[opensuse-kde] https://github.com/openSUSE/libzypp/pull/14

Stephan Kulow

25 Oct 2012 25 Oct '12

15:48

Hi, The zypp team wants to know if it's general consense in the KDE team to depriotize apper and use yast for package management before they merge that. Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

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Martin Schlander

25 Oct 25 Oct

18:12

Torsdag den 25. oktober 2012 17:48:17 skrev Stephan Kulow:

...

The zypp team wants to know if it's general consense in the KDE team to depriotize apper and use yast for package management before they merge that.

Apper was only ever intended to be used as an updater applet. Nothing more, and that will continue to be the case. Imho Apper should never have been preferred over YaST for handling clicking on local RPM files. So that patch doesn't mark any change in the prioritization of Apper - it just fixes a long standing bug. So please, pull. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

Cristian Morales Vega

26 Oct 26 Oct

08:38

On 25 October 2012 19:12, Martin Schlander wrote:

...

Torsdag den 25. oktober 2012 17:48:17 skrev Stephan Kulow:

...
The zypp team wants to know if it's general consense in the KDE team to depriotize apper and use yast for package management before they merge that.

Apper was only ever intended to be used as an updater applet. Nothing more, and that will continue to be the case.

Notice that "System Settings"->"Software Management" also uses Apper instead of YaST. Not just for updates.

...

Imho Apper should never have been preferred over YaST for handling clicking on local RPM files. So that patch doesn't mark any change in the prioritization of Apper - it just fixes a long standing bug.

There were ever an actual bug report? If it didn't users seem to be happy with it (or too lazy). And if it's a "long standing" bug at this point perhaps they are already used to the new behaviour and going back would just be a new change that confuses them.

...

So please, pull.

Since you where the one adding it to the wiki it doesn't really seem to add value to the argument ;-) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

Martin Schlander

16:39

Fredag den 26. oktober 2012 09:38:22 skrev Cristian Morales Vega:

...

On 25 October 2012 19:12, Martin Schlander wrote:

...
Torsdag den 25. oktober 2012 17:48:17 skrev Stephan Kulow:

...
The zypp team wants to know if it's general consense in the KDE team to depriotize apper and use yast for package management before they merge that.> Apper was only ever intended to be used as an updater applet. Nothing more, and that will continue to be the case.

Notice that "System Settings"->"Software Management" also uses Apper instead of YaST. Not just for updates.

Naturally full-featured Apper is available in the installation, including the upstream Systemsettings KCM. But that doesn't change the fact that the only reason Apper is included in the default install, is because opensuseupdater was dropped, and a new updater applet was needed. But the presence of the KCM does of course add confusion for the user about which package management tool is the official, main, recommended, canonical one for openSUSE, which is one of a long list of reasons why YaST should be used for installation of local RPMs by default and not Apper.

...

...
Imho Apper should never have been preferred over YaST for handling clicking on local RPM files. So that patch doesn't mark any change in the prioritization of Apper - it just fixes a long standing bug.

There were ever an actual bug report? If it didn't users seem to be happy with it (or too lazy). And if it's a "long standing" bug at this point perhaps they are already used to the new behaviour and going back would just be a new change that confuses them.

I'm sure there are tons of bugreports about Apper/KPackageKit failing to install local RPMs. At least I've tried to guide a million people through installing skype and other crapola with zypper on IRC, because of PackageKit consistently failing. If someone will stand up and say they deliberately and intentionally replaced 100% reliable, SUSE developed YaST with a Red Hat research experiment, for the handling of an import task like local RPM installation. I might be convinced this was not a bug from the start. You should read some mailing lists or IRC support channels though, users want to keep usage of PackageKit at an absolute minimum.

...

...
So please, pull.

Since you where the one adding it to the wiki it doesn't really seem to add value to the argument ;-)

Well, that makes me and Terietor at least. And I don't see anyone jumping to argue that we should put more of our fate in the hands of PackageKit than is absolutely necessary. Did you read any reviews about 12.2 - what was the main painpoint in 90% of them? Right, PackageKit. Are you actually arguing for the continued pushing of Apper on users? And placing more of our fate in the hands of PackageKit, or are you just looking for an argument? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

Yamaban

17:25

New subject: [opensuse-kde] Re: Re: https://github.com/openSUSE/libzypp/pull/14

On Fri, 26 Oct 2012 18:39, Martin Schlander wrote:

...

