Am Samstag, 24. April 2010 11:35:05 schrieb Marcus Meissner:

On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 10:19:46AM +0200, Karsten König wrote:

...

Hello,

I was wondering if there is a definite decision about how to go on forward with the seperation of Contrib and mainline Factory.

If I remember correctly Contrib was the place to submit stuff to as normal contributor to openSUSE, now Factory is open for everybody to submit stuff, based on reputation, skills and whatnot. So what's the future of Contrib now, this looks like a limbo state to me.

Also does openSUSE try to be as inclusive as debian now (everything in one big repository) or seperate atleast into Factory and Contrib? Or even further with repositories like network:utilities, games, GNOME:Extra, KDE:Community etc. which currently have a 'rolling release' way of life.

I can't come up with a big weighing pro for any of the possibilities, but I just can't say what model is currently followed.

Contrib is mostly a place for more experimental and not so easily maintained packages in my eyes, while in the openSUSE distribution we can offer at least 18 months of security support and bugfixing.

This is all evolutionary driven too, there are no real rules or set goals for inclusion in Factory, Contrib or various repositories.

Both sound somewhat opposite, you are on the security team, doesn't sound evolutionary package location sound somewhat scary to you? If I am somewhat free where to place my 'insert cheap php bulletin board here' and shove it into Factory it might turn out a security nightmare. So as you wrote Contrib would be a much better place. Also I don't know if no real rules is a good thing to have here, the user doesn't know where to expect a package (sure we have s.o.o/search) he will add tons of repos with no defined purpose.

rolling releases are difficult for core repositories like Factory, but more suited to leaf package repositories, like games, newest GNOME/KDE, e.g.

e.g. the "games" repo is more up to date than Factory with regards to games and contains a way larger selection.

Yep I also like this approach, but how to place it properly? for example searching for tunnel software some is placed in network:utilities other in security. I find the current non-organisation not very clear Regards, Karsten -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On 04/26/2010 11:13 AM, Ludwig Nussel wrote:

Karsten König wrote:

...

I was wondering if there is a definite decision about how to go on forward with the seperation of Contrib and mainline Factory.

If I remember correctly Contrib was the place to submit stuff to as normal contributor to openSUSE, now Factory is open for everybody to submit stuff, based on reputation, skills and whatnot. So what's the future of Contrib now, this looks like a limbo state to me.

Ack. Contrib doesn't make sense to me either.

It did make sense when each package in Factory had to have a maintainer from Novell. What I propose is the following: a) branch o:F:C into o:11.3:C when Factory is branched into 11.3 b) once Factory is open for new packages, find devel projects for all packages in Contrib, move them there and send requests for inclusion Factory c) once B is finished, kill o:F:C and maintain only forked version of Contrib (+properly communicate the changes so people will be aware they can (and should) push their packages into Factory) Comments? -- Best Regards / S pozdravom, Pavol RUSNAK SUSE LINUX, s.r.o openSUSE Boosters Team Lihovarska 1060/12 PGP 0xA6917144 19000 Praha 9, CR prusnak[at]suse.cz http://www.suse.cz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On 05/03/2010 02:46 PM, Dominique Leuenberger wrote:

All in all sounds good: just won't we put too much load on the autobuild team? From all my submits it seems this is a rather small team reviewing all the SR's to Factory (in oS:F:C so far the 'maintainer' was assigned full rights to update his package at any point in time. in oS:F this is / has not been the case so far and every submission went through a screening).

Yes, 3 people are really small number.

This should be taken into consideration when changing this.

Also there is another thing we should think about (raised by Petr Uzel). Right now we have 2 exceptions (chromium and v8) in Contrib and we allow version updates even in branched repos. We would need to apply the same logic for Factory too (of course, we'll try to keep this number as small as possible).

Dominique

-- Best Regards / S pozdravom, Pavol RUSNAK SUSE LINUX, s.r.o openSUSE Boosters Team Lihovarska 1060/12 PGP 0xA6917144 19000 Praha 9, CR prusnak[at]suse.cz http://www.suse.cz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 9:30 AM, Petr Uzel wrote:

On Mon, May 03, 2010 at 02:12:42PM +0200, Pavol Rusnak wrote:

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On 04/26/2010 11:13 AM, Ludwig Nussel wrote:

...

