[opensuse-factory] Timeline and roadmap V2
Hi all, As you know we had a week-long meeting in Nuremberg. Quite a few of the things we've been working on (openQA, OBS workflow etc) were shared by now. Besides discussing features, we scheduled our work. In the previous thread on $SUBJECT, Simon noted that going for a release in November seemed a far smarter compromise between the benefits of releasing and getting some improvements in our tool chain than skipping a release. Most of the team agreed on this right away and we'd like to go for that. However. This does not mean the initial idea of doing a more 'relaxed' release is off the table. Planning software development is hard, planning experimentation (like the staging projects we are toying with) is impossible so we can not predict when we will be done. This means that we still intend to take those of you who stepped forward to help out with the release up on their offer. The exact nature of what we release is still to be determined and we'd like to make a more final decision on how much effort we can and will put in in August. So far it is sure that we would need some volunteer to keep eye on Factory and release milestones at least till then. So, for now, this will be a 'community release'. This might mean less QA but also no security updates provided by SUSE! Especially if it comes to the latter case we should communicate this carefully to our users as it will be more like a slightly more stabilized milestone than a successor to openSUSE 13.1. How to call it, how to communicate and what exactly it will look like - August. When exactly we will be fully back to working on Factory, releasing milestones, and working on the release we will hopefully be able to determine in August as well. Thoughts? The openSUSE Team -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 30 January 2014 13:12, Michal Hrusecky <mhrusecky@suse.cz> wrote:
Hi all,
As you know we had a week-long meeting in Nuremberg. Quite a few of the things we've been working on (openQA, OBS workflow etc) were shared by now. Besides discussing features, we scheduled our work.
In the previous thread on $SUBJECT, Simon noted that going for a release in November seemed a far smarter compromise between the benefits of releasing and getting some improvements in our tool chain than skipping a release. Most of the team agreed on this right away and we'd like to go for that.
+1 - I like this idea. I think our releases around November often feel 'smoother' than our others that often have big vacation and other busy periods mixed in with them. Personally I'd like to see us go for a 12 month release cycle and this seems like a good opportunity to suggest it.
However. This does not mean the initial idea of doing a more 'relaxed' release is off the table. Planning software development is hard, planning experimentation (like the staging projects we are toying with) is impossible so we can not predict when we will be done. This means that we still intend to take those of you who stepped forward to help out with the release up on their offer. The exact nature of what we release is still to be determined and we'd like to make a more final decision on how much effort we can and will put in in August. So far it is sure that we would need some volunteer to keep eye on Factory and release milestones at least till then.
I like and fully support the idea on the idea of involving more 'non-openSUSE Team@SUSE members' (I'm purposefully avoiding the use of the word 'community' as you're community members too). I think having our next release in November is a great opportunity for everyone to have their cake and eat it - the openSUSE Team@SUSE get the time they need/want to work on things like openQA and OBS, and everyone else gets an opportunity to step up and still produce regular releases for our distribution.
So, for now, this will be a 'community release'. This might mean less QA but also no security updates provided by SUSE! Especially if it comes to the latter case we should communicate this carefully to our users as it will be more like a slightly more stabilized milestone than a successor to openSUSE 13.1. How to call it, how to communicate and what exactly it will look like - August.
A very strong - 1 from me - Why would the SUSE Maintenance Team not be able to support a single openSUSE release in 2014? They're not going to be involved in the work the openSUSE Team@SUSE are proposing, and up until this decision for a November 2014 release is final, they should be planning and prepared for a standard 8 month cycle release in May.. I don't like the message this suggestion gives off, that a release led by someone other than the openSUSE Team@SUSE would somehow be a 'second-class' release Just because your team want to focus on something different for the next months I don't think that should be allowed to have a disproportionate impact on our project. On the contrary, I think this situation should be used to further empower our contributors who aren't paid by SUSE to work on the distribution to have a bigger part in the release process.
When exactly we will be fully back to working on Factory, releasing milestones, and working on the release we will hopefully be able to determine in August as well.
While I understand the need for your team to defer any final decision on their availability until August, I think the reality of mentoring and 'spinning up' an increased involvement of non-openSUSE Team@SUSE members in the release process means we need to assume that your teams involvement in a November 2014 would be 'reduced' and therefore steps should be made to start preparing our new volunteers in the release process now. If we leave too many decisions to August, the likelihood of being able to teach people what they need to know and get a good release out in Nov 2014 is going to be reduced.
Thoughts? The openSUSE Team -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Thu, Jan 30, 2014 at 01:12:17PM +0100, Michal Hrusecky wrote:
So, for now, this will be a 'community release'. This might mean less QA but also no security updates provided by SUSE!
What? That's not something the openSUSE team can decide, right? How are they even involved in security releases? Confused, Michael. -- Michael Schroeder mls@suse.de SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF Jeff Hawn, HRB 16746 AG Nuernberg main(_){while(_=~getchar())putchar(~_-1/(~(_|32)/13*2-11)*13);} -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Hey, On 30.01.2014 13:12, Michal Hrusecky wrote:
So, for now, this will be a 'community release'. This might mean less QA but also no security updates provided by SUSE!
Does this essentially mean that SUSE doesn’t want to participate in the openSUSE release anymore? Henne -- Henne Vogelsang http://www.opensuse.org Everybody has a plan, until they get hit. - Mike Tyson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Thu, Jan 30, 2014 at 02:06:36PM +0100, Henne Vogelsang wrote:
Hey,
On 30.01.2014 13:12, Michal Hrusecky wrote:
So, for now, this will be a 'community release'. This might mean less QA but also no security updates provided by SUSE!
Does this essentially mean that SUSE doesn?t want to participate in the openSUSE release anymore?
As Michal can't speak for all of SUSE, maybe it means that the openSUSE team does not want to participate in the openSUSE release anymore? ;-) Micha. -- Michael Schroeder mls@suse.de SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF Jeff Hawn, HRB 16746 AG Nuernberg main(_){while(_=~getchar())putchar(~_-1/(~(_|32)/13*2-11)*13);} -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
* Michal Hrusecky <mhrusecky@suse.cz> [2014-01-30 13:12]:
However. This does not mean the initial idea of doing a more 'relaxed' release is off the table. Planning software development is hard, planning experimentation (like the staging projects we are toying with) is impossible so we can not predict when we will be done. This means that we still intend to
That's all fine, but why again do we need a "half-release" before we are able and ready to make fully supported releases again?
take those of you who stepped forward to help out with the release up on their offer. The exact nature of what we release is still to be determined and we'd like to make a more final decision on how much effort we can and will put in in August. So far it is sure that we would need some volunteer to keep eye on Factory and release milestones at least till then.
So, for now, this will be a 'community release'. This might mean less QA but also no security updates provided by SUSE! Especially if it comes to the latter case we should communicate this carefully to our users as it will be more like a slightly more stabilized milestone than a successor to openSUSE 13.1. How to call it, how to communicate and what exactly it will look like - August.
When exactly we will be fully back to working on Factory, releasing milestones, and working on the release we will hopefully be able to determine in August as well.
Thoughts?
