[opensuse-gnome] Yast-gtk package selector status
I have just seen some screenshots of the "new and improved" package selector. If I see some slight improvements, it's still far from what it should have been according to the original idea presented here: http://blog.sukimashita.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/martin-package-select... This nice, good looking and feature rich proposal became the following in alpha1: http://www.decriptor.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/packageselector1.png http://www.decriptor.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/packageselector2.png http://www.decriptor.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/packageselector3.png It definitely looks bad, and it doesn't seem to add all the functionalities YaST Software Management has in its Qt version. We discussed a lot about having a very similar interface on both desktop managers for YaST. This is not going in that direction, in my opinion, so it would be nice to have some clarification on the plans for openSUSE 11. P.S. Sorry for posting on two ML's, but the topic fits both. Thanks in advance, Alberto -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+help@opensuse.org
It definitely looks bad, and it doesn't seem to add all the functionalities YaST Software Management has in its Qt version.
Do you have a screenshot of the Qt version to compare with? I like the fact that the new version has a very clear and big button marked 'Upgrades' personally - but then, anyone who reads my blog knows that that's a bit of a beef with me :) -- James Ogley, openSUSE Member: GNOME Team and Planet SUSE. riggwelter@opensuse.org http://opensuse.org/GNOME http://planetsuse.org openSUSE: Get It, Discover It, Create It at http://www.opensuse.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+help@opensuse.org
Here it is: http://en.opensuse.org/YaST/Modules/Software_Management Mainly lacking features in the gtk edition I can think to: * No versions shown in the list (you've to click on all single packages). This was solved in the first proposal. * No highlighting of newest/oldest packages (in the qt version: blue -> a new package is available, red -> the installed package is newer than what's in repositories). This was solved in the first proposal, using icons. * Highest number of clicks to do one task: 1 click to select/lock/update a package in Qt, 2 clicks in the gtk version. Moreover, it's quite different from the Qt interface, so it makes hard to support people for example on IRC, or to write general tutorials/documentation. Il giorno mer, 27/02/2008 alle 13.43 +0000, James Ogley ha scritto:
It definitely looks bad, and it doesn't seem to add all the functionalities YaST Software Management has in its Qt version.
Do you have a screenshot of the Qt version to compare with?
I like the fact that the new version has a very clear and big button marked 'Upgrades' personally - but then, anyone who reads my blog knows that that's a bit of a beef with me :) -- James Ogley, openSUSE Member: GNOME Team and Planet SUSE. riggwelter@opensuse.org http://opensuse.org/GNOME http://planetsuse.org openSUSE: Get It, Discover It, Create It at http://www.opensuse.org
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Am Mittwoch, den 27.02.2008, 10:01 -0600 schrieb Alberto Passalacqua:
Here it is:
http://en.opensuse.org/YaST/Modules/Software_Management
Mainly lacking features in the gtk edition I can think to:
* No versions shown in the list (you've to click on all single packages). This was solved in the first proposal.
I don't see that having multiple versions of the same package in the list is good; it just gets crowded and unmanageable.
* No highlighting of newest/oldest packages (in the qt version: blue -> a new package is available, red -> the installed package is newer than what's in repositories). This was solved in the first proposal, using icons.
Errr... Newest packages are listed in the 'Upgrades' view. Again, I'm not a fan of having the list stuffed with multiple versions of packages, graced with colourful icons.
* Highest number of clicks to do one task: 1 click to select/lock/update a package in Qt, 2 clicks in the gtk version.
I don't think 2 clicks is too much. And if you want to select and update/lock multiple packages you have to use 2 clicks in both the QT and the GTK GUI anyway, so the difference is naught.
Moreover, it's quite different from the Qt interface, so it makes hard to support people for example on IRC, or to write general tutorials/documentation.
