On Tue, 08 Jun 2010 14:14:03 -0500, "Bryen M. Yunashko" wrote:

His original item was about what happens in the case of a possible sale. And it was a fair and legitimate question in my opinion, one that we quickly tried to reassure him that no changes were imminent. He then changed the discussion to a referendum against Novell for its dealings with Microsoft. These were two completely separate and unrelated topics.

They look related to me. But I'm not a crusader. You're overreacting to my comments.

Any arguments for independence are completely derailed when the very same person who says we need to be independent says he refuses to do anything to work towards that independence. It simply doesn't make sense.

Sure it does. Why would I invest time in a project that, from my vantage point, has an uncertain future? What I'm telling you is, if you want to attract outsiders, you folks who are already committed need more independence, to become more attractive to outsiders.

you can't have one and not the other. What I keep seeing over and over again around here is we put out lots of calls for help on this or that project and no one steps up, but everyone comments freely on broad discussions like this.

Talk is cheap and good help is hard to find. I'm not being sarcastic, it's a real problem. But if you expect to grow, you need to listen to opinions that originate from outside your clique.

There is always a risk of infrastructure "suddenly going away." Novell could do that, although AJ himself stated Novell will not do that (and thus this is unfounded conjecture to even bring it up), whoever buys Novell and continues to sponsor us could pull the plug. Or we could seek out sponsors of our own who donate their services to host our infrastructure, and then one day they could pull the plug. Or we could pay for our own infrastructure and host it on servers and our hosting service suddenly goes out of business without notice and *poof* one day our infrastructure is missing. That has happened to a lot of customers out there, as you know.

I don't expect Novell's sponsorship to disappear suddenly. But things are always changing, and competition in the tech world is brutal. Try to prepare for the worst, as much as you can.

The only argument is whether you consider independence to mean with or without Novell's partnership. I consider Novell's partnership to be vital.

Again, I'm not crusading against Novell. I don't care if the KGB sponsors opensuse. But try to emulate Debian's model, and separate the infrastructure from the sponsors. -- Web mail, POP3, and SMTP http://www.beewyz.com/freeaccounts.php -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Bryen M. Yunashko wrote:

On Tue, 2010-06-08 at 20:44 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:

...

I couldn't find a suitable place to add this in the running thread, so I'm starting this one

- whilst there seems to be lots of arguments against TrifleMeNots main arguments (possible sale, the MS deal etc),

His original item was about what happens in the case of a possible sale. And it was a fair and legitimate question in my opinion, one that we quickly tried to reassure him that no changes were imminent. He then changed the discussion to a referendum against Novell for its dealings with Microsoft. These were two completely separate and unrelated topics.

The topic was not changed, those were just the arguments. That's what I'm getting at - the initial pro-independence arguments were shot down or rendered invalid, but I didn't see many offering opinions on the independence itself. I didn't see you offering a shout of support either.

We are an upstream project for Novell. We are not the product of Novell. Even if we split away one hundred percent away from Novell and said "No thank you, we never want to talk to you again... goodbye!" Novell would still use us as upstream basis for their SLE products. And people around the world won't make the distinction that we're independent as long as Novell uses our creations. So it becomes moot.

If it's a moot point, quite a few people have wasted a lot of words arguing against it.

...

as far as I can tell, no-one has actually argued against the independence in itself.

No one is arguing against self-reliance. Self-reliance and independence are a different topic than split from Novell. We can still be sponsored by Novell and be independent. In fact we gave several points about how we, as a Project, have worked towards this self-reliance in the last year. Maybe you missed that part of the thread?

Yes, I may have, but as I am a part of the community, I have presumably been kept well aware of your efforts.

But in any case, if we want more independence, we need to learn to walk the walk. More in the community need to step up and do. It's as simple as that.

That is the usual song that we (the community) often get. To be honest, it gets quite tiring, even annoying. It is not the way to win over people, IMHO - in particularly not when it comes from Novell community members. People will contribute when and as best they can - whining about the community not pulling their weight is not the way to convince/coerce them into doing something. Over the last ten years I have contributed to/participated in a number of open source projects, but being asked "to step up to the plate" was never the reason.

It simply doesn't make sense. you can't have one and not the other. What I keep seeing over and over again around here is we put out lots of calls for help on this or that project and no one steps up, but everyone comments freely on broad discussions like this.

Bryen, that ought to make you, as an openSUSE board member, wonder what it is we are doing wrong.

...

Whether or not that is a real risk or not, being more independent wouldn't be that bad, would it? Seeking infrastructure contributions could even go quite well with a strategy of attracting more developers and contributors (if that is the strategy).

So again, to summarize, there is no argument against independence because we're already working towards that.

I'm not at all convinced that that has been very well communicated (if at all) to the community at large. Especially not considering the "enthusiasm" TrifleMeNots initial question of "And what else needs to be done for opensuse to gain full independence?" was met with. /Per Jessen, Zürich -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Tuesday 08 June 2010 21:53:06 Per Jessen wrote:

Bryen M. Yunashko wrote:

...

On Tue, 2010-06-08 at 20:44 +0200, Per Jessen wrote: [...] But in any case, if we want more independence, we need to learn to walk the walk. More in the community need to step up and do. It's as simple as that.

That is the usual song that we (the community) often get. To be honest, it gets quite tiring, even annoying. It is not the way to win over people, IMHO - in particularly not when it comes from Novell community members. People will contribute when and as best they can - whining about the community not pulling their weight is not the way to convince/coerce them into doing something. Over the last ten years I have contributed to/participated in a number of open source projects, but being asked "to step up to the plate" was never the reason.

