8 Sep
2009
8 Sep
'09
12:13 a.m.
Hi All,
I must be missing something here, or it might have been explained but my
attention span across the zillions of emails around this topic of
creating a new distro is just very bad...
For openSUSE 11.1, we will have updates ('support') for 18 months.
Those who wants to provide long term support for 11.1, can simply create
their own updates. It wouldn't be difficult to create a common repo
where people can contribute to patches for this purpose and keep doing
that for some 7 years or whatever the plan is. Heck, since we're not
talking massive changes and updates, anyone can help out with this, as
well as working on openSUSE Factory etc.
One issue with this, is that we normally clean up OBS by removing old,
unsupported distro versions, but that is surely a decision that can be
changed if there are such noble goals as to create a long term support
cycle.
By creating an entirely new distribution, some folks that previously
contributed to openSUSE will no longer have time for that, and put their
efforts into the new distro instead. In my opinion, we are already short
of people contributing and this split will obviously make that number
even smaller.
So, please enlighten me what I'm not getting here...
Cheers,
Magnus
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8 Sep
8 Sep
12:26 a.m.
+1
On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 6:13 PM, Magnus Boman<captain.magnus(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Hi All,
I must be missing something here, or it might have been explained but my
attention span across the zillions of emails around this topic of
creating a new distro is just very bad...
For openSUSE 11.1, we will have updates ('support') for 18 months.
Those who wants to provide long term support for 11.1, can simply create
their own updates. It wouldn't be difficult to create a common repo
where people can contribute to patches for this purpose and keep doing
that for some 7 years or whatever the plan is. Heck, since we're not
talking massive changes and updates, anyone can help out with this, as
well as working on openSUSE Factory etc.
One issue with this, is that we normally clean up OBS by removing old,
unsupported distro versions, but that is surely a decision that can be
changed if there are such noble goals as to create a long term support
cycle.
By creating an entirely new distribution, some folks that previously
contributed to openSUSE will no longer have time for that, and put their
efforts into the new distro instead. In my opinion, we are already short
of people contributing and this split will obviously make that number
even smaller.
So, please enlighten me what I'm not getting here...
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8:39 a.m.
Magnus Boman wrote:
For openSUSE 11.1, we will have updates
('support') for 18 months.
Those who wants to provide long term support for 11.1, can simply
create their own updates. It wouldn't be difficult to create a common
repo where people can contribute to patches for this purpose and keep
doing that for some 7 years or whatever the plan is. Heck, since we're
not talking massive changes and updates, anyone can help out with
this, as well as working on openSUSE Factory etc.
One issue with this, is that we normally clean up OBS by removing old,
unsupported distro versions, but that is surely a decision that can be
changed if there are such noble goals as to create a long term support
cycle.
By creating an entirely new distribution, some folks that previously
contributed to openSUSE will no longer have time for that, and put
their efforts into the new distro instead. In my opinion, we are
already short of people contributing and this split will obviously
make that number even smaller.
So, please enlighten me what I'm not getting here...
You seem to make be making a lot of sense.
/Per Jessen, Zürich
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8:48 a.m.
Yes, I also agree. We could have every two years (1 release on three)
a LTS release.
2009/9/8 Per Jessen <per(a)computer.org>
Magnus Boman wrote:
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For openSUSE 11.1, we will have updates
('support') for 18 months.
Those who wants to provide long term support for 11.1, can simply
create their own updates. It wouldn't be difficult to create a common
repo where people can contribute to patches for this purpose and keep
doing that for some 7 years or whatever the plan is. Heck, since we're
not talking massive changes and updates, anyone can help out with
this, as well as working on openSUSE Factory etc.
One issue with this, is that we normally clean up OBS by removing old,
unsupported distro versions, but that is surely a decision that can be
changed if there are such noble goals as to create a long term support
cycle.
By creating an entirely new distribution, some folks that previously
contributed to openSUSE will no longer have time for that, and put
their efforts into the new distro instead. In my opinion, we are
already short of people contributing and this split will obviously
make that number even smaller.