If writing a tutorial is all you worry about, I'd volunteer to write one. It'd be a heck of a lot easier than writing a how-to for the old QT-GUI. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+help@opensuse.org
Il giorno mer, 27/02/2008 alle 18.59 +0100, Christian Jäger ha scritto:
Am Mittwoch, den 27.02.2008, 10:01 -0600 schrieb Alberto Passalacqua:
Here it is:
http://en.opensuse.org/YaST/Modules/Software_Management
Mainly lacking features in the gtk edition I can think to:
* No versions shown in the list (you've to click on all single packages). This was solved in the first proposal.
I don't see that having multiple versions of the same package in the list is good; it just gets crowded and unmanageable.
That's not what I'm asking for. The installer should show the current installed version, and offer the possibility to select the most recent available, as the qt version does. This adds just two columns to the view, not elements to the list.
* No highlighting of newest/oldest packages (in the qt version: blue -> a new package is available, red -> the installed package is newer than what's in repositories). This was solved in the first proposal, using icons.
Errr... Newest packages are listed in the 'Upgrades' view. Again, I'm not a fan of having the list stuffed with multiple versions of packages, graced with colourful icons.
Again, see above. Have you ever used the Qt version of the installer? Please, check it.
Moreover, it's quite different from the Qt interface, so it makes hard to support people for example on IRC, or to write general tutorials/documentation.
If writing a tutorial is all you worry about, I'd volunteer to write one. It'd be a heck of a lot easier than writing a how-to for the old QT-GUI.
You don't absolutely get the point. When you write documentation for SUSE you've to manage two different installer interfaces, which is, to be honest, wrong in principle. Moreove you need to know two interfaces when you offer support. The result is that everyone is suggesting to disable Yast-gtk and use Yast-qt. Plain simple, and with a lot of good reasons. With kind regards, Alberto -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+help@opensuse.org
Am Mittwoch, den 27.02.2008, 13:44 -0600 schrieb Alberto Passalacqua:
That's not what I'm asking for. The installer should show the current installed version, and offer the possibility to select the most recent available, as the qt version does. This adds just two columns to the view, not elements to the list.
Hm? But it does! Select a package and you can select any version from the dropdown-menu. And yes, I have used the QT-Installer during my KDE-time but perhaps I don't remember / didn't use all its features.
You don't absolutely get the point. When you write documentation for SUSE you've to manage two different installer interfaces, which is, to be honest, wrong in principle.
Well, by that logic it is also wrong in principle to feature TWO desktop environments (or even more, as SUSE does)...
Moreove you need to know two interfaces when you offer support. The result is that everyone is suggesting to disable Yast-gtk and use Yast-qt. Plain simple, and with a lot of good reasons.
I don't agree in the slightest. Have you even TRIED the new GTK-package-selector yet, before making so much noise? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+help@opensuse.org
That's not what I'm asking for. The installer should show the current installed version, and offer the possibility to select the most recent available, as the qt version does. This adds just two columns to the view, not elements to the list.
Hm? But it does! Select a package and you can select any version from the dropdown-menu. And yes, I have used the QT-Installer during my KDE-time but perhaps I don't remember / didn't use all its features.
I wrote _show_, not allow to install. The version number should be readable without clicking anywhere. Moreover, can it change architecture (aka install 32 bit stuff on 64 bit systems)?
You don't absolutely get the point. When you write documentation for SUSE you've to manage two different installer interfaces, which is, to be honest, wrong in principle.
Well, by that logic it is also wrong in principle to feature TWO desktop environments (or even more, as SUSE does)...
I don't agree. But the system management tools should be _identical_ on all DE's. The idea at the base of Yast-gtk is to provide _look_ consistency, not a different interface, which adds just confusion.
Moreove you need to know two interfaces when you offer support. The result is that everyone is suggesting to disable Yast-gtk and use Yast-qt. Plain simple, and with a lot of good reasons.
I don't agree in the slightest. Have you even TRIED the new GTK-package-selector yet, before making so much noise?