Fredag den 26. oktober 2012 09:38:22 skrev Cristian Morales Vega:

...
On 25 October 2012 19:12, Martin Schlander wrote:

...
Torsdag den 25. oktober 2012 17:48:17 skrev Stephan Kulow:

...
The zypp team wants to know if it's general consense in the KDE team to depriotize apper and use yast for package management before they merge that.> Apper was only ever intended to be used as an updater applet. Nothing more, and that will continue to be the case.

Notice that "System Settings"->"Software Management" also uses Apper instead of YaST. Not just for updates.

Naturally full-featured Apper is available in the installation, including the upstream Systemsettings KCM. But that doesn't change the fact that the only reason Apper is included in the default install, is because opensuseupdater was dropped, and a new updater applet was needed.

But the presence of the KCM does of course add confusion for the user about which package management tool is the official, main, recommended, canonical one for openSUSE, which is one of a long list of reasons why YaST should be used for installation of local RPMs by default and not Apper.

...
...
Imho Apper should never have been preferred over YaST for handling clicking on local RPM files. So that patch doesn't mark any change in the prioritization of Apper - it just fixes a long standing bug.

There were ever an actual bug report? If it didn't users seem to be happy with it (or too lazy). And if it's a "long standing" bug at this point perhaps they are already used to the new behaviour and going back would just be a new change that confuses them.

I'm sure there are tons of bugreports about Apper/KPackageKit failing to install local RPMs. At least I've tried to guide a million people through installing skype and other crapola with zypper on IRC, because of PackageKit consistently failing.

If someone will stand up and say they deliberately and intentionally replaced 100% reliable, SUSE developed YaST with a Red Hat research experiment, for the handling of an import task like local RPM installation. I might be convinced this was not a bug from the start.

You should read some mailing lists or IRC support channels though, users want to keep usage of PackageKit at an absolute minimum.

...
...
So please, pull.

Since you where the one adding it to the wiki it doesn't really seem to add value to the argument ;-)

Well, that makes me and Terietor at least.

And I don't see anyone jumping to argue that we should put more of our fate in the hands of PackageKit than is absolutely necessary. Did you read any reviews about 12.2 - what was the main painpoint in 90% of them? Right, PackageKit.

Are you actually arguing for the continued pushing of Apper on users? And placing more of our fate in the hands of PackageKit, or are you just looking for an argument?

+1 on Martin Schlanders arguments. In openSUSE 10.2 was a systemtray-app that called Yast to do the updates. Anything else since then had more or less massive failures and errors. Please for the sanity of all that do support: Reduce the influence of Apper as much as possible. If you can trash PackageKit and Apper at all. You push a python applet as Printer-handler (what a waste of space). Is Yast / zypper that much more complex that the same can't be done? Not much info, please: - when was the last meta-data-update - are there available updates for the installed packages - a button to start a meta-data-update NOW. - a button to start Yast Online Update (with admin-rights). Meta-data updates can be done via /usr/sbin/zypp-refresh(-wrapper). Check for available updates also via zypper (exit code check). Is this so hard? I'm frustrated with PackageKit and Apper. "zypper al '*PackageKit*' '*apper*'" is a great way to reduce future headaches during system install. (Yes, it breaks some dependencies.) -- Yamaban. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

Cristian Morales Vega

17:37

On 26 October 2012 17:39, Martin Schlander wrote:

...

Fredag den 26. oktober 2012 09:38:22 skrev Cristian Morales Vega:

...
On 25 October 2012 19:12, Martin Schlander wrote:

...
Torsdag den 25. oktober 2012 17:48:17 skrev Stephan Kulow:

...
The zypp team wants to know if it's general consense in the KDE team to depriotize apper and use yast for package management before they merge that.> Apper was only ever intended to be used as an updater applet. Nothing more, and that will continue to be the case.

Notice that "System Settings"->"Software Management" also uses Apper instead of YaST. Not just for updates.

Naturally full-featured Apper is available in the installation, including the upstream Systemsettings KCM. But that doesn't change the fact that the only reason Apper is included in the default install, is because opensuseupdater was dropped, and a new updater applet was needed.

