[opensuse-project] future features
Hi all, I've received a few requests already from ppl asking "what will the next openSUSE release bring". Now I know a few things being worked on, from Webpin2 to the bretzn/appstream stuff. And of course the obvious "latest software packages". But I guess there are other ideas people would like to work on, right? Now I know, it's not done to advertise things when you don't know if they will be finished. But we're not a company, and if 5 of the 20 projects we say we're working on doesn't make it for the next release, well, that's not so strange. Not advertising anything because "we might not get it done" is bad for us - we're already seen as not-innovative and that's becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy. Nobody, after all, will join openSUSE development if it is seen as boring. So it will BE boring just because of that. We've done pretty OK with our 11.4 release in terms of features, so now people want to know more. Let's try and give them that. If you plan to work on something cool, say it. Don't keep hiding under that bloody rock just because you might not have time or because you think it's not important! Please give us marketing peeps something to talk about, so openSUSE will be seen as cool again and you'll see- self fulfilling prophecies can work FOR you too ;-) grtz /me who is annoyed that every ubuntu beta fart without any noteworthy feature still gets a dedicated article on his favorite dutch IT news site while a final openSUSE release doesn't get the slightest mention :(
On Mon, Apr 4, 2011 at 12:07 PM, Jos Poortvliet
Hi all,
I've received a few requests already from ppl asking "what will the next openSUSE release bring". Now I know a few things being worked on, from Webpin2 to the bretzn/appstream stuff. And of course the obvious "latest software packages". But I guess there are other ideas people would like to work on, right?
I mentioned in the thread about BTRFS that EXT3/EXT4 patches exist to add snapshot functionality. Unlike BTRFS, these snapshots are filesystem wide. ie. You issue a snapshot request for the entire filesystem. Then you can mount the snapshot readonly and browse around to see the filesystem as it was. Amir Goldstein is the main developer and who marketing should interview if they want to understand what the patches do now and how they could be integrated into opensuse in the future. I reached out to the team (including Amir) and just this weekend created a home project to work on packaging next4 for opensuse factory, but I'm focused on ext4 patches only. That team is pushing to get their code into vanilla in .40 or .41, so even without specific effort it should show up in some sense for the next opensuse release. But I think we need to get the functionality into factory ASAP so other packages can start to build functionality around snapshots. I hope the functionality will make it into ext4 for the next release of opensuse. Their homepage is: http://next3.sourceforge.net/ The code I'm packaging is at: https://github.com/amir73il/ext4-snapshots Note: I haven't even pulled the code yet. It depends on the 2.6.39 kernel. There is a linux-next (2.6.39) package in OBS, but it isn't building at present. Just an hour ago I sent a email to the maintainer to find out the status of that project. Greg -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Le 04/04/2011 18:07, Jos Poortvliet a écrit :
If you plan to work on something cool, say it.
there are some things Linux lacks. In my domain of work, the main lack is a decent linear video editor and the tool chain necessary to build a dvd. In fact there are many, but none is really ready for use. So may be we could focus on some. Right now, I'm scanning all the dvdauthor GUI. Most are a bit buggy (but most minor bugs that are to be solved soon) see http://dodin.org/wiki/index.php?n=Doc.DVDAuthoringWithOpenSUSELinux may be we should discuss of *one* app to focus on (and drop the others or let them to upstream), but make this one rock solid. I would probably vote for Kdenlive + KMediaManager, but I don't worry which one we choose, providing we choose one. I'm tired to have to use W for video editing :-)) May I note that on the W world, there are several good and cheap video editors, the semi-pro model being Adobe Pro (Adobe Premiere, magix, ulead, pinnacle studio and so on, with a cost range of $50-$100), this mean there is a market and potential users. kdenlive, for example, is way lighter than magix, for similar features, but needs obviously some manpower for debugging jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xgxog7_clip-l-ombre-et-la-lumiere-3-bad-pig... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGgv_ZFtV14 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Mandag den 4. april 2011 18:07:16 skrev Jos Poortvliet:
we're already seen as not-innovative and that's becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy. Nobody, after all, will join openSUSE development if it is seen as boring. So it will BE boring just because of that.
We've done pretty OK with our 11.4 release in terms of features, so now people want to know more. Let's try and give them that.
Why? I thought the strategy was making something productive, not hyped "innovation" for the sake of innovation. I think you're overestimating the importance of "new (distro specific) stuff". People are craving for something that works and is usable. And whenever something changes a little bit half of the users will whine like crazy - not praise the innovation. What innovation does Debian or Gentoo or Arch do? ... They just ship packages, and they don't seem to have much trouble being hyped or attracting contributors. We should just accept that there are no resources for major innovations (except susestudio and webyast which most users have no interest in) and set realistic, honest goals. We can barely maintain the distro as it is. And I think we'd be much more succesful if we could deliver functional NetworkManager and updater applets for the first time in years, than providing some hyped "innovation". -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Martin Schlander wrote:
Mandag den 4. april 2011 18:07:16 skrev Jos Poortvliet:
we're already seen as not-innovative and that's becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy. Nobody, after all, will join openSUSE development if it is seen as boring. So it will BE boring just because of that.
We've done pretty OK with our 11.4 release in terms of features, so now people want to know more. Let's try and give them that.
Why? I thought the strategy was making something productive, not hyped "innovation" for the sake of innovation.
