[opensuse-kde] what's the point with KDE 4...
... every time i go back to playing&poking around in KDE 4 i find the following: - one piece of eyecandy that i havent seen before that makes me go "oooh pretty cool" - one function that i am used to have in KDE3 and am kind of dependant on, and that makes me go "oh this is seriously broken" in the last iteration of this i found: - amarok being able to get music from jamendo - kontact / korganizer not showing appointments that span whole days now what is more important? free music or a working calendar? -- gpg key fingerprint: 5F64 4C92 9B77 DE37 D184 C5F9 B013 44E7 27BD 763C -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kde+help@opensuse.org
Tirsdag 17 marts 2009 18:27:13 skrev Mathias Homann:
... every time i go back to playing&poking around in KDE 4 i find the following:
- one piece of eyecandy that i havent seen before that makes me go "oooh pretty cool" - one function that i am used to have in KDE3 and am kind of dependant on, and that makes me go "oh this is seriously broken"
in the last iteration of this i found: - amarok being able to get music from jamendo - kontact / korganizer not showing appointments that span whole days
now what is more important? free music or a working calendar?
You seem to have misunderstood a few things. Do you have any reason to think your problems are openSUSE specific? If not, there's no point in ranting about them here, instead you should file proper bug reports for your problems upstream, if they haven't already been reported. And Amarok developers can't magically be reassigned to work on kdepim - they might not have the interest or the expertise. Just like you can't easily be reassigned to doing more constructive things than trolling on a mailing list. You do understand that most of these developers are not paid by anybody? If you bothered to follow KDE4 development instead of obsessing about KDE3 you'd see that KDE4 has tons of nice features that KDE3 doesn't, and that KDE4 is continually improving at an amazing pace, even though you're not helping. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kde+help@opensuse.org
Hi, I don't believe that you wrote what you wrote. If you mean, that the holy developer have to be holy and the producing of any software is just for playing around and have a good time, THAN DON'T SALE that stuff and play with it! If Novell is pronouncing KDE 4 as a stable system ready for work, THAN I want exactly THAT for the money I paid for and not that kiddy-scripting- just-clicking-and-crashing-better-than-windows stuff! If you mean, that everybody who need to criticism something about KDE, have to develop or help, change your business! If you are not able to develop a stable system, don't talk about features, stupid or not! And, if you mean KDE4 IS stable, sleep well or learn too develop! After 15 years with SuSE, I'm really fed up with such an answer I read too often in the last few months escpecially about KDE4! Outside of your little world are enough user who give you the honor to use the software you produce. So open your ears and hear what they say. Without the user outside there is no need for developers! And there is also no need, that everybody who use openSource-Software have to help to develop it. Wake up and change your mind. The time is really over that Linux and every derivates is just for hacker and script-cracker. Answers like yours are one of the reason why Linux don't arrives more user than until now. ... >/dev/null 2>&1 Oliver --- Am Dienstag, 17. März 2009 schrieb Martin Schlander:
Tirsdag 17 marts 2009 18:27:13 skrev Mathias Homann:
... every time i go back to playing&poking around in KDE 4 i find the following:
- one piece of eyecandy that i havent seen before that makes me go "oooh pretty cool" - one function that i am used to have in KDE3 and am kind of dependant on, and that makes me go "oh this is seriously broken"
in the last iteration of this i found: - amarok being able to get music from jamendo - kontact / korganizer not showing appointments that span whole days
now what is more important? free music or a working calendar?
You seem to have misunderstood a few things.
Do you have any reason to think your problems are openSUSE specific? If not, there's no point in ranting about them here, instead you should file proper bug reports for your problems upstream, if they haven't already been reported.
And Amarok developers can't magically be reassigned to work on kdepim - they might not have the interest or the expertise. Just like you can't easily be reassigned to doing more constructive things than trolling on a mailing list. You do understand that most of these developers are not paid by anybody?
If you bothered to follow KDE4 development instead of obsessing about KDE3 you'd see that KDE4 has tons of nice features that KDE3 doesn't, and that KDE4 is continually improving at an amazing pace, even though you're not helping.
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kde+help@opensuse.org
You are aware that you mostly scream at developers who do this job without payment, just because they want ? You want to dictate them what they have to do in their spare time ? Please try to use a communication style, you would also use when these friendly developers are sitting right in front of you. thanks adrian Am Mittwoch, 18. März 2009 01:40:31 schrieb Oliver:
Hi,
I don't believe that you wrote what you wrote. If you mean, that the holy developer have to be holy and the producing of any software is just for playing around and have a good time, THAN DON'T SALE that stuff and play with it!
If Novell is pronouncing KDE 4 as a stable system ready for work, THAN I want exactly THAT for the money I paid for and not that kiddy-scripting- just-clicking-and-crashing-better-than-windows stuff!
If you mean, that everybody who need to criticism something about KDE, have to develop or help, change your business!
If you are not able to develop a stable system, don't talk about features, stupid or not! And, if you mean KDE4 IS stable, sleep well or learn too develop!
After 15 years with SuSE, I'm really fed up with such an answer I read too often in the last few months escpecially about KDE4!
Outside of your little world are enough user who give you the honor to use the software you produce. So open your ears and hear what they say. Without the user outside there is no need for developers! And there is also no need, that everybody who use openSource-Software have to help to develop it.
Wake up and change your mind. The time is really over that Linux and every derivates is just for hacker and script-cracker. Answers like yours are one of the reason why Linux don't arrives more user than until now.
... >/dev/null 2>&1
Oliver
---
Am Dienstag, 17. März 2009 schrieb Martin Schlander:
Tirsdag 17 marts 2009 18:27:13 skrev Mathias Homann:
... every time i go back to playing&poking around in KDE 4 i find the following:
- one piece of eyecandy that i havent seen before that makes me go "oooh pretty cool" - one function that i am used to have in KDE3 and am kind of dependant on, and that makes me go "oh this is seriously broken"
in the last iteration of this i found: - amarok being able to get music from jamendo - kontact / korganizer not showing appointments that span whole days
now what is more important? free music or a working calendar?
You seem to have misunderstood a few things.
Do you have any reason to think your problems are openSUSE specific? If not, there's no point in ranting about them here, instead you should file proper bug reports for your problems upstream, if they haven't already been reported.
And Amarok developers can't magically be reassigned to work on kdepim - they might not have the interest or the expertise. Just like you can't easily be reassigned to doing more constructive things than trolling on a mailing list. You do understand that most of these developers are not paid by anybody?
If you bothered to follow KDE4 development instead of obsessing about KDE3 you'd see that KDE4 has tons of nice features that KDE3 doesn't, and that KDE4 is continually improving at an amazing pace, even though you're not helping.
-- Adrian Schroeter SUSE Linux Products GmbH email: adrian@suse.de -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kde+help@opensuse.org
Am Mittwoch, 18. März 2009 01:40:31 schrieb Oliver:
I don't believe that you wrote what you wrote. If you mean, that the holy developer have to be holy and the producing of any software is just for playing around and have a good time, THAN DON'T SALE that stuff and play with it!
If Novell is pronouncing KDE 4 as a stable system ready for work, THAN I want exactly THAT for the money I paid for and not that kiddy-scripting- just-clicking-and-crashing-better-than-windows stuff!
Very concrete! What crashes, what scripting - or did you just want to list some buzzwords to make your point?
If you mean, that everybody who need to criticism something about KDE, have to develop or help, change your business!
That's exactly the point. There are different kinds of criticism and yours and the original poster's are not constructive and hence useless - as useless as feeding the trolls, which I hereby do nevertheless - damn!
If you are not able to develop a stable system, don't talk about features, stupid or not! And, if you mean KDE4 IS stable, sleep well or learn too develop!
