As Windows 10 is being launched, details emerge what comes along with it.
Just read (1).
You will have an opinion on that.
But as nightmarish as this may seem, it also opens a huge "Window" of opportunity for openSUSE and OpenSource in general.
What came to my mind here is a campaign to make potential users aware of major benefits of openSUSE / OpenSource:
- we don't spy on you - we don't sell your privacy - we don't handcuff you
Take that as a short sketch.
This could be a campaign just for openSUSE - like a banner on openSUSE.org - or one that is conducted by and coordinated between the major distros and perhaps other organizations.
Thoughts?
Rainer Fiebig
(1) https://edri.org/microsofts-new-small-print-how-your-personal-data-abused/
On 2015-07-31 12:20, Jay wrote:
As Windows 10 is being launched, details emerge what comes along with it.
«...when signing into Windows with a Microsoft account...»
Then don't. With Windows 8, I understand you can, although it is not clearly said.
Jay:
As Windows 10 is being launched, details emerge what comes along with it.
Just read (1).
You will have an opinion on that.
But as nightmarish as this may seem, it also opens a huge "Window" of opportunity for openSUSE and OpenSource in general.
What came to my mind here is a campaign to make potential users aware of major benefits of openSUSE / OpenSource:
- we don't spy on you
- we don't sell your privacy
- we don't handcuff you
Take that as a short sketch.
This could be a campaign just for openSUSE - like a banner on openSUSE.org - or one that is conducted by and coordinated between the major distros and perhaps other organizations.
Thoughts?
Microsoft is a partner in many project at SUSE (vmdp, UEFI etc...). So this is not a good idea to do that....
Rainer Fiebig
(1) https://edri.org/microsofts-new-small-print-how-your-personal-data-abused/
To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On July 31, 2015 8:06:43 AM EDT, Antoine Ginies aginies@suse.com wrote:
Jay:
As Windows 10 is being launched, details emerge what comes along with
it.
Just read (1).
You will have an opinion on that.
But as nightmarish as this may seem, it also opens a huge "Window" of opportunity for openSUSE and OpenSource in general.
What came to my mind here is a campaign to make potential users aware of major benefits of openSUSE / OpenSource:
- we don't spy on you
- we don't sell your privacy
- we don't handcuff you
Take that as a short sketch.
This could be a campaign just for openSUSE - like a banner on
openSUSE.org -
or one that is conducted by and coordinated between the major distros
and
perhaps other organizations.
Thoughts?
Microsoft is a partner in many project at SUSE (vmdp, UEFI etc...). So this is not a good idea to do that....
This may be a place openSUSE needs to show its independence from SUSE.
The privacy issues associated with that link show an invasion of privacy worse than Google's.
Further, it appears retroactive so this affects anyone that logs into a Microsoft online account: sky-drive, office365, etc independent of them upgrading to Windows 10.
Further, if you exchange emails with anyone that logs into a Microsoft online account Microsoft has good even themselves authority to read that email and use it to build your profile.
I use Windows 7 at work. I rarely log into a Microsoft online account, but I have one for various reasons. The new privacy policy seems to give Microsoft the right to mine my computer for information 7x24 as long as it keeps it local to my PC, then on the rare occasion I log into my Microsoft online account, upload all the profile info to MS.
I know Google does similar things. I don't know how to truly preserve my privacy, but staying off of Windows as much as possible seems like one step I can actually do.
Thus I fully support Jay's vision.
Greg
Am Freitag, 31. Juli 2015, 14:06:43 schrieb Antoine Ginies:
Jay:
As Windows 10 is being launched, details emerge what comes along with it.
Just read (1).
You will have an opinion on that.
But as nightmarish as this may seem, it also opens a huge "Window" of opportunity for openSUSE and OpenSource in general.
What came to my mind here is a campaign to make potential users aware of major benefits of openSUSE / OpenSource:
- we don't spy on you
- we don't sell your privacy
- we don't handcuff you
Take that as a short sketch.
This could be a campaign just for openSUSE - like a banner on openSUSE.org
- or one that is conducted by and coordinated between the major distros
and perhaps other organizations.
Thoughts?
Microsoft is a partner in many project at SUSE (vmdp, UEFI etc...). So this is not a good idea to do that....
I understand.
Don't get me wrong: I'm not anti-business. Nor am I anti-Microsoft. I've been using their products since ages. And some of them were good.
But their new privacy-policy simply goes too far. For me, a red line has been crossed. And it was Microsoft's well-deliberated choice to do so.
In addition, I realise that the partnership with Microsoft prevents openSUSE to take advantage of a major opportunity to attract new users.
That's a pity for openSUSE. And a disappointment for any competitive marketer.
I really regret it - but under these circumstances it does not make sense for me to further participate in the openSUSE-project.
I hope I didn't hurt anybody's feelings in the discussions I took part in.
And I wish you guys and the openSUSE-project all the best! And I mean it.
Good-bye and kind regards!
Rainer Fiebig
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256
On 2015-07-31 16:26, Jay wrote:
In addition, I realise that the partnership with Microsoft prevents openSUSE to take advantage of a major opportunity to attract new users.
openSUSE doesn't have a partnership with Microsoft. SUSE does. Whether it makes a sufficient difference, that's another matter...
- -- Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R.
(from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith))
Le vendredi 31 juillet 2015 à 16:43 +0200, Carlos E. R. a écrit :
On 2015-07-31 16:26, Jay wrote:
In addition, I realise that the partnership with Microsoft prevents openSUSE to take advantage of a major opportunity to attract new users.
openSUSE doesn't have a partnership with Microsoft. SUSE does. Whether it makes a sufficient difference, that's another matter...
Well, downplaying competition is easy, but on this particular topic, I think we (openSUSE) can just explain why our OS is better without giving the name of others OS (otherwise, we would need also to put Ubuntu in the "bad" one, since they are doing queries against Amazon by default). IMHO, people are smart enough.
And I'm not saying that because SUSE has a relationship with MS ;)
On 2015-07-31 17:15, Frederic Crozat wrote:
Well, downplaying competition is easy, but on this particular topic, I think we (openSUSE) can just explain why our OS is better without giving the name of others OS (otherwise, we would need also to put Ubuntu in the "bad" one, since they are doing queries against Amazon by default). IMHO, people are smart enough.
That's a fair point :-)
Am 31.07.2015 um 16:43 schrieb Carlos E. R.:
openSUSE doesn't have a partnership with Microsoft. SUSE does.
As far as I can tell as a customer, SUSE doe no longer have a partnership with Microsoft.
If they had, It would not be totally impossible to get Microsoft support to even look at a Windows problem when the VM is running on a SLES11 Xen Hypervisor.
Or that "partnership" is only a piece of paper...
Jay,
Don't jump ship too fast. Watch the discussion you initiated at a minimum.