I think putting out such a release with lower quality and no support has little value and will backfire no matter how you communicate it. If it takes some time to reorganize infrastructure and we have a much longer cycle then so be it. We can communicate that rather than putting out something which isn't up to our usual standards, cannot replace 13.1 (without security updates/support) and is likely to be perceived negatively. Besides, there still is Tumbleweed for those who want newer packages. -- Guido Berhoerster -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Richard Brown - 13:51 30.01.14 wrote:
So, for now, this will be a 'community release'. This might mean less QA but also no security updates provided by SUSE! Especially if it comes to the latter case we should communicate this carefully to our users as it will be more like a slightly more stabilized milestone than a successor to openSUSE 13.1. How to call it, how to communicate and what exactly it will look like - August.
A very strong - 1 from me - Why would the SUSE Maintenance Team not be able to support a single openSUSE release in 2014?
Well, we just haven't discussed it with them yet, so we can't promise anything on behalf of them. We are not saying that there will be support and we are not saying that there will be not. Simply it's too far and uncertain. Depends on the final state of things we will release and I guess there will be some discussion about what to do next by that time and we will have to talk to them about the plans...
When exactly we will be fully back to working on Factory, releasing milestones, and working on the release we will hopefully be able to determine in August as well.
While I understand the need for your team to defer any final decision on their availability until August, I think the reality of mentoring and 'spinning up' an increased involvement of non-openSUSE Team@SUSE members in the release process means we need to assume that your teams involvement in a November 2014 would be 'reduced' and therefore steps should be made to start preparing our new volunteers in the release process now. If we leave too many decisions to August, the likelihood of being able to teach people what they need to know and get a good release out in Nov 2014 is going to be reduced.
Yes, definitely. We cannot let Factory rot. We would need some volunteers in the meantime to start helping with Factory, making sure everything is Ok, pinging people, releasing milestones and stuff. I guess coolo or scarabeus will have more info about this part :-) -- Michal HRUSECKY SUSE LINUX, s.r.o. openSUSE Team Lihovarska 1060/12 PGP 0xFED656F6 19000 Praha 9 mhrusecky[at]suse.cz Czech Republic http://michal.hrusecky.net http://www.suse.cz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Donnerstag, 30. Januar 2014, 14:15:46 wrote Michal Hrusecky:
Richard Brown - 13:51 30.01.14 wrote:
So, for now, this will be a 'community release'. This might mean less QA but also no security updates provided by SUSE! Especially if it comes to the latter case we should communicate this carefully to our users as it will be more like a slightly more stabilized milestone than a successor to openSUSE 13.1. How to call it, how to communicate and what exactly it will look like - August.
A very strong - 1 from me - Why would the SUSE Maintenance Team not be able to support a single openSUSE release in 2014?
Well, we just haven't discussed it with them yet, so we can't promise anything on behalf of them.
You have not discussed it with it yet, but you harm their work and their reputation deeply by announcing such things? I do not have the right public words to communicate my feelings right now .... Seriously, think again about what you just wrote and how others could see this. Esp. the others how put a lot of effort for building up great reputation. If anyone would take your announcement as seriouse openSUSE project announcement you have destroyed all of this now :( -- Adrian Schroeter email: adrian@suse.de SUSE LINUX GmbH, GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer, HRB 21284 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstraße 5 90409 Nürnberg Germany -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Michal Hrusecky - 13:12 30.01.14 wrote:
So, for now, this will be a 'community release'. This might mean less QA but also no security updates provided by SUSE! Especially if it comes to the latter case we should communicate this carefully to our users as it will be more like a slightly more stabilized milestone than a successor to openSUSE 13.1. How to call it, how to communicate and what exactly it will look like - August.
Ok, a follow up, just got some update, we talked with the right people and no matter when and what we release there *WILL* be support form SUSE security and maintenance. So really sorry for all the confusion, should have clarified/asked more around before sending this, whole point was just not to make promises on behalf of somebody else. -- Michal HRUSECKY SUSE LINUX, s.r.o. openSUSE Team Lihovarska 1060/12 PGP 0xFED656F6 19000 Praha 9 mhrusecky[at]suse.cz Czech Republic http://michal.hrusecky.net http://www.suse.cz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Hi, sorry for the cross posting...
So, for now, this will be a 'community release'. This might mean less QA but also no security updates provided by SUSE! Especially if it comes to the latter case we should communicate this carefully to our users as it will be more like a slightly more stabilized milestone than a successor to openSUSE 13.1. How to call it, how to communicate and what exactly it will look like - August. A very strong - 1 from me - Why would the SUSE Maintenance Team not be able to support a single openSUSE release in 2014? They're not going to be involved in the work the openSUSE Team@SUSE are proposing, and up until this decision for a November 2014 release is final, they should be planning and prepared for a standard 8 month cycle release in May..
Since no one knows for sure how Factory is going to look like there are several possible solutions to what we (project) call "Release". If in November we (project) have something like a successor of 13.1, there must be maintenance updates. It doesn't matter who works on it. Users need the updates. If we (project) end up publishing just an "enhanced snapshot of Factory" (meaning that we succeeded in keeping Factory usable), it might mean that no extra update repo will be needed since Factory will receive the updates anyways. In August (the latest) those working on the Community Release and Factory should have a clear idea of how the "Release" will look like. Saludos -- Agustin Benito Bethencourt openSUSE Team Lead at SUSE abebe@suse.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 30 January 2014 14:28, Michal Hrusecky <mhrusecky@suse.cz> wrote:
Michal Hrusecky - 13:12 30.01.14 wrote:
So, for now, this will be a 'community release'. This might mean less QA but also no security updates provided by SUSE! Especially if it comes to the latter case we should communicate this carefully to our users as it will be more like a slightly more stabilized milestone than a successor to openSUSE 13.1. How to call it, how to communicate and what exactly it will look like - August.
Ok, a follow up, just got some update, we talked with the right people and no matter when and what we release there *WILL* be support form SUSE security and maintenance.
So really sorry for all the confusion, should have clarified/asked more around before sending this, whole point was just not to make promises on behalf of somebody else.
Thank you for the clarification. I do not want to belabour the point, but I would strongly recommend that in the future, any teams involved are spoken to before their commitment (or lack thereof) to anything is spoken for by the openSUSE Team. I can only imagine how I would feel if was in the Maintenance Teams position, and I have the deepest sympathy for the discomfort this thread might have brought them. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-- Benjamin Brunner <bbrunner@suse.com>, SUSE LINUX, Maintenance SUSE LINUX GmbH, GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer, HRB 21284 (AG Nürnberg)
On 1/30/2014 at 03:14 PM, in message <CAA0b23yV_hB8-Jr0Dnauqh9NgRP7jFC+5=1oqQPjJprAy8YnRQ@mail.gmail.com>, Richard Brown <RBrownCCB@opensuse.org> wrote: On 30 January 2014 14:28, Michal Hrusecky <mhrusecky@suse.cz> wrote: Michal Hrusecky - 13:12 30.01.14 wrote: So, for now, this will be a 'community release'. This might mean less QA but also no security updates provided by SUSE! Especially if it comes to the latter case we should communicate this carefully to our users as it will be more like a slightly more stabilized milestone than a successor to openSUSE 13.1. How to call it, how to communicate and what exactly it will look like - August.
Ok, a follow up, just got some update, we talked with the right people and no matter when and what we release there *WILL* be support form SUSE security and maintenance.
So really sorry for all the confusion, should have clarified/asked more around before sending this, whole point was just not to make promises on behalf of somebody else.
Thank you for the clarification.