I thought so too, but I have no idea what really happened to the strategy discussion. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (9.4°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Hey, On 04/04/2011 08:08 PM, Per Jessen wrote:
Martin Schlander wrote:
Mandag den 4. april 2011 18:07:16 skrev Jos Poortvliet:
we're already seen as not-innovative and that's becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy. Nobody, after all, will join openSUSE development if it is seen as boring. So it will BE boring just because of that.
We've done pretty OK with our 11.4 release in terms of features, so now people want to know more. Let's try and give them that.
Why? I thought the strategy was making something productive, not hyped "innovation" for the sake of innovation.
I thought so too, but I have no idea what really happened to the strategy discussion.
It's deadlocked by the Board. Like so many things... Henne -- Henne Vogelsang, openSUSE. Everybody has a plan, until they get hit. - Mike Tyson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Le 05/04/2011 12:54, Henne Vogelsang a écrit :
It's deadlocked by the Board. Like so many things...
busyness problem of other kind of problem? jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xgxog7_clip-l-ombre-et-la-lumiere-3-bad-pig... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGgv_ZFtV14 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
we're already seen as not-innovative and that's becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy. Nobody, after all, will join openSUSE development if it is seen as boring. So it will BE boring just because of that.
We've done pretty OK with our 11.4 release in terms of features, so now people want to know more. Let's try and give them that. Why? I thought the strategy was making something productive, not hyped "innovation" for the sake of innovation. I think it´s just a consequence of the problem, that they are lesser developers as needed. A interesting project will bring some developers with it. And everybody likes it to create something really _important_ and _world_changing_, So his mail was just a little *bait*. I think you're overestimating the importance of "new (distro specific) stuff". People are craving for something that works and is usable. And whenever something changes a little bit half of the users will whine like crazy - not
Mandag den 4. april 2011 18:07:16 skrev Jos Poortvliet: praise the innovation.
What innovation does Debian or Gentoo or Arch do? ... They just ship packages, and they don't seem to have much trouble being hyped or attracting contributors.
We should just accept that there are no resources for major innovations (except susestudio and webyast which most users have no interest in) and set realistic, honest goals. We can barely maintain the distro as it is.
And I think we'd be much more succesful if we could deliver functional NetworkManager and updater applets for the first time in years, than providing some hyped "innovation". I think, the main goal for openSUSE 12.0 (I think it would be 12.0,
Am 04.04.2011 19:57, schrieb Martin Schlander: please don´t start another pointless discussion about version numbers here, it´s all said what can be said.) is GNOME 3.x. The next openSUSE release will ship GNOME 3.x from the very beginning of the development cycle as I understood it right. So our GNOME-team has a lot to do, but also the marketing team and we´re, the Ambassadors, because we all have to promote the new GNOME release for openSUSE, so that the user will use it, and not the old GNOME 2.x series (Yes, KDE is also an "alternative, but some people doesn´t want to use it.... I don´t understand them at all, but....) So, let us do something great on the GNOME side of the new release. This will be enough work, I think. openSUSE 11.4 is stable and current as well. _NEVER_A_RUNNING_SYSTEM_!_ Firefox 5 and KDE 4.7 will give us other goals too, and LibreOffice will be changing some things of his suite and his interface soon. Apart this, there´s the "distrocreating-as-usual"-work. The kernel needs also love as YaST and zypper. _When_ we solved this issues, we can think of something special, but openSUSE is also a big number on some servers. Servers need stable systems for a well running. This should be a goal too. just my $0.02 -- Kim Leyendecker (kimleyendecker@hotmail.de) openSUSE Ambassador / openSUSE Wiki Team DE http://www.opensuse.org Have you tried SUSE Studio? Need to create a Live CD, an app you want to package and distribute , or create your own linux distro. Give SUSE Studio a try. www.susestudio.com. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
I'd like to see us build some more media-friendly apps. Boxee, in
particular, annoys me by being Ubuntu-only. Kudos to yaloki for
breaking Handbrake out of the *buntu jail, but we still need more
polish there.
- James Mason 'bear454'
On Mon, Apr 4, 2011 at 11:25 AM, Kim Leyendecker
Am 04.04.2011 19:57, schrieb Martin Schlander:
Mandag den 4. april 2011 18:07:16 skrev Jos Poortvliet:
we're already seen as not-innovative and that's becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy. Nobody, after all, will join openSUSE development if it is seen as boring. So it will BE boring just because of that.
We've done pretty OK with our 11.4 release in terms of features, so now people want to know more. Let's try and give them that.
Why? I thought the strategy was making something productive, not hyped "innovation" for the sake of innovation.
I think it´s just a consequence of the problem, that they are lesser developers as needed. A interesting project will bring some developers with it. And everybody likes it to create something really _important_ and _world_changing_, So his mail was just a little *bait*.
I think you're overestimating the importance of "new (distro specific) stuff". People are craving for something that works and is usable. And whenever something changes a little bit half of the users will whine like crazy - not praise the innovation.
What innovation does Debian or Gentoo or Arch do? ... They just ship packages, and they don't seem to have much trouble being hyped or attracting contributors.
We should just accept that there are no resources for major innovations (except susestudio and webyast which most users have no interest in) and set realistic, honest goals. We can barely maintain the distro as it is.
