Hi All,
It's openSUSE 13.2 release day, apologies for posting this a little later than intended, but here are the instructions for Tumblweed and Factory users to move to the 'new' merged Tumbleweed
Tumbleweed users *must* follow these instructions as soon as possible to continue to get rolling updates.
Factory users need to do this within the next 6 months, by which time the old Factory repositories will be removed. We will be sending out reminders as that deadline approaches, but you can do it now.
Remove your existing system repositories
# mkdir /etc/zypp/repos.d/old # mv /etc/zypp/repos.d/*.repo /etc/zypp/repos.d/old
Then add the new repositories for Tumbleweed
# zypper ar -f -c http://download.opensuse.org/tumbleweed/repo/oss repo-oss # zypper ar -f -c http://download.opensuse.org/tumbleweed/repo/non-oss repo-non-oss # zypper ar -f -c http://download.opensuse.org/tumbleweed/repo/debug repo-debug
Then zypper dup to new Tumbleweed
# zypper dup
REGARDING ADDITIONAL REPOSITORIES: The above instructions will remove ALL additional repositories you have configured. You will need to re-add those you need but please consider the below.
Users who are using additional 'openSUSE_Tumbleweed' repositories from OBS are recommended to either stop using those repositories or wait a few days to ensure the build service has had time sync up and has the packages built for 'new' Tumbleweed. We'll be posting updates here once we have them.
Users who are using additional 'openSUSE_Factory' repositories should be fine, besides the obvious 'name mismatch' which is obviously cosmetic, but will get your packages on your machine while we get OBS to reflect the merger.
On Tue, Nov 4, 2014 at 10:45 AM, Richard Brown rbrown@suse.de wrote:
Hi All,
It's openSUSE 13.2 release day, apologies for posting this a little later than intended, but here are the instructions for Tumblweed and Factory users to move to the 'new' merged Tumbleweed
Tumbleweed users *must* follow these instructions as soon as possible to continue to get rolling updates.
Factory users need to do this within the next 6 months, by which time the old Factory repositories will be removed. We will be sending out reminders as that deadline approaches, but you can do it now.
Remove your existing system repositories
# mkdir /etc/zypp/repos.d/old # mv /etc/zypp/repos.d/*.repo /etc/zypp/repos.d/old
Then add the new repositories for Tumbleweed
# zypper ar -f -c http://download.opensuse.org/tumbleweed/repo/oss repo-oss # zypper ar -f -c http://download.opensuse.org/tumbleweed/repo/non-oss repo-non-oss # zypper ar -f -c http://download.opensuse.org/tumbleweed/repo/debug repo-debug
Then zypper dup to new Tumbleweed
# zypper dup
REGARDING ADDITIONAL REPOSITORIES: The above instructions will remove ALL additional repositories you have configured. You will need to re-add those you need but please consider the below.
Users who are using additional 'openSUSE_Tumbleweed' repositories from OBS are recommended to either stop using those repositories or wait a few days to ensure the build service has had time sync up and has the packages built for 'new' Tumbleweed. We'll be posting updates here once we have them.
Users who are using additional 'openSUSE_Factory' repositories should be fine, besides the obvious 'name mismatch' which is obviously cosmetic, but will get your packages on your machine while we get OBS to reflect the merger.
Great!
A few questions:
What is the story with the Tumbleweed "updates" repo that was discussed in the earlier thread? Is that not going to happen at all, or is it happening later, or has a decision not been made? I am not even sure what would go in there if Tumbleweed is a rolling release.
I am still unclear about OBS project configuration. In the OBS "Add Repositories to __" page, it lists "openSUSE Factory" and "openSUSE Tumbleweed". Are these the same, or does "openSUSE Factory" pointing to the "testing" project that should only be used by devel projects?
If they are the same, what target should devel projects use to build against the "testing" version of Factory, and what should it be called? If devel projects does not already have this target, should it be added? Should publishing of this repository be enabled or disabled?
And when you say "devel project", is this any project that has packages that are marked as devel packages for Factory?
On 4 November 2014 11:05, Todd Rme toddrme2178@gmail.com wrote:
Great!
A few questions:
What is the story with the Tumbleweed "updates" repo that was discussed in the earlier thread? Is that not going to happen at all, or is it happening later, or has a decision not been made? I am not even sure what would go in there if Tumbleweed is a rolling release.
I think it will happen, but it is not happening as part of this merger. It will be for updates for specific things, to address urgent security issues (eg. Shellshock), where we need to get updates out to users of Tumbleweed faster than the Factory development process would otherwise allow.
I am still unclear about OBS project configuration. In the OBS "Add Repositories to __" page, it lists "openSUSE Factory" and "openSUSE Tumbleweed". Are these the same, or does "openSUSE Factory" pointing to the "testing" project that should only be used by devel projects?
I understand the confusion, I think it's best if I explain a bit of background subtlety that might not be obvious to many.
OBS has support for different 'repositories' attached to a Project.
openSUSE:Factory has several, 2 of which are relevant to this discussion, standard and snapshot
<repository name="openSUSE_Factory"> <path project="openSUSE:Factory" repository="standard"/> <arch>i586</arch> <arch>x86_64</arch> </repository>
<repository name="openSUSE_Factory"> <path project="openSUSE:Factory" repository="snapshot"/> <arch>i586</arch> <arch>x86_64</arch> </repository>
'standard' is the repository which is used by openQA for testing, so it's effectively 'the version of factory currently being tested by openQA'.
'snapshot' is the repository which contains the latest, passed, released snapshot from Factory. This is what we now call Tumbleweed
By the end of today (I'm working on it right now), openSUSE_Tumbleweed in OBS will match openSUSE:Factory snapshot - they'll be the same thing, identical in every way besides the name
If they are the same, what target should devel projects use to build against the "testing" version of Factory, and what should it be called? If devel projects does not already have this target, should it be added? Should publishing of this repository be enabled or disabled?