You make it look like if there was something that actually *forced* us to drop kupdateapplet. Actually in 11.2 it was there with both zypp and packagekit backends: https://build.opensuse.org/package/binaries?package=kupdateapplet&project=DISCONTINUED%3AopenSUSE%3A11.2&repository=standard In 11.3 it was still there but **OPENSUSE (KDE Team)** already decided to drop the zypp backend and use PackageKit: http://gitorious.org/opensuse/kupdateapplet/commit/fd3e44863e3518cc3df8e8500... And for 11.4 **OPENSUSE (KDE Team)** decide to drop it completely and leave only kpackagekit. I am not sure if before 11.4 kpackagekit was the default updater. But in any case it's clear that it was a decision to progresively use more PackageKit. In fact kupdateapplet still can be used in the latest openSUSE without problems. It's even building!! -> https://build.opensuse.org/package/show?package=kupdateapplet&project=KDE%3ADistro%3AFactory The zypp backend is disabled, but since it doesn't use libzypp directly I don't think it would be difficult to reenable it. If you (the openSUSE KDE team?) really want to totally get rid of PackageKit it's really easy. You don't need it to install local RPMs, and neither do you need it for updates.

...

But the presence of the KCM does of course add confusion for the user about which package management tool is the official, main, recommended, canonical one for openSUSE, which is one of a long list of reasons why YaST should be used for installation of local RPMs by default and not Apper.

I don't really follow the argument. Since everything but YaST and zypp uses PackageKit changing the program that handles the local RPMs **ADDs** to the confusion. Unless you remove the "Software Management" from the "System Settins" (or make it open YaST). If the latter... OK, but do both. And go back to kupdateapplet!! Again, nothing forced the openSUSE KDE team to change to kpackagekit. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

Cristian Morales Vega

17:56

On 26 October 2012 18:37, Cristian Morales Vega wrote:

...

On 26 October 2012 17:39, Martin Schlander wrote:

...
Fredag den 26. oktober 2012 09:38:22 skrev Cristian Morales Vega:

...
On 25 October 2012 19:12, Martin Schlander wrote:

...
Torsdag den 25. oktober 2012 17:48:17 skrev Stephan Kulow:

...
The zypp team wants to know if it's general consense in the KDE team to depriotize apper and use yast for package management before they merge that.> Apper was only ever intended to be used as an updater applet. Nothing more, and that will continue to be the case.

Notice that "System Settings"->"Software Management" also uses Apper instead of YaST. Not just for updates.

Naturally full-featured Apper is available in the installation, including the upstream Systemsettings KCM. But that doesn't change the fact that the only reason Apper is included in the default install, is because opensuseupdater was dropped, and a new updater applet was needed.

You make it look like if there was something that actually *forced* us to drop kupdateapplet.

I have to go and I didn't test it. But FWIW, you have the old kupdateapplet with ZYpp support (meaning without packagekit) in home:RedDwarf build for openSUSE 12.2. Not exactly difficult... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

Sven Burmeister

18:41

Am Freitag, 26. Oktober 2012, 18:56:17 schrieb Cristian Morales Vega:

...

...
...
Naturally full-featured Apper is available in the installation, including the upstream Systemsettings KCM. But that doesn't change the fact that the only reason Apper is included in the default install, is because opensuseupdater was dropped, and a new updater applet was needed.

You make it look like if there was something that actually *forced* us to drop kupdateapplet.

I have to go and I didn't test it. But FWIW, you have the old kupdateapplet with ZYpp support (meaning without packagekit) in home:RedDwarf build for openSUSE 12.2. Not exactly difficult...

I remember the applet giving all kinds of issues, staying red if there were no security updates, not turning red if there were etc. It seemed unmaintained and buggy to me. And what people forget is that the purpose of packagekit is to allow users to install updates without entering the root password. Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

Cristian Morales Vega

27 Oct 27 Oct

09:30

On 26 October 2012 19:41, Sven Burmeister wrote:

...

Am Freitag, 26. Oktober 2012, 18:56:17 schrieb Cristian Morales Vega:

...
...
...
Naturally full-featured Apper is available in the installation, including the upstream Systemsettings KCM. But that doesn't change the fact that the only reason Apper is included in the default install, is because opensuseupdater was dropped, and a new updater applet was needed.

You make it look like if there was something that actually *forced* us to drop kupdateapplet.