And I think we'd be much more succesful if we could deliver functional NetworkManager and updater applets for the first time in years, than providing some hyped "innovation".
I think, the main goal for openSUSE 12.0 (I think it would be 12.0, please don´t start another pointless discussion about version numbers here, it´s all said what can be said.) is GNOME 3.x. The next openSUSE release will ship GNOME 3.x from the very beginning of the development cycle as I understood it right. So our GNOME-team has a lot to do, but also the marketing team and we´re, the Ambassadors, because we all have to promote the new GNOME release for openSUSE, so that the user will use it, and not the old GNOME 2.x series (Yes, KDE is also an "alternative, but some people doesn´t want to use it.... I don´t understand them at all, but....)
So, let us do something great on the GNOME side of the new release. This will be enough work, I think.
openSUSE 11.4 is stable and current as well.
_NEVER_A_RUNNING_SYSTEM_!_
Firefox 5 and KDE 4.7 will give us other goals too, and LibreOffice will be changing some things of his suite and his interface soon.
Apart this, there´s the "distrocreating-as-usual"-work. The kernel needs also love as YaST and zypper.
_When_ we solved this issues, we can think of something special, but openSUSE is also a big number on some servers. Servers need stable systems for a well running. This should be a goal too.
just my $0.02
-- Kim Leyendecker (kimleyendecker@hotmail.de) openSUSE Ambassador / openSUSE Wiki Team DE http://www.opensuse.org Have you tried SUSE Studio? Need to create a Live CD, an app you want to package and distribute , or create your own linux distro. Give SUSE Studio a try. www.susestudio.com.
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Am 04.04.2011 20:30, schrieb James Mason:
I'd like to see us build some more media-friendly apps. Boxee, in particular, annoys me by being Ubuntu-only. Kudos to yaloki for breaking Handbrake out of the *buntu jail, but we still need more polish there. I think for that, we´ve got OBS, haven´t we? OBS is a great way to build our distro for future. We can seeing, which projects and packages are heavy developed and maybe can pick some one of them.
Maybe the way Jos described should be end in another developer version? -- Kim Leyendecker (kimleyendecker@hotmail.de) openSUSE Ambassador / openSUSE Wiki Team DE http://www.opensuse.org Have you tried SUSE Studio? Need to create a Live CD, an app you want to package and distribute , or create your own linux distro. Give SUSE Studio a try. www.susestudio.com. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Mon, 2011-04-04 at 11:30 -0700, James Mason wrote:
I'd like to see us build some more media-friendly apps. Boxee, in particular, annoys me by being Ubuntu-only.
??? It doesn't market itself as Ubuntu-only. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxee But there are numerous such applications [starting with Myth TV]. Personally I see little overlap with a workstation / PC distribution, and a 'media-center',
Kudos to yaloki for breaking Handbrake out of the *buntu jail, but we still need more polish there.
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On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 11:54, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
On Mon, 2011-04-04 at 11:30 -0700, James Mason wrote:
I'd like to see us build some more media-friendly apps. Boxee, in particular, annoys me by being Ubuntu-only.
??? It doesn't market itself as Ubuntu-only. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxee
But there are numerous such applications [starting with Myth TV]. Personally I see little overlap with a workstation / PC distribution, and a 'media-center',
Plus one million and then some.... openSUSE has no real reasonable possibility for Boxee or SopCast without compiling from source, crossing your fingers and praying to your favorite deity. Veetle kind of works... but poorly. Why do I list these? They are all apps I use on my MediaPC (for local media, Hulu, sports streams from Myp2p.eu etc). This MediaPC currently runs Ubuntu. Why Ubuntu? Because there are packages for each of these, and/or they "just work" in Ubuntu. I've tried time and again to set it all up on openSUSE, but I don't want to (nor have the time to) sit there, pull down the sources and build these apps and then spend 2 hours trying to convince Firefox to hand off sop: links correctly :-( Or other little non-MediaPC things like say... making sure Skype works "out-of-the-box" when a user installs it on openSUSE. Right now, that's not the case. If you install from a 64 bit LiveCD... unless you know it won't work after you install the provided RPM, you will spend an hour or so hunting down multiple missing packages and trying to launch Skype... hunting more missing packages etc etc. I guess what i'm saying is... there's a lot of hopefully easy stuff that we can do to take the rough/sharp edges off an otherwise solid distribution. C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Tuesday, April 05, 2011 01:28:22 PM C wrote: ...
I guess what i'm saying is... there's a lot of hopefully easy stuff that we can do to take the rough/sharp edges off an otherwise solid distribution.
Guys at Ubuntu have program called Papercuts . https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PaperCut It should be rough equivalent of our Junior jobs. http://en.opensuse.org/Junior_jobs It is about small tasks that should improve distro, and while they are already active solving problems, we still did not defined what is Junior job. We have broad list of places where one can help, and a bit more detailed list of Build Service, but that is all, no particular job with estimated skills and time frame need to accomplish.
C.
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I *love* the papercut concept.
There are thousands of small things that can be done to improve
usability, and most of us either just do over and over on each
install, or gripe but never fix.
* shortcuts for google-chrome/chromium modes (incognito, app, etc)
* sane plugin defaults for gedit, pidgin, etc. (instead of no-plugins
by default)
* sample media/featured artist cobranding (a couple CC audio & video
tracks) for banshee/amarok, etc.