After 15 years with SuSE, I'm really fed up with such an answer I read too often in the last few months escpecially about KDE4!
Trust me, those enjoying KDE4 and working with it every day are fed-up with useless comments and whining as yours. They prove you wrong with every task they complete and you make that dead easy because by exaggerating you only show that you lack real arguments and that what you say cannot be true in that extent.
Outside of your little world are enough user who give you the honor to use the software you produce. So open your ears and hear what they say. Without the user outside there is no need for developers! And there is also no need, that everybody who use openSource-Software have to help to develop it.
Just because those whining shout loudest it does not mean anything. I have not seen yet a group of developers that forked KDE3 and is actively working on it, so where are the many that KDE 4 does not listen/appeal to? Statistics tells me that if there are really that many users that think the same as you, there must be developers of that kind as well, taking charge of the KDE3 codebase. Maybe even a company that can live off the many KDE3 customers that won't switch. If not, then probably you are just wrong about your assumptions and just show your love for dead-ends and inflexibility.
Wake up and change your mind. The time is really over that Linux and every derivates is just for hacker and script-cracker. Answers like yours are one of the reason why Linux don't arrives more user than until now.
... >/dev/null 2>&1
Oh, hey - very mature and showing the attitude towards constructive discussions and how you really think about "open your ears and listen". In the end it comes down to: You lose some you win some. If you are right, KDE(4) will die, if not, KDE3 will. Any bookie around? Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kde+help@opensuse.org
I have to admit that I feel very much like Mathias and Oliver. Maybe the communication could be more polite, but I think they are basically right: We have a core problem in openSUSE that the build process for KDE 4 is to flaky. Features which work today are broken after the next factory build. So yes: I think this is NOT a KDE upstream problem, but our own fault of packaging. Factory is not usable for real, satisfactory work. Factory development should not break things which perfectly work, imo. At the same time, I feel very much unsettled about the path KDE4 goes. It is still miles away from enterprise desktop usage. It lacks both features and stabiliy: * printing is a joke. Compared to Windows, MacOS and Gnome, it is just downright broken. No one can tell, if it will ever improve again, since Nokia doesn't care. * PIM is lacking features, such as synchronizing with syncML and the like. It doesn't even have plugins for Google stuff, which would greatly enhance popularity. Again, noone seems to care -- and the bad syncml capabilities we have since KDE3. Take a look at Gnome/Evolution, then you know why it is the first choice for a corporate desktop. * File preview is still not on par with KDE3. Transparent graphics are horrible. Admittedly, that's a minor issue... * Soundsystem is flaky. * Hotplugging is flaky. Audio CDs lock up when they are damaged, there is no (or not yet) action related to them. * Multiscreen setups are not working for non-sophisticated users. * KDE4 is definitely slower than KDE3, for whatever reason. I have two Pentium III notebooks with less than 1GB RAM, and they work fine with KDE3 but are way too weak for the newer "smaller memory footprint" version. This might be due to graphics hardware and the shitty graphics driver situation under Linux, but for the user it boils down to youknowwhat... Many of the above things will see a solution, I am sure. But I really find they should have had more importance in the first place. Most of the above stuff should "just work" (tm), from the point of most users. It does not, and will not, not even in 4.3... Rotating plasmoids is not a replacement for the lack of core office productivity features. Gnome is attracting large portions of former hard core KDE3 users, that's a fact. Bashing those "poisonous users" may seem justified from the perspective of a volunteer developper from amarok and the like but it doesn't make the problem go away. KDE 4 is currently not an option for serious desktop usage. Period. What scares me, though, is the fact that it will still not be an option in 4.3 and thus 11.2. Intermediate version upgrades from factory are not an option, either, so that means, for openSUSE the first working KDE desktop is still about 1.5 yrs from now... We *need* better packaging, and we need stable, frequent and reliable KDE4 snapshots provided for the endusers' audience. If we don't, I see the KDE market share drop to 30% from once 90%. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kde+help@opensuse.org
On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 12:30, Daniel Mader
[SNIP]
At the same time, I feel very much unsettled about the path KDE4 goes. It is still miles away from enterprise desktop usage. It lacks both features and stabiliy: * printing is a joke. Compared to Windows, MacOS and Gnome, it is just downright broken. No one can tell, if it will ever improve again, since Nokia doesn't care. Them is very strong fighting words. It would be great to see the evidence that backs those words up.
* PIM is lacking features, such as synchronizing with syncML and the like. It doesn't even have plugins for Google stuff, which would greatly enhance popularity. Again, noone seems to care Again, I ask for evidence of those very strong words.
Gnome is attracting large portions of former hard core KDE3 users, that's a fact. Bashing those "poisonous users" may seem justified from the perspective of a volunteer developper from amarok and the like but it doesn't make the problem go away. KDE 4 is currently not an option for serious desktop usage. Period. What scares me, though, is the fact that it will still not be an option in 4.3 and thus 11.2. Intermediate version upgrades from factory are not an option, either, so that means, for openSUSE the first working KDE desktop is still about 1.5 yrs from now... I think I know where the problem lies. It lies not with the developers but the users. Hear/read me out. You must have heard the one about keeping up with the Joneses. That is exactly what is going on here. Users think KDE4 is a drop in replacement for _every_ part of KDE3 with added shiny bits. Well, that is not the case and we as users, need to stop thinking it is. We have been told, time and time again, that
[SNIP] things will eventually get there. It seems we refuse to believe the developers who tell us this. If we want to keep up with the Joneses, we have to be prepared for all the missteps along the way. KDE4 is not complete yet and still has a long way to go. It will get there, but it going to be long and bumpy ride for all the complainers.
We *need* better packaging, and we need stable, frequent and reliable KDE4 snapshots provided for the endusers' audience. If we don't, I see the KDE market share drop to 30% from once 90%. I do think you are going to get all three at once, you can get frequent or you can get stable and reliable. This is simply due to the fact that to get stable and reliable, only small changes can go into the code base, and those changes have to be fixes. What you will get are releases that implement functions that get stable over time. As for the KDE dropping, that may well happen, but I can assure you it will pick up again.
ne... -- Registered Linux User # 125653 (http://counter.li.org) Now accepting personal mail for GMail invites. Samuel Beckett - "Birth was the death of him." -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kde+help@opensuse.org
On Wednesday 18 of March 2009 01:40:31 Oliver wrote:
If Novell is pronouncing KDE 4 as a stable system ready for work, THAN I want exactly THAT for the money I paid for and not that kiddy-scripting- just-clicking-and-crashing-better-than-windows stuff!
You cannot get what you want for the money you paid, you can only get what you paid for. Since I doubt you actually paid for something that'd make you eligible for this kind of demands, since those come with better support channels than a mailing list, I assume you paid for the openSUSE box. In other words, if I'm not mistaken, you paid roughly for the box, media, printed manuals and a limited installation support. If you didn't get any of that, request a refund from wherever you got the product. If you want more, pay for it, do it yourself or wait calmly until somebody does it for you for free. That is how free software works.
Outside of your little world are enough user who give you the honor to use the software you produce. So open your ears and hear what they say. Without the user outside there is no need for developers!
You are seriously confused about the state of things. -- Lubos Lunak KDE developer -------------------------------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX, s.r.o. e-mail: l.lunak@suse.cz , l.lunak@kde.org Lihovarska 1060/12 tel: +420 284 028 972 190 00 Prague 9 fax: +420 284 028 951 Czech Republic http://www.suse.cz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kde+help@opensuse.org
On Wednesday 18 of March 2009 13:30:49 Daniel Mader wrote:
We have a core problem in openSUSE that the build process for KDE 4 is to flaky. Features which work today are broken after the next factory build. So yes: I think this is NOT a KDE upstream problem, but our own fault of packaging. Factory is not usable for real, satisfactory work. Factory development should not break things which perfectly work, imo.
