On Tuesday 03 August 2010 20:56:24 Sankar P wrote:

With all due respect, Make "openSUSE the number 1 KDE distro" should be the goal/strategy of openSUSE KDE team and not the entire openSUSE project. For instance, it is foolish to ask the GNOME team to adhere

I agree and would even say this proposal does not build on one of our strengths which is having two tier 1 desktops and support for multiple desktops in general. This proposal will not bring us as project forward and I wouldn't support it either.

to this strategy, given our perennial problem of desktop-wars. Already people in #opensuse-gnome aren't happy with the kde-default decision and this thread is a split-widener imho ;-)

Just curios, why is Meego considered close to KDE, when its default mail client is Evolution, music player is Banshee, browser is Chrome etc.

I guess the train of thought is that QML is the advised application building language for MeeGo and QML is build on top of Qt which is used by KDE as well...

For the record, I don't hate KDE (or for that matter anything). There are some awesome KDE tools like kcachegrind, kscope, kompare etc. that I use almost everyday.

OTOH, "Should do more upstream work such that we can have a say in the direction of the projects" (irrespective of kde/gnome/kernel) is a much more meaningful strategy imho.

I agree with this statement, I just don't think it's a strategy but an activity http://wiki.opensuse.org/openSUSE:What_is_Strategy Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, Program Manager openSUSE, aj@{novell.com,opensuse.org} Twitter: jaegerandi | Identica: jaegerandi SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126

This one sounds a bit weird, I'm afraid. And not only with the KDE related part : = As project, we will not focus on the following anymore = * trying to be the best in 'everything', but in tasks where we already rule * server stuff? The ability, for openSUSE, to be used a server OS is a real big strength imho.. On 3 August 2010 22:15, Jim Henderson wrote:

On Tue, 03 Aug 2010 21:55:27 +0200, Andreas Jaeger wrote:

...

I agree and would even say this proposal does not build on one of our strengths which is having two tier 1 desktops and support for multiple desktops in general.

I agree, Andreas.  I would have a hard time supporting this as well.  I like KDE4 (though I use GNOME myself), but having two tier 1 desktops is a huge differentiator for us.

Jim

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On Wednesday 04 August 2010 14:51:25 Sebastian Kügler wrote:

Besides that, when seeing how much energy is poured into delivering different UIs on the same system, it simply makes me cry. And it makes me wonder how much longer this is sustainable. It might come as a surprise, but it's completely braindead to support two (or more) full UI stacks, with different applications, desktop interfaces and all that. It's in my not so humble opinion one of the major weak points of most Linux-based Operating Systems out there.

If you frame it as maintaining to redundant stacks, it doesn't sound like it would make sense, but I think that's not an accurate description of the situation. We have a rich set of applications using all kinds of different programming languages and toolkits. Providing a platform which runs them great and gives the user at lease some choice is something which openSUSE excels in. Of course there still is room for improvement, but we are well prepared for that, e.g. by having key people of different desktop communities on board. If you look at the UI stacks, there is a lot in common and a lot you actually can't remove (neither removing Gtk nor Qt makes any sense for example). If dedicated people go the extra step of providing a polished desktop experience based on Plasma or GNOME Shell or LXDE or whatever, that's wonderful and satisfies actual user demand. There is really not much to lose there. Of course it's possible to optimize allocation of efforts, and if it's necessary for openSUSE to put effort in replicating an application just to use another UI toolkit is debatable. But I think this discussion is better done at the application and actual use case level than at the desktop community level. -- Cornelius Schumacher -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Wednesday 04 August 2010 15:22:26 Dominique Leuenberger wrote:

Now you assume that you can shift resources around, which is perfectly valid point in a company organization. In a volunteers world this is not going to work.

Does this objection apply only to this proposal? Will -- Will Stephenson, openSUSE Team SUSE LINUX Products GmbH - Nürnberg - AG Nürnberg - HRB 16746 - GF: Markus Rex -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Wednesday 04 August 2010 15:22:26 Dominique Leuenberger wrote:

[...] Now you assume that you can shift resources around, which is perfectly valid point in a company organization. In a volunteers world this is not going to work. If I have to choose between working on project A for distribution X as my only 'work space', then I might as well just define that distribution X is not what I want to invest my time into. so instead of shifting resources and focusing them, you alienate a part of the community, have them leave or get inactive for not fully backing the new 'strategy' up. You might possibly win new resources, once your 'one-desktopto-rule-them-all' is polished enough. But reaching this with less resources will certainly not be so easy. And if the new contributors would join in the state the project is now: why would they not do it just because some other group takes care of a second UI stack?

I agree with Dominique on this, if openSUSE goes this direction, I cannot see a single person working on GNOME switching to working on KDE. We even would lose directly since GNOME developers maintain packages that are needed for both GNOME and KDE or for the complete distribution. The two main desktops both have their place since they handle many things differently, the different philosophies behind them help to bring both forward (competition is good!). I agree that much more could be done in working together with common infrastructure - e.g. like both Akanodi and Evolution developed in the last 12 months their own new IMAP libraries ;-(. Also, I've heard last year that changing the installation to make KDE the default installed desktop would bring us so many KDE developers that help to polish the openSUSE KDE desktop. I'm not seeing that many new faces ;-( Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, Program Manager openSUSE, aj@{novell.com,opensuse.org} Twitter: jaegerandi | Identica: jaegerandi SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126

The two main desktops both have their place since they handle many things differently,

On Wednesday 04 August 2010 15:34:12 Andreas Jaeger wrote: the different philosophies behind them help to bring both

forward (competition is good!). I agree that much more could be done in working together with common infrastructure - e.g. like both Akanodi and Evolution developed in the last 12 months their own new IMAP libraries

Also, I've heard last year that changing the installation to make KDE the default installed desktop would bring us so many KDE developers that help to polish the openSUSE KDE desktop. I'm not seeing

;-(. https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=15711 was the Akonadi project's request 2 years ago to host itself at freedesktop.org, as a first step to becoming a shared standard. It was stonewalled until the team gave up in disgust and was closed WONTFIX with some spurious justifications. After a while you just give up and take your toys home. Unilaterally occupying the freedesktop.org namespace seems to be a privilege reserved for GNOME projects. that many new faces I have 2 responses to that. One is that you're probably not looking in the right place. I grant you that the direct participation of upstream KDE developers in the openSUSE project has been limited. However, openSUSE has become much more popular within the KDE developers which is indirectly increasing the quality of our desktop. This strategy has been highly successful in increasing the popularity of openSUSE among KDE /users/ and has decreased prejudice against openSUSE. Secondly, the implementation and communication of 'default desktop selection' was as weak as humany possible (GNOME still first in the list, Zonker and news.o.o backpedalling while making the announcement) to minimise the hurt to our GNOME community while still respecting the strong demand expressed in the FATE feature. We executed this feature in such a half-hearted way, it's no surprise that it weakened the attraction of the *project* to those the selection was intended to appeal to. Will -- Will Stephenson, openSUSE Team SUSE LINUX Products GmbH - Nürnberg - AG Nürnberg - HRB 16746 - GF: Markus Rex -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Onsdag den 4. august 2010 15:55:55 skrev Will Stephenson:

...

Also, I've heard last year that changing the installation to make KDE the default installed desktop would bring us so many KDE developers that help to polish the openSUSE KDE desktop. I'm not seeing

On Wednesday 04 August 2010 15:34:12 Andreas Jaeger wrote: that many new faces

I'm not seeing any of the doomsday scenarios coming to life as predicted by the GNOME agitators in that debate either >:-)

I have 2 responses to that. One is that you're probably not looking in the right place. I grant you that the direct participation of upstream KDE developers in the openSUSE project has been limited. However, openSUSE has become much more popular within the KDE developers which is indirectly increasing the quality of our desktop. This strategy has been highly successful in increasing the popularity of openSUSE among KDE /users/ and has decreased prejudice against openSUSE.