I have to go and I didn't test it. But FWIW, you have the old kupdateapplet with ZYpp support (meaning without packagekit) in home:RedDwarf build for openSUSE 12.2. Not exactly difficult...

I remember the applet giving all kinds of issues, staying red if there were no security updates, not turning red if there were etc. It seemed unmaintained and buggy to me.

And what people forget is that the purpose of packagekit is to allow users to install updates without entering the root password.

Oh surprise, people only complains when there is a problem for them. Now people complains because about PackageKit because openSUSE uses it and it's problematic for them. Let's start using kupdateapplet and magically nobody will complain about PackageKit since... well, nobody will be using it. But we will start to enjoy complains about kupdateapplet. Magically bnc#736100 will start to be kupdateapplet and not Apper's fault (hint: it's ZYpp fault). I want a working PackageKit. Other than that I don't care if there is a broken PackageKit or no PackageKit at all. But please, be consistent. If PackageKit is wanted... do nothing. But if PackageKit isn't wanted remove it from everywhere: - "application/x-rpm" and "application/x-redhat-package-manager" default MIME handler - update applet - System Settings->Software Management - any other place where it's used The three changes require the incredible workload of... a single person working for 1 hour. So please, no excuses. If it's not done it will be because nobody able to create a patch from a bit of copy&paste really thinks PackageKit is such a big problem. And I know the openSUSE KDE Team is able of a lot more. This Wednesday there is an openSUSE KDE Team meeting. It would be nice if on Thursday we would get a clear answer from the openSUSE KDE Team as a whole. I will keep the kupdateapplet package in my home repo until the first of November. Then it will be deleted. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

Martin Schlander

09:58

Fredag den 26. oktober 2012 18:37:36 skrev Cristian Morales Vega:

...

**OPENSUSE (KDE Team)** already decided to drop the zypp backend and use PackageKit: http://gitorious.org/opensuse/kupdateapplet/commit/fd3e44863e3518cc3df8e8500 07d07602cb70161 And for 11.4 **OPENSUSE (KDE Team)** decide to drop it completely and leave only kpackagekit.

Tgoettlicher is not the KDE team. Kupdateapplet was maintained by YaST/zypp guys, YaST/zypp guys decided for mysterious reasons to prefer the PK backend over the zypp-backend, and subsquently YaST/zypp guys decided to drop kupdateapplet. But this has little relevance for the handling of local RPM installation. Noone is saying Apper shouldn't be included as an updater applet.

...

...
But the presence of the KCM does of course add confusion for the user about which package management tool is the official, main, recommended, canonical one for openSUSE, which is one of a long list of reasons why YaST should be used for installation of local RPMs by default and not Apper.

I don't really follow the argument. Since everything but YaST and zypp uses PackageKit changing the program that handles the local RPMs **ADDs** to the confusion.

YaST and zypper are the main openSUSE package management tools. sw_single has a very prominent position in the Kickoff computer tab - much more prominent than the presence of Apper in systemsettings. openSUSE documentation refers to YaST for managing software. Etc. etc. Hence clearly YaST should also be used for local RPM installation, sending a clear signal to the user that YaST is _the_ openSUSE package management GUI (ignoring for a minute the fact that YaST is so much more reliable than PackageKit).

...

Unless you remove the "Software Management" from the "System Settins" (or make it open YaST).

There is a long standing open bug report to change the name of that KCM, so it doesn't confuse people and clash with the naming of sw_single in YaST.

...

go back to kupdateapplet!!

It would be awesome if KUpdateApplet and the zypp backend were maintained of course, but this won't happen. And besides it's completely irrelevant for the topic at hand, which is the handling of local RPM installation. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

Cristian Morales Vega

11:25

On 27 October 2012 10:58, Martin Schlander wrote:

...

Fredag den 26. oktober 2012 18:37:36 skrev Cristian Morales Vega:

...
**OPENSUSE (KDE Team)** already decided to drop the zypp backend and use PackageKit: http://gitorious.org/opensuse/kupdateapplet/commit/fd3e44863e3518cc3df8e8500 07d07602cb70161 And for 11.4 **OPENSUSE (KDE Team)** decide to drop it completely and leave only kpackagekit.

Tgoettlicher is not the KDE team. Kupdateapplet was maintained by YaST/zypp

It's a member. Or so says the wiki http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:KDE_team.