My advice would be the following:
Devel Project Maintainers should build against openSUSE Factory standard or openSUSE Factory snapshot depending on how they want to work. Some projects might prefer building against standard, build against 'what is coming' in Factory, but that potentially can make it harder to test manually. Other projects might prefer building against snapshot, 'what is released' in Factory snapshot/Tumbleweed, which makes it easier for them to test, but potentially can cause issues if Factory has something on the way that interacts with their packages. It's really down to the Devel Project maintainer, and that difference between standard and snapshot isn't new and today's changes don't change anything in that regard (ie. if you're a Devel Project maintainer and this hasn't bothered you before, it shouldn't bother you today)
However, Devel Projects are easy - they exist in order to funnel packages to Factory, they're meant to be used by developers/contributors.. people who won't mind having repositories named 'Factory' on their Tumbleweed installation - ie. 'not users'
However, if you're a maintainer of an OBS Project that targets users, I'd recommend the following
*ONCE I post here announcing the openSUSE Tumbleweed Project in OBS is ready*, then build your project against openSUSE_Tumbleweed and not openSUSE Factory standard or snapshot
That way, your OBS Project will be clearly obvious that it's intended for the users of the Tumbleweed rolling release, and the repository URL will have 'Tumbleweed' in the name, not Factory.
And when you say "devel project", is this any project that has packages that are marked as devel packages for Factory?
I mean a Devel Project, a project that exists to funnel packages into Factory, as described on our wiki: https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Factory_development_model
On 04.11.2014 12:19, Richard Brown wrote:
On 4 November 2014 11:05, Todd Rme toddrme2178@gmail.com wrote:
'standard' is the repository which is used by openQA for testing, so it's effectively 'the version of factory currently being tested by openQA'.
'snapshot' is the repository which contains the latest, passed, released snapshot from Factory. This is what we now call Tumbleweed
No, 'snapshot' is just a random snapshot of standard. It has nothing to do with the published repo.
Greetings, Stephan
On 04 Nov 13:42, Stephan Kulow wrote:
On 04.11.2014 12:19, Richard Brown wrote:
On 4 November 2014 11:05, Todd Rme toddrme2178@gmail.com wrote:
'standard' is the repository which is used by openQA for testing, so it's effectively 'the version of factory currently being tested by openQA'.
'snapshot' is the repository which contains the latest, passed, released snapshot from Factory. This is what we now call Tumbleweed
No, 'snapshot' is just a random snapshot of standard. It has nothing to do with the published repo.
What repo should we use to build against the rolling release then?
ismail
On 04.11.2014 13:44, İsmail Dönmez wrote:
On 04 Nov 13:42, Stephan Kulow wrote:
On 04.11.2014 12:19, Richard Brown wrote:
On 4 November 2014 11:05, Todd Rme toddrme2178@gmail.com wrote:
'standard' is the repository which is used by openQA for testing, so it's effectively 'the version of factory currently being tested by openQA'.
'snapshot' is the repository which contains the latest, passed, released snapshot from Factory. This is what we now call Tumbleweed
No, 'snapshot' is just a random snapshot of standard. It has nothing to do with the published repo.
What repo should we use to build against the rolling release then?
The release coming from Factory called Tumbleweed? How about openSUSE_Factory_Releases_Tumbleweed?
Greetings, Stephan
Dear Stephan and Richard,
On Tuesday 04 November 2014 13:42:21 Stephan Kulow wrote:
On 04.11.2014 12:19, Richard Brown wrote:
On 4 November 2014 11:05, Todd Rme toddrme2178@gmail.com wrote:
'standard' is the repository which is used by openQA for testing, so it's effectively 'the version of factory currently being tested by openQA'.
'snapshot' is the repository which contains the latest, passed, released snapshot from Factory. This is what we now call Tumbleweed
No, 'snapshot' is just a random snapshot of standard. It has nothing to do with the published repo.
I am getting more and more confused about this change. Based on this information, Tumbleweed would be a different repo that needs to be added to those repo's that are providing packages to Users which are not part of Factory/Tumbleweed.
An example would be KDE:Extra which is currently building for Factory (snapshot). My assumption here is that I should add the Tumbleweed target in order to build the packages for those users that are using Tumbleweed. As that this repo is also a devel project for Factory, we can not drop the Factory target.
So as what Stephan indicated, Tumbleweed repo is neither equal to Factory/snapshot nor Factory/standard, but a fully separate target. In this scenario Factory is the only devel project for Tumbleweed.
Raymond
On 04.11.2014 15:18, Raymond Wooninck wrote:
Dear Stephan and Richard,
On Tuesday 04 November 2014 13:42:21 Stephan Kulow wrote:
On 04.11.2014 12:19, Richard Brown wrote:
On 4 November 2014 11:05, Todd Rme toddrme2178@gmail.com wrote:
'standard' is the repository which is used by openQA for testing, so it's effectively 'the version of factory currently being tested by openQA'.
'snapshot' is the repository which contains the latest, passed, released snapshot from Factory. This is what we now call Tumbleweed
No, 'snapshot' is just a random snapshot of standard. It has nothing to do with the published repo.
I am getting more and more confused about this change. Based on this information, Tumbleweed would be a different repo that needs to be added to those repo's that are providing packages to Users which are not part of Factory/Tumbleweed.
An example would be KDE:Extra which is currently building for Factory (snapshot). My assumption here is that I should add the Tumbleweed target in order to build the packages for those users that are using Tumbleweed. As that this repo is also a devel project for Factory, we can not drop the Factory target.
So as what Stephan indicated, Tumbleweed repo is neither equal to Factory/snapshot nor Factory/standard, but a fully separate target. In this scenario Factory is the only devel project for Tumbleweed.
There is no such thing as a Tumbleweed repo in OBS. Richard just made it up. There is only openSUSE:Factory/standard, which is published (for whatever reason) as /tumbleweed. And to avoid ever rebuilding devel projects, we snapshot that standard repo from time to time when the OBS load is low - that happens mostly once a week.
Greetings, Stephan
On Tuesday 04 November 2014 16:08:00 Stephan Kulow wrote:
There is no such thing as a Tumbleweed repo in OBS. Richard just made it up. There is only openSUSE:Factory/standard, which is published (for whatever reason) as /tumbleweed. And to avoid ever rebuilding devel projects, we snapshot that standard repo from time to time when the OBS load is low - that happens mostly once a week.