Karsten König wrote:

...

I was wondering if there is a definite decision about how to go on forward with the seperation of Contrib and mainline Factory.

If I remember correctly Contrib was the place to submit stuff to as normal contributor to openSUSE, now Factory is open for everybody to submit stuff, based on reputation, skills and whatnot. So what's the future of Contrib now, this looks like a limbo state to me.

Ack. Contrib doesn't make sense to me either.

It did make sense when each package in Factory had to have a maintainer from Novell.

What I propose is the following:

a) branch o:F:C into o:11.3:C when Factory is branched into 11.3

b) once Factory is open for new packages, find devel projects for all packages in Contrib, move them there and send requests for inclusion Factory

In general, I agree. But IMO this step should be done in cooperation with individual maintainers, because: 1. We don't want to enforce maintainers to have their packages in   Factory against their will. 2. That way we could identify abandoned packages (I fear there are   some in Contrib).

...

c) once B is finished, kill o:F:C and maintain only forked version of Contrib (+properly communicate the changes so people will be aware they can (and should) push their packages into Factory)

Petr

I also thought packages could only be added to factory if there was room on the DVD? Or is that a separate decision? If so, how is it tracked? Greg -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Dnia poniedziałek, 3 maja 2010 o 15:30:29 Petr Uzel napisał(a):

On Mon, May 03, 2010 at 02:12:42PM +0200, Pavol Rusnak wrote:

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On 04/26/2010 11:13 AM, Ludwig Nussel wrote:

...

Karsten König wrote:

...

I was wondering if there is a definite decision about how to go on forward with the seperation of Contrib and mainline Factory.

If I remember correctly Contrib was the place to submit stuff to as normal contributor to openSUSE, now Factory is open for everybody to submit stuff, based on reputation, skills and whatnot. So what's the future of Contrib now, this looks like a limbo state to me.

Ack. Contrib doesn't make sense to me either.

It did make sense when each package in Factory had to have a maintainer from Novell.

What I propose is the following:

a) branch o:F:C into o:11.3:C when Factory is branched into 11.3

b) once Factory is open for new packages, find devel projects for all packages in Contrib, move them there and send requests for inclusion Factory

In general, I agree. But IMO this step should be done in cooperation with individual maintainers, because: 1. We don't want to enforce maintainers to have their packages in Factory against their will.

If _maintainer_ pushed some package to o:F:C, why he wouldn't like push it to factory?

2. That way we could identify abandoned packages (I fear there are some in Contrib).

...

c) once B is finished, kill o:F:C and maintain only forked version of Contrib (+properly communicate the changes so people will be aware they can (and should) push their packages into Factory)

Petr

-- Petr Uzel, openSUSE Boosters Team IRC: ptr_uzl @ freenode

For me, Pavol's idea is really good. Many more packages will be easily available from one repository. And here is the end for some questions like: "which repo does contain foo package? And bar package? Haw to add it?" -- Pozdrawiam / Best regards, Mariusz Fik, openSUSE Community Member

Am Montag, 3. Mai 2010 18:58:19 schrieb Daniel Fuhrmann:

Am Monday 03 May 2010 18:47:12 schrieb Mariusz Fik:

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Dnia poniedziałek, 3 maja 2010 o 15:30:29 Petr Uzel napisał(a):

...

On Mon, May 03, 2010 at 02:12:42PM +0200, Pavol Rusnak wrote:

...

On 04/26/2010 11:13 AM, Ludwig Nussel wrote:

...

Karsten König wrote:

...

I was wondering if there is a definite decision about how to go on forward with the seperation of Contrib and mainline Factory.

If I remember correctly Contrib was the place to submit stuff to as normal contributor to openSUSE, now Factory is open for everybody to submit stuff, based on reputation, skills and whatnot. So what's the future of Contrib now, this looks like a limbo state to me.

Ack. Contrib doesn't make sense to me either.

It did make sense when each package in Factory had to have a maintainer from Novell.

What I propose is the following:

a) branch o:F:C into o:11.3:C when Factory is branched into 11.3

b) once Factory is open for new packages, find devel projects for all packages in Contrib, move them there and send requests for inclusion Factory

In general, I agree. But IMO this step should be done in cooperation with individual maintainers, because: 1. We don't want to enforce maintainers to have their packages in

Factory against their will.