I do not want to belabour the point, but I would strongly recommend that in the future, any teams involved are spoken to before their commitment (or lack thereof) to anything is spoken for by the openSUSE Team. I can only imagine how I would feel if was in the Maintenance Teams position, and I have the deepest sympathy for the discomfort this thread might have brought them.
Thanks Richard, you said everything, I wanted to say. Greets Benni -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Thu, Jan 30, 2014 at 01:12:17PM +0100, Michal Hrusecky wrote:
Hi all,
As you know we had a week-long meeting in Nuremberg. Quite a few of the things we've been working on (openQA, OBS workflow etc) were shared by now. Besides discussing features, we scheduled our work.
In the previous thread on $SUBJECT, Simon noted that going for a release in November seemed a far smarter compromise between the benefits of releasing and getting some improvements in our tool chain than skipping a release. Most of the team agreed on this right away and we'd like to go for that.
However. This does not mean the initial idea of doing a more 'relaxed' release is off the table. Planning software development is hard, planning experimentation (like the staging projects we are toying with) is impossible so we can not predict when we will be done. This means that we still intend to take those of you who stepped forward to help out with the release up on their offer. The exact nature of what we release is still to be determined and we'd like to make a more final decision on how much effort we can and will put in in August. So far it is sure that we would need some volunteer to keep eye on Factory and release milestones at least till then.
So, for now, this will be a 'community release'. This might mean less QA but also no security updates provided by SUSE! Especially if it comes to the latter case we should communicate this carefully to our users as it will be more like a slightly more stabilized milestone than a successor to openSUSE 13.1. How to call it, how to communicate and what exactly it will look like - August.
When exactly we will be fully back to working on Factory, releasing milestones, and working on the release we will hopefully be able to determine in August as well.
Thoughts? The openSUSE Team
Dear openSUSE Team, I really appreciate your hard work on this great distro. However please learn how to talk with us! The overall tone and a level of confussiness in your recent communication is not very funny at all. So feel free to propose your ideas and your arguments to us. But don't tell us that this will be done because we have discussed that in whatever meeting room. Your concerned community
On 01/30/2014 01:12 PM, Michal Hrusecky wrote:
As you know we had a week-long meeting in Nuremberg.
Hi, we actually don't... Neither we know who is "we". This whole post is full of confusion and pronouns linking to something unknown for many of us. Could you write this again with more care, please?
Quite a few of the things we've been working on (openQA, OBS workflow etc) were shared by now.
Shared with whom? And they are not going to, or what did you want to tell us?
Besides discussing features, we scheduled our work.
Whose work? What work?
In the previous thread on $SUBJECT,
Which thread? Where? Link?
So, for now, this will be a 'community release'. This might mean less QA but also no security updates provided by SUSE! Especially if it comes to the latter case we should communicate this carefully to our users as it will be more like a slightly more stabilized milestone than a successor to openSUSE 13.1. How to call it, how to communicate and what exactly it will look like - August.
Parse error on the whole paragraph. Pardon me? August? August Rush?
When exactly we will be fully back to working on Factory, releasing milestones, and working on the release we will hopefully be able to determine in August as well.
Thoughts?
Yes, can anybody explain us what is going on? Thank you.
The openSUSE Team
The Slaby Team -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
I have to agree with Jiri, this announcement is mildly confusing at best. I would appreciate some clarity. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Thu, Jan 30, 2014 at 02:06:27PM +0100, Michael Schroeder wrote:
On Thu, Jan 30, 2014 at 01:12:17PM +0100, Michal Hrusecky wrote:
So, for now, this will be a 'community release'. This might mean less QA but also no security updates provided by SUSE!
What? That's not something the openSUSE team can decide, right? How are they even involved in security releases?
They are not. The 2 releases + 2 months of SUSE maintenance and security updates still stands. Ciao, Marcus -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2014-01-30 14:08, Michael Schroeder wrote:
On Thu, Jan 30, 2014 at 02:06:36PM +0100, Henne Vogelsang wrote:
Hey,
On 30.01.2014 13:12, Michal Hrusecky wrote:
So, for now, this will be a 'community release'. This might mean less QA but also no security updates provided by SUSE!
Does this essentially mean that SUSE doesn?t want to participate in the openSUSE release anymore?
As Michal can't speak for all of SUSE, maybe it means that the openSUSE team does not want to participate in the openSUSE release anymore?
;-)
I don't understand what I'm reading. It seems that SUSE wants to kill openSUSE, by abandoning it... - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 12.3 x86_64 "Dartmouth" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.19 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iEYEARECAAYFAlLq7DoACgkQtTMYHG2NR9XPrACfVLtndVAsNU5XVHjHD3xOzeEU z8cAnjrkx+qGjqLiutQKX0RawUzEz+pi =jLPF -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 01/30/2014 07:20 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
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On 2014-01-30 14:08, Michael Schroeder wrote:
On Thu, Jan 30, 2014 at 02:06:36PM +0100, Henne Vogelsang wrote:
Hey,
On 30.01.2014 13:12, Michal Hrusecky wrote:
So, for now, this will be a 'community release'. This might mean less QA but also no security updates provided by SUSE!
Does this essentially mean that SUSE doesn?t want to participate in the openSUSE release anymore?
As Michal can't speak for all of SUSE, maybe it means that the openSUSE team does not want to participate in the openSUSE release anymore?
;-)
I don't understand what I'm reading. It seems that SUSE wants to kill openSUSE, by abandoning it...
openSUSE is NOT getting abandoned! The openSUSE Team @ SUSE has the prerogative to decide what they want to work on within the project, just like everybody else. So far the openSUSE Team has done most of the heavy lifting when it came to turning the crank of getting the release out the door. This work is moving into the background for them and that's fair enough. As stated above, just like everyone else they get to decide what they work on. The negative side effect of the decision is that we as a whole are not immediately prepared to fill the gap left behind. Just like we would not be prepared if the whole GNOME team would now decide to no longer do GNOME. The rest of us have to figure out a way how to move forward without the openSUSE Team doing the heavy lifting, or potentially any lifting, when it comes to turning the release crank. We can debate whether the approach taken fits within peoples' expectations or is in the spirit of the community, but that debate will not help us. The cards are on the table lets move on. How do we get the next release out the door and when is it going to be, July, November, some other date, see the "Releases going forward" thread in the factory list. Later, Robert -- Robert Schweikert MAY THE SOURCE BE WITH YOU SUSE-IBM Software Integration Center LINUX Tech Lead Public Cloud Architect rjschwei@suse.com rschweik@ca.ibm.com 781-464-8147 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
El 30/01/14 21:20, Carlos E. R. escribió:
I don't understand what I'm reading. It seems that SUSE wants to kill openSUSE, by abandoning it...
That does not make any sense.. SUSE revenue and future depends on openSUSE. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2014-01-31 16:11, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:
El 30/01/14 21:20, Carlos E. R. escribió:
I don't understand what I'm reading. It seems that SUSE wants to kill openSUSE, by abandoning it...
That does not make any sense.. SUSE revenue and future depends on openSUSE.