I didn't try directly, but the screen shots looks exhaustive for me, and clearly show it doesn't match the corresponding Qt module, at least for now. There are visualisation also errors like this: http://www.decriptor.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/packageselector3.png because I don't think the right blue vertical bar is wanted. Am I right? Btw, it's not noise. I'm just summing the issues and frustrations we had on opensuse 10.3 because of the hurry to push the new installer in the distribution, and never really solved later. About the suggestion to go back to the Qt one, I just meant that it was the main suggestion given to users when they asked for support on IRC by support people in the channel. The main reasons of this are * the impossibility to lock packages (solved in the new installer) * the difficulty to select different versions * the impossibility to change architecture (required to have a really working java/flash/firefox stack on 64 bit) * the difficulty to help people, because support people in IRC is mainly made of KDE users All these aspects should be considered when changing things. Moreover, there's really no intention to complain without a point on my side. I just want to see these issue solved, and I don't think the proposed solution is moving in the right direction. With kind regards, Alberto -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+help@opensuse.org
Am Mittwoch, den 27.02.2008, 17:24 -0600 schrieb Alberto Passalacqua:
I wrote _show_, not allow to install. The version number should be readable without clicking anywhere.
I think that Ricardo might well grant you that wish; nothing's carved in stone. But there certainly are nicer ways to ask. That is why I called you mail 'noise'.
Moreover, can it change architecture (aka install 32 bit stuff on 64 bit systems)?
Haven't tried, dunno.
You don't absolutely get the point. When you write documentation for SUSE you've to manage two different installer interfaces, which is, to be honest, wrong in principle.
Well, by that logic it is also wrong in principle to feature TWO desktop environments (or even more, as SUSE does)...
I don't agree. But the system management tools should be _identical_ on all DE's. The idea at the base of Yast-gtk is to provide _look_ consistency, not a different interface, which adds just confusion.
AFAIK the GNOME-version of YaST is _not_ trying to mimick the look of the QT-YaST. It is emulating the look of the GNOME control-center. Seamless integration into the desktop environment describes the direction this is taking far better.
I don't agree in the slightest. Have you even TRIED the new GTK-package-selector yet, before making so much noise?
I didn't try directly, but the screen shots looks exhaustive for me, and clearly show it doesn't match the corresponding Qt module, at least for now. There are visualisation also errors like this:
http://www.decriptor.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/packageselector3.png
because I don't think the right blue vertical bar is wanted. Am I right?
No, you are absolutely wrong. This underlines how important it is that you don't make a whole lotta noise without even _testing_. Had you tested the new package-selector you would have realized that the blue bar on the right side appears once you make changes (install etc.). When you click the 'accept'-button you won't be greeted with an endless list of changes to perform anymore because you have an overview of what you have done in the selector all the time. You also can revert any action at any time (see the buttons next to the changes?).
Btw, it's not noise. I'm just summing the issues and frustrations we had on opensuse 10.3 because of the hurry to push the new installer in the distribution, and never really solved later.
You are completely missing the aim when you don't know the software you are complaining about.
Moreover, there's really no intention to complain without a point on my side. I just want to see these issue solved, and I don't think the proposed solution is moving in the right direction.
I'm a GNOME user. Personally, I don't see any sense in you complaining that the GNOME-version of the package-selector doesn't follow the same (bad IMHO) design-rules as the old QT-selector. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+help@opensuse.org
Hi Christian,
I think that Ricardo might well grant you that wish; nothing's carved in stone. But there certainly are nicer ways to ask.
That is why I called you mail 'noise'.
my disappointment is due to the fact that these issues have been discussed already immediately after the release of 10.3. A good proposal (1st screenshot) was done, and partly realised, and it received good comments by some users, also on the KDE side. Then suddenly it was abandoned without asking anything to the users, and without a motivation. Was it too hard to do? Too complex? No time?
AFAIK the GNOME-version of YaST is _not_ trying to mimick the look of the QT-YaST. It is emulating the look of the GNOME control-center. Seamless integration into the desktop environment describes the direction this is taking far better.