...

guys, YaST/zypp guys decided for mysterious reasons to prefer the PK backend over the zypp-backend, and subsquently YaST/zypp guys decided to drop kupdateapplet.

Reasons stop being "mysterious" once you ask what the reasons are.

...

From your explanations and the wiki content this is what I am understanding:

- One openSUSE KDE member decided to drop direct zypp support from the update applet against the will of the rest of the team - Nobody decided to ask him why - Nobody else from the openSUSE KDE team decided to start maintaining an update applet that is 99% KDE, ZYpp-agnostic, open source code with just a few calls to the zypper and zypp-refresh commands through wrappers. - Given the impossibility of asking a question to one of your own members, or maintaining a piece of open source KDE code that has kept working without maintainership for nearly two years, you were left with no other option but use KPackagekit/Apper as update applet. Ignore the wiki, let's suppose Thomas is not a openSUSE KDE team member... It still makes no sense. I can't really believe that story!! It makes a lot more sense to think that the openSUSE KDE Team just decided to start using PackageKit. And if they/you want to use it for the updater, it only makes sense that they/you also want to use it for local RPM installations. Or, why a **one line fix** has been a "long standing bug"? Again, it makes more sense to think that nobody has changed it during this "long" time because it wasn't considered a bug and instead the openSUSE KDE team actually wanted it to be handled by Apper. Or is the team in such a need of manpower/new members? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

Christian Trippe

28 Oct 28 Oct

18:42

Am Samstag, 27. Oktober 2012, 12:25:23 schrieb Cristian Morales Vega:

...

On 27 October 2012 10:58, Martin Schlander wrote:

...
Fredag den 26. oktober 2012 18:37:36 skrev Cristian Morales Vega:

...
**OPENSUSE (KDE Team)** already decided to drop the zypp backend and use PackageKit: http://gitorious.org/opensuse/kupdateapplet/commit/fd3e44863e3518cc3df8e8 500 07d07602cb70161 And for 11.4 **OPENSUSE (KDE Team)** decide to drop it completely and leave only kpackagekit.

Tgoettlicher is not the KDE team. Kupdateapplet was maintained by YaST/zypp

It's a member. Or so says the wiki http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:KDE_team.

...
guys, YaST/zypp guys decided for mysterious reasons to prefer the PK backend over the zypp-backend, and subsquently YaST/zypp guys decided to drop kupdateapplet.

Reasons stop being "mysterious" once you ask what the reasons are. From your explanations and the wiki content this is what I am understanding:

- One openSUSE KDE member decided to drop direct zypp support from the update applet against the will of the rest of the team - Nobody decided to ask him why - Nobody else from the openSUSE KDE team decided to start maintaining an update applet that is 99% KDE, ZYpp-agnostic, open source code with just a few calls to the zypper and zypp-refresh commands through wrappers. - Given the impossibility of asking a question to one of your own members, or maintaining a piece of open source KDE code that has kept working without maintainership for nearly two years, you were left with no other option but use KPackagekit/Apper as update applet.

Ignore the wiki, let's suppose Thomas is not a openSUSE KDE team member... It still makes no sense.

I can't really believe that story!! It makes a lot more sense to think that the openSUSE KDE Team just decided to start using PackageKit. And if they/you want to use it for the updater, it only makes sense that they/you also want to use it for local RPM installations.

No apper (or kpackagekit back then) was only used because kupdateapplet was dropped, if I remember correctly.

...

Or, why a **one line fix** has been a "long standing bug"? Again, it makes more sense to think that nobody has changed it during this "long" time because it wasn't considered a bug and instead the openSUSE KDE team actually wanted it to be handled by Apper. Or is the team in such a need of manpower/new members?

IMHO yes. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

Martin Schlander

18:56

Søndag den 28. oktober 2012 19:42:21 skrev Christian Trippe:

...

Am Samstag, 27. Oktober 2012, 12:25:23 schrieb Cristian Morales Vega:

...
Or, why a **one line fix** has been a "long standing bug"? Again, it makes more sense to think that nobody has changed it during this "long" time because it wasn't considered a bug and instead the openSUSE KDE team actually wanted it to be handled by Apper. Or is the team in such a need of manpower/new members?

IMHO yes.