Thanks Stephan,
Things became more clearer now : ) From your indication, I get that NOTHING changes on OBS and that actually Tumbleweed is just a PR name for the published factory.
Raymond
Tirsdag den 4. november 2014 16:16:41 skrev Raymond Wooninck:
On Tuesday 04 November 2014 16:08:00 Stephan Kulow wrote:
There is no such thing as a Tumbleweed repo in OBS. Richard just made it up. There is only openSUSE:Factory/standard, which is published (for whatever reason) as /tumbleweed. And to avoid ever rebuilding devel projects, we snapshot that standard repo from time to time when the OBS load is low - that happens mostly once a week.
Thanks Stephan,
Things became more clearer now : ) From your indication, I get that NOTHING changes on OBS and that actually Tumbleweed is just a PR name for the published factory.
Hm, but this would still mean that KDE:Extra for "Tumbleweed" would have a URL ending in "openSUSE_Factory".
I wonder if that's fixable.
On Tue, Nov 4, 2014 at 4:08 PM, Stephan Kulow coolo@suse.de wrote:
On 04.11.2014 15:18, Raymond Wooninck wrote:
Dear Stephan and Richard,
On Tuesday 04 November 2014 13:42:21 Stephan Kulow wrote:
On 04.11.2014 12:19, Richard Brown wrote:
On 4 November 2014 11:05, Todd Rme toddrme2178@gmail.com wrote:
'standard' is the repository which is used by openQA for testing, so it's effectively 'the version of factory currently being tested by openQA'.
'snapshot' is the repository which contains the latest, passed, released snapshot from Factory. This is what we now call Tumbleweed
No, 'snapshot' is just a random snapshot of standard. It has nothing to do with the published repo.
I am getting more and more confused about this change. Based on this information, Tumbleweed would be a different repo that needs to be added to those repo's that are providing packages to Users which are not part of Factory/Tumbleweed.
An example would be KDE:Extra which is currently building for Factory (snapshot). My assumption here is that I should add the Tumbleweed target in order to build the packages for those users that are using Tumbleweed. As that this repo is also a devel project for Factory, we can not drop the Factory target.
So as what Stephan indicated, Tumbleweed repo is neither equal to Factory/snapshot nor Factory/standard, but a fully separate target. In this scenario Factory is the only devel project for Tumbleweed.
There is no such thing as a Tumbleweed repo in OBS. Richard just made it up. There is only openSUSE:Factory/standard, which is published (for whatever reason) as /tumbleweed. And to avoid ever rebuilding devel projects, we snapshot that standard repo from time to time when the OBS load is low - that happens mostly once a week.
So if someone wants to add, say, the KDE:Extra repository for Tumbleweed, they will use KDE:Extra/openSUSE_Factory not KDE:Extra/openSUSE_Tumbleweed? That seems confusing.
On Tuesday 04 November 2014 16:29:54 Todd Rme wrote:
So if someone wants to add, say, the KDE:Extra repository for Tumbleweed, they will use KDE:Extra/openSUSE_Factory not KDE:Extra/openSUSE_Tumbleweed? That seems confusing.
This can be fixed by renaming the repositories, so that they correspond correctly. But this is a pure cosmetic thing, which only needs to be done for those repositories that are in use by common users. e.g. KDE:Extra. Projects like KDE:Distro:Factory do not require this name as that it is not really intended to have users utilizing this repository. This would mean that we need to adjust some wiki's as well to make things a little clearer.
Raymond
On Tue, Nov 4, 2014 at 4:37 PM, Raymond Wooninck tittiatcoke@gmail.com wrote:
On Tuesday 04 November 2014 16:29:54 Todd Rme wrote:
So if someone wants to add, say, the KDE:Extra repository for Tumbleweed, they will use KDE:Extra/openSUSE_Factory not KDE:Extra/openSUSE_Tumbleweed? That seems confusing.
This can be fixed by renaming the repositories, so that they correspond correctly. But this is a pure cosmetic thing, which only needs to be done for those repositories that are in use by common users. e.g. KDE:Extra. Projects like KDE:Distro:Factory do not require this name as that it is not really intended to have users utilizing this repository. This would mean that we need to adjust some wiki's as well to make things a little clearer.
That would be okay for major repositories, but for user home repositories I think this would add a lot of confusion. What is the benefit of this approach rather than just having an "openSUSE_Tumbleweed" build target that is an alias for the "openSUSE_Factory:snapshot" build target?
On Tue, 2014-11-04 at 16:29 +0100, Todd Rme wrote:
On Tue, Nov 4, 2014 at 4:08 PM, Stephan Kulow coolo@suse.de wrote:
On 04.11.2014 15:18, Raymond Wooninck wrote:
Dear Stephan and Richard,
On Tuesday 04 November 2014 13:42:21 Stephan Kulow wrote:
On 04.11.2014 12:19, Richard Brown wrote:
On 4 November 2014 11:05, Todd Rme toddrme2178@gmail.com wrote:
'standard' is the repository which is used by openQA for testing, so it's effectively 'the version of factory currently being tested by openQA'.
'snapshot' is the repository which contains the latest, passed, released snapshot from Factory. This is what we now call Tumbleweed
No, 'snapshot' is just a random snapshot of standard. It has nothing to do with the published repo.
I am getting more and more confused about this change. Based on this information, Tumbleweed would be a different repo that needs to be added to those repo's that are providing packages to Users which are not part of Factory/Tumbleweed.
An example would be KDE:Extra which is currently building for Factory (snapshot). My assumption here is that I should add the Tumbleweed target in order to build the packages for those users that are using Tumbleweed. As that this repo is also a devel project for Factory, we can not drop the Factory target.
So as what Stephan indicated, Tumbleweed repo is neither equal to Factory/snapshot nor Factory/standard, but a fully separate target. In this scenario Factory is the only devel project for Tumbleweed.
There is no such thing as a Tumbleweed repo in OBS. Richard just made it up. There is only openSUSE:Factory/standard, which is published (for whatever reason) as /tumbleweed. And to avoid ever rebuilding devel projects, we snapshot that standard repo from time to time when the OBS load is low - that happens mostly once a week.