From what I can tell Antoine has made exactly one post to one of the
main openSUSE lists in the last 2 1/2 years and it was the one you just read:
http://opensuse.markmail.org/search/?q=+from%3A%22Antoine+Ginies%22
There is no reason to assume he has any influence over the openSUSE project. ie. Just because a random SUSE employee says jump, it doesn't mean the openSUSE community says "How high?"
If Antoine wants to use his SUSE position to influence openSUSE he has to work through Richard Brown (openSUSE chair and official SUSE representative to openSUSE).
Greg -- Greg Freemyer www.IntelligentAvatar.net
On Fri, Jul 31, 2015 at 10:26 AM, Jay MyMailClone@t-online.de wrote:
Am Freitag, 31. Juli 2015, 14:06:43 schrieb Antoine Ginies:
Jay:
As Windows 10 is being launched, details emerge what comes along with it.
Just read (1).
You will have an opinion on that.
But as nightmarish as this may seem, it also opens a huge "Window" of opportunity for openSUSE and OpenSource in general.
What came to my mind here is a campaign to make potential users aware of major benefits of openSUSE / OpenSource:
- we don't spy on you
- we don't sell your privacy
- we don't handcuff you
Take that as a short sketch.
This could be a campaign just for openSUSE - like a banner on openSUSE.org
- or one that is conducted by and coordinated between the major distros
and perhaps other organizations.
Thoughts?
Microsoft is a partner in many project at SUSE (vmdp, UEFI etc...). So this is not a good idea to do that....
I understand.
Don't get me wrong: I'm not anti-business. Nor am I anti-Microsoft. I've been using their products since ages. And some of them were good.
But their new privacy-policy simply goes too far. For me, a red line has been crossed. And it was Microsoft's well-deliberated choice to do so.
In addition, I realise that the partnership with Microsoft prevents openSUSE to take advantage of a major opportunity to attract new users.
That's a pity for openSUSE. And a disappointment for any competitive marketer.
I really regret it - but under these circumstances it does not make sense for me to further participate in the openSUSE-project.
I hope I didn't hurt anybody's feelings in the discussions I took part in.
And I wish you guys and the openSUSE-project all the best! And I mean it.
Good-bye and kind regards!
Rainer Fiebig
To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Hi Rainer,
On Fri, Jul 31, 2015 at 04:26:01PM +0200, Jay wrote:
Am Freitag, 31. Juli 2015, 14:06:43 schrieb Antoine Ginies:
Jay:
[ 8< ]
Microsoft is a partner in many project at SUSE (vmdp, UEFI etc...). So this is not a good idea to do that....
I understand.
Don't get me wrong: I'm not anti-business. Nor am I anti-Microsoft. I've been using their products since ages. And some of them were good.
But their new privacy-policy simply goes too far. For me, a red line has been crossed. And it was Microsoft's well-deliberated choice to do so.
In addition, I realise that the partnership with Microsoft prevents openSUSE to take advantage of a major opportunity to attract new users.
That's a pity for openSUSE. And a disappointment for any competitive marketer.
I really regret it - but under these circumstances it does not make sense for me to further participate in the openSUSE-project.
That was one voice out of many and Antoine expressed his personal view.
As you said openSUSE is independent and an issue like this one proves how separated the openSUSE project and SUSE are.
I appreciate and value your work and like to see it continued!
Cheers,
Lars
Hi All,
While I'm really pleased and encouraged to see such a passionate discussion about Marketing openSUSE, including targeting very specific areas of opportunity, I want to provide some food for thought which hopefully sheds some light on my _personal opinion_ where we should be expending our efforts
As this thread has started with Windows 10, lets spend a second thinking about Microsoft's motivation for making Windows 10
Microsoft make Windows 10 to make money More users means Microsoft get more money So Microsoft's primary marketing audience is users, in order to get more users, in order to make more money
Does it make sense for openSUSE to target that same primary audience?
I'd argue No but it's nothing to do with Microsoft partnering with SUSE or even Microsoft's recent and growing contributions to the Linux ecosystem in general
It's a simple case of considering *openSUSE's* motivation for existing
openSUSE does not make openSUSE to make money More consumer users does not mean more money In fact, it can be argued that typical consumer users bring additional 'costs', requiring more infrastructure and help in order to support them. Should openSUSE's primary marketing audience be standard consumer users?
I'd believe the correct answer to that question is No
So why do we make openSUSE?
There's lots of reasons, we're a diverse community, but I would say one over-arching theme that is true for the vast majority of us is "we make openSUSE to make & use better technology"
Contributors developing to the openSUSE Project make openSUSE and tools like OBS and openQA in an effort to make the best engineered Linux distributions and tools in the world
Many users of openSUSE, be they sysadmins, developers, or power users are often drawn to openSUSE because of our well engineered products, but also because they want to build _their own_ projects upon the best software, the best tools, and the best engineering.
This might be something as 'simple' as their personal workstation, or a small raspberry Pi project, or as complicated as a geo-cluster hosted in several datacenters around the world.
It doesn't matter about the scale of the use, I'd say that the reason most people are drawn to openSUSE is that good engineering backbone which forms the foundation of everything we do.
Sysadmins want the best engineered Linux to run their machines and their administration terminals, with the tools to make their life as easy as possible..
Developers want the best engineered Linux to run their dev machines, test servers, and productiong systems, with the tools and the latest development stacks provided as easily possible.
And there are many other people who are often categorised as 'Power users' who overlap or aspire to be with those two other categories to varying degrees, who want a powerful operating system, well engineered and reliable, so they can get whatever their work is done.
All three of these groups are likely to be very passionate about what they use, and are likely to share that with like-minded people they meet and talk to.
All three of these groups are technically minded, and are therefore more likely to be able and willing to contribute back to our open source project than a standard consumer use who just wants something that works, and has no deeper interest than that.
All three of these groups want both stable technologies they can rely on, and the latest and greatest innovations so they can have an edge to solve the problems they face in their own projects.
Embracing these realities and focusing the marketing of openSUSE accordingly is the concept the Board calls "The Makers Choice"
openSUSE already builds openSUSE to provide the best Linux and tools for themselves and anyone else who wants to build upon them.
We already have OBS, openQA and other tools, as well as Tumbleweed, and soon we will have Leap, which all fit into a very strong narrative around this theme.
More *contributors* mean we can build more, build better and find more people to help is build even more, and build even better.
I strongly believe our primary audience should therefore be these 'Makers' - Developers, sysadmins, and power users.
People should want to use our open source technologies to build great things, either for themselves or for everyone else.
We should focus our marketing on making it very obvious to these people that we are the right choice for them, for all of the reasons I outline above.
This audience contains people who are much more likely and easily going to transition from just using openSUSE to using AND contributing to openSUSE, and this will help us build and continue momentum going forward.
