2009/12/2 jdd :

Le 02/12/2009 10:59, Rob OpenSuSE a écrit :

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Some explanation was given, I certainly was reminded of it by info provided 11.2 RC's & Final.

Probably (I guess this is meant to be best in Wiki) some notes ought to be available as we go along, so stumbling blocks aren't forgotten. But I find in past Wiki rather hard to work with, which might be improved now, may be we could "Pastebin" some notes together and add them to a thread?

release notes are great, but very short and somewhat cryptic.

we should have more practical infos, as I said replacing a programm by some info is easy, fast and usefull.

just an example: openSUSE choosed to use wodim in place of cdrecord (I don't mind here to know if it's good or not). It's possible to say in release notes: "use wodim now, there is not more cdrecord". Thats good, but how many people (even in the one who read the release notes) will remember this next time it want to burn a cd?

That was in the release notes when they did that to. They should not be any longer than they are, because they are a starting point, re-reading the info published they are very clear, though probably sax2 should have been the 3rd option, not the 2nd. Most ppl will simply use K3b or similar tool; and if you use scripts then making commands & command options configurable is quite simple. Perhaps you could cook up an extension to cnf, to recommend "alternatives"? ladm@fir:~> cnf cdrecord Program 'cdrecord' is present in package 'cdrkit-cdrtools-compat', which is installed on your system. Absolute path to 'cdrecord' is '/usr/bin/cdrecord'. Please check your $PATH variable to see whether it contains the mentioned path. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

2009/12/2 Thomas Schraitle :

Some changes are documented in the section "Software Changes from Version to Version" in chapter "Upgrading the System and System Changes" in the official openSUSE documentation.

http://www.novell.com/documentation/opensuse112/book_opensuse_reference/?pag...

It lists changes the has been made between different version. Although some parts might be incomplete, it might be useful to some. :)

This one is currently useless for someone wanting to know about 11.1 -> 11.2 it just refers to the general Bug page http://en.opensuse.org/Bugs The links on the Documentation download page at Novell.com referred by openSUSE.org also seem to be patly referring to wrong out of date links. Rob -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Rob OpenSuSE writes:

2009/12/2 Thomas Schraitle :

This one is currently useless for someone wanting to know about 11.1 -> 11.2 it just refers to the general Bug page http://en.opensuse.org/Bugs

The links on the Documentation download page at Novell.com referred by openSUSE.org also seem to be patly referring to wrong out of date links.

I'm sorry about this. Often it is just too late to populate the Changes from Version to Version Section before the authoring deadline. Thus everything I'm aware of ends in the release notes (see http://en.opensuse.org/Release_Notes). After GA, I move interesting entries from the release notes to the Section of the Manual that Thomas mentioned. -- Karl Eichwalder R&D / Documentation SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nuernberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Rob OpenSuSE writes:

Yes, but it's the website that offers the documentation for download that has issues. I initially reported it to project mail list, but it tends to be suse.de ppl who are interested, but the problem is on novell.com which is referred by opensuse.org.

If you have docs published for 11.2, it makes sense that the web pages offering their download are accurate, surely they don't have "authoring" deadlines and can be checked & fixed by webmaster?

Besides novell.com/documentation, the openSUSE project should offer download links and descriptions from opensuse.org or a dedicated project server. I think, someone is working on this (but I'm not sure). -- Karl Eichwalder R&D / Documentation SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nuernberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Fri, Dec 04, 2009 at 08:54:16AM +0100, Petr Baudis wrote:

On Wed, Dec 02, 2009 at 11:31:35AM +0100, jdd wrote:

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* better: make cdrecord a link to a bash script:

echo "cdrecord was dropped, now use wodim" wodim --help

this is a real help.

Note that this is even done sometimes, try e.g. running 'ntpdate' on your 11.2 (and probably even 11.1) system.

P.S.: And sure enough, the info printed there is actually somewhat wrong since the new command does not print the offset adjustment... I've never got around to fixing that.

I've not found a bug for with ntpdate in the summary. Looks like there is none. Then everything must be ok. ;) If it's not please consider to file one as I'm sure the maintainer of the ntp package doesn't follow this list. Lars -- Lars Müller [ˈlaː(r)z ˈmʏlɐ] Samba Team SUSE Linux, Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany

On Wed, Dec 02, 2009 at 09:59:38AM +0000, Rob OpenSuSE wrote:

2009/12/2 jdd :

file:///usr/share/doc/release-notes/openSUSE/RELEASE-NOTES.en.html#04

Some explanation was given, I certainly was reminded of it by info provided 11.2 RC's & Final.

I understood jdd's request going beyond that. He was asking to bring print out the notes when someone is trying to use the old tool.

Probably (I guess this is meant to be best in Wiki) some notes ought to be available as we go along, so stumbling blocks aren't forgotten. But I find in past Wiki rather hard to work with, which might be improved now, may be we could "Pastebin" some notes together and add them to a thread?