Yup, even though things take time, especially rebuilding a tarnished reputation, but we already have noticable effects: * You see a lot more blogging about openSUSE, openSUSE screenshots etc. on planetkde. * We have a lot more upstream KDE developers hanging out in #opensuse-kde (about doubled or so in 8 months) * We have the Plasma Netbook reference project based on openSUSE in OBS * And imho we generally have a much more enthusiastic KDE community than we did a year ago.

Secondly, the implementation and communication of 'default desktop selection' was as weak as humany possible (GNOME still first in the list, Zonker and news.o.o backpedalling while making the announcement) to minimise the hurt to our GNOME community while still respecting the strong demand expressed in the FATE feature. We executed this feature in such a half-hearted way, it's no surprise that it weakened the attraction of the *project* to those the selection was intended to appeal to.

Let me add the livecds on software.opensuse.org and the 11.3 Product highlights wiki page to the list. People have to look really, really hard to discover that KDE was actually made the default. In fact, most "evidence" still leads people to believe that GNOME is the main desktop in openSUSE. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Wed, Aug 4, 2010 at 8:14 PM, Martin Schlander wrote:

Onsdag den 4. august 2010 15:55:55 skrev Will Stephenson:

...

...

Also, I've heard last year that changing the installation to make KDE the default installed desktop would bring us so many KDE developers that help to  polish the openSUSE KDE desktop.  I'm not seeing

On Wednesday 04 August 2010 15:34:12 Andreas Jaeger wrote: that many new faces

I'm not seeing any of the doomsday scenarios coming to life as predicted by the GNOME agitators in that debate either >:-)

That is probably because either your vision is clouded by KDE-love or because you are not seeing the right places. Compare the number of tweets/blogs on planetgnome for 11.3 release against say 11.1/11.2 . In my personal observation, the tweets (on openSUSE release etc.) by people (such as in mono project) have reduced to almost nil, ever since the default-desktop decision is made. IIRC the number of blog posts for 11.3 on p.g.o was not more than 2-3 posts whereas it was in the order of dozens for earlier releases. Some of the GNOME ambassadors in my part of the world who used to give openSUSE DVDs, switched to Ubuntu.

...

I have 2 responses to that.  One is that you're probably not looking in the right place.  I grant you that the direct participation of upstream KDE developers in the openSUSE project has been limited.  However, openSUSE has become much more popular within the KDE developers which is indirectly increasing the quality of our desktop.  This strategy has been highly successful in increasing the popularity of openSUSE among KDE /users/ and has decreased prejudice against openSUSE.

Yup, even though things take time, especially rebuilding a tarnished reputation, but we already have noticable effects: * You see a lot more blogging about openSUSE, openSUSE screenshots etc. on planetkde. * We have a lot more upstream KDE developers hanging out in #opensuse-kde (about doubled or so in 8 months) * We have the Plasma Netbook reference project based on openSUSE in OBS * And imho we generally have a much more enthusiastic KDE community than we did a year ago.

...

Secondly, the implementation and communication of 'default desktop selection' was as weak as humany possible (GNOME still first in the list, Zonker and news.o.o backpedalling while making the announcement) to minimise the hurt to our GNOME community while still respecting the strong demand expressed in the FATE feature.  We executed this feature in such a half-hearted way, it's no surprise that it weakened the attraction of the *project* to those the selection was intended to appeal to.

Let me add the livecds on software.opensuse.org and the 11.3 Product highlights wiki page to the list.

People have to look really, really hard to discover that KDE was actually made the default. In fact, most "evidence" still leads people to believe that GNOME is the main desktop in openSUSE. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

-- Sankar P http://psankar.blogspot.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Wednesday August 4 2010 18:08:38 Sankar P wrote:

On Wed, Aug 4, 2010 at 8:14 PM, Martin Schlander

wrote:

...

Onsdag den 4. august 2010 15:55:55 skrev Will Stephenson:

...

On Wednesday 04 August 2010 15:34:12 Andreas Jaeger wrote:

...

Also, I've heard last year that changing the installation

to make KDE the

...

default installed desktop would bring us so many KDE

developers that help

...

to polish the openSUSE KDE desktop. I'm not seeing

that many new faces

I'm not seeing any of the doomsday scenarios coming to life as predicted by the GNOME agitators in that debate either >:-)

That is probably because either your vision is clouded by KDE-love or because you are not seeing the right places. Compare the number of tweets/blogs on planetgnome for 11.3 release against say 11.1/11.2 . In my personal observation, the tweets (on openSUSE release etc.) by people (such as in mono project) have reduced to almost nil, ever since the default-desktop decision is made. IIRC the number of blog posts for 11.3 on p.g.o was not more than 2-3 posts whereas it was in the order of dozens for earlier releases. Some of the GNOME ambassadors in my part of the world who used to give openSUSE DVDs, switched to Ubuntu.

I'm sorry but if they switched the distro because of some checkbox ticked by default during installation then it is probably good riddance imho. I don't use Gnome but I'm against that proposal too because it was always one of the strengths of openSUSE to have excellent support for multiple desktop environments but to make such a fuzz about some preselection is just ..... Back then it was decided to use whatever as default what is used by the majority which is fair in my book.

...

...

I have 2 responses to that. One is that you're probably not looking in the right place. I grant you that the direct participation of upstream KDE developers in the openSUSE project has been limited. However, openSUSE has become much more popular within the KDE developers which is indirectly increasing the quality of our desktop. This strategy has been highly successful in increasing the popularity of openSUSE among KDE /users/ and has decreased prejudice against openSUSE.

Yup, even though things take time, especially rebuilding a tarnished reputation, but we already have noticable effects: * You see a lot more blogging about openSUSE, openSUSE screenshots etc. on planetkde. * We have a lot more upstream KDE developers hanging out in #opensuse-kde (about doubled or so in 8 months) * We have the Plasma Netbook reference project based on openSUSE in OBS * And imho we generally have a much more enthusiastic KDE community than we did a year ago.

...

Secondly, the implementation and communication of 'default desktop selection' was as weak as humany possible (GNOME still first in the list, Zonker and news.o.o backpedalling while making the announcement) to minimise the hurt to our GNOME community while still respecting the strong demand expressed in the FATE feature. We executed this feature in such a half-hearted way, it's no surprise that it weakened the attraction of the *project* to those the selection was intended to appeal to.

Let me add the livecds on software.opensuse.org and the 11.3 Product highlights wiki page to the list.

People have to look really, really hard to discover that KDE was actually made the default. In fact, most "evidence" still leads people to believe that GNOME is the main desktop in openSUSE. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Wed, Aug 4, 2010 at 9:51 PM, Stephan Kleine wrote:

On Wednesday August 4 2010 18:08:38 Sankar P wrote:

...

On Wed, Aug 4, 2010 at 8:14 PM, Martin Schlander

wrote:

...

Onsdag den 4. august 2010 15:55:55 skrev Will Stephenson:

...

On Wednesday 04 August 2010 15:34:12 Andreas Jaeger wrote:

...

Also, I've heard last year that changing the installation

to make KDE the

...

default installed desktop would bring us so many KDE

developers that help

...

to  polish the openSUSE KDE desktop.  I'm not seeing

that many new faces

I'm not seeing any of the doomsday scenarios coming to life as predicted by the GNOME agitators in that debate either >:-)

That is probably because either your vision is clouded by KDE-love or because you are not seeing the right places. Compare the number of tweets/blogs on planetgnome for 11.3 release against say 11.1/11.2 . In my personal observation, the tweets (on openSUSE release etc.) by people (such as in mono project) have reduced to almost nil, ever since the default-desktop decision is made. IIRC the number of blog posts for 11.3 on p.g.o was not more than 2-3 posts whereas it was in the order of dozens for earlier releases. Some of the GNOME ambassadors in my part of the world who used to give openSUSE DVDs, switched to Ubuntu.

I'm sorry but if they switched the distro because of some checkbox ticked by default during installation then it is probably good riddance imho.

I don't use Gnome but I'm against that proposal too because it was always one of the strengths of openSUSE to have excellent support for multiple desktop environments but to make such a fuzz about some preselection is just ..... Back then it was decided to use whatever as default what is used by the majority which is fair in my book.

