Neal Gompa wrote:

On Wed, May 12, 2021 at 3:26 PM Per Jessen wrote:

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Neal Gompa wrote:

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Additionally, we intend to have regular public openSUSE Board meetings every other Monday starting on June 7 at 13:00 Europe/Berlin time on openSUSE Meet at https://meet.opensuse.org/OSBoardPublic

Hi Neal,

Bravo! I'm sure that will be most welcome, but 1300 CET seems like a pretty poor choice I think.

In Europe, where most likely the majority of our users/members reside, 1300 CET is in the middle of many/most people's workday, they might well be without the means to even access the meeting. Not to mention they'll be in the middle of their after-lunch coffees :-)

I'm sure the Board did consider it very carefully, and I appreciate deciding on a time was very difficult.

If you are doing it every other Monday, maybe also alternate the time?

There were basically no other times that both Simon Lees and myself would be able to show up. The alternative time (my afternoon, European evening) was extremely early for Simon. The compromise we have now is 7am my time, which is literally the absolute earliest I was willing to commit to.

Consistency for the time is basically mandatory because our schedules are hard to align, so alternating times would be extremely difficult to execute on (at least for me).

Yup, totally appreciate all of that. Still, repeating myself, what is the point of scheduling the public openSUSE board meeting for 1300CET when the vast majority of our members and users are busy with everyday life and work? It seems counterproductive. If it a simple matter of yourself and Simon being unable to attend concurrently, maybe you ought to take turns? I think the timing of the public openSUSE board meeting ought to enable the participation of as many users as possible, instead of being mostly convenient for the Board members - after all, you "serve at our pleasure" :-) -- Per Jessen, Zürich (9.5°C) Member, openSUSE Heroes

On Wed, May 12, 2021, at 22:32, Neal Gompa wrote:

On Wed, May 12, 2021 at 4:25 PM Per Jessen wrote:

...

Neal Gompa wrote:

...

On Wed, May 12, 2021 at 3:26 PM Per Jessen wrote:

...

Neal Gompa wrote:

...

Additionally, we intend to have regular public openSUSE Board meetings every other Monday starting on June 7 at 13:00 Europe/Berlin time on openSUSE Meet at https://meet.opensuse.org/OSBoardPublic

Hi Neal,

Bravo! I'm sure that will be most welcome, but 1300 CET seems like a pretty poor choice I think.

In Europe, where most likely the majority of our users/members reside, 1300 CET is in the middle of many/most people's workday, they might well be without the means to even access the meeting. Not to mention they'll be in the middle of their after-lunch coffees :-)

I'm sure the Board did consider it very carefully, and I appreciate deciding on a time was very difficult.

If you are doing it every other Monday, maybe also alternate the time?

There were basically no other times that both Simon Lees and myself would be able to show up. The alternative time (my afternoon, European evening) was extremely early for Simon. The compromise we have now is 7am my time, which is literally the absolute earliest I was willing to commit to.

Consistency for the time is basically mandatory because our schedules are hard to align, so alternating times would be extremely difficult to execute on (at least for me).

Yup, totally appreciate all of that. Still, repeating myself, what is the point of scheduling the public openSUSE board meeting for 1300CET when the vast majority of our members and users are busy with everyday life and work? It seems counterproductive.

If it a simple matter of yourself and Simon being unable to attend concurrently, maybe you ought to take turns?

I think the timing of the public openSUSE board meeting ought to enable the participation of as many users as possible, instead of being mostly convenient for the Board members - after all, you "serve at our pleasure" :-)

It's not just myself and Simon (though those were certainly the most difficult). Everyone's schedules have to be accomodated. There's no point in doing this if nobody from the board can make it. This was the time we could all fit into. We could try to identify another time, but we're *also* volunteers here, and other things rule our lives.

-- Neal Gompa (ID: Pharaoh_Atem)

Yeah I agree, also why would we want to have a public board meeting with only some of the members there and some other ones the next time. The whole point of the board meeting is that the whole board meets. /Syds

On 2021-05-13 21:05, Per Jessen wrote:

Syds Bearda wrote:

...

Yeah I agree, also why would we want to have a public board meeting with only some of the members there and some other ones the next time. The whole point of the board meeting is that the whole board meets. /Syds

What is the point of a _public_ board meeting with little or no _public_ in attendance?