* more content/attention to 'community repositories' on YaST
* shortcuts/pullins to partner content that can't be included
(Fluendo's DVD player, LaCie Lightscribe Labeler)
* pullin pkg for skype with proper requirements, shortcuts, and the
64-bit V4L fix
* swing.properties setup to use GTK them for Java apps by default
That's just a few papercuts off the top of my head.
- James Mason 'bear454'
On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 5:57 PM, Rajko M.
On Tuesday, April 05, 2011 01:28:22 PM C wrote: ...
I guess what i'm saying is... there's a lot of hopefully easy stuff that we can do to take the rough/sharp edges off an otherwise solid distribution.
Guys at Ubuntu have program called Papercuts . https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PaperCut
It should be rough equivalent of our Junior jobs. http://en.opensuse.org/Junior_jobs
It is about small tasks that should improve distro, and while they are already active solving problems, we still did not defined what is Junior job.
We have broad list of places where one can help, and a bit more detailed list of Build Service, but that is all, no particular job with estimated skills and time frame need to accomplish.
C.
-- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
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Le mardi 05 avril 2011, à 23:36 -0700, James Mason a écrit :
* shortcuts for google-chrome/chromium modes (incognito, app, etc) * sane plugin defaults for gedit, pidgin, etc. (instead of no-plugins by default) * sample media/featured artist cobranding (a couple CC audio & video tracks) for banshee/amarok, etc. * more content/attention to 'community repositories' on YaST * shortcuts/pullins to partner content that can't be included (Fluendo's DVD player, LaCie Lightscribe Labeler) * pullin pkg for skype with proper requirements, shortcuts, and the 64-bit V4L fix * swing.properties setup to use GTK them for Java apps by default
Please file bugs/features for all of those, including details (eg, what kind of plugins you'd want for gedit by default). Thanks, Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Le 04/04/2011 20:25, Kim Leyendecker a écrit :
openSUSE 11.4 is stable and current as well.
may be not so... you must understand than when a product is buggy for some time, everybody avoid it and so no one report bugs anymore. I just have a little example. I needed to build a dvd, and was not satified by my windows programm (incorporated to the linear editor), so I decided to use the command line dvdauthor. But guess what, dvdauthor is pretty intimidating, so I began to scan "dvd" in YaST. I already did one or two years ago, but there are so many new things... I got a list of nearly 10 applications, all of them GUI to dvdauthor. On these applications, nearly none was able to do what i expected. Some didn't either start, other crashes with segfault. So I began to test all these apps, one after the other and open bugzillas. May be I should have done this long before, but I hadn't the data material I have at hand right now. Of course, why keep 10 nearly identical apps, specially if they don't work? some are not even maintained upstream, but we have a packager that uses time packaging them... and now trying to fix the problems (many thanks to him!). wouldn't it not be better to study the apps, take one, probably the one better maintained, ask upstream if they need help (many apps have only a handfull developpers!) and drop all the others? I'm pretty sure there are other parts of the distro with same problem. jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xgxog7_clip-l-ombre-et-la-lumiere-3-bad-pig... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGgv_ZFtV14 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Am 04.04.2011 20:37, schrieb jdd:
Of course, why keep 10 nearly identical apps, specially if they don't work? some are not even maintained upstream, but we have a packager that uses time packaging them... and now trying to fix the problems (many thanks to him!). This make no sense at all, right. Keeping 10 identical apps, that don´t work at all, isn´t the right way. :(
wouldn't it not be better to study the apps, take one, probably the one better maintained, ask upstream if they need help (many apps have only a handfull developpers!) and drop all the others? Of course, this is the right way. But the whole thing is: Shall we support one big, all-in-one solution, or a more unix-philosophy-alike
collection of programmes that all works fine? This is a big adventure for every packager, if you ask me.... > > I'm pretty sure there are other parts of the distro with same problem. Hm, I don´t know ones, but I think you´re right
thanks -- Kim Leyendecker (kimleyendecker@hotmail.de) openSUSE Ambassador / openSUSE Wiki Team DE http://www.opensuse.org Have you tried SUSE Studio? Need to create a Live CD, an app you want to package and distribute , or create your own linux distro. Give SUSE Studio a try. www.susestudio.com. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Le 04/04/2011 20:42, Kim Leyendecker a écrit :
Of course, this is the right way. But the whole thing is: Shall we support one big, all-in-one solution, or a more unix-philosophy-alike collection of programmes that all works fine? This is a big adventure for every packager, if you ask me....
but the applications are of this sort: each one do the good job, the problem is that many apps try to do the same thing. Simply better have one that do the job than 10 that don't :-) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xgxog7_clip-l-ombre-et-la-lumiere-3-bad-pig... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGgv_ZFtV14 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Am 04.04.2011 21:37, schrieb jdd:
but the applications are of this sort: each one do the good job, the problem is that many apps try to do the same thing. Simply better have one that do the job than 10 that don't :-) Have you already create a openFATE-entry? I think a lot of developers are around there, and they will take your problem by heart....
thanks -- Kim Leyendecker (kimleyendecker@hotmail.de) openSUSE Ambassador / openSUSE Wiki Team DE http://www.opensuse.org Have you tried SUSE Studio? Need to create a Live CD, an app you want to package and distribute , or create your own linux distro. Give SUSE Studio a try. www.susestudio.com. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Am Montag 04 April 2011, 20:37:06 schrieb jdd:
Of course, why keep 10 nearly identical apps, specially if they don't work? some are not even maintained upstream, but we have a packager that uses time packaging them.