It may be your opinion, but the reality disagrees (and, in case you haven't noticed, this reality is far from perfect). The only way not to break things is not to touch them.
Many of the above things will see a solution, I am sure. But I really find they should have had more importance in the first place. Most of the above stuff should "just work" (tm), from the point of most users. It does not, and will not, not even in 4.3... Rotating plasmoids is not a replacement for the lack of core office productivity features.
You again fail to understand how things work. A rotating plasmoid is a trivial work, since most of it is provided by the underlying technology in Qt. Also, a Plasma developer cannot magically become a soundsystem or printing developer overnight, or noticeably improve performance of KDE4 in the same time creating a rotating plasmoid took.
Bashing those "poisonous users" may seem justified from the perspective of a volunteer developper from amarok and the like but it doesn't make the problem go away.
Frankly, it actually does, in a way. It saves a huge amount of time to just ignore complains that are all the same the whole time and that won't change anything. Those developers do it in their spare time for fun, they have more than enough work, and hearing for over a year that 'XYZ sucks and you too!' does neither make it fun nor it helps with the work. The same way I will not spend any more time on this thread. It just wastes time and doesn't say anything new that hasn't been already discussed over and over.
KDE 4 is currently not an option for serious desktop usage. Period. What scares me, though, is the fact that it will still not be an option in 4.3 and thus 11.2.
That is what you say and there are others who disagree. Nobody is however forcing you and I'm sure you can figure out all the options you have to solve your problem.
We *need* better packaging,
I remember times when saying 'we need' meant 'and I will work on that', but I assume those times have long gone, haven't they? Or what exactly entitles you to say this and not just sound like somebody who complains and makes requests about something they get for free?
and we need stable, frequent and reliable KDE4 snapshots
Reality check says this is a contradiction. -- Lubos Lunak KDE developer -------------------------------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX, s.r.o. e-mail: l.lunak@suse.cz , l.lunak@kde.org Lihovarska 1060/12 tel: +420 284 028 972 190 00 Prague 9 fax: +420 284 028 951 Czech Republic http://www.suse.cz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kde+help@opensuse.org
Onsdag 18 marts 2009 13:30:49 skrev Daniel Mader:
KDE 4 is currently not an option for serious desktop usage. Period. What scares me, though, is the fact that it will still not be an option in 4.3 and thus 11.2. Intermediate version upgrades from factory are not an option, either, so that means, for openSUSE the first working KDE desktop is still about 1.5 yrs from now...
The fact remains that the only sensible options for non-programmers like us, are either: 1) report problems and vote for bugs that are important to you - in the correct place depending on the problem (bugs.kde.org, bugzilla.novell.com or the qt bugtracker), or; 2) shut up and use kde3, gnome, xfce, ms windows or Mac OS if you seriously believe either one is a better option short term or long term - all things considered. Unless of course either one of you guys represent a large SLE customer, maybe then you can throw some weight around - and get higher priority for specific bugs which happen to be critical for you. Besides saying KDE4 is unusable because you personally are hit by a few inconveniences, is far fetched - especially as you _are_ actually using KDE4. Already when 11.0 was released with 4.0 a survey showed a very large uptake of KDE4, and surely 4.2 is a heck of a lot better than 4.0 was - actually 4.2 and 4.0 are completely different planets. And KDE4 is only just beginning to gain momemtum - a lot of major distros only made KDE4 their default within the last few months. KDE 4.2 factory packages are already a rather nice experience albeit a bit rough from time to time as should be expected from factory - sure it still has bugs and some regressions compared to KDE3, that's life, it also has tons of improvements over KDE3. By November official SUSE-enhanced KDE 4.3.x packages will be much, much better still than the current factory packages. Have some patience and perspective. A lot has happened in the last 14 months, and with KDE4 gaining momentum even more could happen in the next 8 months. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kde+help@opensuse.org
On Wednesday 18 of March 2009 15:25:41 Martin Schlander wrote:
Onsdag 18 marts 2009 13:30:49 skrev Daniel Mader:
KDE 4 is currently not an option for serious desktop usage. Period. What scares me, though, is the fact that it will still not be an option in 4.3 and thus 11.2. Intermediate version upgrades from factory are not an option, either, so that means, for openSUSE the first working KDE desktop is still about 1.5 yrs from now...
The fact remains that the only sensible options for non-programmers like us, are either:
That is not correct, there are still many ways even people without programming skills can contribute to KDE/openSUSE - they can write documentation, translate, create artwork, create and update packages and similar. And even people who think they don't have the technical skills to do these can still contribute - they can help with e.g. handling bugreports (http://en.opensuse.org/Bugs:KDE/Screening), attending the KDE IRC meetings and helping with non-technical tasks (http://en.opensuse.org/KDE/Meetings) or whatever else turns up. All of these require only experience, which can be gained, certain level of intelligence, and, of course, the time and will to do it. Helping with any of these can help to reduce the workload of developers, who then can do more of the technical work that will make KDE better. For example, I've recently been spending a considerable amount of time just wading through the huge number of KDE bugreports at bugzilla.novell.com, time I could have otherwise spent e.g. improving code. But for people who just expect to get things for free without doing anything you are of course right. -- Lubos Lunak KDE developer -------------------------------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX, s.r.o. e-mail: l.lunak@suse.cz , l.lunak@kde.org Lihovarska 1060/12 tel: +420 284 028 972 190 00 Prague 9 fax: +420 284 028 951 Czech Republic http://www.suse.cz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kde+help@opensuse.org
Hi, Am Mittwoch, 18. März 2009 schrieb Lubos Lunak:
You cannot get what you want for the money you paid, you can only get what you paid for. Since I doubt you actually paid for something that'd make you eligible for this kind of demands, since those come with better support channels than a mailing list, I assume you paid for the openSUSE box. In other words, if I'm not mistaken, you paid roughly for the box, media, printed manuals and a limited installation support. If you didn't get any of that, request a refund from wherever you got the product. If you want more, pay for it, do it yourself or wait calmly until somebody does it for you for free. That is how free software works.
Maybe you didn't read all I wrote. After 15 years with any of SuSE-Linux- Distributions they had, I think I know what I'm doing, where to get help from and how to help myself or others. KDE4 was offered as stable, doesn't it? Didn't everybody told you then, never pronounce a KDE x.0-System other than beta? Like your footer shows us, it seems like you will get paid for your work, don't you? And with you, there are enough other developer whome get paid for developing KDE, so please. You will have a roadmap for developing and sometimes, the roadmap need a rebuild.
Outside of your little world are enough user who give you the honor to use the software you produce. So open your ears and hear what they say. Without the user outside there is no need for developers!
You are seriously confused about the state of things.
If you get money for producing something just for playing around, you are right. No. I think some of you are too far away from the base. It is one thing, that KDE4 is not stable enough to be as this pronounced from Novell. But it is really another thing to blame on user to be quit or help, if they have some problems with the software. If software is buggy enough that systems crashes too much or the needful things like kmail, pim or whatever are not stable enough or useable, what do you think user will do? You can ask Novell how this works because they have experiences with that. The fault was, to start with the actual SuSE-Distro with KDE4. Since that, you have to use the next and the next and the next KDE-Update in hope, it will be better but it doesn't. There is no need for a second desktop-system which just will be nice-klicked-very-colored-funny-stuff and to forget to make the produceable and needful utilities stable. Hear what the user told you, work with them and accept, that not everybody can help you. And stop developing new features before the system isn't stable enough. Not every bug can be a feature. So. This is not a thread someone needs.