And when we're doing this, building great things with what I've described above us our *Primary* focus, I would expect that we'll be well positioned to also appeal strongly to a *Secondary* audience of consumer users, who may just want to use openSUSE because it's better than everything else.
And that's fine, great, and I look forward to that day - but lets spend the majority of our time and effort focusing where we get the most benefit, which in my opinion really means embracing the concept of 'The Makers Choice' and using it as a strong guide to direct our marketing efforts for the next years.
Regards,
Richard
On 31 July 2015 at 16:26, Jay MyMailClone@t-online.de wrote:
Am Freitag, 31. Juli 2015, 14:06:43 schrieb Antoine Ginies:
Jay:
As Windows 10 is being launched, details emerge what comes along with it.
Just read (1).
You will have an opinion on that.
But as nightmarish as this may seem, it also opens a huge "Window" of opportunity for openSUSE and OpenSource in general.
What came to my mind here is a campaign to make potential users aware of major benefits of openSUSE / OpenSource:
- we don't spy on you
- we don't sell your privacy
- we don't handcuff you
Take that as a short sketch.
This could be a campaign just for openSUSE - like a banner on openSUSE.org
- or one that is conducted by and coordinated between the major distros
and perhaps other organizations.
Thoughts?
Microsoft is a partner in many project at SUSE (vmdp, UEFI etc...). So this is not a good idea to do that....
I understand.
Don't get me wrong: I'm not anti-business. Nor am I anti-Microsoft. I've been using their products since ages. And some of them were good.
But their new privacy-policy simply goes too far. For me, a red line has been crossed. And it was Microsoft's well-deliberated choice to do so.
In addition, I realise that the partnership with Microsoft prevents openSUSE to take advantage of a major opportunity to attract new users.
That's a pity for openSUSE. And a disappointment for any competitive marketer.
I really regret it - but under these circumstances it does not make sense for me to further participate in the openSUSE-project.
I hope I didn't hurt anybody's feelings in the discussions I took part in.
And I wish you guys and the openSUSE-project all the best! And I mean it.
Good-bye and kind regards!
Rainer Fiebig
To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
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On 2015-08-02 11:46, Richard Brown wrote:
It's a simple case of considering *openSUSE's* motivation for existing
openSUSE does not make openSUSE to make money More consumer users does not mean more money In fact, it can be argued that typical consumer users bring additional 'costs', requiring more infrastructure and help in order to support them. Should openSUSE's primary marketing audience be standard consumer users?
Not the primary target - another target :-)
If those users that are ripe to jump boat from Windows, don't see openSUSE as a target, they will go to Ubuntu :-P
On the other hand, we do want more Linux users: the more we have, the more attention we get from the many industries that target Windows only for their produce.
- -- Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)
And if we do that then what? It's like throwing all translators, artists, people on the marketing team etc (who many of them might not be power users) under the bus. It's like saying thanks for all your trouble and what you do for openSUSE but yeah our distro is not for you.
On Sun, Aug 2, 2015 at 2:29 PM, Carlos E. R. carlos.e.r@opensuse.org wrote:
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On 2015-08-02 11:46, Richard Brown wrote:
It's a simple case of considering *openSUSE's* motivation for existing
openSUSE does not make openSUSE to make money More consumer users does not mean more money In fact, it can be argued that typical consumer users bring additional 'costs', requiring more infrastructure and help in order to support them. Should openSUSE's primary marketing audience be standard consumer users?
Not the primary target - another target :-)
If those users that are ripe to jump boat from Windows, don't see openSUSE as a target, they will go to Ubuntu :-P
On the other hand, we do want more Linux users: the more we have, the more attention we get from the many industries that target Windows only for their produce.
Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux)
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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On 2 August 2015 at 14:00, Dimitris Papapoulios skiarxon@opensuse.org wrote:
And if we do that then what? It's like throwing all translators, artists, people on the marketing team etc (who many of them might not be power users) under the bus. It's like saying thanks for all your trouble and what you do for openSUSE but yeah our distro is not for you.
Well, for 10 years we've struggled with both Artwork and Marketing, and I would say that while we still have some very dedicated individuals who are still doing excellent work in this area, I would not describe openSUSE as having either an Marketing or Artwork 'team' at the moment
And that leads to questions like "Why?" - which has obvious answers like "We're a very technically orientated project" - which leads to thoughts like "How can we turn that weakness into a strength?" - which is partially how we ended up with the concept with the tagline "The Makers Choice"
It's about embracing what we *are* and using that as a key message in our marketing so we can *grow* and *extend* as a Project.
"The Makers Choice" hopefully gives those interested in Marketing and Artwork concepts to hang onto, a starting point from which they can build upon so we DO have a Marketing/Artwork team going forward.
I've been in enough meetings with enough people involved in our previous Marketing teams to know that a starting point like this has been the #1 thing required by the openSUSE Project with regards to Marketing for the several years.
Now we have it, we no longer have an excuse to spend our time pontificating about what our message should be, lets get going with actually spreading the word.
--
As for Translators, I'm sorry, the suggestion that our translators are not at least power users is laughable
Given they're using SVN, trunks, checkouts, PO and POT files and contributing to openSUSE as part of their regular contributing business, they are the very definition of Power Users who contribute, or, to put in a single word _Makers_
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On 2015-08-02 14:50, Richard Brown wrote:
As for Translators, I'm sorry, the suggestion that our translators are not at least power users is laughable
Given they're using SVN, trunks, checkouts, PO and POT files and contributing to openSUSE as part of their regular contributing business, they are the very definition of Power Users who contribute, or, to put in a single word _Makers_
Well, no, most of them do not use svn or checkouts/commits, not even POT files :-) Only a few of them use those tools. Most of them use the Vertaal web interface, which hides those details.
Then they use some high level tool to translate the po file, like lokalize.
- -- Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)
As for Translators, I'm sorry, the suggestion that our translators are not at least power users is laughable
Given they're using SVN, trunks, checkouts, PO and POT files and contributing to openSUSE as part of their regular contributing business, they are the very definition of Power Users who contribute, or, to put in a single word _Makers_
Well, no, most of them do not use svn or checkouts/commits, not even POT files :-) Only a few of them use those tools. Most of them use the Vertaal web interface, which hides those details.
Then they use some high level tool to translate the po file, like lokalize.
I agree with Carlos. The majority of translators use Vertaal or if not, then they ask coordinator to send them the po file. I don't know anyone who converts po to pot files, insert the pot files to the distro to check the result of the translation. Translators expect something easier, something like transifex or similar software.
Op maandag 3 augustus 2015 09:59:05 schreef Efstathios Iosifidis:
As for Translators, I'm sorry, the suggestion that our translators are not at least power users is laughable
Given they're using SVN, trunks, checkouts, PO and POT files and contributing to openSUSE as part of their regular contributing business, they are the very definition of Power Users who contribute, or, to put in a single word _Makers_
Well, no, most of them do not use svn or checkouts/commits, not even POT files :-) Only a few of them use those tools. Most of them use the Vertaal web interface, which hides those details.