I know that, but the thread is so confusing that we don't know if they are really aware of that. It makes us (users hat on) afraid. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 12.3 x86_64 "Dartmouth" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.19 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iEYEARECAAYFAlLrwPIACgkQtTMYHG2NR9WW7wCePfA+CgXzYpuDEUd0Wy7imBzF 3vwAoIwKqhCteqKxjx57Wh7+oa/li2Uf =c9Nj -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Fri, Jan 31, 2014 at 10:27 AM, Carlos E. R. <carlos.e.r@opensuse.org> wrote:
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On 2014-01-31 16:11, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:
El 30/01/14 21:20, Carlos E. R. escribió:
I don't understand what I'm reading. It seems that SUSE wants to kill openSUSE, by abandoning it...
That does not make any sense.. SUSE revenue and future depends on openSUSE.
I know that, but the thread is so confusing that we don't know if they are really aware of that. It makes us (users hat on) afraid.
Carlos, I know there were a large number of emails in the last few months about this, but as I see it: The opensuse build service has been so successful that factory has ballooned in size in the last 5 years. That is true both in the quantity of packaging contributors and in the sheer number of packages in factory (see earlier emails for details). That is great from a distro perspective, but from a release manager perspective it had become overwhelming. The tools required to manage factory and the overall release were simply not scaling to the new levels of demand. The openSUSE team @ suse therefore has decided to take a 8-month period to push away from day-to-day issues and instead focus on the improvements needed in OBS and openQA to handle the requirements caused by the success of OBS. I consider it great news the OBS has been so popular that it has forced the opensuse team @ suse to retrench and focus on the core infrastructure tools. More specifically, as a packaging contributor, my main reason for supporting opensuse is the way OBS works and the way it allows for a do-apoly as far as which packages make it into the distro. ie. I want digital forensics tools in the distro, so I initiated an effort 2 years ago to make that happen. openSUSE now has a significant number of digital forenisic tools based on that effort. I love that do-apoly effect. OTOH, it means thousands of SRs to factory happen every month, if not every week. The factory/release team can simply no longer handle the volume of work with the existing infrastructure. OBS is already one of the best solutions in existence, so it is not just a matter of pulling in a new solution to handle the load. Instead OBS / openQA have to improved so they can do the work. Greg -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Quoting Greg Freemyer <greg.freemyer@gmail.com>:
On Fri, Jan 31, 2014 at 10:27 AM, Carlos E. R. <carlos.e.r@opensuse.org> wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
On 2014-01-31 16:11, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:
El 30/01/14 21:20, Carlos E. R. escribió:
I don't understand what I'm reading. It seems that SUSE wants to kill openSUSE, by abandoning it...
That does not make any sense.. SUSE revenue and future depends on openSUSE.
I know that, but the thread is so confusing that we don't know if they are really aware of that. It makes us (users hat on) afraid.
Carlos,
I know there were a large number of emails in the last few months about this, but as I see it:
The opensuse build service has been so successful that factory has ballooned in size in the last 5 years. That is true both in the quantity of packaging contributors and in the sheer number of packages in factory (see earlier emails for details).
That is great from a distro perspective, but from a release manager perspective it had become overwhelming. The tools required to manage factory and the overall release were simply not scaling to the new levels of demand.
The openSUSE team @ suse therefore has decided to take a 8-month period to push away from day-to-day issues and instead focus on the improvements needed in OBS and openQA to handle the requirements caused by the success of OBS.
This is, indeed, an excellent abstract of the current situation. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2014-01-31 16:47, Greg Freemyer wrote:
On Fri, Jan 31, 2014 at 10:27 AM, Carlos E. R. <> wrote:
I know that, but the thread is so confusing that we don't know if they are really aware of that. It makes us (users hat on) afraid.
Carlos,
I know there were a large number of emails in the last few months about this, but as I see it:
... I understand, and I thank you for the explanation, yours and from others. But the problem is that this has been badly handled in the mail list creating confusion. As some one told me recently, with a colourful expression: "Mice tremble when elephants battle." I'm tranquilized and reasured by the last recent posts, though. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 12.3 x86_64 "Dartmouth" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.19 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iEYEARECAAYFAlLryKEACgkQtTMYHG2NR9UrTACeJrDFCweV0woGmkL3SzBYPnU8 F7gAnjSnkq5gZRu8De2kLF5X/ij2J+xS =QsDJ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 01/31/2014 10:27 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
On 2014-01-31 16:11, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:
El 30/01/14 21:20, Carlos E. R. escribió:
I don't understand what I'm reading. It seems that SUSE wants to kill openSUSE, by abandoning it... That does not make any sense.. SUSE revenue and future depends on openSUSE. I know that, but the thread is so confusing that we don't know if they are really aware of that. It makes us (users hat on) afraid.
- -- Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R. (from 12.3 x86_64 "Dartmouth" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.19 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/
iEYEARECAAYFAlLrwPIACgkQtTMYHG2NR9WW7wCePfA+CgXzYpuDEUd0Wy7imBzF 3vwAoIwKqhCteqKxjx57Wh7+oa/li2Uf =c9Nj -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- Sounds to me like the factory is going through a retooling -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Hi Sasha, I will work on Monday-Tuesday in writing something that (hopefully) reduces the uncertainties as much as possible. I will recap some of the questions pointed in this thread and try to answer them. If any of you have more, please ask them. On Thursday 30 January 2014 21:34:00 Sascha Peilicke wrote:
I have to agree with Jiri, this announcement is mildly confusing at best. I would appreciate some clarity.
Saludos -- Agustin Benito Bethencourt openSUSE Team Lead at SUSE abebe@suse.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 30-01-2014 13:12, Michal Hrusecky wrote:
Hi all,
As you know we had a week-long meeting in Nuremberg. Quite a few of the things we've been working on (openQA, OBS workflow etc) were shared by now. Besides discussing features, we scheduled our work.
In the previous thread on $SUBJECT, Simon noted that going for a release in November seemed a far smarter compromise between the benefits of releasing and getting some improvements in our tool chain than skipping a release. Most of the team agreed on this right away and we'd like to go for that.
However. This does not mean the initial idea of doing a more 'relaxed' release is off the table. Planning software development is hard, planning experimentation (like the staging projects we are toying with) is impossible so we can not predict when we will be done. This means that we still intend to take those of you who stepped forward to help out with the release up on their offer. The exact nature of what we release is still to be determined and we'd like to make a more final decision on how much effort we can and will put in in August. So far it is sure that we would need some volunteer to keep eye on Factory and release milestones at least till then.
So, for now, this will be a 'community release'. This might mean less QA but also no security updates provided by SUSE! Especially if it comes to the latter case we should communicate this carefully to our users as it will be more like a slightly more stabilized milestone than a successor to openSUSE 13.1. How to call it, how to communicate and what exactly it will look like - August.
When exactly we will be fully back to working on Factory, releasing milestones, and working on the release we will hopefully be able to determine in August as well.