-- Lubos Lunak KDE developer -------------------------------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX, s.r.o. e-mail: l.lunak@suse.cz , l.lunak@kde.org Lihovarska 1060/12 tel: +420 284 028 972 190 00 Prague 9 fax: +420 284 028 951 Czech Republic http://www.suse.cz
-- gruß Oliver -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kde+help@opensuse.org
[SNIP]
At the same time, I feel very much unsettled about the path KDE4 goes. It is still miles away from enterprise desktop usage. It lacks both features and stabiliy: * printing is a joke. Compared to Windows, MacOS and Gnome, it is just downright broken. No one can tell, if it will ever improve again, since Nokia doesn't care.
Them is very strong fighting words. It would be great to see the evidence that backs those words up.
I use the above in real world office work. Apparently, you don't.
* PIM is lacking features, such as synchronizing with syncML and the like. It doesn't even have plugins for Google stuff, which would greatly enhance popularity. Again, noone seems to care
Again, I ask for evidence of those very strong words.
Dito. Why has this become so popular among KDE people: if someone complains, then first asking for evidence, even for stuff which is obviously broken, and if they get the problem served on silver dishes, the next step is to tell people to do it them selves. That's the quickest way to diminish a community. People are not willing to help if they feel things are going the wrong way.
[SNIP]
Gnome is attracting large portions of former hard core KDE3 users, that's a fact. Bashing those "poisonous users" may seem justified from the perspective of a volunteer developper from amarok and the like but it doesn't make the problem go away. KDE 4 is currently not an option for serious desktop usage. Period. What scares me, though, is the fact that it will still not be an option in 4.3 and thus 11.2. Intermediate version upgrades from factory are not an option, either, so that means, for openSUSE the first working KDE desktop is still about 1.5 yrs from now...
I think I know where the problem lies. It lies not with the developers but the users.
This is ridicolous beyond any measure. As a matter of fact KDE4 is not yet a desktop environment on par with its competitors. But of course, this is the users' fault because in 2009 and version 4.3 they expect better. Which is wrong. Right -_-
I do think you are going to get all three at once, you can get frequent or you can get stable and reliable. This is simply due to the fact that to get stable and reliable, only small changes can go into the code base, and those changes have to be fixes. What you will get are releases that implement functions that get stable over time. As for the KDE dropping, that may well happen, but I can assure you it will pick up again.
The latter I really hope, yeah. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kde+help@opensuse.org
Onsdag 18 marts 2009 16:29:19 skrev Oliver:
Like your footer shows us, it seems like you will get paid for your work, don't you? And with you, there are enough other developer whome get paid for developing KDE, so please.
You should probably know that Lubos is among the top people fixing the most KDE bugs every god damn week. Your idea that "enough" people are paid to work on KDE, but they just don't do their job, is plain ridiculous. Especially since Novell just fired 25% of the KDE team. Leaving three people. And since most employed KDE developers invest a lot of passion and spare time in this thing too. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kde+help@opensuse.org
On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 9:24 PM, Martin Schlander
Onsdag 18 marts 2009 16:29:19 skrev Oliver:
Like your footer shows us, it seems like you will get paid for your work, don't you? And with you, there are enough other developer whome get paid for developing KDE, so please.
You should probably know that Lubos is among the top people fixing the most KDE bugs every god damn week.
Your idea that "enough" people are paid to work on KDE, but they just don't do their job, is plain ridiculous. Especially since Novell just fired 25% of the KDE team. Leaving three people. And since most employed KDE developers invest a lot of passion and spare time in this thing too. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kde+help@opensuse.org
Just chiming here with an observation regarding Opensuse and KDE4. Initially...I really disliked KDE4 and voiced my concern at it vehemently to my fellow co-workers, and even defected to GNOME for a few days. But that was then...with KDE 4.2.1, I'm pleased to be back and have begun to like KDE4 immensely. Now, with regards to Opensuse and KDE4...I'm basically a Mandriva user and occasionally an Opensuse one too. I greatly respect the work that the KDE team has put out for KDE4. That said, I find the quality of KDE4 on Opensuse lacking a fair bit compared to Mandriva. Just the other day I installed Opensuse 11.0 and upgraded my system to 4.2.1 with the default repos. It sure did upgrade properly, but I found several things broken. Primarily, the KDM and Ksplash themes which would only adjust to 1024x800 on my 1280x800 laptop, misaligned widgets, sluggish behavior of plasma/qt etc. I did manage to fix majority of them. Switch over to Mandriva and the upgrade was really smooth...didn't see the issues earlier with Opensuse. I must say that KDE4 is rock solid in Mandriva and unfortunately not so in Opensuse. I don't mean this to be bad criticism of Opensuse...but an observation from a user who really wants a top notch Opensuse out there...as any work done by Opensuse on KDE4 does trickle down to Mandriva, which is my base distro. My two cents...thats all :) -Anshul -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kde+help@opensuse.org
On Tuesday 17 March 2009 12:27:13 pm Mathias Homann wrote:
now what is more important? free music or a working calendar?
For you calendar, but I bet that Amarok team is bigger and get more feedback then Korganizer team. Don't forget that KDE is not company where manager will reassign resources. They all work on stuff they like. We users have a choice, either go proprietary and get software that was developed as assignment [1], or be patient and get software that was developed with passion. [1] Assignment doesn't sound like something that most people would like, nor it makes sure that best people will be assigned to the task. The best, manager can do is to assign available developers to tasks they are familiar with, and hope that everything will come out fine. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kde+help@opensuse.org
On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 15:42, Daniel Mader
[SNIP]
At the same time, I feel very much unsettled about the path KDE4 goes. It is still miles away from enterprise desktop usage. It lacks both features and stabiliy: * printing is a joke. Compared to Windows, MacOS and Gnome, it is just downright broken. No one can tell, if it will ever improve again, since Nokia doesn't care.
Them is very strong fighting words. It would be great to see the evidence that backs those words up.
I use the above in real world office work. Apparently, you don't.
I was refering to the statement about Nokia not caring. But yes, I do use Windows and Linux to pay the bills. My prefered desktop is KDE and has been since 1.0 beta 3.
* PIM is lacking features, such as synchronizing with syncML and the like. It doesn't even have plugins for Google stuff, which would greatly enhance popularity. Again, noone seems to care
Again, I ask for evidence of those very strong words.
Dito. Again, I was refering to you writing that 'noone seems to care'. When is the evidence of that?
Why has this become so popular among KDE people: if someone complains, then first asking for evidence, even for stuff which is obviously broken, and if they get the problem served on silver dishes, the next step is to tell people to do it them selves. That's the quickest way to diminish a community. People are not willing to help if they feel things are going the wrong way. I cannot speak for 'KDE people', I am a user, but I think I can say this. There are not as many people working on KDE as a paying job as people think. Even those that do work on KDE as part of their paying job do have other responsibilities. For those that do it in their spare time, that time is has to be shared with other things as well. I know this might sound like I am making excuses, but as someone who codes in my dayjob, I can tell you that when I get home, the last thing I want to do is code some more most days. And no, I really do not have a whole to do.
[SNIP]
Gnome is attracting large portions of former hard core KDE3 users, that's a fact. Bashing those "poisonous users" may seem justified from the perspective of a volunteer developper from amarok and the like but it doesn't make the problem go away. KDE 4 is currently not an option for serious desktop usage. Period. What scares me, though, is the fact that it will still not be an option in 4.3 and thus 11.2. Intermediate version upgrades from factory are not an option, either, so that means, for openSUSE the first working KDE desktop is still about 1.5 yrs from now...
I think I know where the problem lies. It lies not with the developers but the users.