I wholeheartedly agree. I have my own little theory about this ^^ The thing is that for a long time, and I believe that all long time contributors to S.u.S.E./SuSE/openSUSE can relate to that, the doors of deep contribution were closed. Then openSUSE started, and at first, the community members working for Novell, as well as Novell itself, were lagging behind the expectations "we" (outside of Novell) had. Finally! our favourite distro as a proper open project! yay! At least, I know for myself, that I was very eager for stuff to open up and be able to participate a lot deeper into the whole thing than what was possible before. And we couldn't wait for it. And it took time (which is obvious, when you think about it). Nowadays the situation -- in my very own and humble opinion -- is a bit of the opposite: a lot of things have been opened up and are waiting for more contributors, but, and here's the interesting part: * we're usually not aware of it, because we literally suck at communication (as a better word for "marketing"), pretty much all of us (yes, me too) * we haven't been mentored. There has been some sort of fast forward, without taking the time and resources to actively support us community members (mostly the non-Novell- employees in this case, but not exclusively) to be prepared and able to do the job. But I'm not blaming anyone, it's next to impossible to have a precise plan for perfect success in such situations. All that, and as said, it's just my very personal opinion which isn't worth anything more than that, to say: yes, indeed, it is not quite appropriate to say that we should "step up to the plate". [...] cheers -- -o) Pascal Bleser /\\ http://opensuse.org -- I took the green pill _\_v FOSDEM::6+7 Feb 2010, Brussels, http://fosdem.org

Pascal Bleser wrote:

On Tuesday 08 June 2010 21:53:06 Per Jessen wrote:

...

Bryen M. Yunashko wrote:

...

On Tue, 2010-06-08 at 20:44 +0200, Per Jessen wrote: [...] But in any case, if we want more independence, we need to learn to walk the walk. More in the community need to step up and do. It's as simple as that.

That is the usual song that we (the community) often get. To be honest, it gets quite tiring, even annoying. It is not the way to win over people, IMHO - in particularly not when it comes from Novell community members. People will contribute when and as best they can - whining about the community not pulling their weight is not the way to convince/coerce them into doing something. Over the last ten years I have contributed to/participated in a number of open source projects, but being asked "to step up to the plate" was never the reason.

I wholeheartedly agree.

Thank you Pascal. I am quite saddened that it took nine days for anyone to pick up on that posting. Unfortunately it says a lot about the community.

I have my own little theory about this ^^

The thing is that for a long time, and I believe that all long time contributors to S.u.S.E./SuSE/openSUSE can relate to that, the doors of deep contribution were closed.

Yes.

Then openSUSE started, and at first, the community members working for Novell, as well as Novell itself, were lagging behind the expectations "we" (outside of Novell) had. Finally! our favourite distro as a proper open project! yay!

Personally I had moved on and had long since started working on other OS projects - by 2004, I had also started running my own business, so being able to contribute to my favourite distro had to take a lower priority.

At least, I know for myself, that I was very eager for stuff to open up and be able to participate a lot deeper into the whole thing than what was possible before. And we couldn't wait for it. And it took time (which is obvious, when you think about it).

Nowadays the situation -- in my very own and humble opinion -- is a bit of the opposite: a lot of things have been opened up and are waiting for more contributors, but, and here's the interesting part: * we're usually not aware of it, because we literally suck at communication (as a better word for "marketing"), pretty much all of us (yes, me too) * we haven't been mentored.

There has been some sort of fast forward, without taking the time and resources to actively support us community members (mostly the non-Novell- employees in this case, but not exclusively) to be prepared and able to do the job. But I'm not blaming anyone, it's next to impossible to have a precise plan for perfect success in such situations.

Well, the strategy that Novell has been pursuing wrt openSUSE, is IMHO, "let's throw the baby in the water and see if it swims". Perhaps we're now getting a chance to rectify that.

All that, and as said, it's just my very personal opinion which isn't worth anything more than that, to say: yes, indeed, it is not quite appropriate to say that we should "step up to the plate".

Amen. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (14.3°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Saturday 19 June 2010 00:51:48 Gerald Pfeifer wrote:

On Thu, 17 Jun 2010, Per Jessen wrote:

...

Well, the strategy that Novell has been pursuing wrt openSUSE, is IMHO, "let's throw the baby in the water and see if it swims".

I beg to disagree. Looking at how much Novell is investing into openSUSE this analogy just is not right. If anything, we jointly want to grow openSUSE (which is far from a baby ;-) and see it develop, and as appropriate float, dive, or fly elegantly. :-)

It certainly wasn't as extreme as Per wrote, by any means (at least IMHO), but there is something to that nevertheless. It wasn't intentional, but as things went, and as I explained in my previous post on the thread, there wasn't much of a mentoring (or call it "hand- holding") to prepare especially the non-novell-employee-part-of-the-community to take a more active role in certain domains (such as helping out with maintenance, maintaining factory, with security, testing, build service development, YaST2 development, etc...). Maybe I'm wrong on certain of those items (I know that we planned some sort of team building and mentoring for maintenance, we discussed it around a table at the last openSUSE conference with Dirk ;D), but I'm sure of at least a few of them. No blame nor harsh feelings intended. In hindsight, there was a bit of a lack of process and organised training/handholding/mentoring in order to gain more contributors in certain areas. One cannot just say it's open for contributors and "throw" it out without taking care of many other things (documentation, architecture description, being available (a lot), organise hacking sessions, or even start out the whole project in an open discussion and process). Which is why I wrote that it's really unfair to say that "the community must step up to the plate". (and, of course, it's always easier to see what should/could have been done better in hindsight, which is why no one is to blame :))

...

Perhaps we're now getting a chance to rectify that. What do you have in mind?

I think we're starting to see more motivation to actively and realistically do something to find and involve more contributors in certain areas. Most of those are still just merely starting to form, but I think we're going to get there. Maybe that's what Per meant :) cheers -- -o) Pascal Bleser /\\ http://opensuse.org -- I took the green pill _\_v FOSDEM::6+7 Feb 2010, Brussels, http://fosdem.org

Aloha, On Saturday 19 June 2010 00:51:48 Dr. Gerald Pfeifer wrote (shortened):

I beg to disagree. Looking at how much Novell is investing into openSUSE this analogy just is not right. If anything, we jointly want to grow openSUSE (which is far from a baby ;-) and see it develop, and as appropriate float, dive, or fly elegantly. :-)

I hope you dont mind that you will be called Alice from now on. I also hope you sell cards to your wonderland or tell us how to get the drugs that Novell uses to make you write such statements. If Novell is so eager to push openSUSE how do you explain that the product and suport is done by open-slx. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Gerald Pfeifer wrote:

On Thu, 17 Jun 2010, Per Jessen wrote:

...

