[opensuse-kde] Re: KDE 4.2 stable repo and KDE live CD respin

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Marc Benstein

3 Apr 2009 3 Apr '09

01:51

On Thu, Apr 2, 2009 at 3:54 PM, Sven Burmeister wrote:

...

- Create a KDE 4.2 repo by copying the files from the Factory repo. The KDE 4.2 repo is opensuse stable, i.e. frozen. The repo will not see any 4.2.3 version and only really, really important patches are added after the creation.

I have been watching and discussing the proposed repository layout for a while. And I believe with the new release schedule for openSUSE the KDE repo should be simple and look something like: KDE:/{Stable,Release,Factory} Where Stable is the current openSUSE version. Where Release (or something that defines a release from KDE) is the latest version from KDE such as 4.2.2 now. Where Factory is the next openSUSE version. Users should have no problem using Release and it switching from 4.2.4 to 4.3.0 as long as it is the latest release from KDE, right? With Release users will never miss a release from KDE (and that's what they want). Let's really try to keep this simple and avoid version number labeled repositories. That really was the original intention of Stable, Factory, and Unstable, wasn't it? Therefore, the spins could just point to Release. This way Release is always the latest from KDE. At times there will be overlapping between the repositories but this is acceptable. On the other hand right now Stable would be openSUSE 11.1 patched packages, Release would be KDE 4.2.2 packages, and Factory would be whatever openSUSE 11.2 will be using. This way openSUSE KDE testing could always be done in Factory and bleeding edge KDE users can always use Release. -- Marc Benstein -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kde+help@opensuse.org

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Rajko M.

3 Apr 3 Apr

05:14

On Thursday 02 April 2009 08:51:50 pm Marc Benstein wrote:

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Let's really try to keep this simple and avoid version number labeled repositories. That really was the original intention of Stable, Factory, and Unstable, wasn't it?

Sincerely everyone refer to stable KDE as 4.2, here, on KDE lists, forums. Using version makes clear what it is and avoids problem with single words that should describe repository. Which STABLE, KDE or openSUSE stable? The same with KDE_Factory. If it is factory, why one would need extra repo? To satisfy zypper imperfection. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kde+help@opensuse.org

Martin Schlander

08:40

Fredag den 3. april 2009 03:51:50 skrev Marc Benstein:

...

I have been watching and discussing the proposed repository layout for a while. And I believe with the new release schedule for openSUSE the KDE repo should be simple and look something like:

KDE:/{Stable,Release,Factory}

Where Stable is the current openSUSE version.

Where Release (or something that defines a release from KDE) is the latest version from KDE such as 4.2.2 now.

Where Factory is the next openSUSE version.

That would imply dropping "unstable" (kde trunk), and for the current situation it would mean maintaining two sets of KDE 4.2 packages - one under development and one vanilla. While of course a lot of users would like that, (since they all want to have their cake and eat it too) I don't think that would be worth the effort long term. Having two different repos with 4.2 (factory and release) would also confuse users. As would the "stable" and "release" names. Besides, I think time is on our side regarding this "problem", because: 1) when 11.2/4.3 comes around the need for running newer-than-officially- included KDE should diminish greatly - especially for the non-technical/non- enthusiast set of users. 2) If we refrain from changing the repo structure all the time, over time (most/more) people will learn to understand how it works. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kde+help@opensuse.org

Rajko M.

16:02

On Friday 03 April 2009 03:40:29 am Martin Schlander wrote: ...

...

1) when 11.2/4.3 comes around the need for running newer-than-officially- included KDE should diminish greatly - especially for the non-technical/non- enthusiast set of users.

2) If we refrain from changing the repo structure all the time, over time (most/more) people will learn to understand how it works.

Sure. I quitted to decipher what stable-unstable-factory means some time ago. I'm not every day on the topic and when I need it I have to wade trough mails to find announcements, or look in the repository. Everybody, here on the lists and upstream, refer to KDE version and new user looking for information will most probably get advice to look for 4.2 instead of stable, released etc. For openSUSE there is even more reasons to use version number. BTW, small readme, included in root of repo tree, with repo description would be very helpful, at least to experienced users. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kde+help@opensuse.org

Matthias Fehring

16:52

On Friday 03 April 2009 18:02:53 Rajko M. wrote:

...

On Friday 03 April 2009 03:40:29 am Martin Schlander wrote:

...

...
1) when 11.2/4.3 comes around the need for running newer-than-officially- included KDE should diminish greatly - especially for the non-technical/non- enthusiast set of users.

2) If we refrain from changing the repo structure all the time, over time (most/more) people will learn to understand how it works.

Sure. I quitted to decipher what stable-unstable-factory means some time ago. I'm not every day on the topic and when I need it I have to wade trough mails to find announcements, or look in the repository.