That, and a questionable prioritization of what to fix. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

Cristian Morales Vega

19:30

On 28 October 2012 18:42, Christian Trippe wrote:

...

Am Samstag, 27. Oktober 2012, 12:25:23 schrieb Cristian Morales Vega:

...
On 27 October 2012 10:58, Martin Schlander wrote:

...
Fredag den 26. oktober 2012 18:37:36 skrev Cristian Morales Vega:

...
**OPENSUSE (KDE Team)** already decided to drop the zypp backend and use PackageKit: http://gitorious.org/opensuse/kupdateapplet/commit/fd3e44863e3518cc3df8e8 500 07d07602cb70161 And for 11.4 **OPENSUSE (KDE Team)** decide to drop it completely and leave only kpackagekit.

Tgoettlicher is not the KDE team. Kupdateapplet was maintained by YaST/zypp

It's a member. Or so says the wiki http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:KDE_team.

...
guys, YaST/zypp guys decided for mysterious reasons to prefer the PK backend over the zypp-backend, and subsquently YaST/zypp guys decided to drop kupdateapplet.

Reasons stop being "mysterious" once you ask what the reasons are. From your explanations and the wiki content this is what I am understanding:

- One openSUSE KDE member decided to drop direct zypp support from the update applet against the will of the rest of the team - Nobody decided to ask him why - Nobody else from the openSUSE KDE team decided to start maintaining an update applet that is 99% KDE, ZYpp-agnostic, open source code with just a few calls to the zypper and zypp-refresh commands through wrappers. - Given the impossibility of asking a question to one of your own members, or maintaining a piece of open source KDE code that has kept working without maintainership for nearly two years, you were left with no other option but use KPackagekit/Apper as update applet.

Ignore the wiki, let's suppose Thomas is not a openSUSE KDE team member... It still makes no sense.

I can't really believe that story!! It makes a lot more sense to think that the openSUSE KDE Team just decided to start using PackageKit. And if they/you want to use it for the updater, it only makes sense that they/you also want to use it for local RPM installations.

No apper (or kpackagekit back then) was only used because kupdateapplet was dropped, if I remember correctly.

Once again. How that explanation is supposed to fit in a world where: - Will Stephenson has been expending an awful amount of time trying to fix Apper - I spent just one hour making kupdateapplet work ? I want to believe you. But the real world keeps saying that if the openSUSE KDE Team wanted to keep kupdateapplet it only needed to ask Will to expend ONE of the multiple hours he expended in Apper in kupdateapplet. But let's make this easy. I created submit request #139623 to go back to use kupdateapplet. If the openSUSE KDE team wants to get rid of PackageKit it only needs to do a single click on "Accept". And since nobody else did, I just added the topic for discussion in the meeting from Wednesday. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

Martin Schlander

20:26

Søndag den 28. oktober 2012 19:30:42 skrev Cristian Morales Vega:

...

I want to believe you. But the real world keeps saying that if the openSUSE KDE Team wanted to keep kupdateapplet it only needed to ask Will to expend ONE of the multiple hours he expended in Apper in kupdateapplet.

I still can't believe your cluelessness of the KDE team, who is on it, and how it works. But you're definitely not the first one to question whether constantly fixing packagekit, could possibly be less work than maintaining kupdateapplet.

...

But let's make this easy. I created submit request #139623 to go back to use kupdateapplet. If the openSUSE KDE team wants to get rid of PackageKit it only needs to do a single click on "Accept". And since nobody else did, I just added the topic for discussion in the meeting from Wednesday.

If it actually works well, and you're planning to maintain it for the long haul, fix bugs, handle localization etc., there should be a good chance. Certainly it would be great just to have it in the distro as an alternative. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

Cristian Morales Vega

20:41

On 28 October 2012 20:26, Martin Schlander wrote:

...

Søndag den 28. oktober 2012 19:30:42 skrev Cristian Morales Vega:

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I want to believe you. But the real world keeps saying that if the openSUSE KDE Team wanted to keep kupdateapplet it only needed to ask Will to expend ONE of the multiple hours he expended in Apper in kupdateapplet.

I still can't believe your cluelessness of the KDE team, who is on it, and how it works.