Well, the strategy that Novell has been pursuing wrt openSUSE, is IMHO, "let's throw the baby in the water and see if it swims".

I beg to disagree. Looking at how much Novell is investing into openSUSE this analogy just is not right. If anything, we jointly want to grow openSUSE (which is far from a baby ;-) and see it develop, and as appropriate float, dive, or fly elegantly. :-)

Haha, yes - I should have said "the strategy as far as it has been visible to the public/project members".

...

Perhaps we're now getting a chance to rectify that.

What do you have in mind?

I really like the ongoing strategy discussion - I wasn't sure what to expect, but what I've seen so far is a Good Thing(r). It is clearly engaging, which is by far the most important. /Per -- Per Jessen, Zürich (11.4°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Am Mittwoch, 9. Juni 2010, 10:43:23 schrieb Andreas Jaeger:

On Tuesday 08 June 2010 20:44:27 Per Jessen wrote:

...

I couldn't find a suitable place to add this in the running thread, so I'm starting this one

- whilst there seems to be lots of arguments against TrifleMeNots main arguments (possible sale, the MS deal etc), as far as I can tell, no-one has actually argued against the independence in itself. It seems to me that TrifleMeNot has a point - IF the current infrastructure DID suddenly go away, we would have a very serious issue. Whether or not that is a real risk or not, being more independent wouldn't be that bad, would it? Seeking infrastructure contributions could even go quite well with a strategy of attracting more developers and contributors (if that is the strategy).

Per,

let me rephrase what I said in this thread with other words.

openSUSE will always depend on somebody to sponsor infrastructure. It would be great if there would not be one major sponsor and if that one goes away, the whole project would be in jeopardy.

Sponsorship like we need for the openSUSE build service is not that easy but we're not bad: we have 20+ machines and that hardware got sponsored by AMD. We have sponsored bandwidth for the machines. And Novell sponsors the datacenter, meaning space, power, cooling and administration for the Build Service - and also for many other systems.

The crucial part about independence is not the data center sponsorship by Novell. The crucial part is sponsoring a lot of developers to make openSUSE successful.

In the past you had to be a Novell employee to make certain things happen. We changed all of that - and if there's still a place where Novell employees are in charge it's mainly because of nobody stepping up to do it instead of Novell controlling it. There are a few places where that contribution is not possible today, e.g. proper handling of feature requests, and we work actively on removing those barriers.

Hm I don't really buy into that, I understand Novell has no problem of the community taking openSUSE where they want to, but they sure don't want their own people to do what they want all the time, so Novell is steering openSUSE through the people working on it. This is totally fine for me, someone who contributes alot to openSUSE is in charge of his part and thus controls the way openSUSE is headed, maybe alot of the critcism can be eliminated with beeing more truthful in the direction that Novell also wants a reward on their contribution to openSUSE. Novell isn't charity, but in some statements that looks like it wants to be just that. I think we all know and accept open source couldn't succeed with someone paying bills around it.

So, independence has two facets: * independence from the money of Novell * independence from the control of Novell

I'm convinced that the majority of the community does not want independence from the money of Novell. For example every ambassador ask for goodies from Novell for their local events. Yes, we want more money to grow openSUSE - and that's what has been said is why the openSUSE Board works on an openSUSE foundation.

Independence from the control of Novell is something the project has already - it just has to grab it. And that's the discussion IMO that we should have - on how to grab it. We have now people part of our server administration team that are not Novell employees, we have with Bryen an openSUSE marketing lead that is not a Novell employee etc. As part of the marketing team lead by Bryen I do right now the openSUSE Build Service announcements. And that kind of self-reliance and independence where Novell is part of the community - and where contribution and not money roles - is the one the project is moving towards,

I guess everybody has his aims in contributing to openSUSE, or any other project, and they do it for a reason, what's Novells reason? Most non-employed people do it for their satisfaction, be it shaping something, improving his own experience, helping others etc etc. But I don't remember any public statement what Novell expects from it's support for openSUSE, except what reads like general charity. I can think of alot out of my head, be it gaining expertise, having a good testbase for future products, improving future products through external contributions, earning a good reputation as opensource contributor, providing interesting work topics for employees, etc. http://en.opensuse.org/Frequently_Asked_Questions#What_is_the_relationship_o... tries to shortly address this, btw also stating 'Novell [...] retains ultimate responsibility for the project.' The entry states it's the base for SLE, that's it, well this obviously contradicts the wish for a totally independent community as it might create something that just won't sell as SLE ;-) Regards, Karsten -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Oddball schreef:

This is part of the reason why oS should profile herself into the Foundation.

oS will/can be the 'owner' of the software 'it' produces, and decide whetter to sell what to who, or not. -- Enjoy your time around, Oddball, aka M9. OS: Linux 2.6.27.19-3.2-default x86_64 Huidige gebruiker: oddball@AMD64x2-sfn1 Systeem: openSUSE 11.1 (x86_64) KDE: 4.2.1 (KDE 4.2.1) "release 103" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

...

...

On 06/09/2010 at 1:10 PM, Oddball wrote: Oddball schreef:

This is part of the reason why oS should profile herself into the Foundation.

oS will/can be the 'owner' of the software 'it' produces, and decide whetter to sell what to who, or not.

Wrong: as long as we produce a GPL product, we do have NO influence what so-ever who uses, sells, modifies or does whatever else they want with it. So SLE can still be derived from it and being sold... Dominique -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

El 09/06/10 08:30, Oddball escribió:

oS can sell her distributions herself, via a 'store' or distributor, and make the gains profitable to the goals that are set in the foundation.