Then they use some high level tool to translate the po file, like lokalize.
I agree with Carlos. The majority of translators use Vertaal or if not, then they ask coordinator to send them the po file. I don't know anyone who converts po to pot files, insert the pot files to the distro to check the result of the translation. Translators expect something easier, something like transifex or similar software.
I am quite happy with downloading/updating the pot files using svn. If I see a changed pot file i run my own, rather simple script, to update the po files of my language. Later I use svn commit to update the po files on the server. Now, while 100% of lcn and yast has been translated, it is rather easy to keep it that way. I do not need a system like Vertaal to assist me.
On Mon, Aug 3, 2015 at 2:14 AM, Freek de Kruijf f.de.kruijf@gmail.com wrote:
I am quite happy with downloading/updating the pot files using svn. If I see a changed pot file i run my own, rather simple script, to update the po files of my language. Later I use svn commit to update the po files on the server. Now, while 100% of lcn and yast has been translated, it is rather easy to keep it that way. I do not need a system like Vertaal to assist me.
-- fr.gr.
Freek de Kruijf
Please help me understand. You do translations into which language? How does anyone who recently joined the openSUSE project know that 100% of lcn and yast will be taken care of by you? Does anyone review your work?
I know only idiomatic American English and I don't write that as well as I would like. Can I expect others to help me make the documents I write useful to new members of the community? And easily translated?
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On 2015-08-03 17:35, PatrickD Garvey wrote:
Please help me understand. You do translations into which language? How does anyone who recently joined the openSUSE project know that 100% of lcn and yast will be taken care of by you?
Why would you need to know who translates what? :-? Or did I misunderstood the question?
Does anyone review your work?
That depends on the particular language team.
Some are a single person affair, or two. They simply can't.
Some are very numerous, and can have people doing a verification pass of files.
But as rewards are scarce, they often tire out and stop verificating.
I know only idiomatic American English and I don't write that as well as I would like. Can I expect others to help me make the documents I write useful to new members of the community? And easily translated?
Well, the translator team, the one in the translation mail list, basically only translates software, not documentation, nor the wiki. As an exception, we translate important web pages on request, but we typically ask for the text to be given to us in a specific format we can handle (.pot files).
There is another team that translates the wiki. Possibly the people in both teams be the same, or not.
- -- Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)
On 2 August 2015 at 13:29, Carlos E. R. carlos.e.r@opensuse.org wrote:
Not the primary target - another target :-)
Agreed, but lets get one target right at a time.
Multi-Segment marketing is a complicated concept, and I would say it's unrealistic to expect openSUSE to be strong in that area with the contributors we currently have to do Marketing
Let's focus on "The Makers Choice" which, if it works out the way I envision it will, should still be suitably aligned that people from theses 'secondary targets' will still be attracted to openSUSE.
If those users that are ripe to jump boat from Windows, don't see openSUSE as a target, they will go to Ubuntu :-P
is that such a terrible thing?
I know that might sound weird, but my opinion is that we really should be spending more of time our time and effort on expanding openSUSE's _contributing users_
Not just developers, but all sorts of people who are likely to want to contribute to openSUSE
Is there really much benefit of trying to expand openSUSE's general userbase if we don't have a very strong contributor base to support it?
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On 2015-08-02 15:00, Richard Brown wrote:
Is there really much benefit of trying to expand openSUSE's general userbase if we don't have a very strong contributor base to support it?
Well, hardware makers could be enticed to provide machines with openSUSE already installed. Currently you can find them with Ubuntu, and SLED.
Or when we get a printer or whatever, and download software for it, the typical target and documentation is "Ubuntu". I would like to see openSUSE there.
This will only happen if we increase our user base.
And, some of those that come may eventually become contributors. With time. If they go to Ubuntu, they will not :-p
- -- Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)
On 2 August 2015 at 15:48, Carlos E. R. carlos.e.r@opensuse.org wrote:
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On 2015-08-02 15:00, Richard Brown wrote:
Is there really much benefit of trying to expand openSUSE's general userbase if we don't have a very strong contributor base to support it?
Well, hardware makers could be enticed to provide machines with openSUSE already installed. Currently you can find them with Ubuntu, and SLED.
The idea that users = preloaded machines from OEMs is a fallacy
OEM manufacturers are in the business of making money, and while they will make more money, more easily with Windows, then they'll keep shipping either Windows only
Ubuntu and SLED are small exceptions to that rule, but even then, look at the recent debacle with the Dell XPS 13, where Dell have removed the Ubuntu version from the shelves because they couldn't get it to work right
The only way openSUSE has any hope of becoming enticing to OEMs is if we're better, cleaner, and easier to do than 'the other guys' (be that Windows, or Ubuntu)
And in order to do that, we need things like easier installations for OEMs to work with (Premade install images instead of an installer? Better documentation for Kiwi? Better guides on how to use Kiwi+OBS?)
Dedicated teams to work with OEMs to improve the support for their hardware (Ubuntu have this, so did SUSE when they were pursuing OEM Pre-Loads with SLED)
Longer support lifecycles (something like..hmm..openSUSE Leap? ;) )
A clear vision for the kind of users they can expect their openSUSE pre-loaded hardware to appeal to (technical users - The Makers Choice)
and so on, and so forth
All of those things require openSUSE to have contributors to do them.. not non-contributing Users
a non-contributing user is often just a statistic which we may or may not choose to count and may or may not use to brag about when comparing ourselves with other distributions.. beyond that, while I love every single one of our users, they are not the reason I'm still here contributing to openSUSE 10 years after I started - that's actually the contributors, every single one of you who are reading this email..and more on that topic later.
Or when we get a printer or whatever, and download software for it, the typical target and documentation is "Ubuntu". I would like to see openSUSE there.
This will only happen if we increase our user base.
Wrong, this will only happen if we increase our appeal to developers. Do you know who decides supported platforms for most open source software? Developers.
When we are seen to be more interesting to them, they _will_ more often, more easily, and more obviously, provide clearer support for our distributions.
And, some of those that come may eventually become contributors. With time. If they go to Ubuntu, they will not :-p
I wish this was true, I really do, but experience has shown us that the story that growing users leads to a growth of contributors is just not true
It never has been, and I dont think it ever will. I think it's one of those collective myths many of us in open source like to tell ourselves because it sounds appealing.
In reality, you grow your contributor base by targeting people who want to contribute, giving them a reason to find your project interesting so they have a desire to contribute, and then giving them the tools and support to make it easy for them to do so.
You might target them and convert them from inside your userbase, you might target them and convert them from the big wide world, but if you don't go out and have a reason to appeal to people who will contribute, you won't find new contributors just because you have more users.
No one wakes up in the morning and thinks "I think I'll start working on open source today, I'll google the Project with the most users and go help them".