It's not a _board_ meeting without the _board_ in attendance. The purpose of this is to enable public engagement with the Board. The requirement is for when the Board can all gather. And this is the time where that is possible, for the publicly elected Board members. And that's a good thing, as it shows our Board represents our diverse community and the many different time zones they inhabit. Our public can meet without the Board whenever they'd like. Stop being a troll, you're not acting consistently with the position of responsibility you inhabit as an openSUSE Hero and mailinglist admin.

* Stefan Seyfried [05-13-21 15:56]:

On 13.05.21 21:31, Richard Brown wrote:

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Stop being a troll, you're not acting consistently with the position of responsibility you inhabit as an openSUSE Hero and mailinglist admin.

Wait? Heroes and mailinglist admins are no longer entitled to an own opinion on such matters? Who did announce that and when?

Mr. Brown presumes quite some liberties, but continues to publically admonish others. hummmmmmmmmmmmm -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode

I think you are missing the point of these meetings (yes plural). We are planning on doing these regularly. This is not instead of the public meeting during the openSUSE Conference. It is something extra. /Syds On Thu, May 13, 2021, at 22:58, Per Jessen wrote:

Richard Brown wrote:

...

On 2021-05-13 21:05, Per Jessen wrote:

...

Syds Bearda wrote:

...

Yeah I agree, also why would we want to have a public board meeting with only some of the members there and some other ones the next time. The whole point of the board meeting is that the whole board meets. /Syds

What is the point of a _public_ board meeting with little or no _public_ in attendance?

It's not a _board_ meeting without the _board_ in attendance. The purpose of this is to enable public engagement with the Board.

A purpose that is not well served by the time of day chosen. Hence my suggestion that the Board need to reconsider.

...

The requirement is for when the Board can all gather.

Why completely disregard when the public can all gather?

...

And that's a good thing, as it shows our Board represents our diverse community and the many different time zones they inhabit.

Uh, maybe you ought to look it up - the openSUSE board current inhabits three (3) different timezones.

...

Our public can meet without the Board whenever they'd like.

Of course, but that is hardly related to $SUBJ.

-- Per Jessen, Zürich (8.5°C) Member, openSUSE Heroes

Great move, thank you Board! On Wed, 2021-05-12 at 16:32 -0400, Neal Gompa wrote:

On Wed, May 12, 2021 at 4:25 PM Per Jessen wrote:

...

Neal Gompa wrote:

...

On Wed, May 12, 2021 at 3:26 PM Per Jessen wrote:

...

Neal Gompa wrote:

...

Additionally, we intend to have regular public openSUSE Board meetings every other Monday starting on June 7 at 13:00 Europe/Berlin time on openSUSE Meet at https://meet.opensuse.org/OSBoardPublic

Hi Neal,

Bravo! I'm sure that will be most welcome, but 1300 CET seems like a pretty poor choice I think.

In Europe, where most likely the majority of our users/members reside, 1300 CET is in the middle of many/most people's workday, they might well be without the means to even access the meeting. Not to mention they'll be in the middle of their after-lunch coffees :-)

I'm sure the Board did consider it very carefully, and I appreciate deciding on a time was very difficult.

If you are doing it every other Monday, maybe also alternate the time?

There were basically no other times that both Simon Lees and myself would be able to show up. The alternative time (my afternoon, European evening) was extremely early for Simon. The compromise we have now is 7am my time, which is literally the absolute earliest I was willing to commit to.

Consistency for the time is basically mandatory because our schedules are hard to align, so alternating times would be extremely difficult to execute on (at least for me).

Yup, totally appreciate all of that. Still, repeating myself, what is the point of scheduling the public openSUSE board meeting for 1300CET when the vast majority of our members and users are busy with everyday life and work? It seems counterproductive.

If it a simple matter of yourself and Simon being unable to attend concurrently, maybe you ought to take turns?

I think the timing of the public openSUSE board meeting ought to enable the participation of as many users as possible, instead of being mostly convenient for the Board members - after all, you "serve at our pleasure" :-)

It's not just myself and Simon (though those were certainly the most difficult). Everyone's schedules have to be accomodated. There's no point in doing this if nobody from the board can make it. This was the time we could all fit into. We could try to identify another time, but we're *also* volunteers here, and other things rule our lives.

On 13.05.21 21:15, Per Jessen wrote:

Neal Gompa wrote:

...