The problem is, selling the distribution boxes have never been profitable enough to keep openSUSE running. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Malcolm schreef:

On Wed, 09 Jun 2010 09:17:50 -0400 Cristian Rodríguez wrote:

...

The problem is, selling the distribution boxes have never been profitable enough to keep openSUSE running.

Hi Sell an add-on fluendo codec bundle and dvd player?

This is just one of many good ideas to work out.. Sell usb-sticks with oS installed on it, and a beautifull chameleon printed on one side... etc etc. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Le 09/06/2010 18:50, Malcolm a écrit :

...

This is just one of many good ideas to work out.. Sell usb-sticks with oS installed on it, and a beautifull chameleon printed on one side... etc etc.

From the amount of USB install queries we get in the forums, I think those would probably sell better than DVD's at the moment...

+1 many ather distros do jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://www.facebook.com/pages/I-support-the-Linux-Documentation-Project/3720... http://www.facebook.com/pages/The-fan-page-of-Claire-Dodin/106485119372062?v... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Alberto Passalacqua schreef:

2010/6/9 Oddball :

...

This is just one of many good ideas to work out.. Sell usb-sticks with oS installed on it, and a beautifull chameleon printed on one side... etc etc.

Hmm... also the Geeko plushes! (yes, I'm still trying to find a good one!)

Seriously, it is hard to make all the money needed to run the openSUSE project just selling boxes and gadgets. What keeps Linux companies up are support services and "added value" in terms of software (see JBoss for RH for example).

Best, A.

That is also obvious, but with more spreading of the word, more costumers will come, also those who want their companies completely staffed out with oS, and rely on the service that stands for 24/7 operational capacity.. But you have to start small, and very carefull, make as little mistakes as possible, and plan ahead. -- Enjoy your time around, Oddball, aka M9. OS: Linux 2.6.27.19-3.2-default x86_64 Huidige gebruiker: oddball@AMD64x2-sfn1 Systeem: openSUSE 11.1 (x86_64) KDE: 4.2.1 (KDE 4.2.1) "release 103" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Greg Freemyer schreef:

I've sort of lost track of where this thread is going, but to seriously consider OpenSuse as a standalone project without major input/resources from SLE seems to me to be a dead-end. I suppose in the long run one could argue that OpenSuse should develop its own SLE like solution and support structure, but I see no advantage in it.

As to the Novell association, I'm indifferent. It's been years since the MS contract and its time to just quit worrying about it from my perspective. There will always be those few that feel it tarnishes opensuse, but I really think that is the minority at this point and in general people are ready to re-evaluate their opinion of suse.

fyi:

Currently as a OpenSuse team member I feel good when I see kernel developers, userspace project team members etc with a suse.de address.

It may not seem like much to the casual user, but to me its a big deal to see that because I know that suse is contributing back to the community in a major way. And at least in the projects I look at I see a lot more suse support than redhat.

IIRC, when I became a opensuse team member I was given a email address of some kind, but I don't recall being encouraged to use it and I never have.

Assuming I recall correctly and the email address identifies me as identified with opensuse, simple things like encouraging its use by team members is a form of free and subtle marketing that I think can go a long way in making the overall community appreciate how much the suse team contributes.

Greg

Hi Greg, In and around oS the urge and need is felt for a clear point of vieuw. As with the law of gravity, someones opinion does not change a thing about it: everything you throw up, except a healthy bird, will come down again. To keep developers as yourself able to do your job, sometimes, changes have to be made in order to sustain that. The developers themselves should not have to worry about it: Just do what they do best, and enjoy it. openSUSES growth has reached the point where 'maturity' lingers. As all children that grow up, they want to have a place and opinion of their own. Still they keep a warm place in the hart of their parents.... as this is just the way things go.. The own identity becomes more impportant, as the need and urge to receive their own friends. For some reason the fathers house may not be the right spot for this. As all children also here the need is felt to earn 'own' money, nothing wrong with that. Discouraging here is not the right way. Encouraging to experience what is needed to be able to be selfsustaining is a good thing. The parents will not let their children down, if they not immediately succeed in their efforts, but praise them for their efforts, and say: nothing is easy, all beginning is difficult but: determination and preserverence will eneveteble lead to the goal.. Maybe you think wtf is he blattering about, but that doesn't matter either... Things are set in motion and will not be stopped here.. If everybody involved does what he/she does best, keeps confidence and determined, preserverence will lead to the goal. -- Enjoy your time around, Oddball, aka M9. OS: Linux 2.6.27.19-3.2-default x86_64 Huidige gebruiker: oddball@AMD64x2-sfn1 Systeem: openSUSE 11.1 (x86_64) KDE: 4.2.1 (KDE 4.2.1) "release 103" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Wednesday 09 June 2010 20:26:37 Greg Freemyer wrote: [...]

IIRC, when I became a opensuse team member I was given a email address of some kind, but I don't recall being encouraged to use it and I never have.

Assuming I recall correctly and the email address identifies me as identified with opensuse, simple things like encouraging its use by team members is a form of free and subtle marketing that I think can go a long way in making the overall community appreciate how much the suse team contributes.

Greg, that was (and still is) precisely the idea behind the @opensuse.org email addresses ;) (I was the one pushing for that, initially, quite some time ago) And also the fact that implicitly or explicitly, someone with an @opensuse.org email address is seen as having some sort of responsibility in the project. Which is why we don't just give them around to everyone, but only to the openSUSE Members: our contributors. cheers -- -o) Pascal Bleser /\\ http://opensuse.org -- I took the green pill _\_v FOSDEM::6+7 Feb 2010, Brussels, http://fosdem.org

On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 4:31 PM, Greg Freemyer wrote:

On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 3:47 PM, Pascal Bleser wrote:

...

On Wednesday 09 June 2010 20:26:37 Greg Freemyer wrote: [...]

...

IIRC, when I became a opensuse team member I was given a email address of some kind, but I don't recall being encouraged to use it and I never have.