If _maintainer_ pushed some package to o:F:C, why he wouldn't like push it to factory?

...

2. That way we could identify abandoned packages (I fear there are

some in Contrib).

...

c) once B is finished, kill o:F:C and maintain only forked version of Contrib (+properly communicate the changes so people will be aware they can (and should) push their packages into Factory)

Petr

-- Petr Uzel, openSUSE Boosters Team IRC: ptr_uzl @ freenode

For me, Pavol's idea is really good. Many more packages will be easily available from one repository. And here is the end for some questions like: "which repo does contain foo package? And bar package? Haw to add it?"

Why not freeze contrib with the released version? If one need a newer version he could still go to any buildservice package.

According to http://en.opensuse.org/Contrib that's already the case and how I know it, I don't know if it is enforced but I guess so.

So you have only: - official (non)-oss and - contrib repo. And the aim has to be include as many packages as possible to contrib and maybe keep factory/released oss-repo as small as possible. So normal user has big choice with few repos.

I don't see the advantage of that despite Factory beeing very lean, as soon as one activates Contrib he will tap into that huge reservoir and your idea looks like propably everybody will be doing that. I better like the idea of factory beeing a quality border where there are stricter requirements, but that might lead to a huge Factory, which can be seen as a success then.

This is my user pov.

Daniel

This is my user pov as well =) Karsten -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On 05/03/2010 07:13 PM, Petr Uzel wrote:

On Mon, May 03, 2010 at 06:47:12PM +0200, Mariusz Fik wrote:

...

Dnia poniedziałek, 3 maja 2010 o 15:30:29 Petr Uzel napisał(a):

[...]

...

...

...

b) once Factory is open for new packages, find devel projects for all packages in Contrib, move them there and send requests for inclusion Factory

In general, I agree. But IMO this step should be done in cooperation with individual maintainers, because: 1. We don't want to enforce maintainers to have their packages in Factory against their will.

If _maintainer_ pushed some package to o:F:C, why he wouldn't like push it to factory?

I don't know of any reason why somebody wouldn't want to move his/her package(s) from oS:F:C to Factory.

I would simply prefer if the maintainers _themselves_ found proper devel project for their packages and sent the SRs for inclusion to Factory.

Petr

-- Petr Uzel, openSUSE Boosters Team IRC: ptr_uzl @ freenode

I moved lilypond to multimedia:apps and then on to factory because of my pet package rosegarden4 but I also co maintain contrib bacula which already has a devel project which links to contrib but I cannot test it properly, that's up to the other maintainer and I wouldn't want to move it to factory because I'm concentrating on matters mutimedia and bacula is one hell of a package to even update, it's on 5.0.0 and 5.0.2 has just been released, 5.0.1 wouldn't configure let alone build. My opinion is contrib is a good single repository for users to get packages that are not in the main repo, if only devel projects existed for users to get such packages from they would end up with a list of repositories a mile long, If only one click installs are made without adding the repository, how is the user to know when a new package is available. openSUSE needs a non kde/gnome community repository and thats a good role for contrib. Regards Dave P -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Michal Vyskocil wrote:

0) Are the maintenance rules for openSUSE same as in Contrib? For instance can I update a (a leaf one, but Contrib is intended for leaf packages only) package as a bugfix? Because as I remember that was the biggest reason for Contrib after opening the Factory.

You can update packages in Factory all day long (minus temporary freeze before branching a new product). Maintenance is an issue only if a package gets included in a product. Having a package on a products means greater responsibility of course. Those responsibilities are a result of user expectations on openSUSE. They need to be discussed separately from the technical requirements for a Factory checkin. There's no excuse for avoiding Factory just to bypass openSUSE packaging policy IMO. cu Ludwig -- (o_ Ludwig Nussel //\ V_/_ http://www.suse.de/ SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nuernberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Tue, May 04, 2010 at 11:20:58AM +0200, Michal Vyskocil wrote:

On Tuesday 04 May 2010 10:53:23 am Ludwig Nussel wrote:

...

Michal Vyskocil wrote: [...] Having a package on a products means greater responsibility of course.