Jan/Stephan, So you expect a "GNOME ambassador" to give a linux DVD with KDE-preselected ;-) ? The people who changed distros were GNOME ambassadors in the first place and not even openSUSE-ambassadors. They were promoting openSUSE because Novell is associated with openSUSE and they are [ex-]contributors to Novell/SUSE based open-source projects like go-OO, Evolution, Mono etc. and GNOME in general. Naturally, They shifted to a different distro once the KDE-default decision was made and chose the most popular distro. However, I am not planning to ask "Let us make GNOME the default desktop in oS so that these upstream GNOME devs will be happy." Because they are less in number and more importantly, dont contribute to oS directly. The point that I wanted to highlight is : The kde-default decision is not without its adverse effects. Single digit blog-posts in p.g.o is definitely an area of concern. -- Sankar P http://psankar.blogspot.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Wed, Aug 4, 2010 at 11:34 PM, Jan Engelhardt wrote:

On Wednesday 2010-08-04 19:34, Sankar P wrote:

...

So you expect a "GNOME ambassador" to give a linux DVD with KDE-preselected ;-) ?

Oh if _that_ is what it's all about, we can easily procure for that, without having to go into the default desktop debate. - Just create a DVD image with GNOME preselected.

None preselected is what I will ask for ;-) But is there a way to get such an image ? I thought live-cd and studio are the only options for non-KDE selected images. It will be cool. -- Sankar P http://psankar.blogspot.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

...

Just create a DVD image with GNOME preselected.

simply spread the gnome live cd!! jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://pizzanetti.fr -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Wednesday 2010-08-04 21:09, DenverD wrote:

Jan Engelhardt wrote:

...

On Wednesday 2010-08-04 19:34, Sankar P wrote:

...

So you expect a "GNOME ambassador" to give a linux DVD with KDE-preselected ;-) ?

Oh if _that_ is what it's all about, we can easily procure for that, without having to go into the default desktop debate. - Just create a DVD image with GNOME preselected.

or how about NONE preselected, force the installer to choose one (or more to install)....and, since sizable percentage of installers are Redmond Ship Jumpers and have NO idea about the differences of the the different environments, include a paragraph (more or less) on each..

Dialog that appears beforehand: """ Please describe yourself! ( ) Leet - preselect NONE ( ) Lame - preselect something """ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Wed, 2010-08-04 at 15:55 +0200, Will Stephenson wrote:

Secondly, the implementation and communication of 'default desktop selection' was as weak as humany possible (GNOME still first in the list, Zonker and news.o.o backpedalling while making the announcement) to minimise the hurt to our GNOME community while still respecting the strong demand expressed in the FATE feature. We executed this feature in such a half-hearted way, it's no surprise that it weakened the attraction of the *project* to those the selection was intended to appeal to.

Will

But why does popularity have to be incumbent on making KDE the default? Why can't openSUSE's implementation of KDE be popular on its own merit? I don't see how the existence of GNOME in openSUSE lessens the ability of openSUSE-KDE to be the best implementation of KDE out there. Shouldn't the KDE Community be appreciative of the quality of KDE itself on openSUSE? Maybe its a marketing thing in that we haven't done enough to highlight how great KDE already is on openSUSE? It just seems to me that we gain nothing if we go the "favoritism" route as community should strive to be the best it can be regardless of whether the default was KDE or GNOME. Bryen -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Wed, 2010-08-04 at 16:59 +0200, Martin Schlander wrote:

Onsdag den 4. august 2010 16:56:02 skrev Bryen M. Yunashko:

...

On Wed, 2010-08-04 at 15:55 +0200, Will Stephenson wrote:

...

Secondly, the implementation and communication of 'default desktop selection' was as weak as humany possible (GNOME still first in the list, Zonker and news.o.o backpedalling while making the announcement) to minimise the hurt to our GNOME community while still respecting the strong demand expressed in the FATE feature. We executed this feature in such a half-hearted way, it's no surprise that it weakened the attraction of the *project* to those the selection was intended to appeal to.

But why does popularity have to be incumbent on making KDE the default? Why can't openSUSE's implementation of KDE be popular on its own merit? I don't see how the existence of GNOME in openSUSE lessens the ability of openSUSE-KDE to be the best implementation of KDE out there. Shouldn't the KDE Community be appreciative of the quality of KDE itself on openSUSE?

The reasons for making KDE the default were discussed endlessly at the time.

Look up the disucssions again in the archive if you can't remember. No reason to redo that whole thing now.

I don't need to look back at the discussion last year to ask a very simple no-brainer question. It defies logic to me that the only reason a contributor will come forth is simply because of whether there's a default or not. If that's the pivotal reason, then one would assume there are *no* contributors now in GNOME because GNOME isn't the default and thus everyone in openSUSE-GNOME quit. A better strategy is not to make KDE the primary focus, but to make KDE the best it can be on openSUSE. Likewise, making GNOME, LXDE, and XFCE also the best it can be on openSUSE. Resources are not being shifted away from one to the other. We're not going to create a strategy that requires people participating on other desktops to switch. So what does this strategy proposal really gain us? Just words. Bryen -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Onsdag den 4. august 2010 17:11:10 skrev Bryen M. Yunashko:

I don't need to look back at the discussion last year to ask a very simple no-brainer question. It defies logic to me that the only reason a contributor will come forth is simply because of whether there's a default or not. If that's the pivotal reason, then one would assume there are *no* contributors now in GNOME because GNOME isn't the default and thus everyone in openSUSE-GNOME quit.

A better strategy is not to make KDE the primary focus, but to make KDE the best it can be on openSUSE. Likewise, making GNOME, LXDE, and XFCE also the best it can be on openSUSE. Resources are not being shifted away from one to the other. We're not going to create a strategy that requires people participating on other desktops to switch.

So what does this strategy proposal really gain us? Just words.

You're mixing things up completely. Noone except possibly Sebastian is supporting this strategy proposal in any way. Not even the guy who proposed it is here to defend it. The decision about preselecting KDE and the effects of that decision is a completely different topic - which is only being touched because AJ brought it up. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Am Freitag, 6. August 2010, 01:32:28 schrieb Jos Poortvliet:

On Wednesday 04 August 2010 17:11:10 Bryen M. Yunashko wrote:

...

I don't need to look back at the discussion last year to ask a very simple no-brainer question. It defies logic to me that the only reason a contributor will come forth is simply because of whether there's a default or not. If that's the pivotal reason, then one would assume there are *no* contributors now in GNOME because GNOME isn't the default and thus everyone in openSUSE-GNOME quit.

A better strategy is not to make KDE the primary focus, but to make KDE the best it can be on openSUSE. Likewise, making GNOME, LXDE, and XFCE also the best it can be on openSUSE. Resources are not being shifted away from one to the other. We're not going to create a strategy that requires people participating on other desktops to switch.

Now you know my position on this strategy but this isn't completely right. Sometimes, the needs of desktops clash - and what do you choose in such cases? That's where an official focus helps. In Ubuntu, KDE always looses out because GNOME is the default; same with Fedora. Doesn't mean the KDE implementations on Fedora or Ubuntu suck but they're not as good as they could be (which anyone who has used them will agree with).

...

So what does this strategy proposal really gain us? Just words.

A base to make decisions on in SOME area's. Not all area's, which is one reason why it's not a good strategy. Another would be loosing a lot of good people, as was mentioned here before - the little response to the openSUSE release on planet GNOME sucks.

To be honest opensuse releases never stirred as much attention as Fedora or Ubuntu. Ubuntu has the huge loudmouth crowd behind them and Fedora got the exciting new features people look forward to but don't really want on their working machine just yet. And there is openSUSE, getting more solid with every release, beeing the nice working horse that delivers but doesn't get people overly excited. No comments on lwn about the release [1], the promised review from ArsTechnica isn't out 3 weeks after release, their news entry [2] also looks pretty unexcited. The DistroWatch review count for the latest releases: Ubuntu 30 Fedora 10 openSUSE 5 Is it missing marketing? Maybe, but for myself what I was most impressed with every new opensuse release is how polished most of it is, the version number of most components don't excite me as I just got them of OBS way earlier. Karsten [1] http://lwn.net/Articles/396189/#Comments [2] http://arstechnica.com/open-source/news/2010/07/opensuse-113-arrives-with- experimental-btrfs-support.ars?comments=1#comments-bar -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Wed, Aug 4, 2010 at 7:25 PM, Will Stephenson wrote:

...