So if someone wants to add, say, the KDE:Extra repository for Tumbleweed, they will use KDE:Extra/openSUSE_Factory not KDE:Extra/openSUSE_Tumbleweed? That seems confusing.
You could add a openSUSE_Tumbleweed repository, which has as its path project-"openSUSE:Factory" repository="standard"
=> this results in a correct user-link ending on openSUSE_Tumbleweed
Cheers, Dominique
On Tue, Nov 4, 2014 at 4:38 PM, Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger dimstar@opensuse.org wrote:
On Tue, 2014-11-04 at 16:29 +0100, Todd Rme wrote:
On Tue, Nov 4, 2014 at 4:08 PM, Stephan Kulow coolo@suse.de wrote:
On 04.11.2014 15:18, Raymond Wooninck wrote:
Dear Stephan and Richard,
On Tuesday 04 November 2014 13:42:21 Stephan Kulow wrote:
On 04.11.2014 12:19, Richard Brown wrote:
On 4 November 2014 11:05, Todd Rme toddrme2178@gmail.com wrote:
'standard' is the repository which is used by openQA for testing, so it's effectively 'the version of factory currently being tested by openQA'.
'snapshot' is the repository which contains the latest, passed, released snapshot from Factory. This is what we now call Tumbleweed
No, 'snapshot' is just a random snapshot of standard. It has nothing to do with the published repo.
I am getting more and more confused about this change. Based on this information, Tumbleweed would be a different repo that needs to be added to those repo's that are providing packages to Users which are not part of Factory/Tumbleweed.
An example would be KDE:Extra which is currently building for Factory (snapshot). My assumption here is that I should add the Tumbleweed target in order to build the packages for those users that are using Tumbleweed. As that this repo is also a devel project for Factory, we can not drop the Factory target.
So as what Stephan indicated, Tumbleweed repo is neither equal to Factory/snapshot nor Factory/standard, but a fully separate target. In this scenario Factory is the only devel project for Tumbleweed.
There is no such thing as a Tumbleweed repo in OBS. Richard just made it up. There is only openSUSE:Factory/standard, which is published (for whatever reason) as /tumbleweed. And to avoid ever rebuilding devel projects, we snapshot that standard repo from time to time when the OBS load is low - that happens mostly once a week.
So if someone wants to add, say, the KDE:Extra repository for Tumbleweed, they will use KDE:Extra/openSUSE_Factory not KDE:Extra/openSUSE_Tumbleweed? That seems confusing.
You could add a openSUSE_Tumbleweed repository, which has as its path project-"openSUSE:Factory" repository="standard"
=> this results in a correct user-link ending on openSUSE_Tumbleweed
I thought it was "openSUSE:Factory" repository="snapshot"?
On 04.11.2014 16:42, Todd Rme wrote:
You could add a openSUSE_Tumbleweed repository, which has as its path project-"openSUSE:Factory" repository="standard"
=> this results in a correct user-link ending on openSUSE_Tumbleweed
I thought it was "openSUSE:Factory" repository="snapshot"?
For 90% of all projects, snapshot will be the better choice. But there is no right or wrong actually.
Greetings, Stephan
On Tue, Nov 4, 2014 at 4:46 PM, Stephan Kulow coolo@suse.de wrote:
On 04.11.2014 16:42, Todd Rme wrote:
You could add a openSUSE_Tumbleweed repository, which has as its path project-"openSUSE:Factory" repository="standard"
=> this results in a correct user-link ending on openSUSE_Tumbleweed
I thought it was "openSUSE:Factory" repository="snapshot"?
For 90% of all projects, snapshot will be the better choice. But there is no right or wrong actually.
I am getting really confused now. I thought the Tumbleweed repo is an alias for "openSUSE:Factory" repository="snapshot", which could be as much as a week behind "openSUSE:Factory" repository="standard". Is that correct?
That means, if someone has a repository with a "Tumbleweed" target, that is just a name for "openSUSE:Factory" repository="standard", doesn't that mean they could end up with their "Tumbleweed" packages being built against packages that are not yet in "Tumbleweed". Is that also correct?
If so, under what situation would that be better choice?
On Tuesday 2014-11-04 16:46, Stephan Kulow wrote:
On 04.11.2014 16:42, Todd Rme wrote:
You could add a openSUSE_Tumbleweed repository, which has as its path project-"openSUSE:Factory" repository="standard"
=> this results in a correct user-link ending on openSUSE_Tumbleweed
I thought it was "openSUSE:Factory" repository="snapshot"?
For 90% of all projects, snapshot will be the better choice. But there is no right or wrong actually.
If openSUSE:Factory/standard is Tumbleweed, and openSUSE:Factory/snapshot is a TW snapshot, it would make more sense to rename it to Tumbleweed too. Factory, the way it looks, only lives on in openSUSE:Factory:Staging:.
On 04.11.2014 17:01, Jan Engelhardt wrote:
On Tuesday 2014-11-04 16:46, Stephan Kulow wrote:
On 04.11.2014 16:42, Todd Rme wrote:
You could add a openSUSE_Tumbleweed repository, which has as its path project-"openSUSE:Factory" repository="standard"
=> this results in a correct user-link ending on openSUSE_Tumbleweed
I thought it was "openSUSE:Factory" repository="snapshot"?
For 90% of all projects, snapshot will be the better choice. But there is no right or wrong actually.
If openSUSE:Factory/standard is Tumbleweed, and openSUSE:Factory/snapshot is a TW snapshot, it would make more sense to rename it to Tumbleweed too. Factory, the way it looks, only lives on in openSUSE:Factory:Staging:.
Tumbleweed is the name of the product - it's not a project nor a process. openSUSE:Factory/snapshot is *not* a snapshot of the product as such it's not a Tumbleweed snapshot.
Greetings, Stephan
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
On 04.11.2014 Stephan Kulow wrote:
There is no such thing as a Tumbleweed repo in OBS. Richard just made it up. There is only openSUSE:Factory/standard, which is published (for whatever reason) as /tumbleweed.
