Am Dienstag, den 26.07.2016, 11:53 +0200 schrieb Lars Vogdt:
I'm not sure if it just affects me, but your Mailer seems not to be
really "quoting friendly" - at least I can not really distinguish
between your answers and the text that you quote. So sorry if I miss
Sorry! I have found a solution.
But I like to take the opportunity to start an explanation about the
openSUSE infrastructure history and my role in that. So lean back and
enjoy - maybe we can re-use parts of this email later somewhere ;-)
On Thu, 21 Jul 2016 08:23:05 +0200 Sarah-Julia Kriesch wrote:
I hope that's enough for Lars for bringing
new admin policies for
Provo admins on the table...
I'm sorry, but this is something for the openSUSE heroes and not for
You are right. Creating the policy is the job of the team. But you
the teamlead and have to approve that all.
Even if I'm willing to distribute whatever we
policy and act as an benevolent dictator for the openSUSE heroes, we
should discuss first if the current policy works:
...or if there is something missing (or even outdated, like
the use of admin(a)o.o). We might also discuss if WE need some team
From my POW we should not only discuss about the "team
structure" but also about some internal rules, starting with the
of expertise AND the area of responsibilities - including a list of
services that are currently unmaintained. I know that most of this
only be delivered by me or my team, as we are the main openSUSE
at the moment. I guess Gerhard can help here with a list of the
services running under the "openSUSE umbrella".
My main question/concern at the moment is where to store all the bits
and pieces to make them easy to find and maintain. With hundreds of
pages - some of them translated, some not - it's not easy even for me
to keep an overview about things going on. So if we say "put
in the wiki", I like to get an idea about the planned wiki structure
first. Or maybe we find/decide to use another place to have "our"
documentation (which one?) stored?
We have https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Services_team
which is now a
mix of an old page (started in December 2010 !) together with some
more up-to date content as "starting page". Thanks to Sarah for the
That's our main page of the team at the moment.
On the other hand, we have:
containing some more or less infrastructure related pages. I like the
mediawiki Categories to put different pages with different topics
together under one topic to make them easily findable - but others
might see it different.
You are right. And that's standard to do it so...
...and while I'm not really sure if it's needed,
is completely missing.
But I never understood the "Portal" stuff in mediawiki, so maybe I'm
wrong here asking for such a page.
You have got 2 wiki admins on this mailing
Portals are the main page for teams and openSUSE sub projects. There is
a small description about it, what would be to do and there should be a
list with all wiki pages for the special category on the right side.
Most important topics are linked there, too.
These are just 3 examples for the English wiki. But there is more:
- should become "the" information page
about (planned) outages and problems - and Gerhard is working hard
get this page up and running (what is missing from your side, btw?
Maybe we should collect/document the "wish-list" somewhere?)
- started as "project management
for us together with the former "boosters" team and the openSUSE
board. Now openQA, the openSUSE release-managers and even the oSC
team have also "their" projects there. The wiki provided in Redmine
might IMHO be a good choice for "our" documentation - but on the
other side this needs to be agreed inside our team and documented
also in the "official wiki".
is another interesting point for
discussion: at the moment, the permissions are restrictive as we
to store all the configuration stuff there (Salt). Maybe Theo can
start with some descriptive text "somewhere" about our (directory)
structure there, about the workflow, how to participate, ...
* ... and there are probably more pages somewhere outside that are of
interest *just* for potential openSUSE admins (Forums? More?). The
problem is just that only a very limited subset of people know
them and even less Admins really document their work. But if we -
right now - don't change that, I fear that in a few weeks
will be as before...
That's the problem at the moment! We can't get the information where
help will be needed (outside of SUSE) at the moment. That isn't
If nothing is changed in the next weeks, I can tell about the Fedora
Infrastructure team and their structure. One of my last colleagues is a
Member there. We can do what is working in other communitys, too.
They have got weekly meetings for discussions and don't document "all"
in the wiki. They tell about the first steps and what would be needed.
They have got a status page with a list of all systems, too. You can't
see only problems. You can see all systems there. So you can see all
parts of the infrastructure. If somebody wants to join, he writes a
mail and joins to the meeting where he can get tasks. The system
administration is splitted into Application Management and System
Provo admins are part of the Sysadmin team and
Lars is the team
No. Sorry. This is wrong. I'm responsible for some (~10) people
SUSE R&D - but SUSE itself is just one part of Micro Focus. A company
with more than 4,500 employees around the world. The so called "Provo
admins" are part of the Micro Focus IT, which is not only another
it's a complete other business unit with different stakeholders and
Sorry for misunderstanding. But you gainsay yourselve in your last mail
Am Dienstag, den 19.07.2016, 18:14 +0200 schrieb Lars Vogdt:> Hi>
On Mon, 18 Jul 2016 22:56:36 +0200 Christian Boltz
wrote:> > In the
first paragraph, I'd mention Provo to avoid that the
> in> > Nürnberg, including you, also get
blamed by people who don't
I see this a bit different - maybe because I'm working
my> point, we are *one* team, even if we are distributed across
and even companies. If one fails, the other ones might at
not> be able to step in - but who from the outside
cares if it's
"they" or> "we"?>
But Lars has to say a "Yes"
or "No" for changing the Admin Policies in Provo. ;-)
There is no "yes or no". I don't like - and must not - change any
in Provo or anywhere else in the "MF-IT" world. Please understand
I'm "just" (as you) someone from the openSUSE community there who can
ask questions and request some help. It might be that my social
there is a bit better at the moment, but that's not the point:
WE are the openSUSE admins - there is no hidden amount of people
working in some back office to keep all the machines, networks and
storage up and running.
That's it what Christian and I weren't able to see any more and wanted
to fix it...
We looked after people from Provo at the oSC and asked Craig, whether
he can do something there. He has got the best connections in Provo we
need. We only must "want to" do it. Many people/ managers can push more
than one person alone. I did that in the last company, if I wanted to
change something in a workflow or in a structure, too.
SUSE sponsored some machines here and there - and some
guys from my
team volunteered to administrate some openSUSE services in the past
nobody else did. From time to time there are others who step by and
offer there help - sometimes successful, sometimes not.
That's one of the reasons why I want to have the openSUSE
infrastructure handled in a way that allows external volunteers to
and help with the daily business of such a beast. From my past (and
current) point of view, we just did not want to maintain PHP
applications inside my team. That was the reason why all this stuff
currently hosted in Provo: because some (former) MF-IT admins there
volunteered to help and maintain it.
...and that's how it works: if there is some volunteer who is really
DOING something, he/she is the one making decisions. That's how it
works inside openSUSE and many other open source projects.
Our infrastructure problem is in the missing policies and
nobody really knows if something is possible or not - and if a
volunteer looses interest, there is currently nobody else than people
from the openSUSE heroes who step in to get the service up and
Something I like to change ...
This mail is already too long (sorry for that and thanks for reading
so I like to close here and wait for your questions and discussion
With kind regards,
That isn't too long. We are new in the team and need the information. ;
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