Assuming I recall correctly and the email address identifies me as identified with opensuse, simple things like encouraging its use by team members is a form of free and subtle marketing that I think can go a long way in making the overall community appreciate how much the suse team contributes.

Greg, that was (and still is) precisely the idea behind the @opensuse.org email addresses ;) (I was the one pushing for that, initially, quite some time ago)

And also the fact that implicitly or explicitly, someone with an @opensuse.org email address is seen as having some sort of responsibility in the project. Which is why we don't just give them around to everyone, but only to the openSUSE Members: our contributors.

cheers --  -o) Pascal Bleser

Pascal (or other),

How do I find out what my @opensuse.org email address is.

I guessed at a couple and sent them emails, but nothing showed up in my normal inbox (as it should per the wiki.), nor my spam box.

I also looked at http://en.opensuse.org/Special:Preferences and don't see it shown to me.

I like the idea, but it needs a little more visibility I think.

Greg

Actually one of my guesses worked, it just pushed into a subfolder because of a filter I have and I missed. Still seems the preferences page should show it. Thanks Greg -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Hi again

It's currently configured via users.opensuse.org but nobody can change it besides the admins ;-(

We need to overhaul users.o.o - one suggestion is to build up a new system that allow changing your forwarding address as well,

+1 should perhaps go to connect Greets Marcus -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Cristian Rodríguez schreef:

El 09/06/10 08:30, Oddball escribió:

...

oS can sell her distributions herself, via a 'store' or distributor, and make the gains profitable to the goals that are set in the foundation.

The problem is, selling the distribution boxes have never been profitable enough to keep openSUSE running.

That i understand. It would be quite possible that this would change. The effort of becoming independant is highly appreciated, that costs are higher is logical. Merchandise kan bring money, when distributede the right way: Go to the people and confront them at fairs etc. Volunteers come in handy here. If the distro is the best on the market, and accessible for most people, it will become popular again when the dust has settled.

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On 9 June 2010 18:29, Alberto Passalacqua wrote:

2010/6/9 Oddball :

...

That i understand. It would be quite possible that this would change. The effort of becoming independant is highly appreciated, that costs are higher is logical. Merchandise kan bring money, when distributede the right way: Go to the people and confront them at fairs etc. Volunteers come in handy here. If the distro is the best on the market, and accessible for most people, it will become popular again when the dust has settled.

You talk as if openSUSE wasn't popular ;-)

However, being the best distribution does not change anything. SuSE was the best distribution for a long time, it offered (and still does) ease of use and integration that the leading distribution (Red Hat, Canonical) do not offer (very far from that), but it did not work.

Having a good product is one part of the game, distributing it is another part, but they're not enough. As Canonical teaches, a good marketing campaign can do better than product quality, unfortunately.

You're so right :-( . That's why we need to communicate. It's not sufficient to talk about independence. We need to find ways to interest people. We need to have loud voices outside these mailing lists. I think zonker has been part of this process. I hope we'll find other ways. Greetings, Agemen. -- OrbisGIS supporter. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Wednesday 09 June 2010 12:49:44 Administrator wrote:

How could openSuSE attract good marketers to contribute their skills to improving the attractiveness of the product?

Sell it as comprehensive firewall and antivirus solution, the price tag is similar :) -- Regards Rajko, -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Wednesday 09 June 2010 19:49:44 Administrator wrote:

[...] How could openSuSE attract good marketers to contribute their skills to improving the attractiveness of the product?

If anybody likes to help with marketing openSUSE, please join us on the opensuse-marketing mailing list. Btw. one part of marketing is a consistent message - and that message includes the spelling of our project, it's openSUSE - not OpenSUSE, not openSuSE, not OpenSuse... There's only one openSUSE ;) Cheers, Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, Program Manager openSUSE, aj@{novell.com,opensuse.org} Twitter: jaegerandi | Identica: jaegerandi SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126

Alberto Passalacqua wrote:

Having a good product is one part of the game, distributing it is another part, but they're not enough. As Canonical teaches, a good marketing campaign can do better than product quality, unfortunately.

Canonical can't claim originality, Microsoft was way ahead of them on that one. /Per Jessen, Zürich -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Wednesday 09 June 2010 14:17:36 Karsten König wrote:

[...] I guess everybody has his aims in contributing to openSUSE, or any other project, and they do it for a reason, what's Novells reason? Most non-employed people do it for their satisfaction, be it shaping something, improving his own experience, helping others etc etc. But I don't remember any public statement what Novell expects from it's support for openSUSE, except what reads like general charity. I can think of alot out of my head, be it gaining expertise, having a good testbase for future products, improving future products through external contributions, earning a good reputation as opensource contributor, providing interesting work topics for employees, etc.

That's a pretty good list, it includes the items that I normally say when asked - and what you say below regarding SLE is also important and is on my list.

http://en.opensuse.org/Frequently_Asked_Questions#What_is_the_relationship_ of_the_openSUSE_project_to_Novell.3F tries to shortly address this, btw also stating 'Novell [...] retains ultimate responsibility for the project.' The entry states it's the base for SLE, that's it, well this obviously contradicts the wish for a totally independent community as it might create something that just won't sell as SLE ;-)

We had some discussion about that inside Novell, so let me summarize this: openSUSE is the base for SLE - and if the openSUSE distribution goes into a direction that is not suitable for SLE, then Novell needs to make changes on top of openSUSE as part of working on SLE. For sure, a win-win would be if no such changes occur and everything can be taken as is but this is not going to happen. If we as openSUSE project want to make some different decisions which are the right decisions for openSUSE and not for SLE, so be it. Note that in the past we did already some things differently for openSUSE than for SLE, like the installation workflow which is slightly different between openSUSE and SLE. I want to see development happen in openSUSE that is relevant for SLE but I do not want to see again a disaster happen like the zmd story - meaning, development for SLE is fine as long as it does not break openSUSE. Does that help? Should I try to make at some time an more official looking statement off Novell's view of openSUSE? Btw. does any of you know about similar statements from Red Hat for Fedora or Canonical for Ubuntu? Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, Program Manager openSUSE, aj@{novell.com,opensuse.org} Twitter: jaegerandi | Identica: jaegerandi SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126

On Wed, 9 Jun 2010 13:06:20 +0200, Andreas Jaeger wrote:

On Wednesday 09 June 2010 14:17:36 Karsten König wrote:

...