If you encounter unmaintained and useless packages, just file a bug report on https://bugzilla.novell.com/ to have them deleted. I did it for a few KDE applications https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=679006 and after just a few days they were gone which means now fewer packages to maintain for the packager and less work load on the build servers. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Le 04/04/2011 22:13, Markus Slopianka a écrit :
Am Montag 04 April 2011, 20:37:06 schrieb jdd:
Of course, why keep 10 nearly identical apps, specially if they don't work? some are not even maintained upstream, but we have a packager that uses time packaging them.
If you encounter unmaintained and useless packages, just file a bug report on https://bugzilla.novell.com/ to have them deleted. I did it for a few KDE applications https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=679006 and after just a few days they were gone which means now fewer packages to maintain for the packager and less work load on the build servers.
I work with the maintainer, But how can I know if somebody else don't want some product I feel un usefull? Is there a way to identify the zones of openSUSE with similar concerns (many apps for the same goal)? jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xgxog7_clip-l-ombre-et-la-lumiere-3-bad-pig... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGgv_ZFtV14 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Am Dienstag 05 April 2011, 10:12:41 schrieb jdd:
I work with the maintainer, But how can I know if somebody else don't want some product I feel un usefull?
If an application is unmaintained upstream AND does not even start, there is no point of keeping it. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Mon, 2011-04-04 at 19:57 +0200, Martin Schlander wrote:
And I think we'd be much more succesful if we could deliver functional NetworkManager and updater applets for the first time in years, than providing some hyped "innovation".
Both NM and updates are working perfectly for me on 11.4, just as they did on 11.3. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 11:55, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
On Mon, 2011-04-04 at 19:57 +0200, Martin Schlander wrote:
And I think we'd be much more succesful if we could deliver functional NetworkManager and updater applets for the first time in years, than providing some hyped "innovation".
Both NM and updates are working perfectly for me on 11.4, just as they did on 11.3.
NetworkManager is currently broken on 11.4 if: - you've got NFS mounts defined in your fstab (you have to do a manual rcnetwork restart after boot to bring your network up) - you want to use NetworkManager to manage OpenVPN (and presumably VPNC etc) connections (I think the issue is it does not pass your password to the remote server) Both have bugs open on them. The VPN one has been fixed, but only after the 11.4 release. I haven't yet seen any fixes for the no network if you've got NFS mounts problem (it's been around since at least 11.3). So... the long winded answer here is to say.. NW isn't working all that well unless you've got a very vanilla system/setup. C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On 2011-04-04 Martin wrote:
Mandag den 4. april 2011 18:07:16 skrev Jos Poortvliet:
we're already seen as not-innovative and that's becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy. Nobody, after all, will join openSUSE development if it is seen as boring. So it will BE boring just because of that.
We've done pretty OK with our 11.4 release in terms of features, so now people want to know more. Let's try and give them that.
Why? I thought the strategy was making something productive, not hyped "innovation" for the sake of innovation.
I think you're overestimating the importance of "new (distro specific) stuff". People are craving for something that works and is usable. And whenever something changes a little bit half of the users will whine like crazy - not praise the innovation.
Sure, users want something that works. But I'm not asking what improvements we will do in the stability and performance area but what new things we do because marketing needs those to market openSUSE. Unfortunately, journalists, bloggers and in general techies on the web are entirely uninterested in a list of fixed bugs. And without them writing about openSUSE, nobody will KNOW about the new releases and we won't have many users left in a few years. They want features and cool things. Do you know what got openSUSE 11.4 most attention? Tumbleweed. What got us most criticism? We don't innovate. Now for an end user it might not matter that much - but that end user won't HEAR about openSUSE unless we get bloggers to blog and journalists to write. Hence we need, among the improvements to "just work" things, sexy features. Oh and I'm marketing enough to be able to talk a little innovative feature which make things just work (like finally catching up to other distro's in the area of application installation UI's) as a big one. OK?
What innovation does Debian or Gentoo or Arch do? ... They just ship packages, and they don't seem to have much trouble being hyped or attracting contributors.
Indeed, that is why they get little attention and little users. Debian is a bit of an exception in terms of users (mostly thanks to Ubuntu, I would say) but Gentoo is almost dead and ok, Arch is great for the few thousand powerusers it has. We have a million users, 90% of which would never have come if we didn't get any mainstream tech press. And Arch and Gentoo don't get that while Debian is merely mentioned as a "harder to use Ubuntu", if at all.
We should just accept that there are no resources for major innovations (except susestudio and webyast which most users have no interest in) and set realistic, honest goals. We can barely maintain the distro as it is.
Luckily there are people working on noteworthy features,
And I think we'd be much more succesful if we could deliver functional NetworkManager and updater applets for the first time in years, than providing some hyped "innovation".