So, please enlighten me what I'm not getting here...
You seem to make be making a lot of sense.
/Per Jessen, Zürich
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9:06 a.m.
Tirsdag den 8. september 2009 00:13:06 skrev Magnus Boman:
I must be missing something here, or it might have
been explained but my
attention span across the zillions of emails around this topic of
creating a new distro is just very bad...
For openSUSE 11.1, we will have updates ('support') for 18 months.
Those who wants to provide long term support for 11.1, can simply create
their own updates.
So, please enlighten me what I'm not getting
here...
Haven't followed this closely either, but the following advantages of
"openSLES" over "openSUSE LTS" spring to mind.
* rebuilding SLES updates seems easier than creating your own from scratch
* I guess SLES is supposed to be more stable and polished than openSUSE
* A lot of stuff is certified and tested against SLES
Same reasons why CentOS has out-lived the Fedora Legacy project I guess :-)
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9:15 a.m.
On Tue, 2009-09-08 at 09:06 +0200, Martin Schlander wrote:
Haven't followed this closely either, but the
following advantages of
"openSLES" over "openSUSE LTS" spring to mind.
* rebuilding SLES updates seems easier than creating your own from
scratch
* I guess SLES is supposed to be more stable and polished than
openSUSE
* A lot of stuff is certified and tested against SLES
Same reasons why CentOS has out-lived the Fedora Legacy project I
guess :-)
But if you're talking about SLES, it has 7 year support cycle for each
release. So again, for some of us, it's not clear. Are we talking
about a free version of SLES? Or are we talking about a more stable
long-term version of openSUSE? Two very different things. And two very
different projects.
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9:21 a.m.
Bryen M Yunashko wrote:
But if you're talking about SLES, it has 7 year
support cycle for each
release. So again, for some of us, it's not clear. Are we talking
about a free version of SLES?
You can follow this discussion on Boyds list:
http://lists.zenez.com/mailman/listinfo/opensle
Or are we talking about a more stable long-term
version of openSUSE?
Two very different things. And two very different projects.
They have both been proposed, but I think the emphasis has turned
towards a free SLES a la CentOS.
/Per Jessen, Zürich
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11:32 a.m.
Having a free version of SLES makes a lot of sense actually. Look at
the CentOS project and how it compliments RH.
I am no coder but will love to help.
Eric
On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 3:21 PM, Per Jessen<per(a)computer.org> wrote:
Bryen M Yunashko wrote:
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But if you're talking about SLES, it has 7
year support cycle for each
release. So again, for some of us, it's not clear. Are we talking
about a free version of SLES?
You can follow this discussion on Boyds list:
http://lists.zenez.com/mailman/listinfo/opensle
Or are we talking about a more stable long-term
version of openSUSE?
Two very different things. And two very different projects.
They have both been proposed, but I think the emphasis has turned
towards a free SLES a la CentOS.
/Per Jessen, Zürich
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17 Sep
17 Sep
11:35 p.m.
On 08/09/09 03:15, Bryen M Yunashko wrote:
Or are we talking about a more stable
long-term version of openSUSE?
Stability and long-term support are completely different things.
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18 Sep
18 Sep
6:34 a.m.
On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 23:35, Cristian Rodríguez
<crrodriguez(a)opensuse.org> wrote:
On 08/09/09 03:15, Bryen M Yunashko wrote:
+1 Agree here :)
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Or are we talking about a more stable
long-term version of openSUSE?
Stability and long-term support are completely different things. 
14 Sep
14 Sep
9:51 p.m.
On 2009-09-08T09:06:21, Martin Schlander <martin.schlander(a)gmail.com> wrote:
* A lot of stuff is certified and tested against SLES
You're aware that none of the certifications would hold for "openSLE"
(or whatever the name is going to be), right? Certifications aren't tied
to the source code, they're almost always tied to a specific,
well-defined compilation _plus_ an active support/maintenance
subscription.
Regards,
Lars
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10:14 p.m.