This is ridicolous beyond any measure. As a matter of fact KDE4 is not yet a desktop environment on par with its competitors. But of course, this is the users' fault because in 2009 and version 4.3 they expect better. Which is wrong. Right -_- D00d, my point was that the users expactations are too high! Users expect perfection from KDE devs. That is not going to happen overnite.
I do think you are going to get all three at once, you can get frequent or you can get stable and reliable. This is simply due to the fact that to get stable and reliable, only small changes can go into the code base, and those changes have to be fixes. What you will get are releases that implement functions that get stable over time. As for the KDE dropping, that may well happen, but I can assure you it will pick up again.
The latter I really hope, yeah. You can bank on that, pun intended.
ne... -- Registered Linux User # 125653 (http://counter.li.org) Now accepting personal mail for GMail invites. Samuel Beckett - "Birth was the death of him." -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kde+help@opensuse.org
On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 15:54, Martin Schlander
Onsdag 18 marts 2009 16:29:19 skrev Oliver:
Like your footer shows us, it seems like you will get paid for your work, don't you? And with you, there are enough other developer whome get paid for developing KDE, so please.
You should probably know that Lubos is among the top people fixing the most KDE bugs every god damn week.
Your idea that "enough" people are paid to work on KDE, but they just don't do their job, is plain ridiculous. Especially since Novell just fired 25% of the KDE team. Leaving three people. And since most employed KDE developers invest a lot of passion and spare time in this thing too. Amen, bro, amen! Tell it like it really is so people can really see what is going on.
ne... -- Registered Linux User # 125653 (http://counter.li.org) Now accepting personal mail for GMail invites. Rita Rudner - "Before I met my husband, I'd never fallen in love. I'd stepped in it a few times." -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kde+help@opensuse.org
Onsdag 18 marts 2009 17:06:29 skrev Anshul Jain:
That said, I find the quality of KDE4 on Opensuse lacking a fair bit compared to Mandriva. Just the other day I installed Opensuse 11.0 and upgraded my system to 4.2.1 with the default repos.
Mandriva will do an official release with KDE 4.2.x very shortly. For openSUSE the 4.2 packages are pre-alpha stuff, which will eventually turn into an official release of 4.3 in November with openSUSE 11.2, so it's an unfair comparison. But best of luck to you anyway, I hope you buy the Mandriva Powerpack and thus help support a few paid KDE developers ;-) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kde+help@opensuse.org
On Wednesday 18 March 2009 16:29:19 Oliver wrote:
Hi,
Am Mittwoch, 18. März 2009 schrieb Lubos Lunak:
You cannot get what you want for the money you paid, you can only get what you paid for. Since I doubt you actually paid for something that'd make you eligible for this kind of demands, since those come with better support channels than a mailing list, I assume you paid for the openSUSE box. In other words, if I'm not mistaken, you paid roughly for the box, media, printed manuals and a limited installation support. If you didn't get any of that, request a refund from wherever you got the product. If you want more, pay for it, do it yourself or wait calmly until somebody does it for you for free. That is how free software works.
Maybe you didn't read all I wrote. After 15 years with any of SuSE-Linux- Distributions they had, I think I know what I'm doing, where to get help from and how to help myself or others. KDE4 was offered as stable, doesn't it? Didn't everybody told you then, never pronounce a KDE x.0-System other than beta?
Like your footer shows us, it seems like you will get paid for your work, don't you? And with you, there are enough other developer whome get paid for developing KDE, so please. You will have a roadmap for developing and sometimes, the roadmap need a rebuild.
Have you paid him for his job??? But this whole money discussion is nothing that gets things forward...
Outside of your little world are enough user who give you the honor to use the software you produce. So open your ears and hear what they say. Without the user outside there is no need for developers!
You are seriously confused about the state of things.
If you get money for producing something just for playing around, you are right.
No. I think some of you are too far away from the base. It is one thing, that KDE4 is not stable enough to be as this pronounced from Novell. But it is really another thing to blame on user to be quit or help, if they have some problems with the software.
If software is buggy enough that systems crashes too much or the needful things like kmail, pim or whatever are not stable enough or useable, what do you think user will do? You can ask Novell how this works because they have experiences with that.
The fault was, to start with the actual SuSE-Distro with KDE4. Since that, you have to use the next and the next and the next KDE-Update in hope, it will be better but it doesn't. There is no need for a second desktop-system which just will be nice-klicked-very-colored-funny-stuff and to forget to make the produceable and needful utilities stable.
Hear what the user told you, work with them and accept, that not everybody can help you. And stop developing new features before the system isn't stable enough.
Not every bug can be a feature.
So. This is not a thread someone needs.
I use KDE 4 since version 4.0 on openSUSE and since then it works very well for me. It crashed not more often than KDE 3 (means: very, very seldom), which I have never missed since using KDE 4. Currently KDE 4.2.1 runs on my main machine and I a m really more than only pleased with it. Sure, in the early days one has to use some KDE 3 apps on KDE 4, like kdepim, amarok and digikam, bus that time is gone, but where was the problem with that? Many people are using Firefox because they like it, which is also not a native KDE app. Nobody keeps you away from using KDE 3 on openSUSE. 11.1 will be supported until the End of 2010... KDE 4 is really more than only "nice-klicked-very-colored-funny-stuff". I work every day with KDE 4 and I know other people, which do it also. And they all are pleased. Sometimes this ever recurring discussion reminds on all the windows crowd, that blame all the time about Vista, which they have downloaded via BitTorrent. KDE 4 is the future that has already started. And this future IS bright. So, do not waste your and the time of others for such discussions... I waste my time also with this, you think? No, I do not. ;-) Best greetings Buschmann ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- openSUSE Member - de.opensuse.org Sys-Op http://en.opensuse.org/User:Buschmann23 http://en.opensuse.org/How_to_Participate http://en.opensuse.org/Geeko_wants_you!
In <200903181642.42446.danielstefanmader@web.de>, Daniel Mader wrote:
At the same time, I feel very much unsettled about the path KDE4 goes. It is still miles away from enterprise desktop usage. It lacks both features and stabiliy: * printing is a joke. Compared to Windows, MacOS and Gnome, it is just downright broken.
Them is very strong fighting words. It would be great to see the evidence that backs those words up.
I use the above in real world office work. Apparently, you don't.
Even if he doesn't *I* do. I use KDE 4.2.1 on openSUSE 11.1 every day on my laptop at work. I print to network printers over my WPA-PSK connection. I suspend, hibernate, and come back. I use email, OO.org, IM, calendering, etc. Yes, I'm a developer. That doesn't mean I've got time to fight with my OS; I have real work to do for clients. I use Linux every day to do real work. I respectfully disagree with you, Daniel Mader.
* PIM is lacking features, such as synchronizing with syncML and the like. It doesn't even have plugins for Google stuff, which would greatly enhance popularity. Again, noone seems to care
Again, I ask for evidence of those very strong words.
Dito.
Same thing. I respectfully disagree with you. Yes, there are problems with KDE 4.2.1, but I actually find it more useful than KDE 3.5.10. I still don't think oS should have even shipped KDE 4.0 and KDE 4.1 to users, much less made KDE 4.1 the default desktop. To the oS developers on the list: Thank you for all the work you do to make oS a great distribution. Please ignore the users that don't want to be part of the solution, just don't confuse them with the users that have legitimate problems and want to help but just don't know how to fix their bug. Good luck during the development of 11.2, may it be the best oS ever. -- Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. ,= ,-_-. =. bss@iguanasuicide.net ((_/)o o(\_)) ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy `-'(. .)`-' http://iguanasuicide.net/ \_/
On Wednesday 18 March 2009 10:25:41 am Martin Schlander wrote: <snip a bunch>..............(so I'm not top-posting) First of all this is not a rant and is not directed at you Martin. I want KDE4 to work and be better than KDE3. I just get tired of when a user complains about something, the KDE4 people accuse them of ranting, not contributing, being negative for the sake of negativity, etc. They may just have a point you know. Why must they be "jumped" on and scolded like they were unappreciative children?