Thoughts? The openSUSE Team
I would like to personally take the opportunity to congratulate The openSUSE Team and their illustrious leader Agustin, for their complete and utter inability to learn how to communicate with the community! Sound a bit harsh? Well personally I feel it is completely warranted, here at FOSDEM, I have had no end of discussions with people about the "changes" happening at openSUSE. I am dumbfounded that this team that ironically has openSUSE in their title, has not learnt that their current style of communication is so damaging. Even with all the feedback after Agustin and the team's previous emails on "strategy" etc. they are un able to communicate without causing a storm of epic proportions, and alienating the entire community. I have been involved with openSUSE and its predecessors for 12 years, and I have seen some fairly atrocious communication in that time. This however takes the biscuit! The annoying part is I actually agree with the team's intention to focus on improving Factory and OBS. However, the way that it has been communicated is shocking. It's so bad that the likes of LWN, Phoronix & Linux.com to name a few have picked up the message that "SUSE is stopping it's engineers of working on openSUSE as part of their $DAYJOB", yes I'm paraphrasing but the message is clear. The fact that there is no mention of handover, staging or any form of enablement for the community to take the slack is a clear sign of piss poor planning. Sending a message that the Security and Maintenance team would not be doing their job without checking with them, is an astounding feat of incompetence. That even after drop kicking the hornet's nest, and scaring the bejeezus out of the community, there has been no clear message of what was originally intended; it has been up to our astounding community to work on calming people and stating clearly what exactly is going to happen - Many thanks Coolo for being crystal clear in what is happening with the release of 13.2, thank you Greg for clearly and simply stating what the "openSUSE" team will be doing. I am genuinely disgusted that this team has openSUSE in their title, in the last 12 months this team has done an amazing amount of damage with their cack handed communication and inability to listen and learn from the community. Please note that this is my personal view as a member of the openSUSE community. Regards, Andy -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
"agustin" == agustin benito bethencourt <abebe@suse.com> writes:
agustin> Hi Sasha, agustin> I will work on Monday-Tuesday in writing something that (hopefully) reduces agustin> the uncertainties as much as possible. I will recap some of the questions agustin> pointed in this thread and try to answer them. If any of you have more, please agustin> ask them. Before sending your reply please make sure to have your email read by as many people as possible, making sure that there are no misguiding phrases, ill phrased sentences. Have those people look where your words are not clearly establishing your intended outcome. Why do I care because for a long time now in the history of this project, there has never been a huge communication problem like we are having at the current moment. I hope you would also care as much as I do and before hitting the send key or clicking the send button, you will have enough time to have feedback, if what you have written truly conveys your intended thoughts. Togan -- Life is endless possibilities -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
* Togan Muftuoglu <toganm@opensuse.org> [02-01-14 12:36]:
"agustin" == agustin benito bethencourt <abebe@suse.com> writes:
agustin> Hi Sasha, agustin> I will work on Monday-Tuesday in writing something that (hopefully) reduces agustin> the uncertainties as much as possible. I will recap some of the questions agustin> pointed in this thread and try to answer them. If any of you have more, please agustin> ask them.
Before sending your reply please make sure to have your email read by as many people as possible, making sure that there are no misguiding phrases, ill phrased sentences. Have those people look where your words are not clearly establishing your intended outcome.
Why do I care because for a long time now in the history of this project, there has never been a huge communication problem like we are having at the current moment.
I hope you would also care as much as I do and before hitting the send key or clicking the send button, you will have enough time to have feedback, if what you have written truly conveys your intended thoughts.
And because you have cross-posted and replied to all rather than the particular list where the conversation should be comments, are disjointed, confusing and do not follow. Establish the location for the conversation and stay there and PLEASE stop cross-posting and replying to ALL. If you have a problem with that, please change the wiki about netiquette at: http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Mailing_list_netiquette#Cross_posting -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
I wrote up a long expletive-filled email and then deleted it, making me feel better about this topic, but lots of people keep asking me, in person at FOSDEM, what my statement is on this whole matter. I'd like to quote Andrew here, as he said it best so far: On Sat, Feb 01, 2014 at 05:19:23PM +0100, Andrew Wafaa wrote:
I would like to personally take the opportunity to congratulate The openSUSE Team and their illustrious leader Agustin, for their complete and utter inability to learn how to communicate with the community!
Not only is the inability to know how to communicate with the community visible here, the total lack of understanding as to what the community actually does and provides for openSUSE is visible here. I say this as an openSUSE community member who helps to provide a service (Tumbleweed) that is used by a very large subset of openSUSE users. That service, if this announcement were to be actually what happens, would be totally and completely overloaded and cause massive problems for me and the others that create it. It's enough to make me seriously consider switching to be a developer of a different community-based distro, as their members have easily convinced me that their community would never do such a foolish thing as what is happening here. I'm totally disgusted right now, and have yet to see _anything_ in these threads to make me feel better[1]. greg k-h The Slaby Team [1] Having to go off and spend 2 days to regroup in private and draft a clarifying statement is foolish and silly, further driving home the deep misunderstanding about how communities actually work. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Hi everyone, This thread is happening on the project and the factory list at the same time, with some subthreads just on one of the two lists. I suggest to keep it to factory only from now on; having only one place for the discussion would hopefully help reduce the confusion. Cheers, Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Hi, On Thursday 30 January 2014 14:06:36 Henne Vogelsang wrote:
Hey,
On 30.01.2014 13:12, Michal Hrusecky wrote:
So, for now, this will be a 'community release'. This might mean less QA but also no security updates provided by SUSE!
Does this essentially mean that SUSE doesn’t want to participate in the openSUSE release anymore?
No. This mean that after our development sprints in factory we will go back to the Release. The openSUSE Team did have, still have and will have as main focus Factory and the openSUSE. Saludos -- Agustin Benito Bethencourt openSUSE Team Lead at SUSE abebe@suse.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Hi,
The openSUSE team @ suse therefore has decided to take a 8-month period to push away from day-to-day issues and instead focus on the improvements needed in OBS and openQA to handle the requirements caused by the success of OBS.
This is, indeed, an excellent abstract of the current situation.
And we will make sure that, despite the changes we will introduce, Factory do not stop. Saludos -- Agustin Benito Bethencourt openSUSE Team Lead at SUSE abebe@suse.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Hi, On Sunday 02 February 2014 15:24:58 Agustin Benito Bethencourt wrote:
Hi,
On Thursday 30 January 2014 14:06:36 Henne Vogelsang wrote:
Hey,
On 30.01.2014 13:12, Michal Hrusecky wrote:
So, for now, this will be a 'community release'. This might mean less QA but also no security updates provided by SUSE!
Does this essentially mean that SUSE doesn’t want to participate in the openSUSE release anymore?
No. This mean that after our development sprints in factory we will go back to the Release.
The openSUSE Team did have, still have and will have as main focus Factory and the openSUSE.
... Release. Sorry.
Saludos
-- Agustin Benito Bethencourt openSUSE Team Lead at SUSE abebe@suse.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Hi, I will try to summarize the main points: 1.- openSUSE Team want an integration process driven by the community, not by us like it is now. 2.- oS Team wants to open the process and make, at the same time, design it in a way that the main tasks can be done under volunteer basis. 3.- openSUSE Team want Factory to be "usable". This will allow us, among other effects, to create a better Release for our users. 4.- To accomplish the above goals, we need to introduce some intrusive changes. Some of them require research, not just development. 4.- openSUSE Team cannot deliver a Release (as 13.1) while introducing those changes. we will keep Factory working though. 5.- openSUSE Team agrees that November is a good timing for releasing a "result", as some of you suggested. 6.- Since openSUSE Team cannot predict today how that "result/release" will look like, we defined a deadline for that definition. I share the concerns about uncertainty being negative. 7.- If some of you take over some (or all) of the tasks related with the Release, that deadline can be moved (earlier) or even erased. It would be up to those working on the Release. 8.- After this research/development phase the oS Team will go back to work on the Release as usual, hopefully focusing our efforts in "users" after improving Factory. I see this period we are heading as an opportunity to deprecate some of the technical problems we have been struggling with for some time. The more people we have focusing in the new plan, the better. This is why we take engagement in the development as one of the main topics. If some of you prefer to work on the current Release, taking over part (or all) of the work we usually do, or adapting the current process to your needs, I think we (project) also win. it would be very good news. The topics we are talking about are relevant so I think heated debates are expected and even good. I just hope that we can focus the debate on the future actions, instead of increasing the impact of the mistakes I have made in the communication area or getting too personal. I case you doubt it, let me be clear about this... I am committed to the project and my colleagues too. openSUSE Team have not changed his focus. The openSUSE Release (incl. Factory) is and will be our main focus, like in the past. On Thursday 30 January 2014 13:12:17 Michal Hrusecky wrote:
Hi all,
As you know we had a week-long meeting in Nuremberg. Quite a few of the things we've been working on (openQA, OBS workflow etc) were shared by now. Besides discussing features, we scheduled our work.