You have to have a 'hook', a reason to draw someone to your project and a reason for them to think openSUSE is the project that is worthy of their time, effort, and contributions.
I do believe that if we focus our marketing and efforts on appealing to contributors & 'users who are easy to convert into contributors', then we will see an increase in users beyond that narrow(ish..it's not really that narrow) target audience
Because lots of people *aspire* to be good technically
Lots of people want to understand technology, find open source interesting, and want to learn more and contribute back. They want to be 'Makers', even if they dont know how to be yet, and don't have the right tools.
And if openSUSE is seen as "The Makers Choice", the project with well engineered tools and operating systems which appeal to smart technical people, developers, sysadmins, power users, hackers, and such-like, then we will see people drawn to us, not because they ARE those things, but because they want to be.
People buy high end German cars like BMW, Mercedes-Benz and Audi, because they want to be seen to be advanced, successful, businesspeople with a good taste in high quality German engineering - even if the owner is not any of those things, that is what those brands stand for, and that's how they get customers.
I want to see openSUSE to appeal to people who want to be seen to be technically savvy types with a good taste in high quality engineering.
Let Ubuntu be the Ford, GM, Toyota and Chrysler of the Linux world, with their mass market appeal.
We can, and should be, something special for ourselves, our current users, and our future users.
Sorry Richard. I'm just a desktop user. I'm not a power user. There are plenty of openSUSE users who are not power users. We just want a stable and functional systems. Yes we can manage our systems most of the time. But we are not power users. I rarely use the CLI. I use YAST. I am not familiar with the intricacies of the CLI. I am not alone.
Richard. Don't toss us under the bus. We've been using opneSUSE for years and years.
Steven
On 2 August 2015 at 16:41, Steven Hess flamebait@gmail.com wrote:
Richard. Don't toss us under the bus. We've been using opneSUSE for years and years.
We're not going to throw you under the bus
We're not going to ask you to leave the bus
I'm just advocating that we stop advertising openSUSE in the virtual yellow pages of the Internet as "FREE BUS RIDES FOR ALL" and instead change the adverts to "BUS DRIVERS WANTED, no experience required, interest in bus driving or bus related technologies recommended"
Le 02/08/2015 16:21, Richard Brown a wrote :
We can, and should be, something special for ourselves, our current users, and our future users.
The sentence that end your post (quoted), do not say nothing about power user or makers (I like this sentence, begin it by "as a project")... I think people join a project to have they work spread to as many users as possible. The first time (well before joining openSUSE, it was in the 90's) than somebody asked me "can you host your docs in my web site", my answer was "why?" and he said: "to get more visibility and readers" and I went there.
http://www.linux-france.org/article/jdanield/
I stopped to contribute to the wiki when my work was destroyed by "wiki team" wanting to "make order". Removing *and deleting* the french forum confirmed I was right not to trust openSUSE for this. I now store my doc myself. One of the first thing I learned about the web is "do not ever delete a web page". Notice I'm not offended by that, I just regret to have lost some doc.
The word "marketing" is misleading, we should not use it at all. As you said, openSUSE do not make money (let SUSE do that), so have no market. We have to ask us how we can make people comfortable in the openSUSE project.
In the open source world, every body do exactly what he wants no what you (or me) want. People that interest us for the project are not developers, they will come if we give them interesting tools, that's all. You will never make ubuntu devs come in openSUSE with marketing arguments. they will open an OBS account, but continue work in ubuntu.
What we need are some people that accept to work in a *team* to make openSUSE "something special", following the goals of the project, not they own goal. I sincerely think that the only thing that can make people accept to work for non personal interest is to reach the larger audience possible.
"Come and work with us, working as part of the openSUSE project will make YOU part of something special, the openSUSE project..."
And, by the way, I'm of this sort and I will continue to work for the openSUSE project, as long as I think it's special :-)
thanks for your own work and the momentum you give to the project
jdd
On 2 Aug 2015 5:14 pm, "jdd" jdd@dodin.org wrote:
Le 02/08/2015 16:21, Richard Brown a wrote :
We can, and should be, something special for ourselves, our current users, and our future users.
The sentence that end your post (quoted), do not say nothing about power user or makers (I like this sentence, begin it by "as a project")... I think people join a project to have they work spread to as many users as possible.
You are entitled to your opinion, but there is plenty of research from respected experts on the topic who all state that motivations for joining open source projects are normally not altruistic, and are normally due to selfish reasons, like being able to scratch their own itch
http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-18419231
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open-source_movement#Motivations_of_Programmer...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cathedral_and_the_Bazaar
We are no longer in the 90's. Open Source and being free, open, accessible to anyone to contribute is no longer a new and shiny thing. Spreading the word to anyone and everyone made sense back then to find those few who were ideologically attuned to buy into the idea before the rest of the world
The year is 2015. Open source has established itself as A major, if not THE major way of developing software. We need to have a clear story to distinguish us from the millions of other open source projects pople can now contribute to. "We're special because we're openSUSE and we have users who make us special" just doesn't mean anything any more..I'm not sure it ever did..
The word "marketing" is misleading, we should not use it at all. As you said, openSUSE do not make money (let SUSE do that), so have no market. We have to ask us how we can make people comfortable in the openSUSE project.
Agreed. How about we agree to call this "Engagement" like the GNOME Project does instead of Marketing
What we need are some people that accept to work in a *team* to make openSUSE "something special", following the goals of the project, not they own goal.
I'm afraid I disagree on several levels.
For starters, see my earlier links. The major motivators for people to contribute to open source are primarily Selfish, not Altruistic.
Next, I do not believe working as part of a team appeals to everyone, and i think the Project should be structured in a way which encourages both individual contributions (working collaboratively, but not necessarily as part of a team) as well as more structured group work
The projects current focus with Teams is holding us back.
Too much time is spent 'forming teams', and not enough time is spent doing the thing the team needs to do.
We don't need a team of people to do *anything* - we need one person to _just start doing it_
If the problem requires a team to solve it, the team will form naturally once that one contributor has started
Less teams, more people doing things please
I sincerely think that the only thing that can make people accept to work for non personal interest is to reach the larger audience possible.
I sincerely disagree. Volunteers are only going to spend their time on things which also benefit them as well as the greater good.
We need to end this false belief that all, or even most, open source contributors are doing this for altruistic purposes.
We should accept that there are very real, very tangible, and often very selfish reasons people contribute to open source, and we should do our best to Engage with them so openSUSE becomes a natural focal point for those contributions which can help us grow and succeed
Aiding the wider world and a greater audience is a benefit, but not a reason, of doing what we do and the way we do it.
"Come and work with us, working as part of the openSUSE project will make YOU part of something special, the openSUSE project..."
Sorry, this sounds to much like "do stuff for the sake of doing stuff" - we've had such philosophy as our stated goal in openSUSE for 10 years and I think it's time we accept the world does not work that way.