The two main desktops both have their place since they handle many things differently,

On Wednesday 04 August 2010 15:34:12 Andreas Jaeger wrote: the different philosophies behind them help to bring both

...

forward (competition is good!).  I agree that much more could be done in working together with common infrastructure - e.g. like both Akanodi and Evolution developed in the last 12 months their own new IMAP libraries

;-(.

https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=15711 was the Akonadi project's request 2 years ago to host itself at freedesktop.org, as a first step to becoming a shared standard.  It was stonewalled until the team gave up in disgust and was closed WONTFIX with some spurious justifications. After a while you just give up and take your toys home.  Unilaterally occupying the freedesktop.org namespace seems to be a privilege reserved for GNOME projects.

...

Also, I've heard last year that changing the installation to make KDE the default installed desktop would bring us so many KDE developers that help to  polish the openSUSE KDE desktop.  I'm not seeing that many new faces

I have 2 responses to that.  One is that you're probably not looking in the right place.  I grant you that the direct participation of upstream KDE developers in the openSUSE project has been limited.  However, openSUSE has become much more popular within the KDE developers which is indirectly increasing the quality of our desktop.  This strategy has been highly successful in increasing the popularity of openSUSE among KDE /users/ and has decreased prejudice against openSUSE.

Secondly, the implementation and communication of 'default desktop selection' was as weak as humany possible (GNOME still first in the list, Zonker and news.o.o backpedalling while making the announcement) to minimise the hurt to our GNOME community while still respecting the strong demand expressed in the FATE feature.  We executed this feature in such a half-hearted way, it's no surprise that it weakened the attraction of the *project* to those the selection was intended to appeal to.

I have no idea about freedesktop politics. So I will stay away from it and will believe in your words. However, commenting about Zonker is something I strongly differ. I see the decision to make KDE-Default as just of Michael Loeffler's and not community's. At that time, There was too much argument going on in openSUSE project with no conclusion. So to keep things quiet, Michael Loeffler made a decision (after discussing with the board as he claims), which he believed made sense as per the rules of democracy. It was never a community's decision. Even the oS-GNOME core team wont accept it is the right decision (OTOH, A Diversified community can never make a mutually agreeable decision on competing matters - Sankar's law #1983) I dont think anyone, even oS-board members, will agree that "kde-default" is fair for GNOME. Any extreme-marketing for this decision, if done by Zonker, would've put him in trouble with the GNOME community as it was not a community's decision. Given the perennial disease of openSUSE (desktop-wars), I believe Zonker did a stellar job without taking sides ever and staying neutral. The impact of "KDE-default" decision by itself should have been enough to steal-hearts from the KDE upstream. If any viral marketing spree was needed beyond that, it should have been done by the openSUSE-KDE community and not by Zonker. All the people who happily up-voted in FATE, argued passionately in oS-project, should've written blog post(s) or mails and put it in KDE planet and marketing lists. If kde-default decision has failed to steal-hearts, it is either oS-KDE community's marketing failure or the kde upstream is really not bothered about openSUSE. It is unfair to cite Zonker's marketing commitment as a reason. -- Sankar P http://psankar.blogspot.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Wednesday August 4 2010 19:09:12 Sankar P wrote: <snip />

However, commenting about Zonker is something I strongly differ. I see the decision to make KDE-Default as just of Michael Loeffler's and not community's. At that time, There was too much argument going on in openSUSE project with no conclusion. So to keep things quiet, Michael Loeffler made a decision (after discussing with the board as he claims), which he believed made sense as per the rules of democracy. It was never a community's decision. Even the oS-GNOME core team wont accept it is the right decision (OTOH, A Diversified community can never make a mutually agreeable decision on competing matters - Sankar's law #1983)

I don't think it is fair to claim that michl decided that on his own. To simply put an end to that endless "discussion" it was simply decided to make whatever gets used by the majority the default which is fair IMHO (and also is a community decision since the majority of said community uses KDE atm). Once the majority uses Gnome, or something else, it will get changed again and I wont loose a tear about having to do an additional click during installation. regards, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Wednesday 04 August 2010 16:18:39 Guido Berhoerster wrote:

[..]

...

All of this does equally apply to the other proposals with a narrow focus (i.e. the "cloud and mobile" and "base for derivatives").

I don't see the focus of those as narrow as this one, Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, Program Manager openSUSE, aj@{novell.com,opensuse.org} Twitter: jaegerandi | Identica: jaegerandi SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126

Onsdag den 4. august 2010 17:06:38 skrev Stephan Kulow:

What I really wonder: is this strategy discussion worth the whole of bad energy it creates? ;(

The project really, really needs a clear identity and direction. Whatever the cost (almost) ;-) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Onsdag den 4. august 2010 17:59:00 skrev jdd:

Le 04/08/2010 17:34, Martin Schlander a écrit :

...

The project really, really needs a clear identity and direction.

Whatever the cost (almost) ;-)

it did well for more than 10 years without one, so it may not be that important, or the strategy is simply : "do a good job with nice guys"

and it works

Not true. S.u.S.E./SUSE Linux had a clear identity and direction. As a stable, polished, powerful, easy to use, professional distro. Everybody knew what to expect, and they got exactly that, and they loved it. And I'm sure developers knew exactly what direction to move in too. The current muddy and confusing state has only been around for about 4-5 years. Starting somewhere between the Novell takeover and the creation of the openSUSE project. And steadily getting worse as the distro strays further and further from its roots. And the damage is enormous. Effective marketing is downright impossible and development is all over the place. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Le 05/08/2010 09:02, DenverD a écrit :

early 11.x series (especially with KDE4), i must agree completely with Martin!

but atm the other distros did no choice, it was kde4 only (or gnome only). Only openSUSE kept kde3 and why blame openSUSE for kde decision?? that's a nonsense jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://pizzanetti.fr -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Torsdag den 5. august 2010 09:19:19 skrev jdd:

Le 05/08/2010 08:08, Martin Schlander a écrit :

...

Onsdag den 4. august 2010 17:59:00 skrev jdd:

...

Le 04/08/2010 17:34, Martin Schlander a écrit :

...

The project really, really needs a clear identity and direction.

Whatever the cost (almost) ;-)

it did well for more than 10 years without one, so it may not be that important, or the strategy is simply : "do a good job with nice guys"

and it works

Not true.

S.u.S.E./SUSE Linux had a clear identity and direction. As a stable, polished, powerful, easy to use, professional distro. Everybody knew what to expect, and they got exactly that, and they loved it. And I'm sure developers knew exactly what direction to move in too.

The current muddy and confusing state has only been around for about 4-5 years. Starting somewhere between the Novell takeover and the creation of the openSUSE project. And steadily getting worse as the distro strays further and further from its roots. And the damage is enormous. Effective marketing is downright impossible and development is all over the place.

I think this is plain wrong, and I use SuSE till 5.2

But do you read news articles and reviews? Or do you go to support forums, support irc channels or lug meetings? No two people on the planet have the same idea of what openSUSE is about. If you take Debian, Fedora, Ubuntu etc., everybody has a pretty good idea about the "mission" and focus of those distros. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Torsdag den 5. august 2010 11:19:22 skrev jdd:

Le 05/08/2010 10:44, Martin Schlander a écrit :

...

But do you read news articles and reviews? Or do you go to support forums, support irc channels or lug meetings?

yes, atm 2hours a day and most people are pleased by what they find (including mandriva users)

I want to come to where you are :-) Cuz whereever I go I see more people leaving than I see coming. And most of the people who haven't left (yet) are a lot less happy than they used to be. And since I've been the biggest openSUSE zealot north of Nürnberg for years, _everybody_ comes and tells me about their problems, as if it was my fault or something :-| I'm talking about the silent majority of casual users here of course, who don't have a clue about the project internals, but just see a product of steadily declining quality. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Thursday 2010-08-05 12:31, jdd wrote:

...