It's not just myself and Simon (though those were certainly the most difficult). Everyone's schedules have to be accomodated. There's no point in doing this if nobody from the board can make it.

Much as there is no point in doing this if nobody from our key public audience can make it.

I can make it easily, this is almost the best possible time of day for me. But maybe I'm not part of the "key public audience"? -- Stefan Seyfried "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled." -- Richard Feynman

On 5/13/21 5:55 AM, Per Jessen wrote:

Neal Gompa wrote:

...

On Wed, May 12, 2021 at 3:26 PM Per Jessen wrote:

...

Neal Gompa wrote:

...

Additionally, we intend to have regular public openSUSE Board meetings every other Monday starting on June 7 at 13:00 Europe/Berlin time on openSUSE Meet at https://meet.opensuse.org/OSBoardPublic

Hi Neal,

Bravo! I'm sure that will be most welcome, but 1300 CET seems like a pretty poor choice I think.

In Europe, where most likely the majority of our users/members reside, 1300 CET is in the middle of many/most people's workday, they might well be without the means to even access the meeting. Not to mention they'll be in the middle of their after-lunch coffees :-)

I'm sure the Board did consider it very carefully, and I appreciate deciding on a time was very difficult.

If you are doing it every other Monday, maybe also alternate the time?

There were basically no other times that both Simon Lees and myself would be able to show up. The alternative time (my afternoon, European evening) was extremely early for Simon. The compromise we have now is 7am my time, which is literally the absolute earliest I was willing to commit to.

Consistency for the time is basically mandatory because our schedules are hard to align, so alternating times would be extremely difficult to execute on (at least for me).

Yup, totally appreciate all of that. Still, repeating myself, what is the point of scheduling the public openSUSE board meeting for 1300CET when the vast majority of our members and users are busy with everyday life and work? It seems counterproductive.

If it a simple matter of yourself and Simon being unable to attend concurrently, maybe you ought to take turns?

I think the timing of the public openSUSE board meeting ought to enable the participation of as many users as possible, instead of being mostly convenient for the Board members - after all, you "serve at our pleasure" :-)

I think you might be slightly missing our aim / goal for this, which is rather then having a fortnightly meeting in private starting that meeting in public, so where possible we will discuss as many topics as possible in public before moving into private to discuss any issues. While we expect some people may add topics to the agenda and were possible we will allow them to start the discussion on them our primary objective will still be to discuss any current board topics, in the last few meetings we haven't got through everything in our agenda as it is. We will continue to have sessions such as the one at the upcoming openSUSE conference that allow the community to have a broader Q/A and discussion with the board, we certainly aren't aiming to do that fortnightly. Its probably also worth noting that When Europe / US move back to Winter time and Australia goes back to Summer time we deal with a 2hr change in times which will probably be enough to move the meeting back into the European evening. It is very hard for us as board members to serve the community effectively if we are unable to attend meetings or would have to wake up at 3am to do such :-) -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B

Am Donnerstag, 13. Mai 2021, 21:08:20 CEST schrieb Per Jessen:

Simon Lees wrote:

...

On 5/13/21 5:55 AM, Per Jessen wrote:

...

I think the timing of the public openSUSE board meeting ought to enable the participation of as many users as possible, instead of being mostly convenient for the Board members - after all, you "serve at our pleasure" :-)

I think you might be slightly missing our aim / goal for this, which is rather then having a fortnightly meeting in private starting that meeting in public, so where possible we will discuss as many topics as possible in public before moving into private to discuss any issues.

I agree I may be missing the point :-) - but what _is_ then

a) the point of making part of the meeting public, yet b) choosing a time when most of "our public" will be otherwise occupied ?

I suspect I understand the reasoning behind (a), but I am puzzled about (b). As I said, (b) seems to work against (a).

But it is the only timeslot that was feasible to all Board members during summer season. So it is not that we chose the time to make it impossible for any Community member to attend, it is the offer to the community to attend at the only possible timeslot at the moment. Best, Axel

On 13.05.21 22:43, Per Jessen wrote:

Axel Braun wrote:

...

But it is the only timeslot that was feasible to all Board members during summer season.

I am only questioning why the Board should take preference here. Why not pick the timeslot that is feasible to most community members during the summer (or winter) season ?