Lars Marowsky-Bree wrote:
On 2009-09-08T09:06:21, Martin Schlander
<martin.schlander(a)gmail.com> wrote:
I'm working in a big company and out of experience I can tell you that
most third-party software vendors will give support if you run their
software which is probably only certified for RHEL on the
binary-compatible CentOS of the same version number. This might not
meet your definition (and those vendors will probably not state the
official support of CentOS on their web site), but that's how it works
in practice. Of course, you need an active support subscription for that
specific third-party software under consideration - why would you expect
to get support without it.
Cheers,
Th.
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* A lot of stuff is certified and tested against
SLES
You're aware that none of the certifications would hold for "openSLE"
(or whatever the name is going to be), right? Certifications aren't tied
to the source code, they're almost always tied to a specific,
well-defined compilation _plus_ an active support/maintenance
subscription.
15 Sep
15 Sep
1:51 p.m.
On 2009-09-14T21:14:41, Thomas Hertweck <Thomas.Hertweck(a)web.de> wrote:
This only works as long as you take _exactly_ the same sources, and
recompile them with _exactly_ the same options, resulting in _exactly_
the same package versions. Basically, you restrict the differences to
the branding bits.
If even that - surely, /etc/SuSE-release will differ, zypper products
etc too, which some apps (mistakenly) check for, so for example an
Oracle installer will be unhappy.
Basically, if that is what you're striving for, there's very little
differentiation except the price.
I admit that I'm not exactly thrilled by a distribution like that. It
reminds me of Oracle's attempt to undermine Red Hat with UBL.
You're
aware that none of the certifications would hold for "openSLE"
(or whatever the name is going to be), right? Certifications aren't tied
to the source code, they're almost always tied to a specific,
well-defined compilation _plus_ an active support/maintenance
subscription.
I'm working in a big company and out of experience I can tell
you that
most third-party software vendors will give support if you run their
software which is probably only certified for RHEL on the
binary-compatible CentOS of the same version number. This might not meet your definition (and those vendors
will probably
not state the official support of CentOS on their web site), but
that's how it works in practice.
If you're going down that path, you might directly argue that the
certification is worthless. (A position that is not without merit ;-)
Of course, you need an active support subscription for
that
specific third-party software under consideration - why would you expect
to get support without it.
I wonder how you'd expect to resolve a bug that turns out to be in the
OS, then. Pressure the app vendor to report it via their technology
partnership, so that the base OS gets fixed/backported, and the fix gets
re-published for free, while there's absolutely no contributing
community? Nice stunt.
Frankly, I and my bank have opinions on that ;-)
If you're heading down that path, I would be more happy if you chose a
real community distribution and became a contributor. But that may be a
minority position.
Regards,
Lars
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SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg)
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9:39 p.m.
Hi Lars,
Lars Marowsky-Bree wrote:
[...]
This only works as long as you take _exactly_ the same sources, and
recompile them with _exactly_ the same options, resulting in _exactly_
the same package versions. Basically, you restrict the differences to
the branding bits.
If even that - surely, /etc/SuSE-release will differ, zypper products
etc too, which some apps (mistakenly) check for, so for example an
Oracle installer will be unhappy.
Basically, if that is what you're striving for, there's very little
differentiation except the price.
I admit that I'm not exactly thrilled by a distribution like that. It
reminds me of Oracle's attempt to undermine Red Hat with UBL.
Well, what do you think CentOS really is at the end of the day?
[...]
If you're going down that path, you might directly argue that the
certification is worthless. (A position that is not without merit ;-)
Perhaps. It really depends on why a certification seems to be required in
the first place. In other words, I think this needs to be looked at on a
case by case basis.
[...]
I wonder how you'd expect to resolve a bug that turns out to be in the
OS, then. Pressure the app vendor to report it via their technology
partnership, so that the base OS gets fixed/backported, and the fix gets
re-published for free, while there's absolutely no contributing
community? Nice stunt.