Cuz whereever I go I see more people leaving than I see coming. And most of the people who haven't left (yet) are a lot less happy than they used to be.

And since I've been the biggest openSUSE zealot north of Nürnberg for years,

may be the germany situation is special, as openSUSE is more commonn there than anywhere else in the world. When you are number one you can only decrease :-(

That said I often try other distros and always go back to suse

Some distros have their purpose (i.e. usually target-specific appliances), but some others you just want to run away from! :) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Thursday 2010-08-05 13:23, Martin Schlander wrote:

...

may be the germany situation is special, as openSUSE is more commonn there than anywhere else in the world. When you are number one you can only decrease :-(

I'm in Denmark :-)

And here Ubuntu (+derivatives like Mint) have at least 60% of the home user linux market, maybe even more. And steadily growing.

"Something is rotten in the state of Denmark." :-D -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Le 05/08/2010 13:36, C a écrit :

On Thu, Aug 5, 2010 at 13:23, Martin Schlander wrote:

...

I'm in Denmark :-)

And here Ubuntu (+derivatives like Mint) have at least 60% of the home user linux market, maybe even more. And steadily growing.

And therein lies a question... why? Why is Ubuntu gaining so much at the expense of others like openSUSE?

may be because the cd was available at no cost by post office ! but this is no longer, so will see is ubuntu still have so any success jdd NB: and it's a cd, not a dvd -- http://www.dodin.net http://pizzanetti.fr -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Thursday 2010-08-05 13:36, C wrote:

On Thu, Aug 5, 2010 at 13:23, Martin Schlander wrote:

...

I'm in Denmark :-)

And here Ubuntu (+derivatives like Mint) have at least 60% of the home user linux market, maybe even more. And steadily growing.

And therein lies a question... why?

Because, as has been pointed out earlier, they just pick whatever lies around. Usually that's Windows, sometimes it's its cousin Ubuntu.

Outside of our little openSUSE Ivory Tower, I'm seeing the impact of this. Commercial vendors that used to fully support openSUSE are dropping it from their lineup of supported distributions...

Enterprise plays a role in that too. From the 11.3 release party in Nürnberg I overheard that because there is no SUSE equivalent to RHN that people are wandering off to Redhat.

I got into a discussion about this with support at a company that recently dropped openSUSE from their lineup. For them it came down to work vs return. They said in the past few years openSUSE went from being a significant portion of their paying customer base to pretty much zero. The way the conversation went, I have a feeling I'm the only openSUSE customer they've got left :-( I'm the only one who complained to support. With essentially zero customers on openSUSE, there was no point in providing an RPM anymore.

Now they can have a Build Service and provide an RPM for almost no extra cost besides a %if 0%{suse_version}. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Thursday 2010-08-05 14:27, C wrote:

On Thu, Aug 5, 2010 at 14:22, Jan Engelhardt wrote:

...

Now they can have a Build Service and provide an RPM for almost no extra cost besides a %if 0%{suse_version}.

Can they use that for closed source commercial products?

They can do whatever they want with the local OBS. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

I think we could make some sort of summary, I don't see many new argument recently. Here my view: I beg you not to start again a flame war, This post is to try a comparison between the various versions. And by the way I have again read all the proposals http://en.opensuse.org/Portal:Strategy Initial Strategy Proposals These strategy are very well built and meaningfull. However I think they are a bit too early in time. They will probably have to be rethinked for a near future and we will probably have to choose one, say in 5 years from today... * Home for developers This is the worst situation plan. Cloud computing get a monopoly and nobody care of using his own cloud, so what the f.. could you do of an OS. Most computer only give a good browser. May be there are still some developpers for the cloud makers... and the openSUSE cloud (hosting service) may be one on the market... nearly no more linux distro in the wild :-( * Mobile and cloud ready distribution This is the most realistic future if no other thechnology come around fast. cloud computing is everywhere, but most people want they own cloud. Personal computers are used only for games, and mobile devices are the only mail/web/multiedia device really used. But may be it's a bit too early to work only in this direction ? * Base for derivatives It's the more apealing proposal for the future, and the direction we take for now (Studio...), but the name is bad. It should be "LTS base, Kde, Gnome, server and other derivatives" :-) so anybody is glad. Additional Strategy Proposals: * openSUSE – the #1 KDE distribution Just too offensive and disconnected from Novell use (IMHO) * openSUSE – For the productive poweruser This one also is appealing, and very near from other "near standard" proposals, but here also, the name is not good. should be "for the curious user" or "for the demanding user". I'm not english fluent enough to find a correct word, but we should find one. In fact we try to mean "every user no satisfied by windows :-)))", that mean or some computer experience by himself or having somebody experienced to help. * openSUSE – The Linux distribution platform I don't see how we can attract users here, or is it simply the same as developper one? * openSUSE – Status Quo, and quantified so For me it's very near from the productive one because all our users are in a way or an other productive users, so this is already what we do. jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://pizzanetti.fr -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Thursday 2010-08-05 16:48, jdd wrote:

* openSUSE – The Linux distribution platform I don't see how we can attract users here, or is it simply the same as developper one?

(It's not the same.) LDP would shift focus towards a core system, while DEV shifts focus towards development tools. That makes me wonder how much core LDP would go - as I probably mentioned earlier, Windows is such a core system without anything, not even a compiler. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Friday 2010-08-06 02:02, Jos Poortvliet wrote:

openSUSE lacks a clear direction, Ubuntu does not. So Ubuntu has a very clear image - anyone can see what it is about. And it helps them.

But what's a direction worth if the put-together result is subpar.

Meanwhile I also would like to 'protest' against the idea you put forward that commercial parties are dumping SUSE. Novell is far, far, far more successful than Ubuntu at getting OEM deals,

But still not as successful as Redhat.. ;)

for example. The only big deal Ubuntu ever got was Dell (previously Novell) and they only got it because they basically gave it away for free (Novell didn't).

What did they actually give away for free? Certainly not a subscription / voucher for free phone support (which would normally come with the boxed version of opensuse)? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Am Freitag, 6. August 2010, 22:59:35 schrieb jdd:

Red Hat is how many years older? and it's the first on the market.

RedHat as a company is 2 years younger then the old S.u.S.E. GmbH. RedHat published it's first very own Distribution in 1994, SuSE in 1994 with a modified Slackware release, so I doubt you can single down impact or expertise on age in business... Do fact checking before trying to score a point. Karsten -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Saturday 07 August 2010 09:56:22 Karsten König wrote:

Am Freitag, 6. August 2010, 22:59:35 schrieb jdd:

...

Red Hat is how many years older? and it's the first on the market.

RedHat as a company is 2 years younger then the old S.u.S.E. GmbH. RedHat published it's first very own Distribution in 1994, SuSE in 1994 with a modified Slackware release, so I doubt you can single down impact or expertise on age in business... Do fact checking before trying to score a point.

While on that, Red Hat has left the Desktop market years ago. Afaik they don't have any desktop OEM deals (unlike Novell) so when it comes to the Desktop my guess would be that Novell is probably the biggest out there. Red Hat is bigger on servers, yes, that's where it makes its $$$. Novell is working on that :D Btw this has gone off-topic enough, maybe we should go back focussing on the strategic discussion?

Karsten

CHeers, Jos

On 08/08/2010 00:47, Administrator wrote:

...

may be we should emphasis more on the relation between openSUSE and SLES/SLED (at least if Novell is to still be our main sponsor)

It'd need careful discussion with Novell. The message must work both sides. "oS is a free version of SLES / SLED" cuts into their sales. "oS is a reduced version of SELD / SELS" downgrades the quality of oS.