Why so complicated? Lokk at http://en.opensuse.org/KDE/Repositories an you know which repo to use. :)

...

Everybody, here on the lists and upstream, refer to KDE version and new user looking for information will most probably get advice to look for 4.2 instead of stable, released etc. For openSUSE there is even more reasons to use version number.

BTW, small readme, included in root of repo tree, with repo description would be very helpful, at least to experienced users.

-- Regards, Rajko

Best greetings Buschmann ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- openSUSE Member - de.opensuse.org Sys-Op http://en.opensuse.org/User:Buschmann23 http://en.opensuse.org/How_to_Participate http://en.opensuse.org/Geeko_wants_you!

Sven Burmeister

08:40

Am Freitag, 3. April 2009 03:51:50 schrieb Marc Benstein:

...

On Thu, Apr 2, 2009 at 3:54 PM, Sven Burmeister wrote:

...
- Create a KDE 4.2 repo by copying the files from the Factory repo. The KDE 4.2 repo is opensuse stable, i.e. frozen. The repo will not see any 4.2.3 version and only really, really important patches are added after the creation.

I have been watching and discussing the proposed repository layout for a while. And I believe with the new release schedule for openSUSE the KDE repo should be simple and look something like:

KDE:/{Stable,Release,Factory}

Where Stable is the current openSUSE version.

Where Release (or something that defines a release from KDE) is the latest version from KDE such as 4.2.2 now.

This means maintaining three KDE 4 versions. KDE 4.1 in STABLE, KDE 4.2 in "Release" (I guess you want version updates there too) and KDE 4.3 in Factory, which is worked on. UNSTABLE you are lacking completely. Given the current resources everything more than maintaining the KDE version released with openSUSE and a version that will be released with the next openSUSE is not doable. So unless you find people that maintain your "Release" repo, it will just suck up resources badly needed for the next openSUSE release. Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kde+help@opensuse.org

Daniel Mader

11:16

...

...
I have been watching and discussing the proposed repository layout for a while. And I believe with the new release schedule for openSUSE the KDE repo should be simple and look something like:

KDE:/{Stable,Release,Factory}

...

This means maintaining three KDE 4 versions. KDE 4.1 in STABLE, KDE 4.2 in "Release" (I guess you want version updates there too) and KDE 4.3 in Factory, which is worked on. UNSTABLE you are lacking completely.

I have never quite understood why we are maintaining fully outdated versions in the community distribution at all... By the time 11.2 will be out, no serious KDE user will still use 4.1, imo. It's just not as usable as the alternatives. Other distributions will have nice 4.2 packages long before openSUSE will officially provide an update. And factory is *NOT* a real alternative. Yes, this would break the current distribution policy, and yes, maybe that breakage will be no longer needed after 11.2 release. But *currently* I really feel it would be justified. The transition phase from KDE3 to KDE4 is painful and it requires new approaches to make users happy: every minor release brings back more of the fun from KDE3 usability.

...

Given the current resources everything more than maintaining the KDE version released with openSUSE and a version that will be released with the next openSUSE is not doable. So unless you find people that maintain your "Release" repo, it will just suck up resources badly needed for the next openSUSE release.

There is a packaging workshop this weekend given by wstephenson. I am trying to attend and I'd be willing to help with the proposed release/upstream repository. Maybe we find enough to be able to do so. If so, everyone of the current openSUSE contributors should welcome that. Instead, all I read here about subjects like that are discouragements. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kde+help@opensuse.org

Martin Schlander

11:58

Fredag den 3. april 2009 13:16:37 skrev Daniel Mader:

...

I have never quite understood why we are maintaining fully outdated versions in the community distribution at all... By the time 11.2 will be out, no serious KDE user will still use 4.1, imo. It's just not as usable as the alternatives. Other distributions will have nice 4.2 packages long before openSUSE will officially provide an update. And factory is *NOT* a real alternative.

The community/beineri developed KDE Reloaded livecd with frozen 4.2.x maybe an alternative for users that don't want the "excitement" of factory. About 4.1: * 4.1 needs to be maintained for SLE anyway. * I know it's difficult for you to believe, but there are lots and lots of users (the silent majority who don't appear on irc or mailinglists) who are happily using 4.1, and for whom an official 4.2 upgrade would cause lots of big problems. * Breaking the policy once, would open a barn door for discussions about breaking policy every god damn time, one single user would like to have some upstream feature released officially. * Other relatively sane distros do the same thing (Mandriva, Kubuntu) There are also distros that do ship 4.2 in a supported way, like Fedora or Arch, if you really think that rolling release or releasing major, barely tested upgrades is a model that's desirable. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kde+help@opensuse.org

Marcelo Magno T. Sales

21:52

Em Sex 03 Abr 2009, Martin Schlander escreveu:

...