Frankly, I and my bank have opinions on that ;-)
Frankly speaking, I think you've missed the point and it looks like you
didn't follow the email discussion over the last two weeks which becomes
obvious from what you wrote here. Nobody said important servers should run
an OS as proposed in Boyd's project. If you need support, install an
Enterprise OS like RHEL or SLES. However, if you are running clusters with
thousands of nodes, not all of them will require such a support level but
may still have to run third-party software. Similar considerations hold of
course for smaller businesses. At the end of the day, it's of course
partly about money. Why do you think CentOS is relatively successful?
Certainly not because of its first-class Enterprise support ;) As somebody
pointed out recently, the business model currently used by RedHat and
Novell may no longer work in the future.
If you're heading down that path, I would be more
happy if you chose a
real community distribution and became a contributor. But that may be a
minority position.
Well, I have a position and an opinion as a private individual, and one
position (which is more business related) and an opinion as somebody
working for a large company where I have influence on OS, hardware, and
software decisions. These opinions/positions do not necessarily agree with
each other ;) I certainly observe that the more commercial opinions and
positions are usually not very welcome in the community.
I've certainly seen and observed what has gone on in our line of business
over the last, say, two years and frankly speaking, I wouldn't be
surprised if openSUSE/SLES loses more users/customers of a certain type
described in some email threads here because the Fedora/CentOS/RHEL and
the Ubuntu/Ubuntu LTS solutions become more attractive. You don't have to
agree with me on that one, it's however my opinion based on recent
experience. Only time will probably show what and who is right or wrong.
Cheers, Thomas
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10:07 p.m.
By the way, it
It should be noted that CentOS is not just successful when used as a
pseudo-RHEL for things like cluster nodes and such where companies
want to avoid licensing of not-as-critical systems but its also a very
popular OS for building appliance servers like the Kickfire, the
Schooner, etc. That SUSE seems to have ceded the market for appliance
server OS to Redhat/CentOS where an "OpenSLES" could provide some
differentiation and superiority in the build system and various other
aspects may be something that has been overlooked.
Why do you think CentOS is relatively successful?
Certainly not because of its first-class Enterprise
support ;) As somebody
pointed out recently, the business model currently used by RedHat and
Novell may no longer work in the future.
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If you're heading down that path, I would be
more happy if you chose a
real community distribution and became a contributor. But that may be a
minority position.
Well, I have a position and an opinion as a private individual, and one
position (which is more business related) and an opinion as somebody
working for a large company where I have influence on OS, hardware, and
software decisions. These opinions/positions do not necessarily agree with
each other ;) I certainly observe that the more commercial opinions and
positions are usually not very welcome in the community.
I've certainly seen and observed what has gone on in our line of business
over the last, say, two years and frankly speaking, I wouldn't be
surprised if openSUSE/SLES loses more users/customers of a certain type
described in some email threads here because the Fedora/CentOS/RHEL and
the Ubuntu/Ubuntu LTS solutions become more attractive. You don't have to
agree with me on that one, it's however my opinion based on recent
experience. Only time will probably show what and who is right or wrong.
Cheers, Thomas
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16 Sep
16 Sep
12:26 a.m.
On Tuesday 15 September 2009 22:07:34 Jason Perlow wrote:
That SUSE seems to have ceded the market for appliance
server OS to Redhat/CentOS where an "OpenSLES" could provide some
differentiation and superiority in the build system and various other
aspects may be something that has been overlooked.
You do know that you can create a custom appliance OS from a choice of
openSUSE 11.1, SLED 10 or 11 and also SLES 10 or 11 using the rather groovy
susestudio.com?
As far as I'm aware there's a Novell support channel available for those
organisations that need it.
Given that *nobody* else in the appliance server sphere has _anything_ like
susestudio.com I'd hardly say this is a case of ceding the market ;)
Cheers the noo
Graham
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12:49 a.m.
Susestudio is indeed nice, but for compaines that want to host their own build
environments a self hosting distro based on sles would be nice as well.
I am acutually using suse studio myself, its a nice site.