David

Could you please restate what you just wrote above in a way a normal person could understand, please? Thank you. BC -- If apathy is increasing where does it come from? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Sat, 07 Aug 2010 17:24:41 +0200, jdd wrote:

don't forget SLES/SLED are free, only the support is for money

And the updates, don't forget that essentially what you're buying is a subscription that gets you the updates. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Friday 06 Aug 2010 12:02:16 Jos Poortvliet wrote:

On Thursday 05 August 2010 13:36:30 C wrote:

...

On Thu, Aug 5, 2010 at 13:23, Martin Schlander wrote:

...

I'm in Denmark :-)

And here Ubuntu (+derivatives like Mint) have at least 60% of the home user linux market, maybe even more. And steadily growing.

And therein lies a question... why? Why is Ubuntu gaining so much at the expense of others like openSUSE? Maybe because it's dead easy to install. I am amazed at how well 10.04 works, and how easy it was to install... openSUSE on the other hand... not so easy. It's not hard, but t's certainly a lot more involved and cryptic than Ubuntu is to install and use... ease of use.. ease of install go a LONG way towards acceptance and uptake.

<snip>

Imho the problem is more marketing than quality - but marketing also depends heavily on a clear and consise message. KDE marketing for example got a huge boost from the KDE 4 series: a strong focus on innovation and new things. Now the actual product wasn't that great, initially, but ppl saw the vision and we had literally hundreds and hundreds of new developers join the KDE community, while the GNOME numbers kept the same or even shrunk a bit at that time.

I'm with Jos on this one, it's about marketing, nothing more, nothing less. People who want to try Linux on the Desktop think in terms of Brand! Ubuntu has high brand recognition. Unsophisticated Desktop users don't think "I want Linux", they think more along the lines of "I want an alternative to windows" The default to them is either Apple or Ubuntu because to them Linux IS Ubuntu. That's a function of brand recognition. Ubuntu have done their marketing well lifting their brand recognition

openSUSE lacks a clear direction, Ubuntu does not. So Ubuntu has a very clear image - anyone can see what it is about. And it helps them.

It's less about clear image than about a distinctive, recognisable image. Firefox and Ubuntu have both done well in the visibility stakes. High recognition, warm colours and Ubuntu added a good back story. That's good marketing and at the sharp end of that is the idea that "Ubuntu is the only economical alternative to windows". Are we then competing with Ubuntu, on one level yes we are, it is one of the distinctive attributes of the bazaar model we are competing against but with each other. But as far as the Simple enduser is concerned our two stalls are for all intents and purposes selling the same thing, just different coloured wrapping paper. One of the basic tenets of marketing: "Find your point of difference" One of the reasons I like the idea of the "No 1 KDE Distro" is it gives us a point of difference that the enduser can see and thus easily sets us apart from Ubuntu. Given no point of difference and no price differential then our Enduser is going to go with the recognised brand. I'm keen on the Retail Boxes because that also allows us a price differential, and I believe in our favour. A price gives a consumer security, there has been an exchange of values. The consumer has made a decision that the value he is receiving in the boxed set is equivalent to the amount of exchange he has made in the purchase. He has by that action placed a value on it. Another simple marketing tool is "Competitor Analysis." What are their Pros and Cons Pro side High Brand recognition Simple install Fits on a CD and this is a biggy - Local community support It's what makes windows so dominant, jo blo next door, or brother or kids can help out and give support. Ubuntu does this better than we do. on the Con Side Installation gives the user very little choice media is limited to a CD to someone who doesn't have broadband this is an issue during install, (however the CD does allow for a fully functional system.) Limited to Desktop only unless you get separate media So therefore, you attack the weak points and you strengthen against their strong points. We need to increase our brand recognition..... no argument there, although there maybe debate as to how we achieve that, I have some ideas but that's for another thread. Set our install up so it's possible to get a functioning install with minimal interaction from the user. That means a default desktop: KDE to emphasise the point of difference. /However, given the size of modern harddrives I see no reason why KDE, Gnome, XFCE, icewm and Window Maker can't all be installed if the install script detects an HD over say 160 GB. Then on the Login screen make the ability to choose more obvious, an icon for each desktop. Lets live by the: "Have a lot of fun". I did, just once, set my wife's desktop default to Window Maker with one of the Goth style naked lady backgrounds! :D So we have a default but with choice!/ Additionally common proprietary codecs and drivers should be on the DVD or at first launch a script should launch asking the user if they want Video and Audio codecs installed so they can play their windows media files. Graphics drivers would be good, but the Nvidia ones have been a bit too variable, so for reliabilities sake..... For OEM, that would obviously be a different issue That's not a big marketing thing but it is a selling point and good selling points that work, turn into good marketing later as word of mouth kicks in. <snip>

So again. Nobody knows this stuff (I know I didn't until a few hours ago, darn) and that's why Ubuntu seems so popular. Reality, while nobody has hard numbers, is most likely different. And I hope now that I'm here the openSUSE marketing team can work more with the Novell marketing team, and get the word out on how populuar our dear Geeko (both openSUSE and SLED) really is!

...

Anyway... this is beyond the scope of the original discussion.

Yep, and I made it worse, sorry about that... But I wanted to make clear that it ain't that bad and we can reverse it. Having a clear strategy, whatever it turns out to be, will help with that. And as I've kind-of said before, I support a focus on powerusers and developers or the cloud/mobile one. Both bring the opportunity of a clear direction throughout the stack and much potential for improvement and growth. And both are easy to market ;-)

A word of caution: "Easy" to market often ends up in lousy uptake. Find the area of achievable growth. Define the demographic, then create to pitch at that target market. Strategies that fail are those that try to be all things to all people and thus lose focus. Define your goals, test results against those goals and modify to suit. simple really Cheers G Apologies for the length of this :/ -- Graham Lauder, OpenOffice.org MarCon (Marketing Contact) NZ http://marketing.openoffice.org/contacts.html OpenOffice.org Migration and training Consultant. Ambassador for OpenSUSE Linux on your Desktop INGOTs Assessor Trainer (International Grades in Office Technologies) www.theingots.org.nz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Tuesday 10 August 2010 07:26:21 C wrote:

On Tue, Aug 10, 2010 at 04:04, Graham Lauder wrote:

...

People who want to try Linux on the Desktop think in terms of Brand! Ubuntu has high brand recognition. Unsophisticated Desktop users don't think "I want Linux", they think more along the lines of "I want an alternative to windows" The default to them is either Apple or Ubuntu because to them Linux IS Ubuntu. That's a function of brand recognition. Ubuntu have done their marketing well lifting their brand recognition

This concept of Linux IS Ubuntu is so all pervasive that everywhere you go on the web to find software, research how to do something... it's Ubuntu Ubuntu Ubuntu. Software vendors always provide Ubuntu builds, and it's a tossup if they provide an openSUSE build.... some do, most don't. Solutions to common problems and issues... you can count on there being an Ubuntu solution.. openSUSE solutions might be there, but they are harder to locate, and often very very outdated (ie for 9.1).

Brand recognition is a major factor... and we're missing that.

...

It's less about clear image than about a distinctive, recognisable image. Firefox and Ubuntu have both done well in the visibility stakes. High recognition, warm colours and Ubuntu added a good back story. That's good marketing and at the sharp end of that is the idea that "Ubuntu is the only economical alternative to windows".

Yet... openSUSE does have a clear and recognizable image... the colors... the desktop design... the Geeko. Anyone can instantly pick out openSUSE (assuming default setup) in a screenshot lineup.

...

We need to increase our brand recognition..... no argument there, although there maybe debate as to how we achieve that, I have some ideas but that's for another thread.

This is a big one, and can cover a huge range of what openSUSE is.

Let's take the branding discussion to the marketing list, plz. I'd love to hear your ideas there!

...

Set our install up so it's possible to get a functioning install with minimal interaction from the user. That means a default desktop: KDE to emphasise the point of difference.

Add to this.. make it easy to build bootable USB installs from ALL isos, not just the LiveCDs.

Yep. Meanwhile, this is technical, put it on a technical list/thread :D

...

