On Wed, Aug 26, 2009 at 4:52 PM, Sascha 'saigkill' Manns wrote:

I think Marketing and PR are very important. But this kind of Marketing i don't like. In Germany we say: "Vergleichende Werbung". That means, that it is not allowed that Mark A says, that Mark B isn't good.

We don't have that here. :-)

My thought is that OpenSource or we (openSUSE) must spend time to more Quality and more Usability. If we are good in that, we have an moneyless Marketing from "mouth to mouth".

Word of mouth is good, excellent in fact, but we also need to do some awareness building. Yes, more needs to be done for quality and usability, but that's less a marketing function than a testing and QA function. I think we've had that discussion before. :-) Best, Zonker -- Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier openSUSE Community Manager: http://zonker.opensuse.org Blogs: http://blogs.zdnet.com/community | http://www.dissociatedpress.net Twitter: jzb | Identica: jzb http://identi.ca/group/opensuse/members -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+help@opensuse.org

I think that there many types of the "average joe"... Someone will ask "Why free software" and another will come up with "Why not Windows". When we are marketing about us we must promote only ourselves. But when it comes to face-to-face promotion, then I think we have to do some comparison between free and proprietary software, but always not talking for a specific company. Highlights of user software needs from more important to less important (dedicated to average joe a.k.a. Regural Windows User) are:

Usability* Stability Security Support/Community Beauty

These are what an average user looks after. Okay, some users may put Beauty on top of Stability. But from our side, as people that define a distribution all these have equal priority. I think that if we do our best in satisfying the average user, then just a quick preview will be enough to convince them. Altough I still think that Windows is a complete technological fiasco - i would better say: flawed by design. And let me finish, by writing a quote from the movie "The Matrix" :) "Morpheus: I’m trying to free your mind, Neo. But I can only show you the door. You’re the one that has to walk through it." ...this is the way we (must) act. We can show them what Free/Open-Source Software is capable of. But they must choose whether or not to change the way they work and interact with their computers. Regards, George <RageCryX> Koutsikos ___________________________________________________________ Χρησιμοποιείτε Yahoo!; Βαρεθήκατε τα ενοχλητικά μηνύματα (spam); Το Yahoo! Mail διαθέτει την καλύτερη δυνατή προστασία κατά των ενοχλητικών μηνυμάτων http://login.yahoo.com/config/mail?.intl=gr -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+help@opensuse.org

On Wed, 2009-08-26 at 19:44 -0500, Rajko M. wrote:

On Wednesday 26 August 2009 05:14:28 pm Bryen M Yunashko wrote:

...

The message we have to focus on is how this will do the job they want to do.

Back to average Joe - whatever he wants is connected with multimedia, and I can't offer with openSUSE (or any other Linux) easy way to have that. I have to be present to install applications that will support that part of Joe's interest.

I agree that multi-media is a big challenge. The situation truly is a chicken and egg one. And that's why marketing to the average joe cannot just be limited to directly talking to joe, but also marketing to the holders of code that makes joe's experience a positive one. We have to show everyone why Linux is an important platform and needs to be part of the criteria list when coders are developing.

How strong is that interest - so strong that he will ask me to remove Linux (that is what he remembered) as he doesn't need it, and as explanation why he doesn't leave it and use for safe browsing, will give me that he wants space for windows. That is another thing he remembered.

...

So like Zonker basically says, forget about MS. Focus on us and the good things we do!

So, what we do good.

Safe browsing, efficient communication, the most hardware drivers out of the box, free to copy software on as many computers they want, firewall included, preventive protection (AppArmor,SElinux) against any threat instead of only known like antivirus.

Now craft a message that the average joe understands beyond just the word "virus" and "hacked" that includes the above benefits you mentioned and we'll push that message. Right now, the items you just listed.. "AppArmor", "SELinux", etc., goes over their heads.

Or, better, to be simple and understandable to Joe: Using Linux you save money.