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
-----Original Message-----
From: Graham Anderson <graham.anderson(a)gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 00:26:05
To: <opensuse-project(a)opensuse.org>
Subject: Re: [opensuse-project] openSUSE Long Term Support...
On Tuesday 15 September 2009 22:07:34 Jason Perlow wrote:
That SUSE seems to have ceded the market for
appliance
server OS to Redhat/CentOS where an "OpenSLES" could provide some
differentiation and superiority in the build system and various other
aspects may be something that has been overlooked.
You do know that you can create a custom appliance OS from a choice of
openSUSE 11.1, SLED 10 or 11 and also SLES 10 or 11 using the rather groovy
susestudio.com?
As far as I'm aware there's a Novell support channel available for those
organisations that need it.
Given that *nobody* else in the appliance server sphere has_anything_ like
susestudio.com I'd hardly say this is a case of ceding the market ;)
Cheers the noo
Graham
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☘ Oscar Wilde
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7:40 a.m.
On Tuesday 15 September 2009 21:39:09 Thomas Hertweck wrote:
If you need support, install an
Enterprise OS like RHEL or SLES. However, if you are running clusters with
thousands of nodes, not all of them will require such a support level but
may still have to run third-party software.
Just FYI: There's a special SLES pricing for clusters - you don't pay the
normal price as you do for a single machine.
Andreas
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9:26 p.m.
Andreas Jaeger wrote:
[...]
Just FYI: There's a special SLES pricing for clusters - you don't pay the
normal price as you do for a single machine.
I don't know the SLES pricing, we use(d) RHEL in our company. I know of
course that there are discounts, but believe me it still makes a big
difference. We are talking about some pretty big clusters in the oil
and gas business ;-)
Cheers, Th.
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17 Sep
17 Sep
10:12 a.m.
On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 00:13, Magnus Boman <captain.magnus(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Hi All,
I must be missing something here, or it might have been explained but my
attention span across the zillions of emails around this topic of
creating a new distro is just very bad...
For openSUSE 11.1, we will have updates ('support') for 18 months.
Those who wants to provide long term support for 11.1, can simply create
their own updates. It wouldn't be difficult to create a common repo
where people can contribute to patches for this purpose and keep doing
that for some 7 years or whatever the plan is. Heck, since we're not
talking massive changes and updates, anyone can help out with this, as
well as working on openSUSE Factory etc.
One issue with this, is that we normally clean up OBS by removing old,
unsupported distro versions, but that is surely a decision that can be
changed if there are such noble goals as to create a long term support
cycle.
By creating an entirely new distribution, some folks that previously
contributed to openSUSE will no longer have time for that, and put their
efforts into the new distro instead. In my opinion, we are already short
of people contributing and this split will obviously make that number
even smaller.
So, please enlighten me what I'm not getting here...
Cheers,
Magnus
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I have a suggestion here,
Maybe a LTS could work in the Following Model.
So imagine there it applied to openSUSE 11.x
and imagine that 11.3 was last of the openSUSE 11 range, wouldn't it
work to make last
release of a range the LTS version in other words just extend the
support by x amount of months ?
In other words.
11.1
11.2
11.3 (LTS)
This will only truely work when the openSUSE release cycle is storted out :)
and obviously it will be :D
Karl
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19 Sep
19 Sep
12:29 a.m.
On Thu, 17 Sep 2009, Karl Fischer wrote:
This will only truely work when the openSUSE release
cycle is storted
out :) and obviously it will be :D
It has been a few months ago :-), and we are now on an eight month
release cycle.
(And major vs minor versions are not very material as far as openSUSE
goes, that is, 11.x to 12.0 is not necessarily larger than 11.1 to 11.2.)
Gerald
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Andreas Jaeger -
Bryen M Yunashko -
Cristian Rodríguez -
Eric Yeoh -
Gerald Pfeifer -
Graham Anderson -
Jason Perlow -
Jean Cayron -
jperlow＠gmail.com
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Karl Fischer -
Kayo Hamid -
Lars Marowsky-Bree -
Magnus Boman -
Martin Schlander -
Per Jessen -
Thomas Hertweck