As I said, we can talk those up if needed. Having things that "just work" are features too. In general, I mostly see comments in this tread from non-developers with feature requests and suggestions for improvements. I appreciate that you guys have opinions and I could surely add 1000 others to that but it is off-topic and just cluttering the discussion. Couldn't you have spread those opinions in either another tread or where it belongs (openFATE)? I don't want to smack down on you but I have 500 unread mails in opensuse-project@ and I bet I'm not the only one. The large amount of irrelevant traffic is what keeps developers OFF this list. We all know multimedia is an issue, we all know we don't package this and that etc, nothing new you guys said... Sorry to say it but it's true. Can we keep the meta discussions in a separate thread (or just skip them as it's nothing new anyway) and focus on what we're doing here? Thanks, Jos
Jos Poortvliet wrote:
On 2011-04-04 Martin wrote:
I think you're overestimating the importance of "new (distro specific) stuff". People are craving for something that works and is usable. And whenever something changes a little bit half of the users will whine like crazy - not praise the innovation.
Sure, users want something that works. But I'm not asking what improvements we will do in the stability and performance area but what new things we do because marketing needs those to market openSUSE. Unfortunately, journalists, bloggers and in general techies on the web are entirely uninterested in a list of fixed bugs. And without them writing about openSUSE, nobody will KNOW about the new releases and we won't have many users left in a few years.
They want features and cool things. Do you know what got openSUSE 11.4 most attention? Tumbleweed. What got us most criticism? We don't innovate.
There is a significant difference between gaining new users and keeping existing users, but I think something "that just works" is equally attractive to both, whereeas that something "that just doesn't work" is probably not very attractive to new users. I'm all for new and cool features, but the focus has to be "that works", not "that looks sexy".
I don't want to smack down on you but I have 500 unread mails in opensuse-project@ and I bet I'm not the only one. The large amount of irrelevant traffic is what keeps developers OFF this list.
It's actually quite easy to ignore things by thread - for instance, all the gsoc stuff is of zero interest to me, so I just hit 'I' on those threads. All done.
We all know multimedia is an issue, we all know we don't package this and that etc, nothing new you guys said... Sorry to say it but it's true.
Can we keep the meta discussions in a separate thread (or just skip them as it's nothing new anyway) and focus on what we're doing here?
Jos, perhaps you could summarize what _you_ think your thread is about? -- Per Jessen, Zürich (17.7°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On 2011-04-06 Per wrote: <snip>
Jos, perhaps you could summarize what _you_ think your thread is about?
Read the mail which I used to start it?!? I asked what features people *are working on or expect to be in the next release so marketing could talk about that* not "gush, what feature would you like to see in the upcoming openSUSE release?" I don't mind people talking about that, surely, I can ignore such threads as you say. But if threads go off-topic all the time, it doesn't work, does it?
Jos Poortvliet wrote:
On 2011-04-06 Per wrote: <snip>
Jos, perhaps you could summarize what _you_ think your thread is about?
Read the mail which I used to start it?!?
Well, clearly people didn't understand your question, so the topic got changed.
I asked what features people *are working on or expect to be in the next release so marketing could talk about that*
I think perhaps you would have had more success with your question if you had phrased it just like that. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (8.5°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
2011/4/12 Jos Poortvliet
I don't mind people talking about that, surely, I can ignore such threads as you say. But if threads go off-topic all the time, it doesn't work, does it?
You are right, it does not work :( Unfortunately this is one of the old problems of ML discussions: people change topic all the time. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Am Montag, 4. April 2011, 18:07:16 schrieb Jos Poortvliet:
Hi all,
But I guess there are other ideas people would like to work on, right? I hope so, you bl**** marketing guy - you know developers hate these questions, right ;-)) ? But no, you're right, bringing that up now.
If you plan to work on something cool, say it. or better, add it to openFATE. Please, people, remember that openFATE should not be a useless "here is your free wish" tool but a collaboration platform where we collect ideas, discuss them, combine them to useful stuff, specify
/me who is annoyed that every ubuntu beta fart without any noteworthy feature still gets a dedicated article on his favorite dutch IT news site while a final openSUSE release doesn't get the slightest mention :(
Often we hear that argument "what can be a good feature for a distribution? People want just something stable to work with, thats all." That thinking is poison, even though its of course true that people want that. But what is "working with a distribution"? From a users perspective its doing all-day stuff like mail, writing, coding, blogging etc. The distro is a tool for that if we look from that perspective. But tools can be improved to help doing the job better, easier, quicker, in a nicer environment. Or a more secure environment. So I like to support Jos in this: we now have the time to think a bit more high level about if there are peaces that would make our distro even more useful, which make it even more convenient, efficient or secure to work with, which adds a missing block which makes my life in front of the computer easier. I just added feature #312205 "Provide anonymous web surfing [easy]" to openFATE as I think thats one of those. Having that would make our distribution more useful and as a result more attractive to users. And things like that can help making a difference. them with technical details and finally, find together to work on them. It can be a used to enroll an idea to find and excite other people to contribute to it. pah! Klaas -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Klaas Freitag wrote:
Often we hear that argument "what can be a good feature for a distribution? People want just something stable to work with, thats all." That thinking is poison, even though its of course true that people want that.
Actually, what people really want is uninterruptive innovation. People DO want changes and new features, but they want them without them causing great upheaval to the way they currently work. If great upheaval IS necessary, people want to know, so they can (pretend to) be in control.
But what is "working with a distribution"? From a users perspective its doing all-day stuff like mail, writing, coding, blogging etc. The distro is a tool for that if we look from that perspective. But tools can be improved to help doing the job better, easier, quicker, in a nicer environment. Or a more secure environment.