Additionally common proprietary codecs and drivers should be on the DVD or at first launch a script should launch asking the user if they want Video and Audio codecs installed so they can play their windows media files. Graphics drivers would be good, but the Nvidia ones have been a bit too variable, so for reliabilities sake..... For OEM, that would obviously be a different issue

I think everyone should have to install Ubuntu and use it for a few hours to see what they have done to resolve this issue. openSUSE has definitely made incredible strides to resolving this, but the Ubuntu solution is... so simple.... and so user friendly.

Somehow it's a bigger legal issue for us than it is for them - we can't even point to the codecs (and they do). I don't know why, others here might know more. Either way, technical, not for this thread :D

...

A word of caution: "Easy" to market often ends up in lousy uptake. Find the area of achievable growth. Define the demographic, then create to pitch at that target market. Strategies that fail are those that try to be all things to all people and thus lose focus. Define your goals, test results against those goals and modify to suit.

This is well stated. This, in my mind, is the goal of defining the goals and strategies.

Agreed. Part of the strategy is to define target users and focus on what makes them happy. Notice that in the way we approach strategy, the traditional 'vision, mission, strategy' flow into each other.

C.

On Tue, 10 Aug 2010, Graham Lauder wrote:

/However, given the size of modern harddrives I see no reason why KDE, Gnome, XFCE, icewm and Window Maker can't all be installed if the install script detects an HD over say 160 GB.

Well, it does increase the amount of updates and bandwidth is not necessarily for free, and even if it is, updates cost time and inconvenience. Also, this means that a lot more applications will appear in the various menus and dialogs and choice is _not_ always good, especially when it's about usability or non-expert users.

Additionally common proprietary codecs and drivers should be on the DVD or at first launch a script should launch asking the user if they want Video and Audio codecs installed so they can play their windows media files.

Note that unless there is an openSUSE.com incorporated on some island in the Carribean or the Channel that takes over the entire infrastructure and distribution some of these things will be hard to implement and/or prohibitively expensive. Gerald -- Dr. Gerald Pfeifer Director Product Management, SUSE Linux Enterprise, openSUSE, Appliances -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Wednesday 11 August 2010 08:05:47 Graham Lauder wrote:

...

...

Additionally common proprietary codecs and drivers should be on the DVD or at first launch a script should launch asking the user if they want Video and Audio codecs installed so they can play their windows media files.

Try first launching Amarok in 11.3.

...

Note that unless there is an openSUSE.com incorporated on some island in the Carribean or the Channel that takes over the entire infrastructure and distribution some of these things will be hard to implement and/or prohibitively expensive.

Then one wonders how Ubuntu UE does it on install and you don't even have to ask.

I wondered too and looked. - Canonical is based on the Isle of Man [1] (0% corporation tax) and I guess that it is firewalled from Shuttleworth's Squillions to delay it becoming an attractive target to codec license holders and patent trolls. Plus, they don't have any big-name kernel developers who'd get irritated by their employer riding roughshod over their copyrights by distributing binary drivers. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canonical_Ltd. As a native of Northumberland, England I've spent enough time at the end of a rural narrowband connection to feel your pain, but I appreciate that benefits have their costs - whether it's unspoilt country life->slow internet or taking Free software seriously->not having every feature on a plate. Will -- Will Stephenson, openSUSE Team SUSE LINUX Products GmbH - Nürnberg - AG Nürnberg - HRB 16746 - GF: Markus Rex -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Le 05/08/2010 11:41, C a écrit :

care what the mission or focus is... they want stable, reliable, working... anything outside of that is proverbial icing on the cake.

and they often don't change the OS until they also change computer (whatever the os is, alas often windows, including vista :-() jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://pizzanetti.fr -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Thursday 2010-08-05 08:08, Martin Schlander wrote:

S.u.S.E./SUSE Linux had a clear identity and direction. As a stable, polished, powerful, easy to use, professional distro.[...]

The current muddy and confusing state has only been around for about 4-5 years. Starting somewhere between the Novell takeover and the creation of the openSUSE project.

If there ever was a time of question, it was from the Novell takeover until openSUSE was instantiated.

And steadily getting worse as the distro strays further and further from its roots. And the damage is enormous. Effective marketing is downright impossible and development is all over the place.

Can you corroborate your statements at least? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Le 05/08/2010 11:23, Martin Schlander a écrit :

The end result is of course that noone is very happy with it. * The people who want a functional stable distro are dispappointed. * The people who want all the latest, hyped, exciting non-working stuff are disappointed. * And finally the people who just want a n00b distro where non-free drivers and codecs are as easy as possible to install - and hope they'll never, ever need to launch a terminal are disappointed too.

every body always think things a better elsewhere. May we can make half of our friends happy firing the others, but I doubt it. Too many things are out of control (upstream - kernel, kde, gnome, Xorg). Ubuntu also have a server edition, a LTS edition.. Until now we agreed *not* to go in the LTS direction (except for team action). May be we are the only distribution that share kde/gnome/terminal users and this is what makes us strong. jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://pizzanetti.fr -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Torsdag den 5. august 2010 12:06:16 skrev Jan Engelhardt:

On Thursday 2010-08-05 11:23, Martin Schlander wrote:

...

Novell systematically dropping investment in openSUSE. Naturally this results in a product that is quite different from what it used to be.

* firing developers * making the ones that weren't fired work on webyast, susestudio etc. * dropping sax2 and yast modules * dropping 24 month support * outsourcing the boxset completely * dropping ppc * I heard rumours that jimmac won't be replaced and artwork will be fully dependant on volunteers going forward.

And all these resources being taken away from openSUSE are not re-applied elsewhere in the project. They're just freed up so we can barely maintain the status quo.

You seem to be wanting to dictate where a company has to put its manpower

You asked me to expand on my statement about openSUSE straying from its roots and that's all I did. And I'm not having any illusions about improving the way Novell treats openSUSE. I'm doing the opposite, I'm just stating the facts and accepting them. So we can build our strategy around what is realistic under the current circumstances - which are very different than they were 5 years ago.

...

...

Effective marketing is downright impossible

Some will say "openSUSE is great for n00bs" others will say "openSUSE is cool, innovative bleeding edge stuff" and some will say "openSUSE is just so stable and powerful and high-tech", etc.

When everybody is conveying different (and mutually exclusive) messages - and most of the time the message is out of sync with the reality of the distro, marketing is extremely ineffective - often damaging even.

I don't see why a distro could not be appalling to more than one type of user. "Given enough manpower", you surely can link both factory-edge with stability and impress that class of users.

That's just how it is. You can't succesfully market anything if you don't have a consistent message which additionally at least has _some_ connection with reality.

...

...

development is all over the place

openSUSE's strength could just be _not_ to be specialized, but to have a little bit of everything.

We've already tried that in the last 3-4 years, it's not working very well :-) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Wed, 2010-08-04 at 16:49 +0200, Stephan Kulow wrote:

Am Mittwoch 04 August 2010 schrieb Andreas Jaeger:

...

I agree with Dominique on this, if openSUSE goes this direction, I cannot see a single person working on GNOME switching to working on KDE. We even would lose directly since GNOME developers maintain packages that are needed for both GNOME and KDE or for the complete distribution.

And so I wonder why we have a strategy discussion at all. Perhaps we should have started with a "do want a change or not" discussion.

Greetings, Stephan

The strategy discussion started as a result of the Great Debate of 2009. Primarily, at least I observed, we saw two opposing views on what openSUSE was all about. One camp felt that openSUSE's strength would be better served if we gave more focus on one Desktop, and the other camp reminding us that all along, our strength has been that we had more than one tier 1 desktop. And as we looked around, we found that we had no clear distinction published anywhere that actually defined what our strengths were and why we were here in the first place. And having such definition does in fact help us in the long run to better manage and focus our efforts. The question that sitll remains is, what will that definition be, and we hope to see the outcome of that question settled in the near future. Bryen -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Am Mittwoch 04 August 2010 schrieb Bryen M. Yunashko:

And having such definition does in fact help us in the long run to better manage and focus our efforts. The question that sitll remains is, what will that definition be, and we hope to see the outcome of that question settled in the near future.