Maybe, but it's missing the point of YaST = providing a tool to manage the whole distribution in an identical way, independently of where you are.
No, you are absolutely wrong. This underlines how important it is that you don't make a whole lotta noise without even _testing_.
Had you tested the new package-selector you would have realized that the blue bar on the right side appears once you make changes (install etc.). When you click the 'accept'-button you won't be greeted with an endless list of changes to perform anymore because you have an overview of what you have done in the selector all the time. You also can revert any action at any time (see the buttons next to the changes?).
I tried it yesterday with the 1CD installation. My I didn't do that before. Indeed the installer improved a bit. But my doubts are still there. I noticed the role of the sidebar, that's not the point. The idea of being able to revert changes at any time is interesting, but it's a bit against to the idea of having a sort of "druid"-like tool (next -> next -> next). Moreover, this configuration misses a bit the point of warning the user about changes with a separate dialog. All my doubts about the functionalities are still there, except the lock one.
You are completely missing the aim when you don't know the software you are complaining about.
Not anymore :-)
I'm a GNOME user. Personally, I don't see any sense in you complaining that the GNOME-version of the package-selector doesn't follow the same (bad IMHO) design-rules as the old QT-selector.
Again, that's the whole point of YaST. Having a different control center look is not that bad because it's very intuitive anyway, but having different modules, with different ways of doing things, as I said, makes suppor/doc harder and confuses who uses both de's. I didn't say the Qt version is perfect, and for what I know, a makeover is work in progress. It would be a good thing if the people doing the Qt and the GTK version talked a bit, not to reinvent the wheel and to make them at least as similar as possible. It's also a way of reducing the efforts. With kind regards, Alberto -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+help@opensuse.org
Hi Alberto, Am Donnerstag, den 28.02.2008, 08:09 -0600 schrieb Alberto Passalacqua:
my disappointment is due to the fact that these issues have been discussed already immediately after the release of 10.3. A good proposal (1st screenshot) was done, and partly realised, and it received good comments by some users, also on the KDE side. Then suddenly it was abandoned without asking anything to the users, and without a motivation. Was it too hard to do? Too complex? No time?
Not really; as a matter of fact the new design incorporates some of the suggestions that I had made in the discussion back then, perhaps you remember. Greets, Chris -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-gnome+help@opensuse.org
Hi there, To clarify Martin's mockup: That mockup was one of two suggested by Martin Szulecki for the purpose of a brainstorm discussion. It was based on the look of the selector at the time which was a place holder, while the framework was being worked on. But PackageKit being set to replace it in an upcoming version, the idea was to try something different, so that some of it's design might serve as inspiration and live on. :/ With regard to the druid/assistant look, the main problem here is that most yast tool mixes an overview and a wizard flow without a visual break. This duality is confusing, and should be addressed. In the meanwhile, I agree we should get rid of the current look. That's on the TO-DO list for some time. Anyway, thanks for the review. Cheers, Ricardo Ter, 2008-02-26 às 22:53 -0600, Alberto Passalacqua escreveu:
I have just seen some screenshots of the "new and improved" package selector.
If I see some slight improvements, it's still far from what it should have been according to the original idea presented here:
http://blog.sukimashita.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/martin-package-select...
This nice, good looking and feature rich proposal became the following in alpha1:
http://www.decriptor.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/packageselector1.png
http://www.decriptor.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/packageselector2.png
http://www.decriptor.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/packageselector3.png
It definitely looks bad, and it doesn't seem to add all the functionalities YaST Software Management has in its Qt version.
We discussed a lot about having a very similar interface on both desktop managers for YaST. This is not going in that direction, in my opinion, so it would be nice to have some clarification on the plans for openSUSE 11.
P.S. Sorry for posting on two ML's, but the topic fits both.
Thanks in advance, Alberto
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participants (4)
-
Alberto Passalacqua -
Christian Jäger -
James Ogley -
Ricardo Cruz