Improvements ("better, easier, quicker, nicer") happen in .N releases, revolutions happen in new versions, but that's not how we work :-) -- Per Jessen, Zürich (8.2°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Po 4. Apríl 2011 21:04:55 Klaas Freitag wrote:
Am Montag, 4. April 2011, 18:07:16 schrieb Jos Poortvliet:
Hi all,
But I guess there are other ideas people would like to work on, right?
[skip]
If you plan to work on something cool, say it.
or better, add it to openFATE. Please, people, remember that openFATE should not be a useless "here is your free wish" tool but a collaboration platform where we collect ideas, discuss them, combine them to useful stuff, specify them with technical details and finally, find together to work on them. It can be a used to enroll an idea to find and excite other people to contribute to it.
Unfortunatelly, openFate does not seem to fulfill the role of collaboration platform. I'm wondering for some time why that's the case. Stano -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Monday, April 04, 2011 12:07:16 PM Jos Poortvliet wrote:
Hi all,
I've received a few requests already from ppl asking "what will the next openSUSE release bring". Now I know a few things being worked on, from Webpin2 to the bretzn/appstream stuff. And of course the obvious "latest software packages". But I guess there are other ideas people would like to work on, right?
Now I know, it's not done to advertise things when you don't know if they will be finished. But we're not a company, and if 5 of the 20 projects we say we're working on doesn't make it for the next release, well, that's not so strange. Not advertising anything because "we might not get it done" is bad for us - we're already seen as not-innovative and that's becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy. Nobody, after all, will join openSUSE development if it is seen as boring. So it will BE boring just because of that.
We've done pretty OK with our 11.4 release in terms of features, so now people want to know more. Let's try and give them that.
If you plan to work on something cool, say it. Don't keep hiding under that bloody rock just because you might not have time or because you think it's not important! Please give us marketing peeps something to talk about, so openSUSE will be seen as cool again and you'll see- self fulfilling prophecies can work FOR you too ;-)
grtz
/me who is annoyed that every ubuntu beta fart without any noteworthy feature still gets a dedicated article on his favorite dutch IT news site while a final openSUSE release doesn't get the slightest mention :(
I am not the one to wrte to much because ideas go shattered by the way I am going beyond the central point. Well, everybody here have a good point of view since their own perspective. I mean people claiming funcional features not too much innovative is right. People claiming new features or beautiful features is right too. People claiming for more and better documentation to know how those features or new tools works is rigth too because sometimes is not practical or desireable to ask silly questions on irc channels again and again whenever is well documented. We need to solve everyone issues above despite we are not enough to deal with all issues. We need developers, designers, artworkers, business people, writers, testers, engineers, sys admin, network admins, architects, etc... users (new, intermediate, advanced) . We need to accept we are not open enough to new ideas or changes the way we do our regular stuffs and tasks. We feel too comfortable doing the way we do because it works mostly for our own needs and If really want to take advantages from other people knowledge base we must be open to do something differently, to try another way, to extend our tools beyond us. New projects or innovative projects need spread the voice out to get developers attention too or measuring other users interested in that project or new feature because it would be useful to complete their tasks in a better way. Announcing a new project make expectation and put some pressure to get to the end if it find collaboration or interested people on it.Doing so do whatever is necessary to accomplish it. I know, I know, we need more hands on it. We do not have enough time to deal with all. We are only a bunch enthusiastic people spending our spare time or sometimes our work, family, etc. time in this or other project. We need helping hands and we can get those hands announcing it, writing each phase we are and what we need to accomplish it. Sometimes we do right, sometimes we do not do the best but we are doing what we want to do and doing it everyday. Cheers up, -- Ricardo Chung | openSUSE Linux Ambassador Panama openSUSE 11.4 | KDE 4.6.00 release 6 | Mesa 3D-Nouveau Gallium 7.10 video drivers -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Mon, Apr 4, 2011 at 12:07 PM, Jos Poortvliet
Hi all,
I've received a few requests already from ppl asking "what will the next openSUSE release bring". Now I know a few things being worked on, from Webpin2 to the bretzn/appstream stuff. And of course the obvious "latest software packages". But I guess there are other ideas people would like to work on, right?