There the word is again: to manage. I wonder who wants to manage what. We clearly need a base to decide stuff Cornelius lined out, e.g. - configuration defaults (there are clearly small ones and large ones) - package set And we need an image possible contributors can attach to. But managing our efforts? I don't see the need to exclude someone's efforts. Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

* Bryen M. Yunashko [2010-08-04 17:00]:

The strategy discussion started as a result of the Great Debate of 2009. Primarily, at least I observed, we saw two opposing views on what openSUSE was all about. One camp felt that openSUSE's strength would be better served if we gave more focus on one Desktop, and the other camp reminding us that all along, our strength has been that we had more than one tier 1 desktop.

And as we looked around, we found that we had no clear distinction published anywhere that actually defined what our strengths were and why we were here in the first place.

And having such definition does in fact help us in the long run to better manage and focus our efforts. The question that sitll remains is, what will that definition be, and we hope to see the outcome of that question settled in the near future.

Actually it has been recorded now at http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Status_quo_strategy And I still don't see what's actually wrong with it. -- Guido Berhoerster -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

We have to ask ourselves here if these "desktop wars" you talk of is something that should keep defining what openSUSE is and how it works now and in the future, or if this whole discussion is about given direction to openSUSE and thus making it a successful operating system. Now my answer might differ from yours in this, but as far as I understand, people very much agree that the status quo is not satisfying, and that the root problem is the lack of focus and direction in openSUSE.

<snip>

Besides that, when seeing how much energy is poured into delivering different UIs on the same system, it simply makes me cry. And it makes me wonder how much longer this is sustainable. It might come as a surprise, but it's completely braindead to support two (or more) full UI stacks, with different applications, desktop interfaces and all that. It's in my not so humble opinion one of the major weak points of most Linux-based Operating Systems out there.

My take is a bit different: it's evolution in progress. We get the best UI by having multiple (more than 2) UIs competing with each other. Some die out because they aren't up to the standard of the others. Some get stronger by "borrowing" good ideas from the others. With a bit of wastefulness (evolution is very wasteful) we all get a better UI to use, and a constantly evolving and developing UI. So I say encourage the competition between KDE & Gnome as we all benefit. David -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Wednesday 2010-08-04 14:51, Sebastian Kügler wrote:

By starting this process of "let's think what we are and what we should be",

The question is not what we should be, but what we want to be.

By refocusing on what openSUSE is really good at, and by allowing yourself to take decisions that can be hard, we can regain this focus. Otherwise it keeps being the "Jack of all trades, master of None", and will eventually be surpassed by operating systems that do one thing, and do it really well.

Windows focuses on one thing - basically the core OS. Is it good at it? Ok maybe that's too rhetoric. OpenBSD focuses on security. Is it good at it? Certainly. What does the general public however pick? (Answer: FreeBSD.) Both in the BSD and Linux world you will see the typical Power Law evolution when plotting x=distro by rank, y=user count, which tells you that the masses prefer, in general, Jacks Of All Suits rather than a single-focused distro.

My experience as a user of openSUSE is that this focus on the user experience is clearly lacking, things work, but the product is missing the Wow. (And I'm not talking about the "Wow, my harddisk is properly recognized" that we Linux geeks are so used to, I'm talking about the Wow a new user could experience when first trying openSUSE.

WoW addicts. I should have known! Seriously, what is this Wow that this new user should, could experience? That he was able to install the system on his own? That it's presenting sparkling green backgrounds? Exploding windows? Desktop cubicles? That would be the first-impression-wow, a wow only about the outside. IMHO the real wow effect comes when the user has realized what is actually possible. What's under the hood and what will actually get you along.

Besides that, when seeing how much energy is poured into delivering different UIs on the same system, it simply makes me cry. And it makes me wonder how much longer this is sustainable. It might come as a surprise, but it's completely braindead to support two (or more) full UI stacks, with different applications, desktop interfaces and all that.

That's quite Dark Age thinking that everything infeasible is unholy. Plus I am tempted to say: Other distros, those which choose to focus on a single desktop, have one problems: either (1) lack of engineering manpower (2) lack of audience for another desktop UI, or (3) assuming the potential audience is there, having lost touch with (/having lost the feeling for) the surrounding world. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Wednesday 04 August 2010 15:47:32 Greg Freemyer wrote:

On Wed, Aug 4, 2010 at 8:51 AM, Sebastian Kügler wrote:

...

My experience as a user of openSUSE is that this focus on the user experience is clearly lacking, things work, but the product is missing the Wow. (And I'm not talking about the "Wow, my harddisk is properly recognized" that we Linux geeks are so used to, I'm talking about the Wow a new user could experience when first trying openSUSE. It could well be that we fail to walk the last mile in terms of user experience, because we do not focus but rather spread the little energy we have, and thereby missing the opportunity.

I sounds to me like you're proposing a "Wow" strategy.

Essentially, yes. To me that means: - Things work - They do so intuitively - They are beautiful in the process - ... and at the same time very powerful - All that is Free. I've always been impressed that even complex tasks are fairly easy to do in openSUSE. That is if you get past being afraid of the monster that is Yast. To me, the challenge really is "Harnessing the power that is there in openSUSE and make it also attractive" Now Apple, and to a certain degree Canonical try to get to this attractiveness by removing complexity, which has negative effect on the "powerful" bit. Apple very much so, since they even severely limit the number of hardware options -- and it works: All things hardware related the Linux desktop has been struggling with forever "just work" on Apple systems, think of fast suspend, accelerated graphics and, yes, audio and multimedia. The Linux desktop, or rather "workspace" (taking mobile devices into account) and specifically openSUSE has a real chance if it can meet the standard Apple set in design and UX, but deliver a very powerful and Free system. What needs to happen is that we as the people who create openSUSE fully concentrate on delivering the power within openSUSE to the users, and that has everything to do with the UI and the quality. It's not about technology, it's about making technology accessible to users so it's actually applied. One might wonder if a strong vision won't make up for people that are walking away because they find their pet technology underrepresented, can't cope with change, or simply have other objectives. I'm pretty sure it would make up for that -- the real question is if the openSUSE community is able to take a decision that might hurt in the beginning, but provides a real chance of success and thus away going forward. -- sebas http://www.kde.org | http://vizZzion.org | GPG Key ID: 9119 0EF9 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On 8/4/10 3:12 PM, Stephan Kulow wrote:

Am Mittwoch 04 August 2010 schrieb Vincent Untz:

...

Le mardi 03 août 2010, à 16:25 +0200, Pavol Rusnak a écrit :

...

The proposal is thus: let's focus the openSUSE efforts on KDE as the main application and desktop provider and put a lot of effort in customizing, simplifying and polishing it to be ready for end users. Of course we should also make sure we cater as good as possible for Qt and KDE developers, giving for example MeeGo developers a welcoming home.

Note: This proposal is not meant to start another flamewar, nor to drop GNOME or any other desktop environment (of course there still will be GNOME, LXDE and Xfce Spins available), it's just about our primary focus.

I just want to highlight the fact that this proposal goes against the statement that was made last year [1]:

I think a lot of the proposals are against "we will continue to strive to provide the best GNOME and KDE desktop experience.".

Greetings, Stephan

I've been following these discussions, but have not commented much. The thought that we will gain by trying to move the focus away from one of the Tier 1 desktops to me is short of insane. There are few gains IMO to be had if tomorrow either Gnome or KDE were to lose equal status in the distro. Indeed one of the key strengths of openSUSE is the both the good fortune to have resources and of having both key Gnome and KDE developers working on the distro, as well as upstream, at the same time. A while back, Gnome was definitely not of the same polish as KDE was at the same time. No longer. That is a good thing TM. I hope that does not change in the future. Even though I mostly work on KDE/Qt related things, I try to find time to also test/package Gnome things. Why ? Because some important parts of the openSUSE desktop come from both DE's. As a contributor, I like that there is actually good collaboration from the respective developers. As a user, I _need_ a good Gnome stack and good KDE stack for the desktop. Cheers, Peter -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org