On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 04:45:57 +0200, Stephan Kleine wrote:
Help those of us who run those forums communicate more effectively with the membership there. *Please*.
I have no idea what you define as "membership" but the communication channels are well defined.
I'm talking about the members in the forum - not the openSUSE project members. This is why we need to have a common set of terms as a baseline for discussion.
The point isn't "hate everyone else because they're not on the forums" but what I have long sensed is a frustration on the part of some of the forum members that the forums are thought of as "second class".
The forum members are no "second class" but they simply fail to acknowledge that bitching on said forums doesn't help anyone. So they either will start to use communication channels that are used by the rest of the world to provide their input or their input will get lost within all that mess that currently makes up those "forums".
This is the core of the problem. You say the forum membership isn't second class, but then you describe the posts on the forums (collectively) as "bitching" and say that they need to "use communications that are used by the rest of the world". By definition, you've just relegated those users to "second class" status.
But some people need the catharsis of getting all their frustrations out on the table before they can move forward.
How about starting to "contribute" then in any way? Either test stuff _and_ file it via the proper channels (not those "forums" but bugzilla and so on). Also we are in need of documentation, packaging and so on. Point being bitching on said "forums" doesn't help anyone and most of them can't be arsed to contribute more than spamming there which doesn't qualify as useful contribution.
The openSUSE forums *are* an official channel. They're hosted by the openSUSE project, at forums.opensuse.org.
Again, what should we do ?
Help us clarify what needs clarified, understand where the community members in the forums are coming from, and make the forum members feel like a valued part of the community. Let's face it - many of the openSUSE user base use the forums to get help, and they get some good help in the forums - but the developer presence in the forums is practically nonexistent.
TBH, I don't give a rats ass about some mindless bubbling. If you want to contribute it is pretty obvious (e.g. report broken stuff in bugzilla and fix anything you encounter broken - which also includes missing docs on the wiki which shouldn't be that hard to do, or learn packaging or help people out or .... ).
I don't find this particularly helpful, Stephan. People need to be able to ask for help - and they do in the forums. it's not about "mindless bubbling" but about people who do not have the knowledge or skills to file a bug report with the information a developer needs. Sitting back and telling the users "you're doing it wrong" doesn't encourage users to learn how to contribute. If you want to build a stronger community of *contributors*, you have to start with a community of *users* (since by definition, the contributors come out of the pool of users). Alienating the user base is not a good way to grow a community of contributors. Telling them they're stupid (which you have in effect done) also doesn't. Think about it - how would YOU react to being told that you're stupid for using a resource that has been provided by the project? I imagine you'd be pretty angry.
I've suggested in the thread in the forums (and I'll suggest here as well) that what might help with this is for the openSUSE developer community to leverage the forums as a first point of contact for users and work out (with those of us who are the admins in the forums) a means for issues to be escalated from the forum membership to the developers. Right now there's no real good guideline that I've seen other than "file a bug in bugzilla" - which makes the forum users feel disconnected from the project.
As long as those "forums" are handled (via admins) and structurwise as they are now I wont touch them with a rotten stick. I argued with your "admins" quite some times to make it more usable structure wise so one could easily find the interesting parts but no way. Now finally take - e.g. linux-club.de which has quite some better ordering so one could answer the interesting subjects besides having to dig through some "ITZ NO WORKZ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" crap that is unrelated to the subject. It was always declined with some "That's included in applications" and so on - e.g. I couldn't give a fuck about random applications but were interested in the security and server part - but no, "you" (as in the "forum" admins) refused to create some specific topics for those ....
Do you have some past here that is not apparent to me? I *am* one of the admins over there, but I'm relatively new as well. When's the last time you looked at the structure?
I'll read the other threads, hoping that they're a bit more on topic. And I'd even happily take position on each of those attacks, if someone manages to make a civil and focused discussion out of it.
Let's work together on this - as I said above, it's important to understand where this audience is coming from; it's a mix of technical and non-technical users, which in and of itself can be a volatile mix because of differences in how those two groups communicate.
Well, said audience has to accept that not everyones worlds spins around those "forums". So how about they simply accept this and adapt?
Turn that statement on its head; the audience you are a part of also has to accept that not everyone's world spins around the mailing lists. 40,000+ users in the forum. How many on the MLs? I'm not saying this is a question of "MLs vs. forums" - we should all be able to work together.
forum), the forums feel very disconnected from the rest of the project.
Then how about stop bitching "OMG they don't use the forums but some years older mailing list, it has to be some conspiracy. Finally get over it and accept that most devs do NOT use that forum since it is quite some waste of time (accessibility and structure wise)
I'm not going to be able to bend the entire user base in the forums to not "bitch". That comes out of developing that sense of acceptance that *some* people will want to use the forums. Some will use them from the web interface, some will use them from the NNTP interface, some will prefer IRC, some will prefer the MLs - there's a good mix of available options, and no *one* method is the end-all, be-all of community interaction. Swearing at the users who choose one you don't happen to like is counterproductive. Is the forum structure perfect? No, it isn't - but it's what we've got so far, and for many of the users, it's working pretty well. The vast majority of the posts are on-topic and don't involve a lot of what you call 'bitching' - read the "Help" sections rather than the "soapbox" section, and you'll see a fair amount of honest help being sought and provided. Many of the posts don't result in any sort of need to escalate a bug, because it's users learning how to use openSUSE. But sometimes there are bugs that come up, and to ignore those reports because they didn't come through the ML seems a little counterproductive to me. They *should* be in bugzilla, if they're bugs, but providing a clear escalation path from the forums (or the MLs or wherever) would be a good thing.
I think it also starts by acknowledging that things haven't worked as smoothly as they could have, and that the forums by and large have been the "red-headed stepchild" of the project (especially as far as developer involvement is concerned - James Tan is a notable exception in providing assistance in the Studio forum; there may be others I'm not aware of, though).
Now take e.g. that http://forums.opensuse.org/community/soapbox/440294-kde-3- a.html thread and wonder yourself why anyone with a sane mind wont touch those "forums" with a rotten stick.
You'll note that that's in the *soapbox* forum, which is generally not a place to post if you want to be taken seriously in the forums. The soapbox is self-described as "Strong opinions about mostly anything". It's not a support forum, nor is it intended to be taken seriously. Have a look in the forums where people are actually being helped, and you'll see a very different dynamic at work.
I haven't talked this over at any length with the other forum administrators (I'm one of the 3 admins), but would be willing to do whatever I can to help facilitate such a discussion with the rest of the admins and other staff.
Well, considering that your current structure plain sucks and you have been resistent to any arguments since more than a year I dare to say it is time you think it over.
I personally haven't been resistant to any *constructive* criticisms. Saying "D00D, IT SUXORSS!!!@!@!" isn't particularly constructive or helpful. Swearing at the admins and membership also isn't particularly helpful. So let's reset and try to start off on the right foot here, you and me (at least) and *help* each other rather than attack each other. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org