-- Regards, Rajko http://news.opensuse.org/category/people-of-opensuse/

-- Bryen Yunashko openSUSE Board Member GNOME-A11y Team Member www.bryen.com (Personal Blog) www.planet-a11y.net (Feed aggregator of the Accessibility Community) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+help@opensuse.org

John, a very good response and I appreciate your thoughts here. Some in-line responses below: On Wed, 2009-08-26 at 21:51 -0500, John Lange wrote:

On Wed, 2009-08-26 at 17:14 -0500, Bryen M Yunashko wrote:

...

When we answer "Why?" we make the mistake of falling into a technical litany. Average Joe doesn't grasp those technical points. Those issues never even popped into their mind.

I think, somewhat ironically you do the same thing... You talk about MS security failings and never do answer the question "Why?" Not taking a shot at you, just making the point that "Why" is actually a really hard question to answer.

...

In fact, I would dare say that all the miscreants of the world that have made a mockery of Windows ... did MicroSoft a favor. You and I both know Microsoft has to take at least partial blame for this culture, but Average Joe doesn't get that.

I don't agree with that. Most people profess a "hate" of Microsoft and are eager to tell you "Microsoft sucks". Yet they continue to use their products.

Maybe I just hang around too many techs (I work at a company that does tech support) but I've never heard any of our techs (or clients) say positive things about about MS software. Despite that, not one of them runs anything other than Windows as their primary operating system or as far as I can tell has anything but a passing interest in Linux or (Mac for that matter).

As you've aptly pointed out, you are basing your experience with techs. I too have the same experience as you have. My "average joe" that I was referring to is the consumer that walks into Best Buy. So yes, you have made clear that there are different groups of "average joes" out there. And we need to remind ourselves of that as we develop marketing strategies.

The only thing putting a dent in MS market share is Apple's iPod (and now iPhone). The "coolness" surrounding those products has lead to a "dramatic" upswing in Mac sales. Dramatic in this case means, 7% of all users are now Mac users (up from 5%).

I'm seeing a lot more people replacing their PC's with Macs. I don't know the actual market share out there, but I have seen recent reports showing Apple having a very positive upswing in Mac sales. But it's about more than just sales. In fact, in our marketing strategies here, it isn't really even about sales. It's about mindshare. And Apple has successfully captured mindshare where we see not only people buying but also people who haven't bought saying "Hmm maybe I should try a Mac." What can we say about Linux mindshare to the average joe?

So, even with all the positive publicity that Apple gets combined with Microsoft's "un-cool factor", the best Apple can do is a 2% gain in 5(?) years.

...

The message we have to focus on is how this will do the job they want to do.

That isn't good enough. You have to answer "how will this do the job MUCH BETTER than what I have now?"

...

From the perspective of the average desktop user, Linux has never answered that question. And given the state of gaming and multi-media, it probably never will.

At best we've answered the question "how can I do most of what I used to do but cheaper?" But in reality Linux isn't even cheaper since the average desktop user gets Windows "free" with their PC purchase.

So where does that leave us?

...

So like Zonker basically says, forget about MS. Focus on us and the good things we do!

Exactly. Or focus on enjoying your own computing experience and who cares what everyone else is doing?

Maybe so. But let me remind you that this is the opensuse-marketing list. :-) So for those reading this list and participating on the marketing team, we are supposed to care. :-)

I told everyone that relied on me for technical support that "I don't do Windows". Either switch to SUSE or find someone else. All except one found someone else but at least I can proudly say that the percentage of users I support who are using Linux has jumped to 100%! Now THAT is good marketing spin! ;)

Keep it up John! Great job. And do spread the words to others about how you achieved this so that more of us can continue to spread Linux. Let me also point out another important marketing tip here. We are marketing openSUSE (both the project and the distribution). We are not marketing SUSE. Those are distinctly different products.

Besides, if Linux ever became popular then I'd have to switch to something even less popular than Linux is right now...

That reminds me, where did I put those OpenBSD floppies?

That reminds me. Where did I put those floppy drives?