Besides saying KDE4 is unusable because you personally are hit by a few inconveniences, is far fetched - especially as you _are_ actually using KDE4. Already when 11.0 was released with 4.0 a survey showed a very large uptake of KDE4,
And that was probably because many people, like me, wanted to see what it was all about and hoping for the best. I tried 11.0 with 4.0 and was so dissapointed I blew it away
and surely 4.2 is a heck of a lot better than 4.0 was -
Yes, I am now testing 11.1 with 4.2 and it is dramatically and decidedly much better. (11.1 itself still has many problems though) ...<snip more>......
KDE 4.2 factory packages are already a rather nice experience albeit a bit rough from time to time as should be expected from factory - sure it still has bugs and some regressions compared to KDE3, that's life,
Yes it certainly does. and that is the point. "that's life" ? Hmmmm..Not so sure about that. Wasn't by chance or fate that is for sure.
it also has tons of improvements over KDE3.
Welllll... Now here we go! That is what all of the KDE4 fans point out. I don't think that is a true statement. I have yet to see them. Wish somebody would enumerate them or point them out to me.....Please ???....
By November official SUSE-enhanced KDE 4.3.x packages will be much, much better still than the current factory packages.
We ALL hope that. There are still so many small niggling things. I just go with my weekly upgrades and hope that they dissapear.
Have some patience and perspective. A lot has happened in the last 14 months, and with KDE4 gaining momentum even more could happen in the next 8 months.
I have lots of patience. Just keep waiting and watching. I don't worry about it though because I give 11.1 with 4.2 a couple of hours everynight to see what I can learn and/or fix/configure it to work the way I want it to. After that I go back to my rock solid 10.3 with 3.5-10 to do what I really want to do the way I want to do it. Bob S -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kde+help@opensuse.org
Hi all, it seems that every discussion about the state of KDE4.x in opensuse always ends in a flamewar. And this is not the fault only of some people which are complaining about the stability of KDE 4.x, i have to blame also the other site. Always in the last time if someone sends a question or a complain or a call for help regarding KDE 4.x in any of the opensuse-lists, he probably will get the first five answers from some fanboys with no helpful message, just with a qestion how he could dare to ask somewhat. So my "problem" isnt that KDE4 isnt ready yet in some parts, which are less or more important for some users, i have a problem how the whole KDE4-thing is handled in this lists and also from the officials by novell or opensuse or kde. It is a fact, that at least novell and i think also the kde-officials had stated, that KDE4.1.x is stable, and a fully featured replacement for KDE3.5.x. Just to kick KDE 3.x out of the list of standard-desktop-environments is such a statement. I believe that these statements are just marketing-phrases, but its also a fact, that some people still are paying for opensuse-boxes, and they have these phrases printed at their boxes. On the other side its true, that KDE4 is developing in a fast way and maybe it will sometimes in a less or more near future a fully featured replacement for KDE3.5.x, but thats not now. And it doesnt help, when people with knowledge are only pissed off by some users which are ranting, but it doesnt help also when these people with knowledge just are flaming back, even to "friendly" users, even to postings which are sent to this and other lists with the wish for a serious, fair and sensefull discussion in mind. regards, Jens -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kde+help@opensuse.org
Torsdag 19 marts 2009 04:29:32 skrev Bob S:
On Wednesday 18 March 2009 10:25:41 am Martin Schlander wrote: First of all this is not a rant and is not directed at you Martin. I want KDE4 to work and be better than KDE3. I just get tired of when a user complains about something, the KDE4 people accuse them of ranting, not contributing, being negative for the sake of negativity, etc. They may just have a point you know. Why must they be "jumped" on and scolded like they were unappreciative children?
My take on that, is that if they weren't unappreciative children, they'd file bug reports and vote for bugs in the proper places with detailed information about the specific problems, instead of ranting on mailing lists or blogs or elsewhere which does no good for anybody.
it also has tons of improvements over KDE3.
Welllll... Now here we go! That is what all of the KDE4 fans point out. I don't think that is a true statement. I have yet to see them. Wish somebody would enumerate them or point them out to me.....Please ???....
I'm afraid it's been tried before. But this subset of users we're talking about are blind to new functionality, all they want is something that works and looks exactly like their KDE3 used to do - everything else is instantly discarded as unimportant. But just for sport I can name some examples... Okular kicks kpdf ass in lots of ways for example by supporting pdf forms and tons of different document formats. KWin effects can increase usability and productivity regardless how often it's discarded as "just eyecandy". The same can be said for plasma and plasmoids btw. It may still be a bit immature, but it's a heck of a lot better than superkaramba ever was. And with activities and folderview etc. it's already becoming flexible in many ways that kdesktop never was. Marble, a completely new application which doesn't even have a kde3 equivalent and supports openstreetmap view and lots of nice things. KMail just got support for tabs and neat aggregation modes in 4.2. Krunner does a ton things that the old run command thingy didn't do. KGet, Gwenview, KTorrrent... You could go on, pretty much any KDE4 component has plenty features that didn't exist in the KDE3 counterpart. On top of that a lot of exciting work has been and is going on behind the scenes with solid, phonon, akonadi, nepomuk etc. which isn't quite obvious to users yet, but will rock their world soon enough. And as Mark Shuttleworth famously said: "Pretty is a feature". Certain people are busily trying to paint a picture of an exodus of KDE3 users, but they're forgetting that there's a lot of migration going the other way - a lot GNOME users and others are attracted to KDE by the Oxygen prettyness and the simplicity and usability of Dolphin, Systemsettings or by the high level of innovation which isn't found in GNOME. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kde+help@opensuse.org
Am Donnerstag, 19. März 2009 09:43:41 schrieb Jens Nixdorf:
it seems that every discussion about the state of KDE4.x in opensuse always ends in a flamewar. And this is not the fault only of some people which are complaining about the stability of KDE 4.x, i have to blame also the other site. Always in the last time if someone sends a question or a complain or a call for help regarding KDE 4.x in any of the opensuse-lists, he probably will get the first five answers from some fanboys with no helpful message, just with a qestion how he could dare to ask somewhat.
Pick the question of mail that started this discussion and should have got a sensible answer: "now what is more important? free music or a working calendar?" Oh, there was another one in the subject: "what's the point with KDE 4..." Why did he not just ask something like: How can I make kontact / korganizer show appointments that span whole days? If you read the whole mail, it becomes obvious, he did not want an answer to that question but just rant. So what do you expect? Further your "Always" is most certainly wrong since only a single helping answer in the archives would be enough. I bet there are more. So why did you use "always", is that the kind of not exaggerating that helps a constructive discussion? All people ask for is to not exaggerate and keep reality in mind when talking about KDE. That includes amongst other things that resource-wise it is simply impossible for openSUSE to officially support KDE3 and KDE4 at the same time any longer. KDE4 is ready for work in general, as many that use it on a daily basis prove. There are some cases that KDE4 still lacks some bits KDE3 offers, yet as this is true the other way around as well, it is not an argument for or against any of those version. KDE4 is the future and KDE3 a dead-end, the reasons have been mediated more than once. The dead-end still exists and if I am not mistaken SLEx will still support it for some more years. If people want to stay in that dead-end, fair enough, yet it won't move forward and die in the end. Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kde+help@opensuse.org
Am Donnerstag 19 März 2009 schrieb Martin Schlander:
it also has tons of improvements over KDE3.