This isn't meant to be rude, but if two of the 'main' guys in openSUSE fail to speak along the same lines when explaining the merger, that creates *big* confusion.
Maybe clarify this internally next time and give out only information, that is coherent and understandable by humans... ;-)
Regards, Johannes
P.S.: Nevertheless, I'm looking forward to the new Tumbleweed. Or do I have to say the new openSUSE Factory standard that is published as /tumbleweed? - -- Coming back to where you started is not the same as never leaving. (Terry Pratchett)
On 11/04/2014 08:41 PM, Johannes Kastl wrote:
On 04.11.2014 Stephan Kulow wrote:
There is no such thing as a Tumbleweed repo in OBS. Richard just made it up. There is only openSUSE:Factory/standard, which is published (for whatever reason) as /tumbleweed.
This isn't meant to be rude, but if two of the 'main' guys in openSUSE fail to speak along the same lines when explaining the merger, that creates *big* confusion.
Maybe clarify this internally next time and give out only information, that is coherent and understandable by humans... ;-)
I understand your point, but I would say that there are not many places I would consider "more internal" to the openSUSE project than this list.
Regards.
On 11/05/2014 02:34 AM, Ancor Gonzalez Sosa wrote:
On 11/04/2014 08:41 PM, Johannes Kastl wrote:
On 04.11.2014 Stephan Kulow wrote:
There is no such thing as a Tumbleweed repo in OBS. Richard just made it up. There is only openSUSE:Factory/standard, which is published (for whatever reason) as /tumbleweed.
This isn't meant to be rude, but if two of the 'main' guys in openSUSE fail to speak along the same lines when explaining the merger, that creates *big* confusion.
Maybe clarify this internally next time and give out only information, that is coherent and understandable by humans... ;-)
I understand your point, but I would say that there are not many places I would consider "more internal" to the openSUSE project than this list.
Regards.
Private email????????
On 5 November 2014 15:01, Ken Schneider - Factory suse-list3@bout-tyme.net wrote:
I understand your point, but I would say that there are not many places I would consider "more internal" to the openSUSE project than this list.
Regards.
Private email????????
While obviously its embarrassing for me to be corrected in public by Coolo, and there probably are times private emails make more sense, think Ancor's point is valid
I'd rather be corrected in public, and then have an opportunity to clear up the situation, than only talk when I was 100% absolutely certain, or only hear when I'm wrong via private channels
Hopefully the recent emails are starting to clear up the situation for everyone. We're trying our best to make this transition as smooth and as painless as possible, every where that isn't the case is a lesson learned for the next big change.
On 05/11/14 02:08, Stephan Kulow wrote:
On 04.11.2014 15:18, Raymond Wooninck wrote:
Dear Stephan and Richard,
On Tuesday 04 November 2014 13:42:21 Stephan Kulow wrote:
On 04.11.2014 12:19, Richard Brown wrote:
On 4 November 2014 11:05, Todd Rme toddrme2178@gmail.com wrote:
'standard' is the repository which is used by openQA for testing, so it's effectively 'the version of factory currently being tested by openQA'.
'snapshot' is the repository which contains the latest, passed, released snapshot from Factory. This is what we now call Tumbleweed
No, 'snapshot' is just a random snapshot of standard. It has nothing to do with the published repo.
I am getting more and more confused about this change. Based on this information, Tumbleweed would be a different repo that needs to be added to those repo's that are providing packages to Users which are not part of Factory/Tumbleweed.
An example would be KDE:Extra which is currently building for Factory (snapshot). My assumption here is that I should add the Tumbleweed target in order to build the packages for those users that are using Tumbleweed. As that this repo is also a devel project for Factory, we can not drop the Factory target.
So as what Stephan indicated, Tumbleweed repo is neither equal to Factory/snapshot nor Factory/standard, but a fully separate target. In this scenario Factory is the only devel project for Tumbleweed.
There is no such thing as a Tumbleweed repo in OBS. Richard just made it up.
Oh Christ :'( .
A brand new openSUSE is released which is supposed to be also a "rolling" release and the "Chairman of the Board" is 'making things up' :-( .
Isn't there anyone who can provide us users with a DEFINITE, CONCISE, and UNDERSTANDABLE set of instructions on what to do after one installs 13.2 and wants it to be "rolling release"?
PLEASE!
There is only openSUSE:Factory/standard, which is published (for whatever reason) as /tumbleweed. And to avoid ever rebuilding devel projects, we snapshot that standard repo from time to time when the OBS load is low - that happens mostly once a week.
Greetings, Stephan
BC
On 5 November 2014 07:42, Basil Chupin blchupin@iinet.net.au wrote:
On 05/11/14 02:08, Stephan Kulow wrote:
On 04.11.2014 15:18, Raymond Wooninck wrote:
Dear Stephan and Richard,
On Tuesday 04 November 2014 13:42:21 Stephan Kulow wrote:
On 04.11.2014 12:19, Richard Brown wrote:
On 4 November 2014 11:05, Todd Rme toddrme2178@gmail.com wrote:
'standard' is the repository which is used by openQA for testing, so it's effectively 'the version of factory currently being tested by openQA'.
'snapshot' is the repository which contains the latest, passed, released snapshot from Factory. This is what we now call Tumbleweed
No, 'snapshot' is just a random snapshot of standard. It has nothing to do with the published repo.
I am getting more and more confused about this change. Based on this information, Tumbleweed would be a different repo that needs to be added to those repo's that are providing packages to Users which are not part of Factory/Tumbleweed.
An example would be KDE:Extra which is currently building for Factory (snapshot). My assumption here is that I should add the Tumbleweed target in order to build the packages for those users that are using Tumbleweed. As that this repo is also a devel project for Factory, we can not drop the Factory target.
So as what Stephan indicated, Tumbleweed repo is neither equal to Factory/snapshot nor Factory/standard, but a fully separate target. In this scenario Factory is the only devel project for Tumbleweed.
There is no such thing as a Tumbleweed repo in OBS. Richard just made it up.
Oh Christ :'( .
A brand new openSUSE is released which is supposed to be also a "rolling" release and the "Chairman of the Board" is 'making things up' :-( .
