On Tue, 2009-03-24 at 13:38 +0100, Vincent Untz wrote:

Hi,

Just wondering, since it's not the first time that planetsuse.org doesn't work: was it ever discussed to move the planet to planet.opensuse.org?

(yes, I know about http://planet.opensu.se/)

Hi Vincent I was about to start discuss the same thing. I think it makes sense to have an official planet (planet.opensuse.org). We really need an official planet, in the main project site. Luis -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Le mardi 24 mars 2009, à 13:44 +0100, Wolfgang Rosenauer a écrit :

Vincent Untz schrieb:

...

Hi,

Just wondering, since it's not the first time that planetsuse.org doesn't work: was it ever discussed to move the planet to planet.opensuse.org?

planet.opensuse.org should indeed point to the planet IMHO. I wouldn't _move_ it there though if that means that it would be hosted in openSUSE's (aka Novell's infrastructure).

I'm assuming that the problem with having the openSUSE infrastructure hosted by Novell is that access to it is limited to some people. Was there ever some discussion to start having some infrastructure outside of Novell? Or are there good reasons to not do this? Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Le mardi 24 mars 2009, à 13:23 +0000, Benji Weber a écrit :

We do have a community server paid for by several people which hosts planet suse, software portal, webpin and other things. Unfortunately these things have to be organised informally, since there is no openSUSE organisation or even a ringfenced openSUSE fund that people can contribute to towards hosting costs etc.

Nod. We discussed this a bit on #opensuse-gnome. The lack of legal entity for openSUSE makes things difficult for funding. A good solution that I'd like the board to consider is to have the project join something like the Software Freedom Conservancy [1] or SPI [2]. [1] http://conservancy.softwarefreedom.org/ [2] http://www.spi-inc.org/

Another problem is that the opensuse.org domain is controlled by Novell not the openSUSE project, so we can't use it for things like planet suse, software portal, community wiki et al without Novell endorsing the content therein, which we've been told is not possible for things that might link to patent infringing software for instance.

So, hrm, how can we change this? :-) I guess we can't change this easily in the short term, but does it make sense in the long term to have the opensuse.org domain controlled by, say, the board? (question for the board, I guess) Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 9:54 AM, Vincent Untz wrote:

...

Another problem is that the opensuse.org domain is controlled by Novell not the openSUSE project, so we can't use it for things like planet suse, software portal, community wiki et al without Novell endorsing the content therein, which we've been told is not possible for things that might link to patent infringing software for instance.

I'm not sure this is true, strictly speaking. We could ask legal (which I'm not sure has ever been done) if we assume any risks by extending a subdomain to a server controlled by a third party. The tricky bit I think comes in when we host it ourselves. There's also the question of DNS management, etc.: If it's hosted under opensuse.org, we have to depend on IS&T to make DNS changes, which may take a bit longer than if the DNS is managed by someone in the community.

So, hrm, how can we change this? :-) I guess we can't change this easily in the short term, but does it make sense in the long term to have the opensuse.org domain controlled by, say, the board? (question for the board, I guess)

Feel free to propose that to the board. Best, Zonker -- Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier openSUSE Community Manager: http://zonker.opensuse.org Blogs: http://blogs.zdnet.com/community | http://www.dissociatedpress.net Twitter: jzb | Identica: jzb http://identi.ca/group/opensuse/members -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Wednesday 25 March 2009 08:32:38 am Martin Lasarsch wrote:

On Tuesday 24 March 2009 14:54:28 Vincent Untz wrote:

...

So, hrm, how can we change this? :-) I guess we can't change this easily in the short term, but does it make sense in the long term to have the opensuse.org domain controlled by, say, the board? (question for the board, I guess)

Last hackweek i asked "why not make an openSUSE foundation" to be more independent from Novell and let the community really control the project.

Most people thought this would be a good idea.

And no, this is not against the board or Novell, this would be just another instance with hopefully more power ...

It can't be against Novell if it saves them money. :-) The foundation would be able to attract more donors. Right now there is no many as there is no independent body that can receive donations and small donors would not give money to Novell. It is simple psychological thing. One it is corporate account, two they have enough founding.

With a company in the back there are some limitations like legal crap. A foundation should say "so what, sue me!"

It will be not that simple. Foundation will be legal entity, but shallow pocket should have far lesser fears from patent trolls. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

jdd a écrit :

and even with relatively few money, any things can be done on the net

--------------------------------------many---------- my keeboard want me to type exactly in the middle pf the key :-( jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://valerie.dodin.org http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-eic8MSSfM http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1412160445 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Vincent Untz wrote:

Le mardi 24 mars 2009, à 13:23 +0000, Benji Weber a écrit :

...