What use would such public board meetings have if (ok, extreme example here...) "most community members" could attend, but none of the board members? I would totally understand if a board member that was "forced" to attend regular meetings at 3:00 would immediately resign. -- Stefan Seyfried "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled." -- Richard Feynman

On Sat, May 15 2021 at 21:13:22 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:

Admittedly, I am probably a little odd in considering the community much more important than the board. If the board wants to hold public meetings, scheduled by the "least inconvenience" to the board members, the board is clearly of a different opinion.

I would expect the openSUSE board to make itself available to the community members it represents, also at times less comfortable. I also volunteer for one or two things, and I make myself available when it is for the most benefit of the people I serve (my local community) - sometimes at 2 o'clock in the morning or on a public holiday.

I don't understand how you see it happening, we couldn't find a suitable time for 7 people in one timezone for a video meeting the past weeks, I can't imagine how setting up a meeting that suits 400-500 people, situated all around the world, 2 times a month would work LCP [Sasi] https://lcp.world

On Sat, May 15, 2021, at 21:51, Per Jessen wrote:

Sasi Olin wrote:

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On Sat, May 15 2021 at 21:13:22 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:

...

Admittedly, I am probably a little odd in considering the community much more important than the board. If the board wants to hold public meetings, scheduled by the "least inconvenience" to the board members, the board is clearly of a different opinion.

I would expect the openSUSE board to make itself available to the community members it represents, also at times less comfortable. I also volunteer for one or two things, and I make myself available when it is for the most benefit of the people I serve (my local community) - sometimes at 2 o'clock in the morning or on a public holiday.

I don't understand how you see it happening, we couldn't find a suitable time for 7 people in one timezone for a video meeting the past weeks, I can't imagine how setting up a meeting that suits 400-500 people, situated all around the world, 2 times a month would work

400-500 attendants are probably a little over-optimistic, if it were me organising it, I think I would be happy with 40 or 50, although it would be nice if they also represented our main community group(s). (can meet.o.o even deal with 40-50 participants?)

(thinking out loud) If the timing just proves impossible, then I would suggest board members be allowed to alternate. Maybe one public meeting scheduled to enable European members to attend, the 2nd one to enable Asian members, third one for the Americas ?

What do you think the goal of this board meeting is? a) The community can bi-weekly ask questions to some of the board members; b) The (whole) board has a bi-weekly meeting, which the community can view and perhaps participate in. For me it is option b). I see option a) as the meeting during the conference, where the community can ask questions to the board directly. Also I would like to point out that moment is not the only option for the community to reach out to the board; you can always email or sent direct messages, etc. /Syds

-- Per Jessen, Zürich (8.6°C) Member, openSUSE Heroes

On 5/14/21 4:38 AM, Per Jessen wrote:

Simon Lees wrote:

...

On 5/13/21 5:55 AM, Per Jessen wrote:

...

I think the timing of the public openSUSE board meeting ought to enable the participation of as many users as possible, instead of being mostly convenient for the Board members - after all, you "serve at our pleasure" :-)

I think you might be slightly missing our aim / goal for this, which is rather then having a fortnightly meeting in private starting that meeting in public, so where possible we will discuss as many topics as possible in public before moving into private to discuss any issues.

I agree I may be missing the point :-) - but what _is_ then

The aim is to increase transparency in the boards operation where possible by allowing the community where possible to view the meetings. Obviously a change that allows some members of the community to do this rather then non at all is a massive step forward in transparency and doing this at a time when more of the community can join but not all of the board can defeats the point because then as a board we would still have to have other meetings with the whole board. -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B

Op woensdag 12 mei 2021 21:26:29 CEST schreef Per Jessen:

In Europe, where most likely the majority of our users/members reside, 1300 CET is in the middle of many/most people's workday, Lunch time for most of us.

-- Gertjan Lettink a.k.a. Knurpht openSUSE Board openSUSE Forums Team

On Wed 2021-05-12, Per Jessen wrote:

I'm sure the Board did consider it very carefully, and I appreciate deciding on a time was very difficult.

Yes, timezones are not on our side. The only remotely reasonable alternative to get the entire board was Simon doing very early morning calls (5:30-6:30) and the Europeans late evening (22:00-23:00), which is something we did for a while in 2019 and 2020. https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/meetingtime.html?year=2021&month=5&day=15&p1=5&p2=259&p3=43 Gerald