Isn't there anyone who can provide us users with a DEFINITE, CONCISE, and UNDERSTANDABLE set of instructions on what to do after one installs 13.2 and wants it to be "rolling release"?
PLEASE!
Definite, concise, and understandable instructions for users who want to migrate to Tumbleweed are here: https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Tumbleweed_installation
There is only openSUSE:Factory/standard, which is published (for whatever reason) as /tumbleweed. And to avoid ever rebuilding devel projects, we snapshot that standard repo from time to time when the OBS load is low - that happens mostly once a week.
Greetings, Stephan
BC
-- Using openSUSE 13.2, KDE 4.14.2 & kernel 3.17.2-1 on a system with- AMD FX 8-core 3.6/4.2GHz processor 16GB PC14900/1866MHz Quad Channel RAM Gigabyte AMD3+ m/board; Gigabyte nVidia GTX660 GPU
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 05.11.2014 09:58, Richard Brown wrote:
On 5 November 2014 07:42, Basil Chupin blchupin@iinet.net.au wrote:
Isn't there anyone who can provide us users with a DEFINITE, CONCISE, and UNDERSTANDABLE set of instructions on what to do after one installs 13.2 and wants it to be "rolling release"?
PLEASE!
Definite, concise, and understandable instructions for users who want to migrate to Tumbleweed are here: https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Tumbleweed_installation
It ends there like this:
"Now go make some coffee and have a lot of fun when using our rolling release."
Using TW from that on used to require updates commanding 'zypper dup' every now and then.
I guess that's still a valid method?
Vahis
On 11/05/2014 11:19 AM, Vahis wrote:
Using TW from that on used to require updates commanding 'zypper dup' every now and then.
I guess that's still a valid method?
.................
- correct : that still is valid
regards
On 05/11/14 18:58, Richard Brown wrote:
On 5 November 2014 07:42, Basil Chupinblchupin@iinet.net.au wrote:
On 05/11/14 02:08, Stephan Kulow wrote:
On 04.11.2014 15:18, Raymond Wooninck wrote:
Dear Stephan and Richard,
On Tuesday 04 November 2014 13:42:21 Stephan Kulow wrote:
On 04.11.2014 12:19, Richard Brown wrote:
On 4 November 2014 11:05, Todd Rmetoddrme2178@gmail.com wrote:
'standard' is the repository which is used by openQA for testing, so it's effectively 'the version of factory currently being tested by openQA'.
'snapshot' is the repository which contains the latest, passed, released snapshot from Factory. This is what we now call Tumbleweed
No, 'snapshot' is just a random snapshot of standard. It has nothing to do with the published repo.
I am getting more and more confused about this change. Based on this information, Tumbleweed would be a different repo that needs to be added to those repo's that are providing packages to Users which are not part of Factory/Tumbleweed.
An example would be KDE:Extra which is currently building for Factory (snapshot). My assumption here is that I should add the Tumbleweed target in order to build the packages for those users that are using Tumbleweed. As that this repo is also a devel project for Factory, we can not drop the Factory target.
So as what Stephan indicated, Tumbleweed repo is neither equal to Factory/snapshot nor Factory/standard, but a fully separate target. In this scenario Factory is the only devel project for Tumbleweed.
There is no such thing as a Tumbleweed repo in OBS. Richard just made it up.
Oh Christ :'( .
A brand new openSUSE is released which is supposed to be also a "rolling" release and the "Chairman of the Board" is 'making things up' :-( .
Isn't there anyone who can provide us users with a DEFINITE, CONCISE, and UNDERSTANDABLE set of instructions on what to do after one installs 13.2 and wants it to be "rolling release"?
PLEASE!
Definite, concise, and understandable instructions for users who want to migrate to Tumbleweed are here: https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Tumbleweed_installation
Firstly, apologies for the late response - but I didn't have a phone line (ergo, no internet) for quite some time.
Secondly, apologies for the shouting - but it's better than using foul language :-) .
Thirdly, thank you Richard for pointing out the URL above.
However, and unfortunately, I don't agree that that page contains "definite, concise, and understandable instructions for users": there is no mention on what to do with regards to the additional repositories one would add such as Games, Packman, Libdvdcss and so on.
BC
On 13 November 2014 05:01, Basil Chupin blchupin@iinet.net.au wrote:
However, and unfortunately, I don't agree that that page contains "definite, concise, and understandable instructions for users": there is no mention on what to do with regards to the additional repositories one would add such as Games, Packman, Libdvdcss and so on.
Definite - 1 Clearly stated or decided; not vague or doubtful; 1.4 Having exact and discernible physical limits or form;
Concise - Giving a lot of information clearly and in a few words; brief but comprehensive:
Source: Oxford English Dictionary
Your request was for information was regarding the Tumbleweed rolling distribution. The URL supplied provides the Definite and Consist information regarding the topic.
If that link contained all the information regarding every possible other Project/Repository that you could possibly use with Tumbleweed, it would be impossible to supply that information in a Concise manner.
Furthermore, I, as the one most responsible for the merger of Tumbleweed and Factory, can only speak with authority regarding Tumbleweed.
Other Projects, such as Games, Packman, Libdvdcss are maintained by other people, and any information I would provide on those topics would therefore not also be definite. I don't know everything :)
I don't see how we can equate your current feelings with the reality of the situation. I've provided guidance to OBS Project Maintainers on the topic - http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2014-11/msg00120.html but it is ultimately their responsibility to make the decisions they feel are right for their projects and to communicate that to their users via methods they feel are best.
It might make sense for those maintainers to edit the Tumbleweed wiki articles to add the status and instructions for their Projects, but that's a choice I have to leave for them, as anything I would put there would likely be speculative, and stepping on their toes.
Regards,
Richard
On 11/13/2014 04:20 AM, Richard Brown wrote:
On 13 November 2014 05:01, Basil Chupin blchupin@iinet.net.au wrote:
However, and unfortunately, I don't agree that that page contains "definite, concise, and understandable instructions for users": there is no mention on what to do with regards to the additional repositories one would add such as Games, Packman, Libdvdcss and so on.