The entry states it's the base for SLE, that's it, well this obviously contradicts the wish for a totally independent community as it might create something that just won't sell as SLE ;-)

If we as openSUSE project want to make some different decisions which are the right decisions for openSUSE and not for SLE, so be it.

That politically correct policy statement is good marketing speak, but in practice, decisions will be dominated by devs who have a conflict of interest, namely their Novell salary. That's no different from Fedora or Ubuntu, so I'm not saying it's evil, but let's stop pretending, and admit that opensuse is more of a Novell marketing tool than a real community. People are not stupid, they can see that. What incentive does anyone have to volunteer their time for free, while Novell devs earn nice salaries and live the good life? Very little incentive, it seems to me. The project would have more appeal if the infrastructure were fully separated from the sponsors. Then the community could fork the project if bad things happen in the future. There is too much uncertainty surrounding Novell; a potentially dead project is not a good investment of my time. Until that changes, good volunteers will be hard to find. -- Web mail, POP3, and SMTP http://www.beewyz.com/freeaccounts.php -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Wed, 9 Jun 2010 14:33:22 +0200, Stephan Kulow wrote:

Am Mittwoch 09 Juni 2010 schrieb Trifle Menot:

...

see that. What incentive does anyone have to volunteer their time for free, while Novell devs earn nice salaries and live the good life?

And your lack of understanding this question is the basic problem you have I'm afraid.

Is your psychiatric advice free, or do you charge for it?

And even then, Novell would pay developers to work on openSUSE as it currently does pay developers to work on the kernel - and these developers can still decide on their own (or Novell's) base what to work on. And then your argument that openSUSE isn't independent of Novell would still hold IMO - so the whole stunt was for nothing.

Some Novell employees seem to treat opensuse politics as Novell vs. "the enemy." But who is the enemy? -- Web mail, POP3, and SMTP http://www.beewyz.com/freeaccounts.php -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Am Mittwoch, 9. Juni 2010, 13:06:20 schrieb Andreas Jaeger: <snip>

...

http://en.opensuse.org/Frequently_Asked_Questions#What_is_the_relationshi p_ of_the_openSUSE_project_to_Novell.3F tries to shortly address this, btw also stating 'Novell [...] retains ultimate responsibility for the project.' The entry states it's the base for SLE, that's it, well this obviously contradicts the wish for a totally independent community as it might create something that just won't sell as SLE ;-)

We had some discussion about that inside Novell, so let me summarize this: openSUSE is the base for SLE - and if the openSUSE distribution goes into a direction that is not suitable for SLE, then Novell needs to make changes on top of openSUSE as part of working on SLE. For sure, a win-win would be if no such changes occur and everything can be taken as is but this is not going to happen. If we as openSUSE project want to make some different decisions which are the right decisions for openSUSE and not for SLE, so be it.

Note that in the past we did already some things differently for openSUSE than for SLE, like the installation workflow which is slightly different between openSUSE and SLE.

I want to see development happen in openSUSE that is relevant for SLE but I do not want to see again a disaster happen like the zmd story - meaning, development for SLE is fine as long as it does not break openSUSE.

Does that help? Should I try to make at some time an more official looking statement off Novell's view of openSUSE?

Yes it does help, this is both honest, open and reassuring about Novells ideas of openSUSE. A statement like this might make Novell appear less like an unpredictable giant without clear intentions, I think alot of the preconceptions of Novell are false but that might get some people thinking about their opinion again. Still no rush only because of someone coming here to questioning everyone and everything

Btw. does any of you know about similar statements from Red Hat for Fedora or Canonical for Ubuntu?

Canonical - Ubuntu http://www.ubuntu.com/project/canonical-and-ubuntu Ubuntu - Debian http://www.ubuntu.com/community/ubuntu-and-debian For Canonical their community distribution is their enterprise distribution, so they basicly create a free product with a community they want to sell support for, abit further thinking might place debian at the place openSUSE is for SLE, but I think this is unrespectful about the incredible work the debian community pulls of. Canonical/Ubuntu currently tries to better credit Debian, also Canonical considers itself leader of Ubuntu, imho their reputation is well earned... https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/RHEL https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Red_Hat_contributions Not very detailed except Fedora beeing upstream for RHEL For Fedora and RedHat I think it's basicly the same as openSUSE to Novell about gained expertise, testbed etc. Still RedHat as a company seems more of a grey eminance and has a better reputation, I can't say if it is still justified, but I often have more trust in projects kicked off by RedHat engineers as their communication feels more open. Cheers, Karsten -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Am Mittwoch, 9. Juni 2010, 16:35:51 schrieb Per Jessen:

Karsten König wrote:

...

For Fedora and RedHat I think it's basicly the same as openSUSE to Novell about gained expertise, testbed etc. Still RedHat as a company seems more of a grey eminance and has a better reputation, I can't say if it is still justified, but I often have more trust in projects kicked off by RedHat engineers as their communication feels more open.

RedHat and Canonical both have the tremendous advantage of being Linux companies fair and square.

/Per Jessen, Zürich

SuSE still rings a bell? It is one of the first companies founded to sell a linux distribution and to create a business model around it, according to wikipedia more then 10 years before Canonical and even one year before RedHat. So SuSE is owned by Novell, now they aren't a Linux company anymore? And let's not even get down to statistics crunching about linux contribution here, we know how bad looks on one of the mentioned players... Regards, Karsten -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

El 09/06/10 13:14, Per Jessen escribió:

We have all been told that SuSE does not exist, is not an entity (except in the Handelsregister).

SuSE (with the little u) is long gone.

However, openSUSE would be in a much better position if it was still SuSE Linux, IMHO.