And, by the way, I'm of this sort and I will continue to work for the openSUSE project, as long as I think it's special :-)
Good, and I hope you find reasons to think it's special beyond empty words. I know they sounds nice, but its really important openSUSE has real reasons upon which people are drawn to, use our stuff, and engage with our project.
On Sun, Aug 2, 2015 at 11:33 AM, Richard Brown RBrownCCB@opensuse.org wrote:
On 2 Aug 2015 5:14 pm, "jdd" jdd@dodin.org wrote:
Le 02/08/2015 16:21, Richard Brown a wrote :
We can, and should be, something special for ourselves, our current users, and our future users.
The sentence that end your post (quoted), do not say nothing about power user or makers (I like this sentence, begin it by "as a project")... I think people join a project to have they work spread to as many users as possible.
You are entitled to your opinion, but there is plenty of research from respected experts on the topic who all state that motivations for joining open source projects are normally not altruistic, and are normally due to selfish reasons, like being able to scratch their own itch
http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-18419231
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open-source_movement#Motivations_of_Programmer...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cathedral_and_the_Bazaar
We are no longer in the 90's. Open Source and being free, open, accessible to anyone to contribute is no longer a new and shiny thing. Spreading the word to anyone and everyone made sense back then to find those few who were ideologically attuned to buy into the idea before the rest of the world
The year is 2015. Open source has established itself as A major, if not THE major way of developing software. We need to have a clear story to distinguish us from the millions of other open source projects pople can now contribute to. "We're special because we're openSUSE and we have users who make us special" just doesn't mean anything any more..I'm not sure it ever did..
The word "marketing" is misleading, we should not use it at all. As you said, openSUSE do not make money (let SUSE do that), so have no market. We have to ask us how we can make people comfortable in the openSUSE project.
Agreed. How about we agree to call this "Engagement" like the GNOME Project does instead of Marketing
What we need are some people that accept to work in a *team* to make openSUSE "something special", following the goals of the project, not they own goal.
I'm afraid I disagree on several levels.
For starters, see my earlier links. The major motivators for people to contribute to open source are primarily Selfish, not Altruistic.
Next, I do not believe working as part of a team appeals to everyone, and i think the Project should be structured in a way which encourages both individual contributions (working collaboratively, but not necessarily as part of a team) as well as more structured group work
The projects current focus with Teams is holding us back.
Too much time is spent 'forming teams', and not enough time is spent doing the thing the team needs to do.
We don't need a team of people to do *anything* - we need one person to _just start doing it_
If the problem requires a team to solve it, the team will form naturally once that one contributor has started
Less teams, more people doing things please
I sincerely think that the only thing that can make people accept to work for non personal interest is to reach the larger audience possible.
I sincerely disagree. Volunteers are only going to spend their time on things which also benefit them as well as the greater good.
We need to end this false belief that all, or even most, open source contributors are doing this for altruistic purposes.
We should accept that there are very real, very tangible, and often very selfish reasons people contribute to open source, and we should do our best to Engage with them so openSUSE becomes a natural focal point for those contributions which can help us grow and succeed
Aiding the wider world and a greater audience is a benefit, but not a reason, of doing what we do and the way we do it.
"Come and work with us, working as part of the openSUSE project will make YOU part of something special, the openSUSE project..."
Sorry, this sounds to much like "do stuff for the sake of doing stuff"
- we've had such philosophy as our stated goal in openSUSE for 10
years and I think it's time we accept the world does not work that way.
And, by the way, I'm of this sort and I will continue to work for the openSUSE project, as long as I think it's special :-)
Good, and I hope you find reasons to think it's special beyond empty words. I know they sounds nice, but its really important openSUSE has real reasons upon which people are drawn to, use our stuff, and engage with our project. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Given that we are talking about project promotion or distribution promotion. The only thing so far that matches an effort on that end is the request to create backgrounds for the release of 42. What else are we looking to do with this push to entice this audience? I mean, we can discuss the benefits/drawbacks of what target audience we want to work with, but the fact is also that we have no concrete requests to get something done. If we mean graphical work, there has been 0 requests.
What or how are we looking to use to promote this focus on power users?
On 2 August 2015 at 19:41, Andy anditosan anditosan1000@gmail.com wrote:
Given that we are talking about project promotion or distribution promotion. The only thing so far that matches an effort on that end is the request to create backgrounds for the release of 42. What else are we looking to do with this push to entice this audience? I mean, we can discuss the benefits/drawbacks of what target audience we want to work with, but the fact is also that we have no concrete requests to get something done. If we mean graphical work, there has been 0 requests.
What or how are we looking to use to promote this focus on power users?
Hi Andi,
Artwork isn't the beginning and end of everything ;) But I do recall Douglas spelling out a pretty concrete list of at least 4 things needed for openSUSE Leap 42.1 for the artwork team to put together.
I wouldn't describe it as 'distribution promotion' more 'putting the distribution together', so I think you're a little OT, or I just dont understand your point, sorry
On Sun, Aug 2, 2015 at 11:52 AM, Richard Brown RBrownCCB@opensuse.org wrote:
On 2 August 2015 at 19:41, Andy anditosan anditosan1000@gmail.com wrote:
Given that we are talking about project promotion or distribution promotion. The only thing so far that matches an effort on that end is the request to create backgrounds for the release of 42. What else are we looking to do with this push to entice this audience? I mean, we can discuss the benefits/drawbacks of what target audience we want to work with, but the fact is also that we have no concrete requests to get something done. If we mean graphical work, there has been 0 requests.
What or how are we looking to use to promote this focus on power users?
Hi Andi,
Artwork isn't the beginning and end of everything ;) But I do recall Douglas spelling out a pretty concrete list of at least 4 things needed for openSUSE Leap 42.1 for the artwork team to put together.
I wouldn't describe it as 'distribution promotion' more 'putting the distribution together', so I think you're a little OT, or I just dont understand your point, sorry
Oh sorry, I just basically mean that we don't have anything to promote the new focus on power users as of right now.
On 2 August 2015 at 19:54, Andy anditosan anditosan1000@gmail.com wrote:
On Sun, Aug 2, 2015 at 11:52 AM, Richard Brown RBrownCCB@opensuse.org wrote:
On 2 August 2015 at 19:41, Andy anditosan anditosan1000@gmail.com wrote:
Given that we are talking about project promotion or distribution promotion. The only thing so far that matches an effort on that end is the request to create backgrounds for the release of 42. What else are we looking to do with this push to entice this audience? I mean, we can discuss the benefits/drawbacks of what target audience we want to work with, but the fact is also that we have no concrete requests to get something done. If we mean graphical work, there has been 0 requests.
What or how are we looking to use to promote this focus on power users?
