unreasonable requests for personal data.
If someone wants me to help with his project, he should not force me to
do things I don't want to do (give away too much personal data)
I kinda doubt it. If someone wants to contribute to
the project and sign
up for an account, taking the 2 minutes to register is small compared to
the amount of time they'll put into the project if they want to be a
significant contributor.
Yes. But at least in my case, I'd consider this form as "that project
does not want my help."
It's not about the time filling out the form. It's about the
unreasonable request.
And yes, I know, there are people using facebook etc. and not caring
about their privacy in any way.
I'm not one of them.
And it does not help the project to ridicule those requests for a
reasonable signup form IMVHO.
It just makes me think "how have i come here? Do I really want to be
here?" (A feeling I already get on a regular base because of the
technical decisions anyway...)
--
Stefan Seyfried
"If your lighter runs out of fluid or flint and stops making
fire, and you can't be bothered to figure out about lighter
fluid or flint, that is not Zippo's fault." -- bkw
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5:33 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Forum registration has many data that a user doesn't want to give
On Thu, 27 Jun 2013 20:26:24 +0200, Stefan Seyfried wrote:
And it does not help the project to ridicule those
requests for a
reasonable signup form IMVHO.
Nobody's ridiculing that request. I've said I'm in favor of the shorter
form, multiple times.
But my reasons are nothing more than it only makes sense to collect
necessary data - and while that data is necessary for corporate customers
of SUSE/Novell/NetIQ, it's not for openSUSE.
So again, I'm in *agreement* that the simpler form *should* be used. But
the amount of energy put into this discussion year after year after year
seems really unnecessary to me. *Yes* we should use the shorter form.
That it hasn't happened, though, isn't a death knell to the project.
It's an inconvenience at worst AFAICS.
Jim
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26 Jun
4:29 a.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Forum registration has many data that a user doesn't want to give
Hi,
Did you read my email that there are _TWO_ sign up forms?
There is:
https://www.suse.com/selfreg/jsp/createAccount.jsp
which is long with lots of fields to fill in
and there is (reachable from e.g. build.opensuse.org):
https://secure-www.novell.com/selfreg/jsp/createOpenSuseAccount.jsp
Which only needs your name and country as mandatory fields.
Just point cautious users to the second one.
Ciao, Marcus
On Tue, Jun 25, 2013 at 09:12:15PM -0500, Rajko wrote:
On Tue, 25 Jun 2013 04:06:19 +0000 (UTC)
Jim Henderson <hendersj(a)gmail.com> wrote:
It is expectation that with lower barrier to contribution, we will have
more members and that will lower chance of spam being undetected for
longer period of time which will lower spammer's incentive to post
spam.
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On Mon, 24 Jun 2013 21:38:22 -0500, Rajko wrote:
...
Absolutely not.
Whether we like it or not spam is part of online business and even
complicated form did not prevent it. In other words it is useless
as a deterrent.
You have no data that I am aware of (as I'm not sure how you'd gather
it) to demonstrate that the level of spam isn't lower than it would
be with a simpler process. Of course, if you do, feel free to share it.
I'd be interested in
how you gathered it.
You don't need data, just a bit knowledge about spammers and their
tools. The rest is just a logical conclusion.
Spammers use bots, as confirmed by Christian, that handle long and
short forms with the same level of satisfaction (they don't care), which
we can't tell for humans, considering repeated complaints. In other
words we repel only real people by using long form.
--
Regards, Rajko.
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6:13 a.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Forum registration has many data that a user doesn't want to give
On 06/26/2013 10:29 AM, Marcus Meissner wrote:
Did you read my email that there are _TWO_ sign up
forms?
There is:
https://www.suse.com/selfreg/jsp/createAccount.jsp
which is long with lots of fields to fill in
and there is (reachable from e.g. build.opensuse.org):
https://secure-www.novell.com/selfreg/jsp/createOpenSuseAccount.jsp
Which only needs your name and country as mandatory fields.
Just point cautious users to the second one.
might it be an idea for the opensuse.org webmaster to cause _every_
account creation request originating from _any_ opensuse.org page to
present the short form, only..
on the other hand, if suse.de, novell or netiq.com wishes to have all
requests originating from their pages to use only the long form, then
their webmasters could require that.
think about it: 99.9n% of all new potential openSUSE
users/contributors will never need accounts at any of Novell, NetIQ,
SUSE.de or Attachmate.
and, if an openSUSE user/contributor decides they do need account
holder access to those non-openSUSE sites, then the additional
personal info they need can be collected simply by presenting the
long form pre-populated with the short form's data whenever they
might try to access account holder only areas/data/repos/etc..
dd
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10:17 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Forum registration has many data that a user doesn't want to give
On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 10:29:36 +0200
Marcus Meissner <meissner(a)suse.de> wrote:
Did you read my email that there are _TWO_ sign up
forms?
I did Marcus, and you can see from my post that I listed that link.
Problem is that only Build Service has that link.
Just point cautious users to the second one.
We will not see large majority of them. They will silently find
someone that doesn't ask that much. Web is huge and there is a plenty of
offers for each imaginable thing.
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25 Jun
10:32 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Forum registration has many data that a user doesn't want to give
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
On Monday, 2013-06-24 at 21:38 -0500, Rajko wrote:
It is a matter or motivation, and my view is that we
lose more regular
users and small contributors that come to help, or for help, and have
weaker motivation then spammers to fill unwieldy long form. Spammer get
paid, or at least think that he can make money from spam, while small
contributor is not pressed to put up with long form.
IMHO, I don't see the motivation for a long form if people are going to
fake their answers. Even less if bots can fill long forms just fine.
- --
Cheers,
Carlos E. R.
(from 12.3 x86_64 "Dartmouth" at Telcontar)
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21 Jun
21 Jun
3:29 p.m.
On 06/21/2013 06:47 PM, Efstathios Iosifidis (aka diamond_gr) wrote:
I got few complaints about forum registration form.
The form has
fields for address, phone number etc.
Most of my friends used fake information. But I still got the
complain that there are many personal information that the new user
doesn't want to provide.
Do you think that we can do something about it?
using a usenet news client one can both read and write via the NNTP
interface without giving _any_ information, info on how here:
https://forums.opensuse.org/faq.php?faq=novfor#faq_nntp
however, the nntp server has not worked since a planned maintenance
on 19 June, and no one has said how long it might be out of service..
dd
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7:03 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Forum registration has many data that a user doesn't want to give
On Fri 21 Jun 2013 09:29:54 PM CDT, DenverD wrote:
however, the nntp server has not worked since a planned maintenance
on 19 June, and no one has said how long it might be out of service..
dd
It's back but still needs some tweaking by the looks....
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26 Jun
26 Jun
11:27 p.m.
On Fri, 21 Jun 2013 19:47:21 +0300
"Efstathios Iosifidis (aka diamond_gr)" <eiosifidis(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Hello,
I got few complaints about forum registration form. The form has
fields for address, phone number etc. ...
To make this thread shorter I opened a bug report:
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=826983
I'm not sure whom at SUSE, or Novell, to address, so I left
default assignee.
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2763
days inactive
2770
days old
38 comments
11 participants
participants (11)
-
Carlos E. R. -
Christian Boltz -
DenverD -
Efstathios Iosifidis (aka diamond_gr) -
Felix Miata -
Jim Henderson -
Malcolm -
Marcus Meissner -
Per Jessen -
Rajko -
Stefan Seyfried