Welllll... Now here we go! That is what all of the KDE4 fans point out. I don't think that is a true statement. I have yet to see them. Wish somebody would enumerate them or point them out to me.....Please ???....
I'm afraid it's been tried before. But this subset of users we're talking about are blind to new functionality,
I'm not going to explore for "new functionality" while i'm still trying to find ways to do what i do on a regular basis.
all they want is something that works
and what is wrong with wanting something that works the way you're used to?
and looks exactly like their KDE3 used to do -
never said that.
everything else is instantly discarded as unimportant.
never said that either.
But just for sport I can name some examples...
Okular kicks kpdf ass in lots of ways for example by supporting pdf forms and tons of different document formats.
and how often did I have to handle a pdf file with forms? not a single time so far. hence, i could not care less for okular improvements FOR MY PERSONAL USAGE.
KWin effects can increase usability and productivity regardless how often it's discarded as "just eyecandy".
eyecandy that can increase usability and productivity is just eyecandy with bells on.
The same can be said for plasma and plasmoids btw. It may still be a bit immature, but it's a heck of a lot better than superkaramba ever was. And with activities and folderview etc. it's already becoming flexible in many ways that kdesktop never was.
superkaramba does not crash as often as plasma. hell, just an hour ago plasma crashed on me when i was just trying to move a plasmoid on the dock.
Marble, a completely new application which doesn't even have a kde3 equivalent and supports openstreetmap view and lots of nice things.
... looks like google earth to me, just without all the detail.
KMail just got support for tabs and neat aggregation modes in 4.2.
I didnt get far enough into kmail to find that, because it keeps crashing.
Krunner does a ton things that the old run command thingy didn't do.
nice.
KGet, Gwenview, KTorrrent... You could go on, pretty much any KDE4 component has plenty features that didn't exist in the KDE3 counterpart.
does not mean a thing when the features dont work reliably, or older more basic features go missing. -- gpg key fingerprint: 5F64 4C92 9B77 DE37 D184 C5F9 B013 44E7 27BD 763C -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kde+help@opensuse.org
Am Donnerstag, 19. März 2009 11:08:14 schrieb Mathias Homann:
Okular kicks kpdf ass in lots of ways for example by supporting pdf forms and tons of different document formats.
and how often did I have to handle a pdf file with forms? not a single time so far. hence, i could not care less for okular improvements FOR MY PERSONAL USAGE.
And since you do not care about other's usage, why should anyone care about your personal usage? Again, instead of either just skipping it, since it is not relevant for you, you use capital letters and expressions like "I could not care less", how does that show any positive attitude towards a constructive discussion? Just because it is not important for you, it is not a valid improvement? Nice attitude! Or did you only want to stress that while you are happy with KDE3 you still feel the need to complain about KDE4? Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kde+help@opensuse.org
On Thursday 19 March 2009 12:08:14 am Mathias Homann wrote:
Am Donnerstag 19 März 2009 schrieb Martin Schlander:
it also has tons of improvements over KDE3.
Welllll... Now here we go! That is what all of the KDE4 fans point out. I don't think that is a true statement. I have yet to see them. Wish somebody would enumerate them or point them out to me.....Please ???....
I'm afraid it's been tried before. But this subset of users we're talking about are blind to new functionality,
I'm not going to explore for "new functionality" while i'm still trying to find ways to do what i do on a regular basis.
all they want is something that works
and what is wrong with wanting something that works the way you're used to?
and looks exactly like their KDE3 used to do -
never said that.
everything else is instantly discarded as unimportant.
never said that either.
But just for sport I can name some examples...
Okular kicks kpdf ass in lots of ways for example by supporting pdf forms and tons of different document formats.
and how often did I have to handle a pdf file with forms? not a single time so far. hence, i could not care less for okular improvements FOR MY PERSONAL USAGE.
KWin effects can increase usability and productivity regardless how often it's discarded as "just eyecandy".
eyecandy that can increase usability and productivity is just eyecandy with bells on.
The same can be said for plasma and plasmoids btw. It may still be a bit immature, but it's a heck of a lot better than superkaramba ever was. And with activities and folderview etc. it's already becoming flexible in many ways that kdesktop never was.
superkaramba does not crash as often as plasma. hell, just an hour ago plasma crashed on me when i was just trying to move a plasmoid on the dock.
Marble, a completely new application which doesn't even have a kde3 equivalent and supports openstreetmap view and lots of nice things.
... looks like google earth to me, just without all the detail.
KMail just got support for tabs and neat aggregation modes in 4.2.
I didnt get far enough into kmail to find that, because it keeps crashing.
Krunner does a ton things that the old run command thingy didn't do.
nice.
KGet, Gwenview, KTorrrent... You could go on, pretty much any KDE4 component has plenty features that didn't exist in the KDE3 counterpart.
does not mean a thing when the features dont work reliably, or older more basic features go missing.
-- gpg key fingerprint: 5F64 4C92 9B77 DE37 D184 C5F9 B013 44E7 27BD 763C
To all defenders of kde4 and the way it was marketed: there are just too many of us who are waiting for kde5, perhaps even higher!!! until then it's 3.5, gnome, xfce etc. even windows does not arbitrarily break oodles of perfectly good apps just to introduce new features in the scale kde4 has!!!! In the very next thread there is a complaint that even font scaling has been hidden from the visually impaired, with a possible workaround thru the setup of a related app!!!!! stuff like that is simply dum and it is unfortunate that so much of it is still being discovered. But, if someone is to be blamed, it should be the marketeers. it is them who took 4.0 from the good guys, pronounced it good and hid kde3.5 under "other" in the 11.1 install disk! they have done a great disservice to the linucs community, a great service to microsoft.... as inquiring minds would ask.... could that be deliberate? did they receive a bonus? has novel accepted any bailout money? do we have a mini aig case here? :)))) d. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kde+help@opensuse.org
Am Donnerstag 19 März 2009 schrieb Sven Burmeister:
Just because it is not important for you, it is not a valid improvement?
i did not say that. what i said that FOR ME it is not a valid improvement.
Nice attitude!
yours is better?
Or did you only want to stress that while you are happy with KDE3 you still feel the need to complain about KDE4?
that actually comes pretty close... my points are (from my PERSONAL view, mind you): - KDE 3.5.9 is very stable - KDE 4.2.1 is way less stable, to the point that it is not ripe yet to be advertised as a replacement for KDE 3.5 - all the shiny new features in KDE 4 don't get me too excited because they don't exactly offer me replacements for KDE3 features that aren't there anymore. I don't know what you do with your computer, but i use mine to get things accomplished, and having to search high&low for a new way to do old things just gets in the way... to a degree where all ne new shine&luster from plasma et al simply annoys me. -- gpg key fingerprint: 5F64 4C92 9B77 DE37 D184 C5F9 B013 44E7 27BD 763C -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kde+help@opensuse.org
Am Donnerstag, 19. März 2009 11:43:12 schrieb kanenas@hawaii.rr.com:
But, if someone is to be blamed, it should be the marketeers. it is them who took 4.0 from the good guys, pronounced it good and hid kde3.5 under "other" in the 11.1 install disk! they have done a great disservice to the linucs community, a great service to microsoft....
This takes exaggeration a step further, now we are where opensuse@ was already a few months ago. And regarding the 4.0 in 11.1, check again and you will notice that your ignorance just makes you and your rants look silly. Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kde+help@opensuse.org
Am Donnerstag, 19. März 2009 11:49:05 schrieb Mathias Homann:
Am Donnerstag 19 März 2009 schrieb Sven Burmeister:
Just because it is not important for you, it is not a valid improvement?
i did not say that. what i said that FOR ME it is not a valid improvement.