Definite - 1 Clearly stated or decided; not vague or doubtful; 1.4 Having exact and discernible physical limits or form;
Concise - Giving a lot of information clearly and in a few words; brief but comprehensive:
Source: Oxford English Dictionary
Your request was for information was regarding the Tumbleweed rolling distribution. The URL supplied provides the Definite and Consist information regarding the topic.
If that link contained all the information regarding every possible other Project/Repository that you could possibly use with Tumbleweed, it would be impossible to supply that information in a Concise manner.
Furthermore, I, as the one most responsible for the merger of Tumbleweed and Factory, can only speak with authority regarding Tumbleweed.
Other Projects, such as Games, Packman, Libdvdcss are maintained by other people, and any information I would provide on those topics would therefore not also be definite. I don't know everything :)
You don't need to know everything. In the standard non-tumbleweed install when using:
YaST-->Software Repositories-->Add-->Community Repositories
a list appears where we can select from many "community" repos. For TW users the question becomes, why is there not a list available? This list is always downloaded from somewhere, why not have such a list for TW users? And it can be maintained by the "community" that provides repos for TW users.
On 05/11/14 01:18, Raymond Wooninck wrote:
Dear Stephan and Richard,
On Tuesday 04 November 2014 13:42:21 Stephan Kulow wrote:
On 04.11.2014 12:19, Richard Brown wrote:
On 4 November 2014 11:05, Todd Rme toddrme2178@gmail.com wrote:
'standard' is the repository which is used by openQA for testing, so it's effectively 'the version of factory currently being tested by openQA'.
'snapshot' is the repository which contains the latest, passed, released snapshot from Factory. This is what we now call Tumbleweed
No, 'snapshot' is just a random snapshot of standard. It has nothing to do with the published repo.
I am getting more and more confused about this change.
+1 to the power of 'n' :-( .
Based on this information, Tumbleweed would be a different repo that needs to be added to those repo's that are providing packages to Users which are not part of Factory/Tumbleweed.
An example would be KDE:Extra which is currently building for Factory (snapshot). My assumption here is that I should add the Tumbleweed target in order to build the packages for those users that are using Tumbleweed. As that this repo is also a devel project for Factory, we can not drop the Factory target.
So as what Stephan indicated, Tumbleweed repo is neither equal to Factory/snapshot nor Factory/standard, but a fully separate target. In this scenario Factory is the only devel project for Tumbleweed.
Raymond
BC
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On 11/04/2014 06:19 AM, Richard Brown wrote:
On 4 November 2014 11:05, Todd Rme toddrme2178@gmail.com wrote:
Great!
A few questions:
What is the story with the Tumbleweed "updates" repo that was discussed in the earlier thread? Is that not going to happen at all, or is it happening later, or has a decision not been made? I am not even sure what would go in there if Tumbleweed is a rolling release.
I think it will happen, but it is not happening as part of this merger. It will be for updates for specific things, to address urgent security issues (eg. Shellshock), where we need to get updates out to users of Tumbleweed faster than the Factory development process would otherwise allow.
I am still unclear about OBS project configuration. In the OBS "Add Repositories to __" page, it lists "openSUSE Factory" and "openSUSE Tumbleweed". Are these the same, or does "openSUSE Factory" pointing to the "testing" project that should only be used by devel projects?
I understand the confusion, I think it's best if I explain a bit of background subtlety that might not be obvious to many.
OBS has support for different 'repositories' attached to a Project.
openSUSE:Factory has several, 2 of which are relevant to this discussion, standard and snapshot
<repository name="openSUSE_Factory"> <path project="openSUSE:Factory" repository="standard"/> <arch>i586</arch> <arch>x86_64</arch> </repository>
<repository name="openSUSE_Factory"> <path project="openSUSE:Factory" repository="snapshot"/> <arch>i586</arch> <arch>x86_64</arch> </repository>
'standard' is the repository which is used by openQA for testing, so it's effectively 'the version of factory currently being tested by openQA'.
'snapshot' is the repository which contains the latest, passed, released snapshot from Factory. This is what we now call Tumbleweed
By the end of today (I'm working on it right now), openSUSE_Tumbleweed in OBS will match openSUSE:Factory snapshot - they'll be the same thing, identical in every way besides the name
If they are the same, what target should devel projects use to build against the "testing" version of Factory, and what should it be called? If devel projects does not already have this target, should it be added? Should publishing of this repository be enabled or disabled?
My advice would be the following:
Devel Project Maintainers should build against openSUSE Factory standard or openSUSE Factory snapshot depending on how they want to work. Some projects might prefer building against standard, build against 'what is coming' in Factory, but that potentially can make it harder to test manually. Other projects might prefer building against snapshot, 'what is released' in Factory snapshot/Tumbleweed, which makes it easier for them to test, but potentially can cause issues if Factory has something on the way that interacts with their packages. It's really down to the Devel Project maintainer, and that difference between standard and snapshot isn't new and today's changes don't change anything in that regard (ie. if you're a Devel Project maintainer and this hasn't bothered you before, it shouldn't bother you today)
However, Devel Projects are easy - they exist in order to funnel packages to Factory, they're meant to be used by developers/contributors.. people who won't mind having repositories named 'Factory' on their Tumbleweed installation - ie. 'not users'
However, if you're a maintainer of an OBS Project that targets users, I'd recommend the following
*ONCE I post here announcing the openSUSE Tumbleweed Project in OBS is ready*, then build your project against openSUSE_Tumbleweed and not openSUSE Factory standard or snapshot
Please do not stop building develp projects against against Factory, tumbleweed should be an additional target. First there will still be users of Factory, second thing still need to go into Factory, potentially via staging projects, and it is just more explicit if a project builds against factory.
Just because Factory is more for developers it does not mean we need to put them through extra mental hoops to make name translations everytime some looks at a project.
Later, Robert
- -- Robert Schweikert MAY THE SOURCE BE WITH YOU Public Cloud Architect LINUX rjschwei@suse.com 781-464-8147
On 04.11.2014 15:13, Robert Schweikert wrote:
*ONCE I post here announcing the openSUSE Tumbleweed Project in OBS is ready*, then build your project against openSUSE_Tumbleweed and not openSUSE Factory standard or snapshot
Please do not stop building develp projects against against Factory, tumbleweed should be an additional target. First there will still be users of Factory, second thing still need to go into Factory,
You're not helping Robert. There are no Factory users, there are only Factory developers. And they develop Tumbleweed, which is developed in Factory for Tumbleweed users.