We do have a community server paid for by several people which hosts planet suse, software portal, webpin and other things. Unfortunately these things have to be organised informally, since there is no openSUSE organisation or even a ringfenced openSUSE fund that people can contribute to towards hosting costs etc.

Nod. We discussed this a bit on #opensuse-gnome. The lack of legal entity for openSUSE makes things difficult for funding. A good solution that I'd like the board to consider is to have the project join something like the Software Freedom Conservancy [1] or SPI [2].

[1] http://conservancy.softwarefreedom.org/ [2] http://www.spi-inc.org/

We talked a bit about this topic at our board meeting today. I'll first get in touch with the appropriate people at Debian and Drupal, as they're both under the umbrella of SPI, to hear how it works out for them. It's definitely an option, and if we can avoid jumping through lots of paperwork and legal woes, then it's a serious option ;)

...

Another problem is that the opensuse.org domain is controlled by Novell not the openSUSE project, so we can't use it for things like planet suse, software portal, community wiki et al without Novell endorsing the content therein, which we've been told is not possible for things that might link to patent infringing software for instance.

So, hrm, how can we change this? :-) I guess we can't change this easily in the short term, but does it make sense in the long term to have the opensuse.org domain controlled by, say, the board? (question for the board, I guess)

Why not, but I'm not sure this would actually change a lot. If you mean controlled on a technical level, I guess that's rather unlikely to happen. And if you mean on a decisional level, well, I think we already have the right connections to the right people to ask for changes to be made. It's really two different aspects, as Zonker already pointed out: 1) is it OK for Novell to have a DNS entry under opensuse.org that points to a site that's controlled by non-Novell-employee community members ? 2) requests such as a DNS change takes several months to be performed, for whatever reason; I presume the IS&T folks do a great job inside Novell, but for openSUSE matters, our experience wasn't all that great (sometimes you even run into people there who don't know what openSUSE is) 1) ICHAIN: THE PROBLEM ====================== iChain is so much more of a show-stopper though. Let's just take an example: Software Portal. It's currently impossible to have that (web) application authenticate against our own user database because only applications hosted inside Novell's infrastructure can authenticate against iChain. And that isn't just "annoying", it also makes linking between e.g. Software Portal and OBS or users.o.o impossible (at least as far as user accounts/profiles are concerned). 2) PROS AND CONS OF BEING HOSTED AT NOVELL ========================================== There are obviously pros for having things hosted by Novell: Novell comes up for the costs (hardware, hosting, staff, bandwidth), but there are also a few pretty annoying cons. The major problem with those disadvantages, IMHO, is that they hinder community contributions as far as NNEs ("non-Novell-employee"s) are concerned: 2.1) NNE CONTRIBUTORS ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ NNEs could contribute to the project by maintaining infrastructure tools, relieving NEs (Novell employees) of some of that work. Current situation: not possible, only NEs get access to those hosts 2.2) INFRASTRUCTURE APPS ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Community contributors could develop new applications for our infrastructure, or mashups that interlink current tools (e.g. bugzilla information blended into Software Portal pages). Current situation: not possible: - - iChain only works for stuff hosted at Novell, - - we can't modify Bugzilla because it has to be approved by IS&T and by the various Bugzilla committees that exist within Novell (that being said, I can understand why, N's Bugzilla is critical to its business as it also manages security issues and bugs on enterprise and other non-FOSS products there) 3) LEGAL ENTITY FOR OPENSUSE ============================ Would an openSUSE legal entity of its own address those problems ? 3.1) PROS ~~~~~~~~~ Partially: We could collect donations and possibly even sponsoring (though that's another question) and use that money for infrastructure, sponsoring travel costs, support some initiatives/projects within openSUSE, etc... Depending on what we're able to raise in funding, we could have hosts for infrastructure, and that would possibly be an enabler for a few things. 3.2) CONS/ISSUES ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ But it also raises questions/issues: 3.2.1) LEGAL ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ Legal kung-fu with having a non-for-profit (might be alleviated by going through SPI or Software Freedom Conservancy) 3.2.2) CONTROL OVER THE FUNDS ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ Who would control the funds ? The board is currently the only elected body of the community so.. it would probably make sense. But the board also includes a Novell-appointed chairman and has the restriction of 2 NEs and 2 NNEs (note that Michl is currently that Novell-appointed chairman and has my complete support and trust, it's clearly not about the person that is currently doing the job) And if it isn't the board, then we'd need to run another election. And how would that work out between those two presumably different teams ? Doesn't sound too good IMHO. The 2 NEs vs 2 NNEs rule could be removed in the future I guess. It was originally installed to make sure that we have 2 NNEs on the board. And not the opposite, even though I'm sure some people might think it was in order to make sure that there are 3 NEs on the board (2 elected + 1 appointed). I know that wasn't the reason, I was part of the bootstrap board that created those rules and kicked off the first elections ;) Given the results of the 1st election, I'm not sure we still need that. 3.2.3) ICHAIN ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ Wrt the infrastructure, iChain is clearly a show stopper See a pattern here ? :) Anyhow, as you can see (and probably already know or thought of), many issues, many questions. And sorry for this big blob of text, I tried to structure it a bit :) cheers - -- -o) Pascal Bleser /\\ http://opensuse.org -- I took the green pill _\_v FOSDEM::7+8 Feb 2009, Brussels, http://fosdem.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFJysAvr3NMWliFcXcRAidnAJ9YrLffM/rKhOQ7Um1MzXVjY4xVlACfZIuV kTID+pGk29XX0JbUHApD0Eg= =vViZ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Aloha, Om Thursday 26 March 2009 00:46:53 Pascal Bleser wrote:

I'm sure we can find a solution for paying for the domain name, there's no point in Justin having to pay for it.

I'm still employed by Novell but I would pay for it and also have enough space on my server to host it - my service is outside of the Novell net and will be available for the devoted. Some of you already had the fun back in the times when I hosted suse-irc.org. And guys ... I don't pay for it because I work for Novell! I would love to pay for it because I love our engagement and how we are tied together! We rock the planet and the planet needs to know that we do! Greetings, daemon -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Hey hey, Thanks for the informative reply. Here are a few comments... Le jeudi 26 mars 2009, à 00:37 +0100, Pascal Bleser a écrit :

Vincent Untz wrote:

...

Le mardi 24 mars 2009, à 13:23 +0000, Benji Weber a écrit :

...

We do have a community server paid for by several people which hosts planet suse, software portal, webpin and other things. Unfortunately these things have to be organised informally, since there is no openSUSE organisation or even a ringfenced openSUSE fund that people can contribute to towards hosting costs etc.

Nod. We discussed this a bit on #opensuse-gnome. The lack of legal entity for openSUSE makes things difficult for funding. A good solution that I'd like the board to consider is to have the project join something like the Software Freedom Conservancy [1] or SPI [2].

[1] http://conservancy.softwarefreedom.org/ [2] http://www.spi-inc.org/

We talked a bit about this topic at our board meeting today. I'll first get in touch with the appropriate people at Debian and Drupal, as they're both under the umbrella of SPI, to hear how it works out for them.

It's definitely an option, and if we can avoid jumping through lots of paperwork and legal woes, then it's a serious option ;)

Awesome, glad to read this :-) If help is needed on this topic, don't hesitate to ask! [...]

...

So, hrm, how can we change this? :-) I guess we can't change this easily in the short term, but does it make sense in the long term to have the opensuse.org domain controlled by, say, the board? (question for the board, I guess)

Why not, but I'm not sure this would actually change a lot. If you mean controlled on a technical level, I guess that's rather unlikely to happen. And if you mean on a decisional level, well, I think we already have the right connections to the right people to ask for changes to be made.

Is there any (good) reason that it's unlikely to happen on the technical level? I mean, as long as the domain is owned by Novell, this is perfectly understandable, but then, is there any reason to have it owned by Novell? (again, I'm thinking long-term -- I'd be surprised to see us being able to change this in the next 6 months) [...]

3) LEGAL ENTITY FOR OPENSUSE ============================ Would an openSUSE legal entity of its own address those problems ?

[...]

3.2.2) CONTROL OVER THE FUNDS ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ Who would control the funds ?

The board is currently the only elected body of the community so.. it would probably make sense. But the board also includes a Novell-appointed chairman and has the restriction of 2 NEs and 2 NNEs (note that Michl is currently that Novell-appointed chairman and has my complete support and trust, it's clearly not about the person that is currently doing the job)

And if it isn't the board, then we'd need to run another election. And how would that work out between those two presumably different teams ? Doesn't sound too good IMHO.

Nod. We'd want the board to handle this (or to appoint people to handle this).