If the answer to "who is on it?" isn't: "the people on the Members section of http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:KDE_team" then it shouldn't be so hard to believe. You know, people can't get wrong impressions when the documentation is wrong. Can I ask you to please update that page with whatever is the correct answer to "who is on it?"? Also, I am going to do the only thing I can to fix my ignorance and I am going to make you one question: "How does it work?"

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But let's make this easy. I created submit request #139623 to go back to use kupdateapplet. If the openSUSE KDE team wants to get rid of PackageKit it only needs to do a single click on "Accept". And since nobody else did, I just added the topic for discussion in the meeting from Wednesday.

If it actually works well, and you're planning to maintain it for the long haul, fix bugs, handle localization etc., there should be a good chance.

I added a comment to the SR to make this clear. *I* am not going to maintain it. Take it just like an offer of a little fix to make it easier for somebody else to start maintaining it. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

Martin Schlander

21:37

Søndag den 28. oktober 2012 20:41:39 skrev Cristian Morales Vega:

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On 28 October 2012 20:26, Martin Schlander wrote:

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I still can't believe your cluelessness of the KDE team, who is on it, and how it works.

Also, I am going to do the only thing I can to fix my ignorance and I am going to make you one question: "How does it work?"

Like any other part of the distro that is not critical to SLES. There's no master plan or large team in an ivory tower executing well thought-out plans. There's just a bunch of individuals scratching their own itches. There's some coordination on IRC or the mailing list and wiki but not that much. And whoever does the work, gets to decide. There's no resources for any development, barely enough manpower to package important upstream stuff. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

Stephan Kulow

31 Oct 31 Oct

13:01

On 28.10.2012 20:30, Cristian Morales Vega wrote:

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On 28 October 2012 18:42, Christian Trippe wrote:

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Am Samstag, 27. Oktober 2012, 12:25:23 schrieb Cristian Morales Vega:

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On 27 October 2012 10:58, Martin Schlander wrote:

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Fredag den 26. oktober 2012 18:37:36 skrev Cristian Morales Vega:

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**OPENSUSE (KDE Team)** already decided to drop the zypp backend and use PackageKit: http://gitorious.org/opensuse/kupdateapplet/commit/fd3e44863e3518cc3df8e8 500 07d07602cb70161 And for 11.4 **OPENSUSE (KDE Team)** decide to drop it completely and leave only kpackagekit.

Tgoettlicher is not the KDE team. Kupdateapplet was maintained by YaST/zypp

It's a member. Or so says the wiki http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:KDE_team.

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guys, YaST/zypp guys decided for mysterious reasons to prefer the PK backend over the zypp-backend, and subsquently YaST/zypp guys decided to drop kupdateapplet.

Reasons stop being "mysterious" once you ask what the reasons are. From your explanations and the wiki content this is what I am understanding:

- One openSUSE KDE member decided to drop direct zypp support from the update applet against the will of the rest of the team - Nobody decided to ask him why - Nobody else from the openSUSE KDE team decided to start maintaining an update applet that is 99% KDE, ZYpp-agnostic, open source code with just a few calls to the zypper and zypp-refresh commands through wrappers. - Given the impossibility of asking a question to one of your own members, or maintaining a piece of open source KDE code that has kept working without maintainership for nearly two years, you were left with no other option but use KPackagekit/Apper as update applet.

Ignore the wiki, let's suppose Thomas is not a openSUSE KDE team member... It still makes no sense.

I can't really believe that story!! It makes a lot more sense to think that the openSUSE KDE Team just decided to start using PackageKit. And if they/you want to use it for the updater, it only makes sense that they/you also want to use it for local RPM installations.

No apper (or kpackagekit back then) was only used because kupdateapplet was dropped, if I remember correctly.

Once again. How that explanation is supposed to fit in a world where: - Will Stephenson has been expending an awful amount of time trying to fix Apper - I spent just one hour making kupdateapplet work ?

I want to believe you. But the real world keeps saying that if the openSUSE KDE Team wanted to keep kupdateapplet it only needed to ask Will to expend ONE of the multiple hours he expended in Apper in kupdateapplet.

But kupdateapplet requires the root password for every update, the packagekit backend (in apper) does not. Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

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Christian Trippe
Cristian Morales Vega
Martin Schlander
Stephan Kulow
Sven Burmeister
Yamaban

[opensuse-kde] https://github.com/openSUSE/libzypp/pull/14

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