Fredag den 3. april 2009 13:16:37 skrev Daniel Mader:

...
I have never quite understood why we are maintaining fully outdated versions in the community distribution at all... By the time 11.2 will be out, no serious KDE user will still use 4.1, imo. It's just not as usable as the alternatives. Other distributions will have nice 4.2 packages long before openSUSE will officially provide an update. And factory is *NOT* a real alternative.

The community/beineri developed KDE Reloaded livecd with frozen 4.2.x maybe an alternative for users that don't want the "excitement" of factory.

About 4.1: * 4.1 needs to be maintained for SLE anyway. * I know it's difficult for you to believe, but there are lots and lots of users (the silent majority who don't appear on irc or mailinglists) who are happily using 4.1, and for whom an official 4.2 upgrade would cause lots of big problems.

I can second that. In fact, I'm a former Fedora user who is here now because I finally got really tired of wasting so much time trying to fix things that broke every time I updated the system (_updated_, not upgraded). I've been using Fedora since FC3, but gave up after they released KDE 4.2 for Fedora 10 about two months ago, mainly because of the multitude of new problems in KMail, which was barely usable in my opinion. Don't know if it got better in the more recent KDE 4.2.x releases. I was a big fan of the latest and "greatest" that has always been made available in Fedora, but since KDE 4.0 I have learned to value stability over release speed. The only thing I miss in the patched 4.1.x provided by openSuSE 11.1 stable is Okular's ability to print to PDF. However, I will be patient and wait until you guys decide it is ready to go to stable. Everything else I need is there. Please, keep up with the good work and move new versions to stable repos only when it is really stable based on users feedback, not when the developers say it is.

...

* Breaking the policy once, would open a barn door for discussions about breaking policy every god damn time, one single user would like to have some upstream feature released officially.

Agree.

...

* Other relatively sane distros do the same thing (Mandriva, Kubuntu)

This is the right thing to do, in my opinion.

...

There are also distros that do ship 4.2 in a supported way, like Fedora or Arch, if you really think that rolling release or releasing major, barely tested upgrades is a model that's desirable.

Yes, it all depends on how much time you are willing to spend fixing things that break after updates because they were not tested enough and how much time you need to spend doing real work. I hope openSuSE continues to be a stable distribution instead of being one more to deliver the latest broken version of every software. []'s Marcelo -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kde+help@opensuse.org

Sven Burmeister

12:28

Am Freitag, 3. April 2009 13:16:37 schrieb Daniel Mader:

...

...
This means maintaining three KDE 4 versions. KDE 4.1 in STABLE, KDE 4.2 in "Release" (I guess you want version updates there too) and KDE 4.3 in Factory, which is worked on. UNSTABLE you are lacking completely.

I have never quite understood why we are maintaining fully outdated versions in the community distribution at all...

Then you should search the archives. KDE:STABLE is the place that exists to test patches that will be distributed via YOU, i.e. official patches. Those have to be tested or do you want them to be supplied untested? So that's why STABLE contains the KDE version shipped with the last openSUSE version + patches that will be distributed officially.

...

By the time 11.2 will be out, no serious KDE user will still use 4.1, imo. It's just not as usable as the alternatives. Other distributions will have nice 4.2 packages long before openSUSE will officially provide an update. And factory is *NOT* a real alternative.

Which distros offer official packages for KDE 4.2 which are not part of a release? With the frozen repo and the respin, openSUSE users will have a "stable" repo for KDE 4.2. Further, by the time 11.2 ships, openSUSE users will have official KDE 4.3 packages whereas the other distros don't. You cannot have everything and nobody wants KDE 4.2 as part of 11.2.

...

Yes, this would break the current distribution policy, and yes, maybe that breakage will be no longer needed after 11.2 release. But *currently* I really feel it would be justified.

Unfortunately it's not about feelings, but resources.

...

The transition phase from KDE3 to KDE4 is painful and it requires new approaches to make users happy: every minor release brings back more of the fun from KDE3 usability.

KDE 4.2.x does not add features, only bugfixes, so there are no "missing" features added to 4.2.3 or .2.4 anyway.

...

There is a packaging workshop this weekend given by wstephenson. I am trying to attend and I'd be willing to help with the proposed release/upstream repository. Maybe we find enough to be able to do so. If so, everyone of the current openSUSE contributors should welcome that. Instead, all I read here about subjects like that are discouragements.

That's because two things are mixed. One thing is what the community does. If it decides to provide a KDE repo, nobody is going to stop you. The second is what openSUSE developers do and every discussion about that topic is always bound to resources and ends in setting priorities. For the openSUSE developers, the openSUSE releases are the major priority and hence the KDE version shipping with those releases. As a result, everything else is up to the community. Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kde+help@opensuse.org

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Daniel Mader
Marc Benstein
Marcelo Magno T. Sales
Martin Schlander
Matthias Fehring
Rajko M.
Sven Burmeister