No, it would not even exist now, and the distribution would be swimming with the fishes. You have to inform yourself better. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 [sent later] On 2010-06-09 21:33, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:

El 09/06/10 13:14, Per Jessen escribió:

...

We have all been told that SuSE does not exist, is not an entity (except in the Handelsregister).

SuSE (with the little u) is long gone.

Not so... there are files and scripts in the distro named that way. Fortunately >:-P - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" GM (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iF4EAREIAAYFAkwQiBQACgkQja8UbcUWM1x0uQD/aF10+Zh3BjnqapkWVpbn4SZ5 MF50/63b3cnZB5R4hH4A/0aeW8zXx3A/PRjB1mNFQf61DiSHXa6utDSo+MLGYVR0 =Ydx0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

2010/6/11 Per Jessen :

A couple of prominent ones:

/etc/SuSE-release, /etc/SuSE-brand

Why people keep reading in small details what they like to read? Really, this is not of any help, whatever is your idea. At best, it is just talking for the sake of it, at worst it is trolling. Both of no use. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Saturday June 12 2010 01:01:01 Per Jessen wrote:

Alberto Passalacqua wrote:

...

2010/6/11 Per Jessen :

...

A couple of prominent ones:

/etc/SuSE-release, /etc/SuSE-brand

Why people keep reading in small details what they like to read? Really, this is not of any help, whatever is your idea. At best, it is just talking for the sake of it, at worst it is trolling. Both of no use.

Do you think your comment is of more help?? I don't, so stop trolling yourself.

We all know by now you wont stop acting like that. So at least spare our inboxes needless mails like the one above. Thanks a lot in advance.

/Per Jessen, Zürich -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

2010/6/12 Trifle Menot :

On Sat, 12 Jun 2010 01:01:01 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:

...

Alberto Passalacqua wrote:

...

2010/6/11 Per Jessen :

...

A couple of prominent ones:

/etc/SuSE-release, /etc/SuSE-brand

Why people keep reading in small details what they like to read? Really, this is not of any help, whatever is your idea. At best, it is just talking for the sake of it, at worst it is trolling. Both of no use.

Do you think your comment is of more help??  I don't, so stop trolling yourself.

Those who hate the free flow of ideas and speech are your enemies, because their darkened minds and evil hearts want to steal your joy.

Without joy, projects die.

Could you list the number of initiatives you take part to promote openSUSE? How many ideas you contributed on openFATE? Bug reports on bugzilla? How many simple suggestions you gave to the developers in ten minutes during a chat on IRC? How much feedback? How many translations or wiki pages you contributed? Questions answered on forums? People you convinced to try openSUSE? That's what make the project live. Not this discussion. Not unrealistic suggestions. And surely not uninformed opinions. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2010-06-11 15:24, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:

El 10/06/10 02:37, Carlos E. R. escribió:

...

...

SuSE (with the little u) is long gone.

Not so... there are files and scripts in the distro named that way. Fortunately >:-P

removing that files will break an undertermined amount of packages... i.e python determines If it is running on SUSE products by looking at /etc/SuSE-release...

I'm not in any way suggesting spending time on removing any and all occurrences of "SuSE" in the distro. I'm just mentioning that they are there - and in fact, I like it, it's part of our history. Nothing to be ashamed of. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" GM (Elessar)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkwUIH8ACgkQU92UU+smfQUw3gCcDXU60t7XKePQQ/4sLwTNxs7Y oFwAniofuVaMPYx48pLw2lrn007eE3zk =kVKE -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

* Trifle Menot [06-12-10 20:25]:

History doesn't gain market share. That ridiculous camEL caSE is ugly cruft. They should all be changed to "opensuse" without camel case.

If that breaks packages, then fix the packages. With suse's culture of gratuitous branding patches, what's a few more patches?

Wasted bandwidth :0 ^From:.triflemenot\@beewyz\.com /dev/null cured -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Hello, 2010/6/10 Basil Chupin :

Trifle Menot is asking the same questions and making the same observations as myself - but I have to admit with a bit more reservation than myself. Nothing has changed it seems: people are just not, as Trifle stated, fooled by horse-manure (my interpretation, btw).

Trifle Menot is not asking questions. He is saying a lot of things do not work, and he is proposing solutions that are clearly not feasible and, in my opinion, not even correct. If you carefully read what he stated, he changed his mind many times in a few hours. First he says Novell is the problem, and that openSUSE should become completely independent from Novell, then he wrote he doesn't care who pays the bills and it is fine if Novell does that, as long as it doesn't influence the project, then again he identifies the source of the problems with the MS/N deal, meaning that Novell is the problem again, and so on. In addition, he comes here saying he won't give any kind of help. This automatically excludes him from those who should be listened to, because a community is based on volunteers and contributors. If you don't contribute, you don't acquire the reputation, respect and, in the end, the right to influence the project itself. It is as simple as that. You can ask questions in many ways, and either Per and Trifle are not doing this in a constructive manner, especially because they appear to be uninformed on quite some point, and to use what they think is true at their convenience to make their point. About your statement on 11.3, what's wrong with it? If you found a problem report it, since the distribution is still under development and not released yet. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Hi, 2010/6/10 Trifle Menot :

No, you misunderstand what I said.

Clearly I'm not alone to "misunderstand" you. And clearly you wrote sentences that appear to be contradictory.

...

First he says Novell is the problem, and that openSUSE should become completely independent from Novell, then he wrote he doesn't care who pays the bills and it is fine if Novell does that, as long as it doesn't influence the project, then again he identifies the source of the problems with the MS/N deal, meaning that Novell is the problem again, and so on.

No, you misconstrue my words and mischaracterize my position.

Make your position clear and credible. It is your job, not ours.

...

In addition, he comes here saying he won't give any kind of help. This automatically excludes him from those who should be listened to

Your vehicle has a flat tire, and oil is rapidly leaking from your motor.  If I fix your flat tire, your motor will freeze a few miles down the road.  It makes no sense for me to help fix your flat tire, while you insist on driving with an oil leak.  Your priorities are in the wrong order.