We are working on a new wiki structure so stuff should be easier to find in the future. I still consider a wiki the better tool for that. 'pastebins' are for rapid exchange of larger blocks of information you only need very temporarily. Cheers, Egbert. -- Egbert Eich (Res. & Dev.) SUSE LINUX Products GmbH X Window System Development Tel: 0911-740 53 0 http://www.suse.de ----------------------------------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Wed, Dec 02, 2009 at 12:19:15PM +0100, jdd wrote:

Le 02/12/2009 11:58, Egbert Eich a écrit :

but when you are debugging, you often have no network and so no wiki (and in the case I had not even graphical screen)

Yup, been there, too ;) Cheers, Egbert. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Le 02/12/2009 13:45, Cristian Rodríguez a écrit :

On 02/12/09 08:19, jdd wrote: i

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(and in the case I had not even graphical screen)

There is no need for a running X session to read a website, just use "links" :-D

did you try to read the wiki with links or w3m? I did :-((( jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://valerie.dodin.org http://news.opensuse.org/2009/04/13/people-of-opensuse-jean-daniel-dodin/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Wednesday 02 December 2009 05:43:03 Rob OpenSuSE wrote:

Perhaps Wiki enthusiasts could import from a text email based resource, and I had pastebins in mind for that purpose.

You can do that too and leave note on opensuse-wiki@opensuse.org so that wiki enthusiast can help you formatting article. The basic wiki markup that will enable you to create almost any kind of text based article is easy. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Titles: == section title == #It corresponds to <H2> html === subsection title === #It corresponds to <H3> html <H1> is reserved for article title and it is set automatically. Lists: *Item 1 *Item 2 **Item 2, subitem 1 **Item 2, subitem 2 *Item 3 Links: Normal http://en.opensuse.org/ will be set as a link automatically, but if it is very ling link like bugzilla tend to be then use single square brackets, make one space after the link and give short name. Like: [http://bugzilla.novell.com/very/long/link Short name] If you want to refer/link to another wiki page then [[article name]] will do that for you, but even if you use http://en.opensuse.org/Article_name it will work fine. General: Don't live space as a first character in a line, it will show the rest of the line in a fixed font. But if you want to show script then use tag <pre> for preformatted text, like: <pre> fixed font script commands </pre> To start new paragraph just make one line space between them. -------------------------------------------------------------------- For the rest: http://en.opensuse.org/Help:Wiki_Reference_card and the mentioned wiki mail list. We like to have more wiki contributors, and we are willing to help authors to achieve their goal, but we can't collect and write information. That would be way beyond time we have. For that purpose we are trying to create templates that people can just copy and paste into new article. Even without templates it is simple to run trough article that is already written in plain text with section titles and paragraphs and add formatting tags, but it is not collecting information, writing article, and formatting. -- Regards Rajko, -->> openSUSE Wiki Team: http://en.opensuse.org/Wiki_Team <<-- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Wed, Dec 02, 2009 at 11:19:38AM +0000, Rob OpenSuSE wrote:

2009/12/2 Lars Müller :

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On Wed, Dec 02, 2009 at 09:47:01AM +0100, jdd wrote:

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Write an article in the wiki.  That's why all the en,de,.*.openSUSE.org are there and have the login option.  Create a user and start.

Tried to do Wiki in past... just could not get on with it. Has it been made simpler in last year?

I consider it ok. It uses the well known MediaWiki software which is used by Wikipedia too. And therefore there is a bunch of documentation and howtos available. It's not like working in a local editor but it's working very well to get stuff published in a reasonable time. Lars -- Lars Müller [ˈlaː(r)z ˈmʏlɐ] Samba Team SUSE Linux, Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany

This is the Wikipedia who have large loss of Editors, and articles about people being annoyed having spent many hours time on learning the fiddly formatting, submitting an article only to find someone deleted it a little later?

This is a political problem on Wikipedia that has virtually zero to do with teh Wiki syntax or editing tools. C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

2009/12/2 Clayton :

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This is the Wikipedia who have large loss of Editors, and articles about people being annoyed having spent many hours time on learning the fiddly formatting, submitting an article only to find someone deleted it a little later?

This is a political problem on Wikipedia that has virtually zero to do with teh Wiki syntax or editing tools.

No it's a fundamental problem with Wiki's; someone else can re-write history, so it's often not seeingly a very useful format for the information I'm interested in. Often that is best done by "dumps" of logs and stuff that Google finds. In general for problems or answering forum questions, Google finds mail list stuff; possibly other distro's have more transparency than we do. Lots of ppl do articles on openSUSE.org and there's a problem figuring out sometimes, when they wrote it, and which releases it's relevant to, with not much to go on sometimes. 2009/12/2 Stefan Seyfried :

On Wed, 2 Dec 2009 11:47:23 +0000 Rob OpenSuSE wrote:

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Has it been made simpler since a year ago?  There was a thread then, about learning "Wiki" being time consuming for hard pressed volunteer testers.

There is also an openSUSE Wiki team. If you have good content, just paste it as plain text into the wiki and ask around, you will find volunteers who will help with formatting etc.

If the content is crap, somebody of course might just delete it, rightfully so ;-)

What's "crap" to one person, may just be vital detail to someone else. As you can see above, I'd rather have something more permanent and Google-able. Rob -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

...

Tried to do Wiki in past...  just could not get on with it.  Has it been made simpler in last year?

I consider it ok.  It uses the well known MediaWiki software which is used by Wikipedia too.  And therefore there is a bunch of documentation and howtos available.

It's not like working in a local editor but it's working very well to get stuff published in a reasonable time.

MediaWiki syntax is not hard. You don't even really need to know the Wiki syntax to get your text into the Wiki page. At the top of the edit box there are a few basic buttons that add bold, headings etc. It's pretty obvious what's what within a few mins of editing. If youget some of the formatting syntax wrong, someone else will see it and tidy it up. That's how Wikis work. If you're really finding Wiki syntax that hard to use, then create/edit your document in OpenOffice.org Writer and export as Wiki. You get a plain text file with Wiki markup... you copy paste that text into the Wiki edit window and you're done. C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org