Nice attitude!
yours is better?
Since I do not exaggerate and do not shout at others - well...
Or did you only want to stress that while you are happy with KDE3 you still feel the need to complain about KDE4?
that actually comes pretty close...
Thanks for confirming.
I don't know what you do with your computer, but i use mine to get things accomplished, and having to search high&low for a new way to do old things just gets in the way... to a degree where all ne new shine&luster from plasma et al simply annoys me.
I play kpatience all day since everything else crashes all the time, no emails, no wordprocessing etc. Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kde+help@opensuse.org
On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 10:56, Sven Burmeister
I play kpatience all day since everything else crashes all the time, no emails, no wordprocessing etc. U do that 2!!! lol, so do I when I'm home. That kpatience is really addictive!!!
But on a more serious note, I have to say that this is a losing battle you're fighting. Minds have already been made and flexibility went out the window a long time ago. Sad, really, when you think of all the good work and effort that has been put into satisfying everyone. Still those of us that use KDE4 and know that the bugs are being worked on and know that it is not feature complete as yet will welcome the bug fixes and features as they are added. The reality is that neither Rome nor KDE4 will be built/coded in a day. ne... -- Registered Linux User # 125653 (http://counter.li.org) Now accepting personal mail for GMail invites. Samuel Beckett - "Birth was the death of him." -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kde+help@opensuse.org
Am Donnerstag 19 März 2009 schrieb ne...:
But on a more serious note, I have to say that this is a losing battle you're fighting. Minds have already been made and flexibility went out the window a long time ago. Sad, really, when you think of all the good work and effort that has been put into satisfying everyone. Still those of us that use KDE4 and know that the bugs are being worked on and know that it is not feature complete as yet will welcome the bug fixes and features as they are added. The reality is that neither Rome nor KDE4 will be built/coded in a day.
that is actually my point too... It's perfectly ok for a project as big as KDE to be "not quite finished", or buggy to some degree, or lacking features. the only thing that i actually have gripes with is how KDE4 is being marketed by whats said on the box of opensuse 11.1 as being THE replacement for kde 3.5 which in my opinion it isnt (yet). -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kde+help@opensuse.org
Sven Burmeister schrieb:
Pick the question of mail that started this discussion and should have got a sensible answer:
I was answering in this thread because it developes in a discussion about KDE and the handling of it and the behaviour of some people which are somehow connected to this topic. But in my posting i was referring to the KDE-issue generally, not to the threadstarter-posting specifically. And if i read ahead in your answer to my posting, it seems that youre answering just confirms my statements.
Further your "Always" is most certainly wrong since only a single helping answer in the archives would be enough. I bet there are more. So why did you use "always", is that the kind of not exaggerating that helps a constructive discussion?
This question i could give straight back. Do you think that your answering style is right adjusted corresponding to the text of the posting you have answered to, or ist it affected by your mood, maybe to much? Or are you just nitpicking? Do you really expect that i replace my "always" with an exact statistic how much good and bad answers are giving to how many good or bad questions?
KDE4 is the future and KDE3 a dead-end, the reasons have been mediated more than once. The dead-end still exists and if I am not mistaken SLEx will still support it for some more years. If people want to stay in that dead-end, fair enough, yet it won't move forward and die in the end.
This wasnt denied by me, in no word in my last posting. But while we are just at it: I think, that most people didnt want to stay in that dead-end, but they also didnt want to hear "always" how good KDE4 is, and if they then stumble across some glitches in it and sending some of the common "but this was working fine in KDE3"-Mails to the list, they shouldnt be overwhelmed with a flamewar. regards, Jens -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kde+help@opensuse.org
Am Donnerstag, 19. März 2009 12:37:53 schrieb Jens Nixdorf:
Sven Burmeister schrieb:
Pick the question of mail that started this discussion and should have got a sensible answer:
I was answering in this thread because it developes in a discussion about KDE and the handling of it and the behaviour of some people which are somehow connected to this topic. But in my posting i was referring to the KDE-issue generally, not to the threadstarter-posting specifically.
"Always" means "always", if you do not want people to understand it that way, please pick another word and do not blame others for reading what you wrote.
And if i read ahead in your answer to my posting, it seems that youre answering just confirms my statements.
How lame is that? You can place that phrase in any discussion and it does not mean/add anything.
Further your "Always" is most certainly wrong since only a single helping answer in the archives would be enough. I bet there are more. So why did you use "always", is that the kind of not exaggerating that helps a constructive discussion?
This question i could give straight back. Do you think that your answering style is right adjusted corresponding to the text of the posting you have answered to, or ist it affected by your mood, maybe to much?
Answering a question with a question, nice.
Or are you just nitpicking?
You call me a nitpicker because you used the word "always" and I understood it the only way it can be, i.e. "always"? Honestly, that's lame. "Always" is absolute, there is no room for interpretation.
Do you really expect that i replace my "always" with an exact statistic how much good and bad answers are giving to how many good or bad questions?
Exaggerating to not have to admit that "always" is a word easily replaced by a less absolute word like e.g. "often" if one did not intend to state "always". It's just too obvious. Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kde+help@opensuse.org
Sven Burmeister schrieb:
Am Donnerstag, 19. März 2009 12:37:53 schrieb Jens Nixdorf:
Sven Burmeister schrieb:
Pick the question of mail that started this discussion and should have got a sensible answer:
I was answering in this thread because it developes in a discussion about KDE and the handling of it and the behaviour of some people which are somehow connected to this topic. But in my posting i was referring to the KDE-issue generally, not to the threadstarter-posting specifically.
"Always" means "always", if you do not want people to understand it that way, please pick another word and do not blame others for reading what you wrote.
And if i read ahead in your answer to my posting, it seems that youre answering just confirms my statements.
How lame is that? You can place that phrase in any discussion and it does not mean/add anything.
Even this sentence is a confirmation of my first posting.
Further your "Always" is most certainly wrong since only a single
helping
answer in the archives would be enough. I bet there are more. So why did you use "always", is that the kind of not exaggerating that helps a constructive discussion?
This question i could give straight back. Do you think that your answering style is right adjusted corresponding to the text of the posting you have answered to, or ist it affected by your mood, maybe to much?
Answering a question with a question, nice.
Answering a question with nothing isnt better, i think.
Or are you just nitpicking?
You call me a nitpicker because you used the word "always" and I
understood it
the only way it can be, i.e. "always"? Honestly, that's lame. "Always" is absolute, there is no room for interpretation.
Yes, thats nitpicking. Common speech isnt "always" the same as the words are explained in a dictionary. Normally people do know, that the word "always" in a context like in my posting doesnt have to taken literally. Maybe except you. In another mail in this thread you wrote, that you are not exaggerating. How far from reality is this... But starting a discussion about words and their context is a good way to establish a second discussion, which is far from the first one. If this was your intention, you were successful.
Do you really expect that i replace my "always" with an exact statistic how much good and bad answers are giving to how many good or bad questions?
Exaggerating to not have to admit that "always" is a word easily replaced
by a
less absolute word like e.g. "often" if one did not intend to state "always". It's just too obvious.
OK, than take this word: "nearly". Or this: "almost". Put this word in front of my "always" and than go back to the real discussion. You call me lame? Hmm. Jens -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kde+help@opensuse.org
participants (15)
-
Adrian Schröter -
Anshul Jain -
Bob S -
Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. -
Daniel Mader -
Jens Nixdorf -
kanenas＠hawaii.rr.com -
Lubos Lunak -
Martin Schlander -
Mathias Homann -
Matthias Fehring -
ne... -
Oliver -
Rajko M. -
Sven Burmeister