-- John Lange http://www.johnlange.ca

-- Bryen Yunashko openSUSE Board Member GNOME-A11y Team Member www.bryen.com (Personal Blog) www.planet-a11y.net (Feed aggregator of the Accessibility Community) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+help@opensuse.org

Sorry to jump in late to this discussion but it's a very good one and I can't help myself. I'll assume this discussion pertains to Linux on the desktop as most of the discussion seems to indicate that. My 2 cents are that the "Average Joe" doesn't see much choice in OS and I think we have to remember that. If Joe walks into Best Buy the only computers he sees running Linux are either netbooks, routers, or storage devices and to make it worse he doesn't even know they are running Linux :(. I can honestly say that I've never walked into a mainstream computer store in the US and seen anything but Windows or Mac on a desktop or notebook. So if Average Joe buys a laptop, his only choice is between hardware manufacturers. He has no real choice in OS. However, let's say Average Joe has a friend who convinces him to try Linux. He still has to buy Windows on the PC at the local store and give up his support just to get the computer home and install Linux. Apple is a very interesting case IMHO. They developed an experience with the iPod that was so profound that they were able to create shopping experience around it. This then allowed them to showcase their technically superior products with the iPod. Having just watched my daughter who is 10 save up for an iPod I am amazed at what Apple has created. Here is a girl of 10 who makes maybe 5 dollars a week (plus birthdays) saving over 130 dollars to pay the Apple premium. Wow! So how did they do that? I believe it is a combination of quality and passion. They created a technically superior product and then a marketing campaign that drove adoption and created passionate users in a small focused market. Having said all of that I think Linux on the desktop has a good chance but I believe it has to take an approach that doesn't put it head-to-head against MSFT or Apple. For instance I believe that netbooks (maybe Moblin) could be the way to people's heart. Give them a great experience for less money than a comparable MSFT netbook. Then add even more value by doing things like subscription services for content (not unlike the Kindle), better picture and video management, social network integrations, and a better music experience. This will create passion for Linux because its more value for the money. Sorry about the ramble but my point is that we need 3 things and none are easy 1) A better product ( in some ways we have this and in others we need improvement) 2) Routes to market (how can Average Joe get us?) 3) A focused marketing campaign that builds passionate users in a targeted market (not unlike iPod) Brent -------------- Brent McConnell OSS Community Manager: Kablink, iFolder Email: bmcconnell@novell.com Twitter: http://twitter.com/emcconne Blog: http://mindby.com

...

...

Bryen M Yunashko 8/26/2009 11:10 PM >>> John, a very good response and I appreciate your thoughts here. Some in-line responses below:

On Wed, 2009-08-26 at 21:51 -0500, John Lange wrote:

On Wed, 2009-08-26 at 17:14 -0500, Bryen M Yunashko wrote:

...

When we answer "Why?" we make the mistake of falling into a technical litany. Average Joe doesn't grasp those technical points. Those issues never even popped into their mind.

I think, somewhat ironically you do the same thing... You talk about MS security failings and never do answer the question "Why?" Not taking a shot at you, just making the point that "Why" is actually a really hard question to answer.

...

In fact, I would dare say that all the miscreants of the world that have made a mockery of Windows ... did MicroSoft a favor. You and I both know Microsoft has to take at least partial blame for this culture, but Average Joe doesn't get that.

I don't agree with that. Most people profess a "hate" of Microsoft and are eager to tell you "Microsoft sucks". Yet they continue to use their products.

Maybe I just hang around too many techs (I work at a company that does tech support) but I've never heard any of our techs (or clients) say positive things about about MS software. Despite that, not one of them runs anything other than Windows as their primary operating system or as far as I can tell has anything but a passing interest in Linux or (Mac for that matter).

As you've aptly pointed out, you are basing your experience with techs. I too have the same experience as you have. My "average joe" that I was referring to is the consumer that walks into Best Buy. So yes, you have made clear that there are different groups of "average joes" out there. And we need to remind ourselves of that as we develop marketing strategies.

The only thing putting a dent in MS market share is Apple's iPod (and now iPhone). The "coolness" surrounding those products has lead to a "dramatic" upswing in Mac sales. Dramatic in this case means, 7% of all users are now Mac users (up from 5%).