In the previous thread on $SUBJECT, Simon noted that going for a release in November seemed a far smarter compromise between the benefits of releasing and getting some improvements in our tool chain than skipping a release. Most of the team agreed on this right away and we'd like to go for that.
However. This does not mean the initial idea of doing a more 'relaxed' release is off the table. Planning software development is hard, planning experimentation (like the staging projects we are toying with) is impossible so we can not predict when we will be done. This means that we still intend to take those of you who stepped forward to help out with the release up on their offer. The exact nature of what we release is still to be determined and we'd like to make a more final decision on how much effort we can and will put in in August. So far it is sure that we would need some volunteer to keep eye on Factory and release milestones at least till then.
So, for now, this will be a 'community release'. This might mean less QA but also no security updates provided by SUSE! Especially if it comes to the latter case we should communicate this carefully to our users as it will be more like a slightly more stabilized milestone than a successor to openSUSE 13.1. How to call it, how to communicate and what exactly it will look like - August.
When exactly we will be fully back to working on Factory, releasing milestones, and working on the release we will hopefully be able to determine in August as well.
Thoughts? The openSUSE Team
-- Agustin Benito Bethencourt openSUSE Team Lead at SUSE abebe@suse.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Hi,
And because you have cross-posted and replied to all rather than the particular list where the conversation should be comments, are disjointed, confusing and do not follow. Establish the location for the conversation and stay there and PLEASE stop cross-posting and replying to ALL. If you have a problem with that, please change the wiki about netiquette at: http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Mailing_list_netiquette#Cross_posting
I hit the reply button and cross-posted. You are right. My apologies. Saludos -- Agustin Benito Bethencourt openSUSE Team Lead at SUSE abebe@suse.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
* agustin benito bethencourt <abebe@suse.com> [02-02-14 11:04]:
And because you have cross-posted and replied to all rather than the particular list where the conversation should be comments, are disjointed, confusing and do not follow. Establish the location for the conversation and stay there and PLEASE stop cross-posting and replying to ALL. If you have a problem with that, please change the wiki about netiquette at: http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Mailing_list_netiquette#Cross_posting
I hit the reply button and cross-posted. You are right. My apologies.
And I replied to list which picked up both addresses doing the same :^(. I too, apologize for my inconsideration. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Sunday, February 02, 2014 16:56:45 agustin benito bethencourt wrote:
Hi,
Hi, I'm a long time user and just wanted to chip in on this subject. From a user point of view
I will try to summarize the main points:
1.- openSUSE Team want an integration process driven by the community, not by us like it is now.
What does this even mean? As an openSUSE Team, you should be the one in charge of integration and guidance. This sounds like relinquishing control over distribution to volunteers.
2.- oS Team wants to open the process and make, at the same time, design it in a way that the main tasks can be done under volunteer basis.
Here's the thing: this process and its design should be having a clear picture before jumping coming out with the first mail and having everyone and their mother add to confusion.
3.- openSUSE Team want Factory to be "usable". This will allow us, among other effects, to create a better Release for our users.
This, by its definition of Factory existence, cannot be achieved, and shouldn't be. In the context I'm picking up from Your point, the only 'usable' scenario is a system for devs and bleeding edge, experienced users who know how to fix their system _when_ it breaks. Here you'd probably need a sizable volunteer team and that should be advertised. Besides, that 'usable' scenario is probably more fitting to Tumbleweed anyway.
4.- To accomplish the above goals, we need to introduce some intrusive changes. Some of them require research, not just development.
Again, skeleton of those should have been put forward first.
4.- openSUSE Team cannot deliver a Release (as 13.1) while introducing those changes. we will keep Factory working though.
5.- openSUSE Team agrees that November is a good timing for releasing a "result", as some of you suggested.
The definition should be put forward first.
6.- Since openSUSE Team cannot predict today how that "result/release" will look like, we defined a deadline for that definition. I share the concerns about uncertainty being negative. 7.- If some of you take over some (or all) of the tasks related with the Release, that deadline can be moved (earlier) or even erased. It would be up to those working on the Release.
I'm sorry, I don't want to offend you, but this is astonishing. Act, then react. You (pl) don't even know what the structure or plan should be, the statement simply reeks of disorganization and uncertainty. As a distro leadership/mentorship, it must be demanded more.
8.- After this research/development phase the oS Team will go back to work on the Release as usual, hopefully focusing our efforts in "users" after improving Factory.
I see this period we are heading as an opportunity to deprecate some of the technical problems we have been struggling with for some time. The more people we have focusing in the new plan, the better. This is why we take engagement in the development as one of the main topics.
What IS the new plan?
If some of you prefer to work on the current Release, taking over part (or all) of the work we usually do, or adapting the current process to your needs, I think we (project) also win. it would be very good news.
The topics we are talking about are relevant so I think heated debates are expected and even good. I just hope that we can focus the debate on the future actions, instead of increasing the impact of the mistakes I have made in the communication area or getting too personal.
I case you doubt it, let me be clear about this...
I am committed to the project and my colleagues too. openSUSE Team have not changed his focus. The openSUSE Release (incl. Factory) is and will be our main focus, like in the past.
Pardon me for jumping in on this and please forgive if I might be offending. But if you're to debate such issues in public mailing list, do know what you want to do and discuss. Kind regards, 'user'
On Thursday 30 January 2014 13:12:17 Michal Hrusecky wrote:
Hi all,
As you know we had a week-long meeting in Nuremberg. Quite a few of the things we've been working on (openQA, OBS workflow etc) were shared by now. Besides discussing features, we scheduled our work.
In the previous thread on $SUBJECT, Simon noted that going for a release in November seemed a far smarter compromise between the benefits of releasing and getting some improvements in our tool chain than skipping a release. Most of the team agreed on this right away and we'd like to go for that.
However. This does not mean the initial idea of doing a more 'relaxed' release is off the table. Planning software development is hard, planning experimentation (like the staging projects we are toying with) is impossible so we can not predict when we will be done. This means that we still intend to take those of you who stepped forward to help out with the release up on their offer. The exact nature of what we release is still to be determined and we'd like to make a more final decision on how much effort we can and will put in in August. So far it is sure that we would need some volunteer to keep eye on Factory and release milestones at least till then.
So, for now, this will be a 'community release'. This might mean less QA but also no security updates provided by SUSE! Especially if it comes to the latter case we should communicate this carefully to our users as it will be more like a slightly more stabilized milestone than a successor to openSUSE 13.1. How to call it, how to communicate and what exactly it will look like - August.