I don't think independence is the absolute priority right now. It has its importance, but I see other goals that are more important. However, independently from this, you refuse to contribute to correct even the order of priorities.

...

because a community is based on volunteers and contributors. If you don't contribute, you don't acquire the reputation, respect and, in the end, the right to influence the project itself.

You need to listen to outsiders who contribute nothing more than opinions.  That's how you build market share.  Listening only to clique members will guarantee your demise.

It depends. Some opinion is valuable, and has to be listened. Often however opinions sound more as unmotivated critics. You simply need to read the mailing lists of the past years to see opinion are listened, things are done to answer requests from the community, and there are many efforts to further move in that direction. About the market share, I'm extremely interested in your qualifications to talk about it. I read your previous post about it, and you do not seem to have a clear picture of the actual situation about the actual market share numbers. A. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

2010/6/10 Trifle Menot :

Besides stating my opinion, how do you think I can work to change the priorities?

Do something. Show you can help in some way. Leaders talk, good leaders lead by example. ;-) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

2010/6/10 Trifle Menot :

...

Do something. Show you can help in some way.

I'm not going to fix a flat tire, just so you can drive down the road with an oil leak.

Perfect. So please move on. The last thing the openSUSE community need is someone without any interest in doing something.

...

Leaders talk, good leaders lead by example. ;-)

You said you see other priorities.  I invited you to offer your opinion on them ...

I won't do that in this thread. It would be a repetition of what has been discussed already with people who actually cares and works to make openSUSE a better project. Many of these priorities are being addressed, so there is no point to scrutinize them any further, especially in a thread which degenerated long ago. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

2010/6/10 Trifle Menot :

On Thu, 10 Jun 2010 15:20:48 -0500, Alberto Passalacqua That's a cop-out.  Priorities change.  You can never stop talking about priorities if you expect to attract new users.  New users have not heard the old discussions.  If you can't tolerate new users who have different ideas, how do you expect the project to grow?

New users should join, observe for a while, try to understand how things work in the community, maybe try to understand if they can help in some way, and then, if they believe it's the case, suggest changes. It's not that you drop in and suggest "let's change everything". You don't have the metrics to evaluate the situation, you do not know the goals of the project, the ideas of who is working on it, and, as a consequence, you are unable to judge. Cooperating to a project is an exchange: you give something, you get something back. To do that however, you should start accepting how things are, and work on them. What you did is not even close to this, and that's why you're having negative reactions.

I think you want to stay in a comfort zone, without any pesky new users disturbing your little clique.

You wrote this many times. It shows you do not know much about the openSUSE community, because there is a variety of people, with very different ideas and point of views on many things. If there is something that works in openSUSE is the comparison of ideas, sometime even too active, with some recent example before the release of openSUSE 11.2. As a suggestion, you had a potentially valid point on independence, even if we give different meaning to what it should be in the case of openSUSE. However, your valid point turned invalid due to what you said and how you said it. If you really want to help, you should first know the community and the project more, because nobody will accept critics from someone that has no idea of what is going on. It won't happen here in openSUSE, it won't happen anywhere else, if who takes decisions really cares about what has to be done. A. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Wed, 9 Jun 2010, Karsten König wrote:

But I don't remember any public statement what Novell expects from it's support for openSUSE, except what reads like general charity. I can think of alot out of my head, be it gaining expertise, having a good testbase for future products, improving future products through external contributions, earning a good reputation as opensource contributor, providing interesting work topics for employees, etc.

That's a good list, Karsten. And I am not sure whether the use of "testbase" was intentional, but it leads to an important point: The way I see openSUSE, and I admit that may be different from how some at Novell saw it some years ago, is as a base for SUSE Linux Enterprise, not as a testbed. http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2010-05/msg00094.html was an earlier, quick attempt of mine to answer this question, by the way.

http://en.opensuse.org/Frequently_Asked_Questions#What_is_the_relationship_o... tries to shortly address this, btw also stating 'Novell [...] retains ultimate responsibility for the project.' The entry states it's the base for SLE, that's it, well this obviously contradicts the wish for a totally independent community as it might create something that just won't sell as SLE ;-)

One way of looking at this is to assume the resources I have at my disposal are finite. So, the more Novell has to invest into "fixing" things up for SLE, the less we can invest into things that benefit openSUSE. Which means there is a case to be made for openSUSE and (the next version of) SLE not diverging too much. At the same time openSUSE needs to be, and is, independent to a fair extent as some choices like ext4 or the addition of LXDE are showing. As so often in life, it simply is not black and white. Gerald -- Dr. Gerald Pfeifer gp@novell.com | SUSE Linux Products GmbH Director Product Management | HRB 16746 (AG Nuremberg) SUSE Linux Enterprise, openSUSE, Appliances | GF Markus Rex

On Sat, 12 Jun 2010, Karsten König wrote:

...

And I am not sure whether the use of "testbase" was intentional, but it leads to an important point: The way I see openSUSE, and I admit that may be different from how some at Novell saw it some years ago, is as a base for SUSE Linux Enterprise, not as a testbed. Yes testbed wasn't intentional, the FAQ clears up it's the base for SLE =)

Never trust statistics^WFAQs you have not tweaked yourself. :-)

...

http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2010-05/msg00094.html was an earlier, quick attempt of mine to answer this question, by the way. Well I was actually thinking about replying to that back then already. The 'dear to our heart' part is just too much icing on the cake for me.

Why? As you said, a lot of us actually feel strongly about broadening the use of Linux/Free Software/Open Source/UNIXoid systems at a personal level and/or a professional level. And if you are looking at it from a pure business perspective, growing Linux overall looks like an important goal for Novell, too. And when business and personal goals align nicely, why should that not be dear to my heart (and those of many around me)? ;-) Gerald -- Dr. Gerald Pfeifer gp@novell.com | SUSE Linux Products GmbH Director Product Management | HRB 16746 (AG Nuremberg) SUSE Linux Enterprise, openSUSE, Appliances | GF Markus Rex