Yes and this is exactly why I asked if maintenance rules were not changed (and I did not catch that change somehow). The main reason why I have some packages in Contrib and not in Factory is because I don't want to take this level of responsibility for maintenance. I'm willing to provide the "best effort", but that's all from my side.

So if there are a plans to merge Contrib into Factory, maintainers should be very aware about that responsibility. And it's very curious to me, that noone thought about future maintenance, when they propose a merge.

The level of responsibility and strictness in Contrib is more or less the same as in Factory. As for the version updates in Contrib, the situation is that the version updates are not allowed (after the repository is frozen), unless explicitly allowed by the oS:11.X:C maintainers. As far as I understand, it is the same as in Factory (e.g. KDE 4.3.1->4.3.4 update). Petr -- Petr Uzel, openSUSE Boosters Team IRC: ptr_uzl @ freenode

On 05/04/2010 03:31 PM, Ludwig Nussel wrote:

Well, I don't watch Contrib so I can only judge from random samples. dropbox for example is in contrib but was rejected for Factory because it claims to be GPL while secretly downloading and executing a binary only blob. Such a snaky package better shouldn't be in any sane repo IMHO.

Dropbox was not rejected because of that behaviour (it is not secretly downloading binary blob, user is asked for this operation). It was rejected because of the license problem (files claiming they are GPLv3 while license stated GPLv2 or vice-versa). -- Best Regards / S pozdravom, Pavol RUSNAK SUSE LINUX, s.r.o openSUSE Boosters Team Lihovarska 1060/12 PGP 0xA6917144 19000 Praha 9, CR prusnak[at]suse.cz http://www.suse.cz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On 05/04/2010 12:16 PM, Vincent Untz wrote:

Le lundi 03 mai 2010, à 14:12 +0200, Pavol Rusnak a écrit :

...

On 04/26/2010 11:13 AM, Ludwig Nussel wrote:

...

Karsten König wrote:

...

I was wondering if there is a definite decision about how to go on forward with the seperation of Contrib and mainline Factory.

If I remember correctly Contrib was the place to submit stuff to as normal contributor to openSUSE, now Factory is open for everybody to submit stuff, based on reputation, skills and whatnot. So what's the future of Contrib now, this looks like a limbo state to me.

Ack. Contrib doesn't make sense to me either.

It did make sense when each package in Factory had to have a maintainer from Novell.

What I propose is the following:

a) branch o:F:C into o:11.3:C when Factory is branched into 11.3

b) once Factory is open for new packages, find devel projects for all packages in Contrib, move them there and send requests for inclusion Factory

c) once B is finished, kill o:F:C and maintain only forked version of Contrib (+properly communicate the changes so people will be aware they can (and should) push their packages into Factory)

Comments?

I like the plan (I've been pushing GNOME stuff from Contrib to Factory this cycle already ;-)). That being said, at least in GNOME, there are some packages that we don't feel comfortable integrating in Factory yet, but we still want to make them available easily. And we use Contrib for that.

Are there other people with a similar need? If no, we'll just find another way :-)

I agree to what Michael Vyskocil and you said. I have a small number of packages in Contrib which are useful for people but I cannot give them the same level of maintenance as I (would) do for stuff in Factory. E.g. that includes abook which was dropped from Factory a while ago because it doesn't progress anymore (who cares btw). So at some point people (from within Novell) dropped a lot of packages in favor of OBS and _even_ Contrib. Now we are turning around? Nothing really changed since then. It's also not obvious to people which packages in Factory end up in which product. So my current understanding is that everything in Factory ends up as official package in the FTP tree and needs to be maintained properly. For Contrib I would expect a bit loose rules as I understood it's "community supported" and doesn't get the same level of maintenance necessarily. If that changed or if I understood wrong please let us know. Wolfgang -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

* Wolfgang Rosenauer [05-04-10 06:38]:

I agree to what Michael Vyskocil and you said. I have a small number of packages in Contrib which are useful for people but I cannot give them the same level of maintenance as I (would) do for stuff in Factory. E.g. that includes abook which was dropped from Factory a while ago because it doesn't progress anymore (who cares btw).

I care, that you provide abook. Thankyou. Have been using abook for many years, and mutt. I see little functionality missing in my usage. Thanks again, -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org