Hi Andi,
Artwork isn't the beginning and end of everything ;) But I do recall Douglas spelling out a pretty concrete list of at least 4 things needed for openSUSE Leap 42.1 for the artwork team to put together.
I wouldn't describe it as 'distribution promotion' more 'putting the distribution together', so I think you're a little OT, or I just dont understand your point, sorry
Oh sorry, I just basically mean that we don't have anything to promote the new focus on power users as of right now.
http://cyntss.github.io/opensuse-landing-page/# is arguably the first step in that direction, though stuff like openSUSE Leap embodies some of the concepts as a natural side effect of what it's trying to achieve
Contribute and read more about the logic behind the new site here: https://github.com/cyntss/opensuse-landing-page
On Sun, Aug 2, 2015 at 10:58 AM, Richard Brown RBrownCCB@opensuse.org wrote:
On 2 August 2015 at 19:54, Andy anditosan anditosan1000@gmail.com wrote:
On Sun, Aug 2, 2015 at 11:52 AM, Richard Brown RBrownCCB@opensuse.org wrote:
On 2 August 2015 at 19:41, Andy anditosan anditosan1000@gmail.com wrote:
What or how are we looking to use to promote this focus on power users?
Hi Andi,
I wouldn't describe it as 'distribution promotion' more 'putting the distribution together', so I think you're a little OT, or I just dont understand your point, sorry
Oh sorry, I just basically mean that we don't have anything to promote the new focus on power users as of right now.
http://cyntss.github.io/opensuse-landing-page/# is arguably the first step in that direction, though stuff like openSUSE Leap embodies some of the concepts as a natural side effect of what it's trying to achieve
Contribute and read more about the logic behind the new site here: https://github.com/cyntss/opensuse-landing-page
So, once again, some people who contribute mightily to improve the accessibility of the openSUSE project, the translators, are told they must adopt a new workflow to continue to contribute, "Do you wanna contribute providing translation for the new openSUSE website?" This is the part of your "we need one person to _just start doing it_" theory that does not hold up. It's possible not even the Big Bang happened without an installed base. There was the wiki, which developed some support for translation, then there was https://activedoc.opensuse.org/ which didn't seem to ever acquire real support for translators and now a git based website with do-it-yourself translation, if any.
You know when your current workforce is treated as second-class citizens to the newcomers, no matter how shiny the new contribution is, it may lose the project some productivity.
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On 2015-08-03 02:18, PatrickD Garvey wrote:
Contribute and read more about the logic behind the new site here: https://github.com/cyntss/opensuse-landing-page
So, once again, some people who contribute mightily to improve the accessibility of the openSUSE project, the translators, are told they must adopt a new workflow to continue to contribute, "Do you wanna contribute providing translation for the new openSUSE website?" This is the part of your "we need one person to _just start doing it_" theory that does not hold up. It's possible not even the Big Bang happened without an installed base. There was the wiki, which
Well, we the translators said that it was not going to happen. So instead a proper .pot file was provided and we translated it to many languages, as .po files, the traditional way :-)
- -- Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R.
(from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith))
On Sun, Aug 2, 2015 at 5:36 PM, Carlos E. R. carlos.e.r@opensuse.org wrote:
On 2015-08-03 02:18, PatrickD Garvey wrote:
Contribute and read more about the logic behind the new site here: https://github.com/cyntss/opensuse-landing-page
So, once again, some people who contribute mightily to improve the accessibility of the openSUSE project, the translators, are told they must adopt a new workflow to continue to contribute, "Do you wanna contribute providing translation for the new openSUSE website?" This is the part of your "we need one person to _just start doing it_" theory that does not hold up. It's possible not even the Big Bang happened without an installed base. There was the wiki, which
Well, we the translators said that it was not going to happen. So instead a proper .pot file was provided and we translated it to many languages, as .po files, the traditional way :-)
Are you referring to how the wiki came to be translated, or how the new git-based web presence will be translated? I am most interested in your view of how the new site will be translated.
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On 2015-08-03 02:47, PatrickD Garvey wrote:
Are you referring to how the wiki came to be translated, or how the new git-based web presence will be translated? I am most interested in your view of how the new site will be translated.
I refer to how the landing page has been translated already.
The usual team of software translators, those in the opensuse translation mail list said that we could not translate it in the proposed manner. Instead, a method was found to extract the text to a .pot file using this info:
http://translate-toolkit.readthedocs.org/en/latest/commands/json2po.html
So we translated the page using our traditional methods :-)
If they create more json pages we can translate them fast in the same manner. They just need to drop the updated pot file into our svn. If it is a new file, tell us. If the file is changed, we automatically notice.
- -- Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R.
(from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith))
On Sun, Aug 2, 2015 at 6:09 PM, Carlos E. R. carlos.e.r@opensuse.org wrote:
On 2015-08-03 02:47, PatrickD Garvey wrote:
Are you referring to how the wiki came to be translated, or how the new git-based web presence will be translated? I am most interested in your view of how the new site will be translated.
I refer to how the landing page has been translated already.
The usual team of software translators, those in the opensuse translation mail list said that we could not translate it in the proposed manner. Instead, a method was found to extract the text to a .pot file using this info:
http://translate-toolkit.readthedocs.org/en/latest/commands/json2po.html
So we translated the page using our traditional methods :-)
If they create more json pages we can translate them fast in the same manner. They just need to drop the updated pot file into our svn. If it is a new file, tell us. If the file is changed, we automatically notice.
Thank you and the other translators for making the effort to keep translation a significant part of what makes openSUSE unique.
Hi,
On 02 Aug 2015, at 19:58, Richard Brown RBrownCCB@opensuse.org wrote:
On 2 August 2015 at 19:54, Andy anditosan anditosan1000@gmail.com wrote:
Oh sorry, I just basically mean that we don't have anything to promote the new focus on power users as of right now.
http://cyntss.github.io/opensuse-landing-page/# is arguably the first step in that direction, though stuff like openSUSE Leap embodies some of the concepts as a natural side effect of what it's trying to achieve
Contribute and read more about the logic behind the new site here: https://github.com/cyntss/opensuse-landing-page
Oh my… I wasn’t aware of this, and frankly this looks amazing ! Great work !
On Mon, Aug 3, 2015 at 2:09 AM, Vincent Moutoussamy vmoutoussamy@suse.com wrote:
On 02 Aug 2015, at 19:58, Richard Brown RBrownCCB@opensuse.org wrote:
http://cyntss.github.io/opensuse-landing-page/# is arguably the first step in that direction, though stuff like openSUSE Leap embodies some of the concepts as a natural side effect of what it's trying to achieve
Contribute and read more about the logic behind the new site here: https://github.com/cyntss/opensuse-landing-page
Oh my… I wasn’t aware of this, and frankly this looks amazing ! Great work !