== warning == semi long email below Jos, Are you able to see the GSoC ideas at google-melange? If so, this one should be on your list to review: http://www.google-melange.com/gsoc/proposal/review/google/gsoc2011/harshad/1 The original idea from the opensuse gsoc ideas page was: === Use btrfs snapshots in zypper Yum has support for doing snapshots before starting a transaction. If the transaction goes wrong, the state is rollbacked to the snapshot before the transaction. It might be a good idea to implement this feature in zypper for example using snapper - http://gitorious.org/opensuse/snapper Required knowledge: C++ (intermediate) Mentor: MENTOR NEEDED Student: STUDENT NEEDED === Note the lack of a mentor in both the ideas page and in the proposal. (A student just today sent in the proposal to google-melange, so we now have at least one potential student to do the work.) Maybe you can help round a mentor up. I think this is the kind of improvement which can both enhance reliability and be pushed via marketing. I've already said I want to try to get next4 snapshot support into opensuse 12.1 and btrfs snapshots will definitely be there, if not yet production ready. (That is not a GSoC project. Just a normal volunteer effort.) Further, I have offered to be a GSoC mentor on extending xfstests to cover snapshots. The purpose being to increase the automated testing of snapshot functionality. Hopefully for both btrfs and ext4 snapshots. I reached out to the small group of students that worked on the ext4 kernel logic for snapshots to see if one of them would be interested in that GSoC project. (In fact, that contact led to the above zypper / snapshot integration proposal.) I expect another of the students in that group to apply for the xfstests extension project in the next couple days. Once all the proposals are in (they're due by Friday), then the opensuse team will prioritize the projects and pick those it wants to actually follow through on. If you agree with me that snapshots are a great functionality that can be leveraged inside opensuse, then maybe you could weigh in on the decision making process to that effect. Thanks Greg -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Hi *, Jos, On Monday, April 04, 2011 18:07:16 Jos Poortvliet wrote:
I've received a few requests already from ppl asking "what will the next openSUSE release bring". Now I know a few things being worked on, from Webpin2 to the bretzn/appstream stuff. And of course the obvious "latest software packages". But I guess there are other ideas people would like to work on, right?
Quite. :) We (open-slx) are doing a Plasma Active device-independent user experience, based on openSUSE and Plasma. I've just blogged about Plasma Active, as many of you won't have heard of it yet: http://vizzzion.org/blog/2011/04/plasma- active-a-desirable-user-experience-encompassing-the-device-spectrum/ There's more information on communitybase: http://community.kde.org/Plasma/Active .. and a video for the impatient: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GAFfjscVyg In all due modesty, I've an insanely great openSUSE in my hands, running on a tablet computer. :) We're working on it on the opensuse-kde list, and on the active@kde.org list, packages have been developed in the OBS, and the sources are upstream at KDE's Git. There are 11.4-based packages and a live iso. The status is "boots and kinda works", lots of showstoppers. We're targeting our first stable release end of Sept. I understand that non-desktop or -server stuff may not be everybody's cup of tea, but those who would like to lend a hand on making openSUSE rock on all kinds of new devices are very welcome to do so. (See http://community.kde.org/Plasma/Active/Tasks for some inspiration.) Plasma Active is also quite different in its approach to the upstream/downstream: we're a cross-stack, multi-disciplined team (designers, hackers, testers, packagers, ...), working across borders dedicated to create a desirable user experience. As to marketing and communication, please do not overhype this thing at this point. Those that can be of value to our mission should surely know. We've worked out a communication strategy in the Plasma Active team, so if you're planning to do any substantial PR around it right now, I'd much prefer if we first concentrate on making it really rock, and above all that we coordinate it. Cheers, -- sebas http://www.kde.org | http://vizZzion.org | GPG Key ID: 9119 0EF9 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On 2011-04-08 Sebastian wrote:
Hi *, Jos,
On Monday, April 04, 2011 18:07:16 Jos Poortvliet wrote:
I've received a few requests already from ppl asking "what will the next openSUSE release bring". Now I know a few things being worked on, from Webpin2 to the bretzn/appstream stuff. And of course the obvious "latest software packages". But I guess there are other ideas people would like to work on, right?
Quite. :)
We (open-slx) are doing a Plasma Active device-independent user experience, based on openSUSE and Plasma. I've just blogged about Plasma Active, as many of you won't have heard of it yet: http://vizzzion.org/blog/2011/04/plasma- active-a-desirable-user-experience-encompassing-the-device-spectrum/ There's more information on communitybase: http://community.kde.org/Plasma/Active
.. and a video for the impatient: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GAFfjscVyg
In all due modesty, I've an insanely great openSUSE in my hands, running on a tablet computer. :) We're working on it on the opensuse-kde list, and on the active@kde.org list, packages have been developed in the OBS, and the sources are upstream at KDE's Git. There are 11.4-based packages and a live iso. The status is "boots and kinda works", lots of showstoppers. We're targeting our first stable release end of Sept.
I understand that non-desktop or -server stuff may not be everybody's cup of tea, but those who would like to lend a hand on making openSUSE rock on all kinds of new devices are very welcome to do so. (See http://community.kde.org/Plasma/Active/Tasks for some inspiration.)
Plasma Active is also quite different in its approach to the upstream/downstream: we're a cross-stack, multi-disciplined team (designers, hackers, testers, packagers, ...), working across borders dedicated to create a desirable user experience.
As to marketing and communication, please do not overhype this thing at this point. Those that can be of value to our mission should surely know. We've worked out a communication strategy in the Plasma Active team, so if you're planning to do any substantial PR around it right now, I'd much prefer if we first concentrate on making it really rock, and above all that we coordinate it.
Abse-fracking-lutely cool. I've seen some stuff about it on planet KDE already and mentioned this in a column I wrote for linuxuser (UK magazine). It'll end up on the wiki page ;-) At what point do you think this warrants an article for news.o.o?
Cheers,
participants (18)
-
Adam Tauno Williams -
Alberto Passalacqua -
C -
Greg Freemyer -
Henne Vogelsang -
James Mason -
jdd -
Jos Poortvliet -
Kim Leyendecker -
Klaas Freitag -
Markus Slopianka -
Martin Schlander -
Per Jessen -
Rajko M. -
Ricardo Chung -
Sebastian Kügler -
Stanislav Visnovsky -
Vincent Untz