The 2 NEs vs 2 NNEs rule could be removed in the future I guess. It was originally installed to make sure that we have 2 NNEs on the board. And not the opposite, even though I'm sure some people might think it was in order to make sure that there are 3 NEs on the board (2 elected + 1 appointed). I know that wasn't the reason, I was part of the bootstrap board that created those rules and kicked off the first elections ;) Given the results of the 1st election, I'm not sure we still need that.

What about having a simple rule like "no more than 50% of the elected board members may be directly or indirectly affiliated with the same company"? I actually don't remember if we discussed that for the first elections (and it's too late for me to search ;-)). (there would still be the Novell-appointed chairman, don't know if it's an issue or not) Thanks, Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Hi, on 03/26/2009 12:37 AM Pascal Bleser wrote:

Vincent Untz wrote:

...

Le mardi 24 mars 2009, à 13:23 +0000, Benji Weber a écrit :

...

Another problem is that the opensuse.org domain is controlled by Novell not the openSUSE project, so we can't use it for things like planet suse, software portal, community wiki et al without Novell endorsing the content therein, which we've been told is not possible for things that might link to patent infringing software for instance. So, hrm, how can we change this? :-) I guess we can't change this easily in the short term, but does it make sense in the long term to have the opensuse.org domain controlled by, say, the board? (question for the board, I guess)

Why not, but I'm not sure this would actually change a lot. If you mean controlled on a technical level, I guess that's rather unlikely to happen.

Could you define control? Deckel controls opensuse.org and is happily changing everything we tell him to. So does technical control mean that we (whoever that is) vi the zone files? This is unlikely to happen for various reasons and I'm sure we don't want that.

2) requests such as a DNS change takes several months to be performed

This is really not true. It took me 5 minutes for my last DNS change to opensuse.org. A simple mail to admin@o.o does always the trick. In general i see this trend of working around the relatively(!!) small issues we have with grabbing everything and try to do it on our own. Yes there are problems with infrastructure sometimes. Yes there are structural problems we have with it. Yes there is communication involved that can go wrong. Yes there might be delays because of various reasons. BUT there is also a premium service we get out of this. One that we will have a very very hard time to deliver. I get the feeling this is often forgotten. Henne -- Henne Vogelsang, openSUSE. Everybody has a plan, until they get hit. - Mike Tyson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Henne Vogelsang wrote:

Hi,

on 03/26/2009 12:37 AM Pascal Bleser wrote:

...

Vincent Untz wrote:

...

Le mardi 24 mars 2009, à 13:23 +0000, Benji Weber a écrit :

...

Another problem is that the opensuse.org domain is controlled by Novell not the openSUSE project, so we can't use it for things like planet suse, software portal, community wiki et al without Novell endorsing the content therein, which we've been told is not possible for things that might link to patent infringing software for instance. So, hrm, how can we change this? :-) I guess we can't change this easily in the short term, but does it make sense in the long term to have the opensuse.org domain controlled by, say, the board? (question for the board, I guess) Why not, but I'm not sure this would actually change a lot. If you mean controlled on a technical level, I guess that's rather unlikely to happen.

Could you define control? Deckel controls opensuse.org and is happily changing everything we tell him to. So does technical control mean that we (whoever that is) vi the zone files? This is unlikely to happen for various reasons and I'm sure we don't want that.

That's what I meant too :)

...

2) requests such as a DNS change takes several months to be performed

This is really not true. It took me 5 minutes for my last DNS change to opensuse.org. A simple mail to admin@o.o does always the trick.

Not in my experience, but it might have been (and still is) a communication problem more than anything else. Arguably, I guess I was too quick drawing conclusions on DNS administration. Sorry, I stand corrected :)

In general i see this trend of working around the relatively(!!) small issues we have with grabbing everything and try to do it on our own. Yes there are problems with infrastructure sometimes. Yes there are structural problems we have with it. Yes there is communication involved that can go wrong. Yes there might be delays because of various reasons. BUT there is also a premium service we get out of this. One that we will have a very very hard time to deliver. I get the feeling this is often forgotten.

That's true in most cases, yes. It's about weighing the pros and cons. But there are a few things we know we're very unlikely to be able to change in the current structure, and it's certainly worth thinking of an alternative. Obviously, it has to be more interesting as an option, the point isn't to go blindly and just do it on our own for the sake of it. cheers - -- -o) Pascal Bleser /\\ http://opensuse.org -- I took the green pill _\_v FOSDEM::7+8 Feb 2009, Brussels, http://fosdem.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFJzG9jr3NMWliFcXcRAluJAKCGFtoQtLoM+jM/SicdwlT2b4cDuACfSLU+ OYKqiWm8+gY75KMXy7C+jvQ= =Ewt1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org