Perhaps you can help me, I'm trying to figure out what I should follow to be well informed about the trajectory of the openSUSE project. Have you found a single best avenue of communication consistently used by the openSUSE project community to communicate what is happening within the project? The only postings I even vaguely remember about this new website have been Richard's postings here, on the opensuse-project mailing list. Where is the discussion of how this effort was proceeding? Was it all irc or person-to-person email? The result is great looking, but if the translators had to raise their collective hands to get adequate translation support, what other important subset of the community has not had the opportunity to influence the design?
On Sunday 02 August 2015 11:46:14 Richard Brown wrote:
There's lots of reasons, we're a diverse community, but I would say one over-arching theme that is true for the vast majority of us is "we make openSUSE to make & use better technology"
Technology is a factor, but I'm sure that for the vast majority of us it is even more important to do something which matters, not technology for the sake of technology. We do want openSUSE to be used by people, we do want it to be recognized as relevant, we do want it to be popular. Our ambition is not to be a player in a small niche, but one of the dominant Linux distributions.
Embracing these realities and focusing the marketing of openSUSE accordingly is the concept the Board calls "The Makers Choice"
I perceive this as a very limiting concept.
First thing is that it's confusing, because "maker" has a meaning coming from the maker movement. We could possibly address the maker movement, but I don't think we actually want to do this or would be in any particular good position to do so.
The second thing is that it excludes all people who wouldn't consider themselves as makers. There are so many people who are technically interested, but still mostly use and consume technology not make them themselves, or who wouldn't consider what they do as making, even if we would.
We do need to include passive users who are happy openSUSE users, but don't contribute yet.
I do agree that we shouldn't address everybody, and that a technical audience suits us well. But I think this should be much broader than "makers". We have our strengths in the middle-ground between the real technical enthusiasts and the mass market end user. We provide a distribution which is slick and polished and has nice technical tools, so that a broad number of people can use it. We do require a bit of technical understanding, but not too much. I think this is actually a pretty good position, which can reach a lot of people. Let's not waste it.
More *contributors* mean we can build more, build better and find more people to help is build even more, and build even better.
Popular, attractive, growing, visible, relevant projects get contributors, not projects who want to have contributors for the sake of contributing. I think it's actually really simple. Do something with matters to users and contributors will naturally come.
And that's fine, great, and I look forward to that day - but lets spend the majority of our time and effort focusing where we get the most benefit, which in my opinion really means embracing the concept of 'The Makers Choice' and using it as a strong guide to direct our marketing efforts for the next years.
This will drive us into a rathole of irrelevance where only few people will find us again. That's not where I want to be.
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On 2015-08-04 09:49, Cornelius Schumacher wrote:
I do agree that we shouldn't address everybody, and that a technical audience suits us well. But I think this should be much broader than "makers". We have our strengths in the middle-ground between the real technical enthusiasts and the mass market end user. We provide a distribution which is slick and polished and has nice technical tools, so that a broad number of people can use it. We do require a bit of technical understanding, but not too much. I think this is actually a pretty good position, which can reach a lot of people. Let's not waste it.
I agree :-)
- -- Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)
On Fri, 31 Jul 2015 14:06:43 +0200, Antoine Ginies wrote:
Microsoft is a partner in many project at SUSE (vmdp, UEFI etc...). So this is not a good idea to do that....
"Co-opetition" is still a thing. Just because there's a partnership doesn't mean we can't (and shouldn't) compete.
Jim
On Friday 31 of July 2015 15:44:01 Jim Henderson wrote:
On Fri, 31 Jul 2015 14:06:43 +0200, Antoine Ginies wrote:
Microsoft is a partner in many project at SUSE (vmdp, UEFI etc...). So this is not a good idea to do that....
"Co-opetition" is still a thing. Just because there's a partnership doesn't mean we can't (and shouldn't) compete.
Definitely. IBM is also our partner; does that stop us from competing with SLES against AIX? Sure, we shouldn't promote our product by saying "theirs is total crap" but, well, we shouldn't do so even if there was no partnership.
Michal Kubeček
Jim Henderson:
On Fri, 31 Jul 2015 14:06:43 +0200, Antoine Ginies wrote:
Microsoft is a partner in many project at SUSE (vmdp, UEFI etc...). So this is not a good idea to do that....
"Co-opetition" is still a thing. Just because there's a partnership doesn't mean we can't (and shouldn't) compete.
I am not against competition, i just mean when you collaborate with another company this is not really good to shoot on it. Marketing is very powerfull, every word has a meaning. I am not defending Microsoft and windows 10, i am just saying that SUSE's strategy is "customer first", and we need to do businness.
Jim
Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits
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Ginies:
Jim Henderson:
On Fri, 31 Jul 2015 14:06:43 +0200, Antoine Ginies wrote:
Microsoft is a partner in many project at SUSE (vmdp, UEFI etc...). So this is not a good idea to do that....
"Co-opetition" is still a thing. Just because there's a partnership doesn't mean we can't (and shouldn't) compete.
I am not against competition, i just mean when you collaborate with another company this is not really good to shoot on it. Marketing is very powerfull, every word has a meaning. I am not defending Microsoft and windows 10, i am just saying that SUSE's strategy is "customer first", and we need to do businness.
Of course openSUSE is another world, with different rules, i am not against doing some coparison with Microsoft Windows 10 OS, but from my POV we should not just shoot on Microsoft, this should be a constructive comparison, pointing and offering another solution. People using Windows will not switch to a Linux distribution just because of privacy. If it was the case Apple's guy will have already switch to Linux, which is not the case.
regards
Jim
Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits
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Am 31.07.2015 um 14:06 schrieb Antoine Ginies:
Microsoft is a partner in many project at SUSE (vmdp, UEFI etc...).
Crap.
VMDP drivers are one thing that if you have them loaded, Microsoft support will blame everything strange that happens on that VM on the VMDP drivers.
They are definitely not helping with them.
Been there, done that. I'm now fighting over 6 Months with Microsoft support on that topic.
And they are not helping with UEFI, they are actually pushing that crap into the industry in order to help their monopoly. The soone UEFI is gone, the better.
Stefan Seyfried:
Am 31.07.2015 um 14:06 schrieb Antoine Ginies:
Microsoft is a partner in many project at SUSE (vmdp, UEFI etc...).
Crap.
VMDP drivers are one thing that if you have them loaded, Microsoft support will blame everything strange that happens on that VM on the VMDP drivers.
They are definitely not helping with them.
Been there, done that. I'm now fighting over 6 Months with Microsoft support on that topic.
VMDP drivers are supported by SUSE, not by Microsoft. We do SVVP on them, and they are signed by Microsoft.
And they are not helping with UEFI, they are actually pushing that crap into the industry in order to help their monopoly. The soone UEFI is gone, the better.
They don't help us, but this was the only way to do.... And yes this is monopoly, but i don't think there is way to change that...
-- Stefan Seyfried
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled." -- Richard Feynman -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
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