When exactly we will be fully back to working on Factory, releasing milestones, and working on the release we will hopefully be able to determine in August as well.
Thoughts? The openSUSE Team
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Sun, Feb 02, 2014 at 04:56:45PM +0100, agustin benito bethencourt wrote:
Hi,
I will try to summarize the main points:
1.- openSUSE Team want an integration process driven by the community, not by us like it is now.
Stop right here. Who is "openSUSE Team"? Who is "us"? Who is "community"? What "community" are you referring to? And why the hell are these different things?
7.- If some of you take over some (or all) of the tasks related with the Release, that deadline can be moved (earlier) or even erased. It would be up to those working on the Release.
What tasks need to be taken over? What do they involve?
8.- After this research/development phase the oS Team will go back to work on the Release as usual, hopefully focusing our efforts in "users" after improving Factory.
Who is doing this "research / development"? Why would afterwards everything to back to "as usual"?
I see this period we are heading as an opportunity to deprecate some of the technical problems we have been struggling with for some time.
What specific technical problems are you referring to?
The more people we have focusing in the new plan, the better.
What "plan"? The "plan" just seems to have changed again, dictated to "us". How do we know it's not going to change again tomorrow? How would we even know if it changes?
This is why we take engagement in the development as one of the main topics.
That sentence made no sense at all, please try to expand on it. Still totally confused and really not feeling any better at all about any of this. greg k-h Team WTF -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Hi,
1.- openSUSE Team want an integration process driven by the community, not by us like it is now.
Stop right here.
Who is "openSUSE Team"?
openSUSE Team at SUSE: https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:OpenSUSE_team
Who is "us"?
openSUSE Team at SUSE
Who is "community"? What "community" are you referring to?
openSUSE
And why the hell are these different things?
They are not. I made the distinction because I needed to refer to tasks done in 12.3 and 13.1 by this group of people from other tasks.
7.- If some of you take over some (or all) of the tasks related with the Release, that deadline can be moved (earlier) or even erased. It would be up to those working on the Release.
What tasks need to be taken over? What do they involve?
These tasks: https://progress.opensuse.org/projects/opensuse-13-1-release/roadmap?utf8=%E2%9C%93&tracker_ids[]=4&tracker_ids[]=5&tracker_ids[]=8&completed=1 The stabilization/marketing process is described there as tasks.
8.- After this research/development phase the oS Team will go back to work on the Release as usual, hopefully focusing our efforts in "users" after improving Factory.
Who is doing this "research / development"? Why would afterwards everything to back to "as usual"?
The openSUSE Team at SUSE will do this research / development together with those who want to join us. So far we will be working on: 1.- Staging projects and new workflow[1] 2.- New openQA version + integration in new workflow[2] We sent to this list a mail about each one of this two projects. You can get an overview of the target/goals/ideas through this blog post[3]
I see this period we are heading as an opportunity to deprecate some of the technical problems we have been struggling with for some time.
What specific technical problems are you referring to?
The blog post will provide you most of the answers.[3]
The more people we have focusing in the new plan, the better.
What "plan"? The "plan" just seems to have changed again, dictated to "us". How do we know it's not going to change again tomorrow? How would we even know if it changes?
The blog post will provide you most of the answers.[3]
This is why we take engagement in the development as one of the main topics.
That sentence made no sense at all, please try to expand on it.
Still totally confused and really not feeling any better at all about any of this.
Do not hesitate to ask further questions if you have them.
greg k-h
Team WTF
[1] https://progress.opensuse.org/projects/stagings/roadmap?utf8=%E2%9C%93&tracker_ids[]=4&tracker_ids[]=10&completed=1 [2] https://progress.opensuse.org/projects/openqav3/roadmap?utf8=%E2%9C%93&tracker_ids[]=4&completed=1 [3] http://lizards.opensuse.org/2013/12/11/discussing-about-the-future-of-opensu... Saludos -- Agustin Benito Bethencourt openSUSE Team Lead at SUSE abebe@suse.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Sun, Feb 02, 2014 at 08:46:36PM +0100, agustin benito bethencourt wrote:
Hi,
1.- openSUSE Team want an integration process driven by the community, not by us like it is now.
Stop right here.
Who is "openSUSE Team"?
openSUSE Team at SUSE: https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:OpenSUSE_team
Who is "us"?
openSUSE Team at SUSE
Who is "community"? What "community" are you referring to?
openSUSE
And who is that really?
And why the hell are these different things?
They are not. I made the distinction because I needed to refer to tasks done in 12.3 and 13.1 by this group of people from other tasks.
That still makes no sense to me. Why do you make such a huge distinction here that you feel the need to call it out as your first goal? You are making the "us vs. them" issue your primary stance.
8.- After this research/development phase the oS Team will go back to work on the Release as usual, hopefully focusing our efforts in "users" after improving Factory.
Who is doing this "research / development"? Why would afterwards everything to back to "as usual"?
The openSUSE Team at SUSE will do this research / development together with those who want to join us. So far we will be working on:
1.- Staging projects and new workflow[1] 2.- New openQA version + integration in new workflow[2]
We sent to this list a mail about each one of this two projects. You can get an overview of the target/goals/ideas through this blog post[3]
That link doesn't work right now. And I am well aware of the staging projects and workflow stuff that has been proposed, and while I might have my own personal opinions about them, it's nice to see people trying new things to help resolve the known issues. Anyway, you all are free to go do whatever you want, as a group that works within Novell/SuSE as that is your money and manpower to spend. But remember, you are just a "normal" member of the community like the rest of us, so to somehow dictate what is going to happen to others and their jobs (i.e. no more maintenance, longer release cycles putting more pressure and work on Tumbleweed maintainers, etc.) be expected to be told to go shove off. Just like I would be expected to be told that if I somehow said the same thing, telling others what to do and work on. That's not how this community works. Or if it really does work that way, I and others need to know that, as I sure will be rethinking my personal involvement in it. Where is the openSUSE board in this whole mess? It seems that they were not part of this announcement and given their individual responses, the non-Novell/SuSE members seem really opposed and upset as well. It's as if the board really isn't part of the guiding process for this project, and that's not a nice feeling to be perpetuating, if it really is not true. And if it is true, why the hell do we even have a board that is voted on by the community? Best of luck with your research, I'm going to go cool off for a few weeks and see what happens and take some time to research how other distros treat their community members... greg k-h Team WTF -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 02/02/2014 05:45 PM, Greg KH wrote:
On Sun, Feb 02, 2014 at 08:46:36PM +0100, agustin benito bethencourt wrote: <snip>
Where is the openSUSE board in this whole mess?
A lot of the issues being discussed are technical in nature, what is the work flow, how is factory maintained/developed, what does the release process look like? As such the board charter is to stay out of the technical stuff. This can be changed, but needs a community discussion and decision.
It seems that they were not part of this announcement and given their individual responses, the non-Novell/SuSE members seem really opposed and upset as well.
It's as if the board really isn't part of the guiding process for this project, and that's not a nice feeling to be perpetuating,
We as the board have advised on a number of occasions that the actions we were observing for the path being taken would easily be interpreted as divisive, would create uncertainty and unrest. In the end this is all we can do. As the openSUSE board we are just members of the community, we do not have the right or power, nor should we have such, to tell people what to do or to decree gag orders. We can only encourage people to be considerate of their actions and abide by our guiding principals. The openSUSE Board -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 02/02/2014 05:45 PM, Greg KH wrote: <snip>
Anyway, you all are free to go do whatever you want, as a group that works within Novell/SuSE as that is your money and manpower to spend.
