> >
> > Vojtěch Zeisek composed on 2020-11-27 10:20 (UTC+0100):
> >
> > > Bottom-posting is the standard here. Let's keep it so.
> >
> > > A: Yes.
> > >> Q: Are you sure?
> > >> > A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation.
> > >> > > Q: Why is top posting frowned upon?
> >
> > +++  

Hi all,
as someone who was subject of so-called public shaming, I have to take Vojtěch side on this, I know Vojtěch for ~ 15 years, and he was just mocking a friend on an issue we spoke about recently via IM, no ill intent can be attributed to that.


> I would like to reiterate that there are much kinder ways of helping
> people change their behaviors, and that you should always attempt to
> privately help the person who may be inadvertently doing the wrong
> thing. Shaming them publicly is a great way to scare people away and
> even potentially make existing folks leave.

World is more nuanced than just black and white, people can be "more aggressive / cynical / mocking" someone who they know personally for a long time and have the appropriate personality profile, insider knowledge of sorts... 

Let's assume the worst here, I won't report anything, but someone with a hero complex would take that conversation to the board complaining about Vojtěch's behavior, appropriate reaction from board side would be I believe to approach first myself (as "victim") and ask my opinion, and I would say "C'mon, Vojtěch, he is such as delicate flower I know him for ages, there is no harm intended on his side", case closed.

TL;DR context matters. BTW do I need to append "delicate flower" with a (/s)? Let's not be that kind of community please...
--
Best regards / S pozdravem,
BSc. Mark Stopka, BBA
Managing Partner (at) PERLUR Group

mobile: +420 704 373 561
website: www.perlur.cloud


On Sat, Nov 28, 2020 at 6:12 AM Neal Gompa <ngompa13@gmail.com> wrote:
Hey all,

We seem to have a problem on the openSUSE mailing list of shaming
people and assuming ill intent. This is exemplified by the following
thread excerpt:

On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 11:35 PM Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> Vojtěch Zeisek composed on 2020-11-27 10:20 (UTC+0100):
>
> > Bottom-posting is the standard here. Let's keep it so.
>
> > A: Yes.
> >> Q: Are you sure?
> >> > A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation.
> >> > > Q: Why is top posting frowned upon?
>
> +++

The problem with this is threefold:

1. You are deliberately shaming someone publicly
2. You are piling on the shame by reinforcing it
3. You are assuming that people cannot learn any other way (or ill intent)

None of this is actually *helpful*. And I would wager to say that the
majority of folks just flat out don't really care if it's top posted
or bottom posted. I personally don't. My email client collapses the
quotes the same regardless.

I realize that to some extent, I'm doing this too by posting this
message. But I have been seeing this to various degrees for *years*
and it's not only unhelpful, it literally scares people away from our
community. And I cannot stomach it anymore.

The openSUSE community is intended to be a welcoming place that allows
a variety of people from all over the world to work together to make
great things. And our Netiquette (which is now linked at the bottom of
*every single email from the list*) declares this kind of behavior as
undesirable.

It does occur to me that a large majority of the people on all
openSUSE lists do not know we have rules for the mailing lists. This
is why Stasiek and I decided that they would be added to the footer of
all emails that travel through the list server.

I would like to reiterate that there are much kinder ways of helping
people change their behaviors, and that you should always attempt to
privately help the person who may be inadvertently doing the wrong
thing. Shaming them publicly is a great way to scare people away and
even potentially make existing folks leave.

Please reconsider the next time you think about doing it. And consider
how *you* would feel if someone did it to you.


--
真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!
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