I'm seeing a lot more people replacing their PC's with Macs. I don't know the actual market share out there, but I have seen recent reports showing Apple having a very positive upswing in Mac sales. But it's about more than just sales. In fact, in our marketing strategies here, it isn't really even about sales. It's about mindshare. And Apple has successfully captured mindshare where we see not only people buying but also people who haven't bought saying "Hmm maybe I should try a Mac." What can we say about Linux mindshare to the average joe?

So, even with all the positive publicity that Apple gets combined with Microsoft's "un-cool factor", the best Apple can do is a 2% gain in 5(?) years.

...

The message we have to focus on is how this will do the job they want to do.

That isn't good enough. You have to answer "how will this do the job MUCH BETTER than what I have now?"

...

From the perspective of the average desktop user, Linux has never answered that question. And given the state of gaming and multi-media, it probably never will.

At best we've answered the question "how can I do most of what I used to do but cheaper?" But in reality Linux isn't even cheaper since the average desktop user gets Windows "free" with their PC purchase.

So where does that leave us?

...

So like Zonker basically says, forget about MS. Focus on us and the good things we do!

Exactly. Or focus on enjoying your own computing experience and who cares what everyone else is doing?

Maybe so. But let me remind you that this is the opensuse-marketing list. :-) So for those reading this list and participating on the marketing team, we are supposed to care. :-)

I told everyone that relied on me for technical support that "I don't do Windows". Either switch to SUSE or find someone else. All except one found someone else but at least I can proudly say that the percentage of users I support who are using Linux has jumped to 100%! Now THAT is good marketing spin! ;)

Keep it up John! Great job. And do spread the words to others about how you achieved this so that more of us can continue to spread Linux. Let me also point out another important marketing tip here. We are marketing openSUSE (both the project and the distribution). We are not marketing SUSE. Those are distinctly different products.

Besides, if Linux ever became popular then I'd have to switch to something even less popular than Linux is right now...

That reminds me, where did I put those OpenBSD floppies?

That reminds me. Where did I put those floppy drives?

-- John Lange http://www.johnlange.ca

-- Bryen Yunashko openSUSE Board Member GNOME-A11y Team Member www.bryen.com (Personal Blog) www.planet-a11y.net (Feed aggregator of the Accessibility Community) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+help@opensuse.org

Do you mean premium or value? I think we have to pick something focused and show exceptional value. That's one reason why I suggested netbooks. I may be wrong here but the reasons people buy netbooks is to stay connected on the go with a small set of applications. I don't think they're looking for a total desktop solution (yet). If you look at most disruptive brands, brands that dislodged a formidable competitor, they tend to start with low end products and work there way up by consistently delivering more value at the low end. I agree that Average Joe doesn't care about Free+Freedom when it comes to the desktop and the reason is that he has very little choice when he buys his computer. It's like payroll withholding tax in the US. I'd much rather pay my taxes once a year but I can't. The government makes me do it every paycheck so that I forget how much I'm paying in total. Same for a computer. If everyone had a choice when they went into a store between laptop + MSFT = $599 or laptop + Linux = $499, you'd see alot more Linux :). Brent -------------- Brent McConnell OSS Community Manager: Kablink, iFolder Email: bmcconnell@novell.com Twitter: http://twitter.com/emcconne Blog: http://mindby.com

...

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Bryen M Yunashko 8/27/2009 10:00 AM >>> On Thu, 2009-08-27 at 07:43 -0600, Brent McConnell wrote: Sorry about the ramble but my point is that we need 3 things and none are easy

1) A better product ( in some ways we have this and in others we need improvement)

2) Routes to market (how can Average Joe get us?)

3) A focused marketing campaign that builds passionate users in a targeted market (not unlike iPod)

Brent

So how do we work on #3, building passionate users? In my opinion "Free + Freedom" hasn't worked too well. Sure it works well for those of us who understand the underlying differences between platforms, but not for the average joe. While the average joe loves and espouses freedom in nearly every other aspect of society, he just doesn't equate it with technology. In technology, they look for premium and top dollar. So for us, I don't think its about just passion, but making Linux truly look like a premium choice. -- Bryen Yunashko openSUSE Board Member GNOME-A11y Team Member www.bryen.com (Personal Blog) www.planet-a11y.net (Feed aggregator of the Accessibility Community) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+help@opensuse.org