Greetings, Stephan
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On 11/04/2014 10:11 AM, Stephan Kulow wrote:
On 04.11.2014 15:13, Robert Schweikert wrote:
*ONCE I post here announcing the openSUSE Tumbleweed Project in OBS is ready*, then build your project against openSUSE_Tumbleweed and not openSUSE Factory standard or snapshot
Please do not stop building develp projects against against Factory, tumbleweed should be an additional target. First there will still be users of Factory, second thing still need to go into Factory,
You're not helping Robert. There are no Factory users,
OK, then those people that have
baseurl=http://download.opensuse.org/factory/repo/oss/
set up as repositories should be "labeled" as what kind of users? Yes, after the merge they become tumbleweed users, but users of the factory repositories exist today, at least according to the statistics I have seen, and apparently there is a transition period of 6 months before everyone is supposed to be a tumbleweed user. But I am OK with calling them something other than Factory users.
The point here is that if Factory is turned off as a build target in devel projects and switched to Tumbleweed as a build target, as advocated in Richard's message, every person that has DEVEL_PROJECT/factory configured as a repository is immediately cut off. I consider that a very bad user experience, but that may only be me.
I am certain we have more than a handful of people that use devel:langauges:perl/factory or devel:languages:ruby/factory as repositories and disabling the factory build target in those projects and others, as advocated, might not make the users all that happy.
Therefore, I advocating to devel project maintainers to keep factory as a build target for their projects rather then turning it off as stated in Richard's message. I happen to disagree with the "stick over the head" method of implementing new stuff, but that has been well established in other threads.
there are only Factory developers. And they develop Tumbleweed, which is developed in Factory for Tumbleweed users.
Read that again and see if it is not confusing.
Anyway, so you are saying that once we have a Tumbleweed build target we can disable the :Factory build target in Devel projects and build against the Tumbleweed target and still get stuff from devel projects into Factory. Of course those that use DEVEL_PROJECT/factory as a repo are not going to be happy about the "turn off factory as a target" method, but hey one cannot make everyone happy. ;)
Anyway, its all very confusing.
Later, Robert
- -- Robert Schweikert MAY THE SOURCE BE WITH YOU Public Cloud Architect LINUX rjschwei@suse.com 781-464-8147
Am 04.11.2014 21:23, schrieb Robert Schweikert:
there are only Factory developers. And they develop Tumbleweed, which is developed in Factory for Tumbleweed users.
Read that again and see if it is not confusing.
Anyway, so you are saying that once we have a Tumbleweed build target we can disable the :Factory build target in Devel projects and build against the Tumbleweed target and still get stuff from devel projects into Factory. Of course those that use DEVEL_PROJECT/factory as a repo are not going to be happy about the "turn off factory as a target" method, but hey one cannot make everyone happy. ;)
Anyway, its all very confusing.
Really? Guess what I said when I first heard about that plans.
I suggest we use overall in OBS openSUSE_Factory_releases_Tumbleweed as repository name and create a wildcard rewrite on download.opensuse.org that matches both openSUSE_Factory and openSUSE_Tumbleweed repos to that one.
Greetings, Stephan
On Tuesday 04 November 2014 10:45:19 Richard Brown wrote:
Users who are using additional 'openSUSE_Tumbleweed' repositories from OBS are recommended to either stop using those repositories or wait a few days to ensure the build service has had time sync up and has the packages built for 'new' Tumbleweed. We'll be posting updates here once we have them.
As I understand there is reason to enable openSUSE_Tumbleweed target only for packages, missed in Factory. Am I right?
Hi there,
On Tue, 04 Nov 2014, 10:45:19 +0100, Richard Brown wrote: [...]
Then add the new repositories for Tumbleweed
# zypper ar -f -c http://download.opensuse.org/tumbleweed/repo/oss repo-oss # zypper ar -f -c http://download.opensuse.org/tumbleweed/repo/non-oss repo-non-oss # zypper ar -f -c http://download.opensuse.org/tumbleweed/repo/debug repo-debug
Then zypper dup to new Tumbleweed
so far I was testing Factory on a variety of systems. In order to have comparable (== identical) versions on my test systems, I used rsync to install from a local copy on my server.
It appears that the /tumbleweed directories are not (yet) available on any of the usual mirrors, such as ftp5.gwdg.de or ftp.halifax.rwth-aachen.de. As even rsync.opensuse.org does not offer it, I'm asking
Will Tumbleweed be available for mirrors?
If yes:
Does something need to be enabled on the .opensuse.org infrastructure so that mirrors can pick it up automatically? If yes, can someone please do that?
If no:
Why not?
TIA, cheers.
l8er manfred
ping...
On Fri, 07 Nov 2014, 11:46:49 +0100, Manfred Hollstein wrote:
Hi there,
On Tue, 04 Nov 2014, 10:45:19 +0100, Richard Brown wrote: [...]
Then add the new repositories for Tumbleweed
# zypper ar -f -c http://download.opensuse.org/tumbleweed/repo/oss repo-oss # zypper ar -f -c http://download.opensuse.org/tumbleweed/repo/non-oss repo-non-oss # zypper ar -f -c http://download.opensuse.org/tumbleweed/repo/debug repo-debug
Then zypper dup to new Tumbleweed
so far I was testing Factory on a variety of systems. In order to have comparable (== identical) versions on my test systems, I used rsync to install from a local copy on my server.
It appears that the /tumbleweed directories are not (yet) available on any of the usual mirrors, such as ftp5.gwdg.de or ftp.halifax.rwth-aachen.de. As even rsync.opensuse.org does not offer it, I'm asking
Will Tumbleweed be available for mirrors?
If yes:
Does something need to be enabled on the .opensuse.org infrastructure so that mirrors can pick it up automatically? If yes, can someone please do that?
If no:
Why not?
TIA, cheers.
l8er manfred
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