Yup, I agree. The openSUSE Team certainly has the right just like any other team (GNOME, KDE, etc.) to decide what they are going to work on. The unfortunate part is that over the years the heavy lifting of the release process has mostly migrated to this team and the more or less abrupt decision to stop doing the heavy lifting puts a large burden on everyone else. But this also implies that we have an opportunity. The rest of us, that are part time contributors have the chance to stand up and release on our 8 month release cycle, that would put 13.2 in July. All we have to do is figure out how to distribute the work. Whether or not we are prepared to carry that load is what I was trying to find out in the "Releases going forward" thread on this list. Most people responding there were OK with a change to a 12 month release cycle and nobody stepped up to claim a part of the work to get a July release out the door. Yes, I was off by 2, a rather uncommon addition error in development but hey every one know I cannot count ;) .
But remember, you are just a "normal" member of the community like the rest of us, so to somehow dictate what is going to happen to others and their jobs (i.e. no more maintenance, longer release cycles putting more pressure and work on Tumbleweed maintainers, etc.) be expected to be told to go shove off.
While I am utterly disappointed in the way this is coming about at the same time I am unfortunately coming closer to the realization that Stephan has been right all along in saying "nobody cares for factory". By extension this implies nobody cares for the next release. So if we, those that maintain packages in factory and the released distribution care about the 8 month release cycle there is nothing stopping us from doing the work and getting a release out in July. If we are not willing to do the work then those who do the work get to decide, no matter how much everyone else complains. It happens that those that have been doing the work have decided on a 12 month release with 13.2 in November. It doesn't have to be that way, the rest of us can certainly release 13.2 in July if we care to do so. The question is, do we care enough and are we wiling to put in the effort? I offered the part I would be willing to take over, no one else has piped up. Later, Robert -- Robert Schweikert MAY THE SOURCE BE WITH YOU SUSE-IBM Software Integration Center LINUX Tech Lead Public Cloud Architect rjschwei@suse.com rschweik@ca.ibm.com 781-464-8147 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
I would like to add my own comments to Robert's email On 3 February 2014 00:15, Robert Schweikert <rjschwei@suse.com> wrote:
On 02/02/2014 05:45 PM, Greg KH wrote:
On Sun, Feb 02, 2014 at 08:46:36PM +0100, agustin benito bethencourt wrote:
<snip>
Where is the openSUSE board in this whole mess?
We (the openSUSE Board) received this announcement the same way everyone else did, in these mailinglists. I think this is generally a 'good thing' - as a Board we want to work in the open as much as possible, following the same model we wish to encourage for the whole project; I don't want the Board to become some secret filter stuff gets sent to before public release. I do think it's possible to work 'in the open' without including ''really scary announcements' that cause significant uncertainty for our Project. But that requires certain principles to be followed, or else stuff like this happens.
A lot of the issues being discussed are technical in nature, what is the work flow, how is factory maintained/developed, what does the release process look like? As such the board charter is to stay out of the technical stuff. This can be changed, but needs a community discussion and decision.
And I think this situation has brought to light an issue - some 'technical' decisions have 'project-wide' implications Changing how Factory is put together is a technical decision I think everyone can agree would be left to those actually working on Factory (ie. not the Board) - while it of course has a 'project wide' implication, it's mostly contained to those doing the work on Factory, and in the spirit "of those who do, decide", I think it's best that the Board keep their nose out of it. However, "the entire team that works on X is going to work on Y for 6 months" is a decision which has project-wide implications - it hits our users, it hits our other contributors, and I think there is to be a case to be made that it transcends the simplistic argument that "it's a technical decision". This decision has impacts that I'm only just starting to realize, like the fact that as part of the GNOME team I'm going to now have to help support 12.3 for longer than we had planned for. The openSUSE Team isn't the only team who potentially could have such a big impact on the Project (I can imagine the chaos us in the GNOME team could cause), but thankfully I can think of no other example where it's been the case of a team working in this way, and handling it's communication about it's decisions in this way (and I hope we'll never have one) But should they occur again, perhaps the Board should be more closely involved in those kind of situations BEFORE they hit the lists, at the very least to advise and guide those wanting to make those changes, and (probably just as useful) be involved in actually transitioning and mitigating the impact on the Project - something I think we could have done with in this case. Maybe we need a bigger stick. To be honest, I'm not sure about much on this topic, just my displeasure with the current situation and my desire to change it, quickly. This is something I expect we'll discuss at our Face 2 Face meeting this coming weekend.
It seems that they were not part of this announcement and given their individual responses, the non-Novell/SuSE members seem really opposed and upset as well.
It's as if the board really isn't part of the guiding process for this project, and that's not a nice feeling to be perpetuating,
Agreed, it's not.
We as the board have advised on a number of occasions that the actions we were observing for the path being taken would easily be interpreted as divisive, would create uncertainty and unrest. In the end this is all we can do. As the openSUSE board we are just members of the community, we do not have the right or power, nor should we have such, to tell people what to do or to decree gag orders. We can only encourage people to be considerate of their actions and abide by our guiding principals.
The openSUSE Board -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 02/03/2014 10:15 AM, Richard Brown wrote:
I would like to add my own comments to Robert's email
On 3 February 2014 00:15, Robert Schweikert <rjschwei@suse.com> wrote:
On 02/02/2014 05:45 PM, Greg KH wrote:
On Sun, Feb 02, 2014 at 08:46:36PM +0100, agustin benito bethencourt wrote: <snip>
Where is the openSUSE board in this whole mess? We (the openSUSE Board) received this announcement the same way everyone else did, in these mailinglists. I think this is generally a 'good thing' - as a Board we want to work in the open as much as possible, following the same model we wish to encourage for the whole project; I don't want the Board to become some secret filter stuff gets sent to before public release. I do think it's possible to work 'in the open' without including ''really scary announcements' that cause significant uncertainty for our Project. But that requires certain principles to be followed, or else stuff like this happens.
Maybe someone on the board would be a good person to proof read some of these announcements. I interpreted the first Email to this list completely differently to the way i was "meant to" judging by the follow up clarification emails, this was after being involved in the discussion last year. Communication between departments as poor as this has been wouldn't be tolerated in my workplace maybe given there track record of communication the team should consider getting a couple of people within the team and maybe someone outside it to proof read these emails to get them right in the first place, it would save them needing to flood on the mailing list and provide corrections once its already to late, but i would have thought that sort of thing would be common sense. Simon Lees --- openSUSE Enlightenment maintainer -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
participants (26)
-
Adrian Schröter -
agustin benito bethencourt -
Agustin Benito Bethencourt
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Alberto Planas Dominguez -
Andrew Wafaa -
Benjamin Brunner -
Carlos E. R. -
Cristian Rodríguez -
dale ritchey -
Greg Freemyer -
Greg KH -
Guido Berhoerster -
Henne Vogelsang -
Jason -
Jiri Slaby -
Marcus Meissner -
Michael Schroeder -
Michal Hrusecky -
Michal Vyskocil -
Patrick Shanahan -
Richard Brown -
Robert Schweikert -
Sascha Peilicke -
Simon -
Togan Muftuoglu -
Vincent Untz